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Source: (consider it) Thread: Heaven: The SoF Railway Enthusiasts' Thread
Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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They are trying to get a rail link to Toronto Pearson from Union Station, the main issue is getting trough the congested West Toronto Junction. That diamond is being refitted into a Flying Junction. CP's main line will go over GO Transit's Weston Subdivision.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
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quote:
Originally posted by LA Dave:
There is talk of extending the Green Line in Los Angeles to LAX. Unfortunately, when the line was built in the 1990s, it ended short of the airport, requiring a shuttle bus.

One could almost start a thread of its own about mass transit projects being stopped short of the airport. In NY, plans were drawn to extend the N subway line from its terminus at Ditmars Boulevard out to La Guardia Airport -- a distance of maybe 7 or 8 miles -- but the residents of the area vigorously opposed it and it was never done.

[ 10. February 2010, 19:09: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Gee D
Shipmate
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Coming back from church today, we saw a special being double-headed by a couple of restored diesels - a Class 44 and a Class 45. The carriages seemed to be Southern Aurora stock, built for the standard gauge connection to Melbourne in 1962.

Both diesels are Australian made, using Alco motors, with a Co-Co wheel arrangement. The Class 44, introduce in 1957, looked rather like an early GM diesel, but with a blunter nose. It used GE electrics. The Class 45 was introduced in mid 1962. It, too, used an Alco motor, but had AEC electrics. The estyle was what I understand US enthusiasts would call a cab body.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
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Very nice, too.

Here in Britain the class 44 and 45 are vintage "Peak" class diesels, which I used to see every day on my way to school on the Midland mainline.

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
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This might be of interest to those who have access to the BBC iPlayer online:

"Snowdrift at Bleat Gill":
quote:
Produced in 1955 and part of the British Transport Films collection, this short film follows the heroic actions of railway workers who rescue a snowbound train in the north Pennines.
ETA: Available until 8.09pm, Wednesday, 17 February 2010

[ 14. February 2010, 16:26: Message edited by: Wesley J ]

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Baptist Trainfan
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One of the highlights of the British Transport film unit.

The line is long closed, of course - shame!

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Coming back from church today, we saw a special being double-headed by a couple of restored diesels - a Class 44 and a Class 45. The carriages seemed to be Southern Aurora stock, built for the standard gauge connection to Melbourne in 1962.

Both diesels are Australian made, using Alco motors, with a Co-Co wheel arrangement. The Class 44, introduce in 1957, looked rather like an early GM diesel, but with a blunter nose. It used GE electrics. The Class 45 was introduced in mid 1962. It, too, used an Alco motor, but had AEC electrics. The estyle was what I understand US enthusiasts would call a cab body.

Looks like a GM! Looks like a GM! [Disappointed]

No, no, no, with that blunt nose and flush-mounted headlight, it most definitely looks like an ALCO PA unit.

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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
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Mild interjection to say that the Class 44s were, in fact, ALCO-design "World Units" based on the freight version,the FA . The nose is too snub to be a PA.

Just establishing my non-steam geekdom.

And, oddly enough, the British Type 44s had a nose that was not that far from the same shape.

[ 14. February 2010, 20:58: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]

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It's Not That Simple

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Gee D
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The 42 Class were GM based.

Definitely not the PA unit shown on:

link

and also looks a bit different to the FA unit I've been able to trace - the headlamp is not the same, and the corners of the bonnet look more rounded. Another difference is the wheel arrangement. The 44 class were Co-Co's whereas as far as I can pick up, the PAs aere A1A-A1A. Can't get any details for the FA.

The bonnet is a lot shorter than the UK Class 44, and of course, the NSW had only 1 bonnet.

[Fixed link-hope that's the page you wanted!]

[ 15. February 2010, 00:29: Message edited by: jedijudy ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Horseman Bree
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Sorry, I must have misread Wikipedia
which says :

quote:
ALCO's "World Locomotive" the DL500 (introduced in 1953) originated as a newly designed demonstrator based on the FA-2.
And the Australian manufacturer and various railfan sites asy the same thing.

I daresay the actual metal body-stampings weren't precisely identical to US production machines. The buffers do kind of get in the way!

And my comment on the British type 44/45 was just a passing resemblance, not an exact twinship. You can hardly say that they were modelled after the EMD slant-nose!

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It's Not That Simple

Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
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Now had time (amongst earning an honest living) to find this on Wiki:

Variants of the ALCO "World Locomotive" saw service in Australia where it was built under licence by A.E. Goodwin Ltd. A two cab design went into service on the standard gauge New South Wales Government Railways as the 44 class,[3] and both a single cab and double cab design went into service on the 5 ft 3 in (1,600 mm) broad gauge South Australian Railways as the 930 class.[4]

But the 44 has a different wheel arrangement to both the FA and the PA. The 2 cabs did not mean 2 bonnets. The B end was bluff.

The 42 has the GM EMD slant nose, and was very stylish. The 44s seemed to see rather more use though. By the time of the 422 and 442 classes, the bodies look the same - a semi-French style, with slantback windows for sun shelter. I appreciated your comments about the UK 44 and (no doubt) the 45 class as well. To an untutored eye, they are identical.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Lord Pontivillian
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quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
This might be of interest to those who have access to the BBC iPlayer online:

"Snowdrift at Bleat Gill":
quote:
Produced in 1955 and part of the British Transport Films collection, this short film follows the heroic actions of railway workers who rescue a snowbound train in the north Pennines.
ETA: Available until 8.09pm, Wednesday, 17 February 2010
That was quite splendid, especially seeing the snowplough at work. I was watching a Ivo Peters video today, it was also splendid as it was looking at the Narrow Gauge railways I know and love.

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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.

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LA Dave
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Yes, our Canadian Alco enthusiasts, SPK and HB, are correct about the Class 44 being Alco derived. For me, it was the windshield framing, identical to the Alco PA and FA units.

And, speaking of trains stranded in snow, I doubt that British Rail ever had a job as tough as did the Southern Pacific in extracting the passenger train City of San Francisco from a Sierra Nevada blizzard in January 1952.

The train was trapped for six days in the Donner Pass. For those non-Californians who may not know the story, the Pass is named for the Donner Party, which had the misfortune to spend part of the winter there. When the food ran out, members of the party had to partake of their fellows.

Fortunately, the passengers on the City of San Francisco were rescued before they had to resort to cannibalism.

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Gee D
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There's never been any doubt that the 44s were Alco based, but there was rather more local design content than in some other places. Wheel arangement is one example.

The NSW Govt Railways and its successor, the State Rail Authority, for many years ran parallel classes based on GM and Alco - later MLW - designs. This policy spread the available work over local manufacturers, located in different areas. Kept the owners and the unions happy. The classes could run in multiple, regardless of original design, although this was uncommon practice. Only the electric locos, and of course the diesel-hydraulic shunters, were unable to do so.

In my last post, I should have said that the class 44 and 45 UK locos appeared identical to my untutored eye, to make my meaning less ambiguous.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
...
Just establishing my non-steam geekdom.

And, oddly enough, the British Type 44s had a nose that was not that far from the same shape.

I can do non-steam too!

The British Class 44s were the original ‘Peaks’, all 10 being named after British mountains. I never saw them when still owned by British Rail, but have seen one or two as preserved locos. The numerous 45s were also referred to as ‘Peaks’, and so were the 46s. These latter were 56 diesel locos allocated to Gateshead (nr. Newcastle) and Plymouth Laira, and in their heyday were for the North East – South West express passenger services, though I also remember them from Sunderland station when they worked the ‘Brian Mills Catalogue’ parcels trains (sometimes it would be a ‘45’ or even a Class ‘40’). Classes 40, 44, 45 & 46 were all of the 1Co-Co1 wheel arrangement.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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I'm just about old enough to remember Peaks rushing through Northfield while I was watching with my gradpa. They were soon replaced by 47s and 50s though.

I do love being able to see them at preserved lines though. My mother can't understand why I want to go to diesel-only gala events, but for me those were the trains of my youth! I have the same connection to "tractors", "choppers", "peaks" and "hoovers" as my dad has to "lizzies", "jubes" and "streaks" [Smile]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Enoch
Shipmate
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Yes, the original Peaks were numbered in the D1 series. Both sets of Peaks in the early years were linked with the Midland Division.

The 40s were numbered in the D200 series. I saw a brand new D201 go through Peterborough light on its first journey to London in April 1957. Before it was electrified, they were used quite a lot on the Western Division, as was the original blue Deltic, which had quite different shaped noses from the later East Coast ones.

One thing that might surprise US shipmates, is that apart from shunters and 20s, UK practice has usually been to have cabs at both ends. The system just is not designed round single ended diesels that have to be turned, and slave motor units that can't be drive at all.

I'm really a steam person myself, but does anyone else remember the Fell engine?

The line in the snow clearing film had a magnificent spindly iron bridge high up in the Pennines, which sadly I never saw in the flesh, only in picture.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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Why the change since steam engines were single-ended?

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Horseman Bree
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Making locos double-ended got rid of the need for all those turntables and the running of light engines out to wyes, and sped up the turnaround of trains in stub-end stations.

Even in Canada, most freight lash-ups are run with a cab at each end of the group. VIA is almost the only operation you see running elephant-style, and that is because a) the runs are so long, and the second unit may have to be placed as lead unit somewhere in between the terminals (since the units are so decrepit) and b) the whole train, loco and all, is run around a loop (Halifax) or wye (Vancouver) to go back again.

Sorry, forgot to add that Bulleid's Leader class were built double-ended for the above reasons - getting rid of the tender allowed for quick reversals - not that the leaders were actually much good at running in the first place!

[ 16. February 2010, 19:55: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]

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It's Not That Simple

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Metapelagius
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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Why the change since steam engines were single-ended?

Except for the ones which aren't .....

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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.

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Lord Pontivillian
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
The line in the snow clearing film had a magnificent spindly iron bridge high up in the Pennines, which sadly I never saw in the flesh, only in picture.

Do you mean Belah viaduct? I have a picture of it in front of me! Sadly it was demolished after closure of the line. Have you seen Meldon Viaduct near Okehampton, it is quite similar.

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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.

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Enoch
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Not to mention Crumlin, which must be somewhere near yourself.

Another one I'd like to have seen - though smaller it was in a very fine setting - was at Staithes in north Yorkshire.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Making locos double-ended got rid of the need for all those turntables and the running of light engines out to wyes, and sped up the turnaround of trains in stub-end stations.

Even in Canada, most freight lash-ups are run with a cab at each end of the group. VIA is almost the only operation you see running elephant-style, and that is because a) the runs are so long, and the second unit may have to be placed as lead unit somewhere in between the terminals (since the units are so decrepit) and b) the whole train, loco and all, is run around a loop (Halifax) or wye (Vancouver) to go back again.

Sorry, forgot to add that Bulleid's Leader class were built double-ended for the above reasons - getting rid of the tender allowed for quick reversals - not that the leaders were actually much good at running in the first place!

Here in the Corridor we now get GE Genesis units mostly.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Lord Pontivillian
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Not to mention Crumlin, which must be somewhere near yourself.

Aye. I used to go under where it should be, when I was in college. At least Hengoed viaduct still stands, sadly it doesn't carry trains unlike the one below my house. It must have been amazing crossing the valley on Crumlin Viaduct [Frown]

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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.

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LA Dave
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SPK: On Amtrak, the practice in some areas has been to use a de-engined FP40 at one end of the train with active controls to the locomotive. This provides the crew with better protection in the event of a crash (as compared to a crew cab in a passenger car). In addition, the FP40 has room for baggage.
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Enoch
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I've sometimes wondered what the speed limit was on Crumlin and whether it swayed when trains went over it. I think it had a passenger service until somewhere around 1964.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Horseman Bree
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Going back (briefly) to the discussion of mixed-gauge track, I offer this somewhat overloaded train in Pakistan.

Is the wider gauge "standard" or 5'3" im Pakistan?

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It's Not That Simple

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
[...] in Pakistan. [...]

Bangladesh, Sir. Says so if you scroll down. [Big Grin]

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Horseman Bree
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OK, wrong side of subcontunent.

Now, 4'8.5" or 5'3" ?

And, tangentially, why was 5'3 chosen anywhere? Doesn't seem to offer any useful advantage over standard gauge.

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It's Not That Simple

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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Most Subcontinental railways are Broad Gauge, 5' 6". Wiki says this was chosen in the 1800s as it was thought better for stability in monsoon winds. As the rail system on the subcontinent doesn't interchange with any standard gauge lines, this isn't an issue.

The inner tracks are not Standard Gauge but Metre Gauge, the most common narrow gauge. Again the subcontinent has lots of these lines, built on the cheap during the Raj. In India itself Indian Railways has had a policy of converting metre-gauge lines to broad gauge for years.

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Horseman Bree
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OK, so how did the railways of India/Pakistan/BD come to be metre gauge instead of 3'6", which was the Empire standard for narrow gauge in all sorts of places, particularly Africa (while giving the obligatory nod to Newfoundland and the Yukon).

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It's Not That Simple

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Horseman Bree
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Double-posting to add that the expereince in Nfld. was that a train COULD be blown off the track by serious winds. There was actually a railway man stationed at, I believe, Gaff Topsails, with orders to stop all trains if the wind blew at more than a specified speed in that area.

And, no, the winds were not related to the monsoon! Storms coming in off the North Atlantic were quite adequate for the destruction of trains, thankewverymuch.

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It's Not That Simple

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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I believe that cost was an overriding factor in choosing a gauge, and Metre Gauge was cheaper than Cape Gauge.

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Enoch
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Indeed trains can be caught by serious winds. As Scotland's second greatest poet immortally wrote.

"Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silv'ry Tay
Alas! I am very sorry to say
That ninety lives have been taken away
On the last Sabbath day of 1879.
Which will be remembered for a very long time."

I have heard that the bridge at Staithes (see above) had an anemometer, and services would be suspended if the wind got to powerful.

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Shubenacadie
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According to 'Narrow Gauge Steam' by P.J.G. Ransom, the committee set up in 1870 to advise on the gauge of secondary lines in India was divided between the merits of 3'6'' and 2'9'', so the Viceroy chose 3'3'' as a compromise, and then 'since the introduction of the metric system to India was supposedly in prospect' changed it to the almost identical 1 metre. A quick glance at the rest of the book suggests that 3'6'' wasn't yet an established standard at that time (and also that the metre gauge was established in East Africa in the 1890s so that Indian equipment could be used).

As for 5'3'', 'The Victorian Railway and How it Evolved', by the same author, quotes the Board of Trade inspector who recommended it as saying that he regarded Brunel and the Stephensons as too committed to their favoured gauges, and that the other engineers that he consulted favoured 5' to 5'6'' ('for the convenience of the machinery... or for speed or safety'). I think an Irish engineer may have been responsible for the use of 5'3'' in Australia.

I seem to remember reading that the 'Indian' gauge has now reached its first contact with the standard-gauge world, with the opening of a link between the Pakistani and Iranian systems in the past few years. (I wonder if they'll ever link up with China -- a trans-Himalayan railway would be an interesting feat of engineering, although I suspect there might be too much tunnelling for it to be a very scenic journey).

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daviddrinkell
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Indeed trains can be caught by serious winds. As Scotland's second greatest poet immortally wrote.

"Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silv'ry Tay
Alas! I am very sorry to say
That ninety lives have been taken away
On the last Sabbath day of 1879.
Which will be remembered for a very long time."

I have heard that the bridge at Staithes (see above) had an anemometer, and services would be suspended if the wind got to powerful.

I don't know how widely the term 'wreckhouse wind' is used, but Wreckhouse is a place in Western Newfoundland that is prone to high winds. In the days of the Newfoundland Railway, the conductors used to consult a local farmer who apparently had something of a sixth sense when it came to forecasting foul weather. One day, the conductor neglected to consult the Oracle...and the train was blown off the line.

[ 19. February 2010, 03:01: Message edited by: daviddrinkell ]

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Darllenwr
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There was also the incident at Owencarrow on the Irish narrow gauge, when a train was blown off the rails as it crossed a viaduct. One of the carriages ended up upside down on the valley floor, something like thirty feet below rail level. The episode is recorded in the same chapter of "Red for Danger" by LTC Rolt as the Tay Bridge disaster.

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Sioni Sais
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Up in the North-East of England I believe there were a number of turntables with walls (usually made of sleepers) around them. These were in place because the wind could get hold of a locomotive nicely balanced on the turntable and spin the thing!

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Alaric the Goth
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The most famous was that at Hawes Junction, now known as ‘Garsdale’ on the Settle-Carlisle line, where the engine that had come through on the Wensleydale branch from Northallerton (NER) or Hawes (MR) was turned. A North Eastern BTP 0-4-4 tank engine was being turned one very windy day (think it was late 19th century), and in this exposed location the wind caught it and spun it round at high speed! So a curtain of old sleepers was put round the ‘table to stop it happening again.

The turntable in question was saved by the K&WVR and moved into the old Keighley turntable pit some years ago. Alas it has no wall of sleepers around it now! I will go past it this evening on my first train home.

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Enoch
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It wouldn't need even to have been spinning very fast. Could any of us manage to stop a turntable with an engine on it, that had even begun to have trundle round fairly slowly?

Turntables had to be well balanced. Although some were driven by being connected to the engine's vacuum pump, quite a lot were pushed round by hand. Some even had little brick ridges round the edge of the pit to push against with the feet.

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Wesley J

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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Double-posting to add that the expereince in Nfld. was that a train COULD be blown off the track by serious winds. [...]

Happens in Europe too, as shown here: Train blown off track in Switzerland.

From what I gather, it was in a valley known for, what they call, occasional 'rotating winds', whatever that may be. Luckily, the train was empty at the time and the driver in the leading motor coach, which, as heavier, remained on the track (1 metre narrow gauge).

On a funnier or just plain weird note, I've recently stumbled across some rather strange images, here and here. There appears to be a 2010 Geneva International Circus Festival, and so they redesigned one of the ICN intercity tilting trains; this particular unit seems to be named 'Grock', after an apparently famous Swiss clown [Paranoid] , and looks slightly less threatening here (dunno why the pic's got an 'https' URL, really.)

I think they should've given it a thorough cleaning before showing it off - and not just the snout. But perhaps their sense of humour has its limits. Literally.

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Horseman Bree
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My MacAfee gave me a security warning when I tried to click in on your last link.

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Wesley J

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Could it be that the site hasn't got a valid https security certificate? Sorry about this - I'm investigating. [Confused]

[ 20. February 2010, 14:25: Message edited by: Wesley J ]

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Enoch
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The faces look like something from the Rev Awdry, 'Grock the Swiss Engine.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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Speaking of Rev. Awdry, he did write a story where Gordon got blown around on the the Turntable. [Smile]

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Replying to Enoch:

Skipton to Colne (active pressure group working to reinstate this: it's a comparatively short stretch of line but a vital link between Yorkshire and East Lancashire)

The Burscough curves linking Southport-Wigan to Ormskirk-Preston: a serious proposal has been made but how soon if ever it might go ahead is the question.

The Liverpool -Edge Hill to Bootle line via Tue Brook and Walton: at present carries freight traffic to the docks but could also be a valuable urban commuter line. It would be a better use of resources than the proposed (but still clinging-on-for-life) Merseytram scheme.

Two Yorkshire towns which could be reconnected to the rail system are Otley and Ripon. I'm not sure how much infrastructure survives in either case, but if either of them were in the South East they would never have lost their trains.

The line from Starbeck to Ripon was considered a feasible reopening in the late-1980s when I lived in Ripon. My list of idiotic closures would be a follows:

Oxford-Cambridge
Carlisle-Hawick-Edinburgh
Peterboro-Boston-Grimsby
Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton
Beverley-York
Sheffield-Banbury via the GCR
The LSWR line between Plymouth and Exeter
Carmarthen - Aberystwyth
Malton-Pickering-Whitby or Scarborough-Whitby

PD

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Horseman Bree
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I told you, SPK, those Brits don't realise what they're talking about!

Malton - Pickering - Whitby makes quite good sense for GO trains, if they'd just extend it westward to Pearson.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Presumably they'd have to build a tunnel under the North Sea, join it to railways in Europe and ultimately the Trans-Siberian. But what happens between Vladivostock and Vancouver?
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Enoch
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I know this is an unpopular view, but I've never been convinced by the claims of the Great Central London extension. It was a splendid achievement, but it was the last main line to be built, it didn't go through any much after Leicester, and Nottingham and Leicester had perfectly good lines already. The part of the Great Central that there's a better claim for is the former electrified route over Woodhead. I would add the line round east Lincolnshire to the list, and possibly March to Sleaford as well.

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Horseman Bree
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Baptist Trainfan: If you check the map of Ontario, you will see that there is an almost straight line between the old Toronto airport at Malton, and the towns (in that order) of Pickering and Whitby. Joining them by a commuter-rail line would make a certain amount of sense, and extending that line across northern Toronto to Pearson International Airport would make a lot more sense.

Not that it's gonna happen.

Just pointing out that name-lists can have their confusions, thanks to those Empire-builders a cenury-and-a-bit ago.

Sorry, forgot to add that Scarborough-Whitby exists already.

[ 22. February 2010, 15:10: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]

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It's Not That Simple

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