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Source: (consider it) Thread: Heaven: The SoF Railway Enthusiasts' Thread
Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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Reminds of a lady in my church and the Weymouth Tramway (see above).

She had gone to visit her daughter and son-in-law in Weymouth and went to the Baptist Church on Sunday morning. They parked on the Quay as they often had before. When they went back to the car it wasn't there - it had been towed away! This was the day the Tramway was last used - it hadn't had a train along it for years, so they had thought they were safe!

At least the rails were still there; I assume they had been removed in Vancouver.

LTC Rolt recalled a journey on the Talyllyn Railway just before preservation (about 1950). When they got to Abergynolwyn at the end of the journey, he walked forward to see the locomotive, only to find it had disappeared. He could see a couple of grooves that had been crushed in the long grass and followed the loco to the end of the track, which hadn't been used for years. When he asked the teenage driver what he was doing, he said that "He wanted to see if the rails were still there". Judging that they must be, he accepted a ride on the footplate back to Abergynolwn.

Of course trains travel on this stretch of line today - hopefully the track has been renewed!

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Angloid
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# 159

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Readers of The Tablet might be interested in this week's article on the affinity between railways and the clergy. I'd link to it except that it is for subscribers only.

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Ariel
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# 58

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I wonder if anyone could help to identify a train I saw today. It was an old-fashioned kind of train with Pullman carriages (the sort with table lamps), each carriage had a large scalloped cartouche on the outside with a different placename. The only one I remember is Alnwick (sp?). Interestingly, one carriage was labelled with the url of the Orient Express. The engine at the front was called "The Queen's Messenger" and the engine at the back "The Royal Sovereign".

This went through Oxford station this evening, not at a particularly fast pace. Could this have been the royal train, or was it something else?

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Baptist Trainfan
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Yes, this was the Northern Belle which is the sister train to the Orient Express - though nothing like as all! It's carriages date from the early 70s but have been retrofitted to look antique! It was on a day trip from Sheffield and Derby to Oxford and Waddesdon Manor.

I'd love to travel on it (it does come to Ipswich sometimes), or even better the genuine 1930s "Orient Express" British Pullman. But it does cost about £250 per head ...

Oh yes, the engines are the very ones used on the Royal Train.

[ 04. June 2010, 19:25: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Ariel
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Thank you!! How interesting - I knew someone here would have the answer!
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Zappa
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But it does cost about £250 per head ...

Ouch!

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Aethelstan
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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But it does cost about £250 per head ...

Ouch!
No worries: you can easily get Class 67 haulage any weekday on an ordinary service train for much less and the stock is in the proper blue and grey livery. Same rancid air-con Mk 2s of course.

[ 05. June 2010, 21:12: Message edited by: Aethelstan ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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I think this lot are better .... and then there's the famous north-south express operated by Arriva between Holyhead and Cardiff, reputedly the best food on British service trains.
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Ariel
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# 58

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In the light of this, I looked up the Orient Express. I've always fancied the route - London to Paris, through Europe to Vienna, Prague and ending up in Istanbul - but (brace yourself, Zappa) it'll have to wait until I win the lottery.
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Jengie jon

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I began pricing my dream rail holiday journey, which does not go outside the UK. It is easily over £500 and it uses standard services most of the way. Admittedly there is some first class travel in that (actually as it is holiday I may upgrade the whole to first class where I can) and includes one if not two sleepers. Admittedly it would cost less if I did not have to include London in the itinerary but to get one of the journeys I now have to (used to be able to use Preston instead).

Oh for the first time I have established it is technically possible to do.

Jengie

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Baptist Trainfan
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No! No! No! You can still buy Rail Rover Tickets - not that National Rail exactly shout about them! And they even do First Class ones!
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Zappa
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I'll have to pass on the Orient Express [Frown] . Class 67 haulage looks feasible. Actually every time I think about being environmentally correct and catching a long-distance train my environmentally incorrect love of driving says nerny nerny nerny you'd miss me, and I turn the key in the ignition. But one day, when I no longer have a licence ...

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
In the light of this, I looked up the Orient Express.

How does the Orient Express get to Madeira??

[Edit: stray code]

[ 07. June 2010, 23:09: Message edited by: Zappa ]

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
In the light of this, I looked up the Orient Express.

How does the Orient Express get to Madeira??
In "On Railways"* P.R. Ransome-Wallis mentions a cog railway from Funchal to Monte on that island. It doesn't appear to have been the sort of thing the International Waggon-Beds Company would ever have been interested in though.

*Get this book if you possibly can!


[Edit: even strayer code]

[ 07. June 2010, 23:10: Message edited by: Zappa ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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I think that this gives you the answer - though I don't know the date.

Sounds like you have to stow away in a container to get there - not quite the de luxe image one might have imagined!

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Gee D
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The real question is whether Madeira gets to the Orient Express.

And could someone please unpack "rancid air-con Mk 2s"? I do know that late series of Mark 2 carriages had airconditioning, but not all did. I can't understand the inclusion of rancid in the phrase.

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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P.S. The original Wagons-Lits Company did have a hotel subsidiary. But they never owned Reid's - at least, I don't think so.
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The real question is whether Madeira gets to the Orient Express.

And could someone please unpack "rancid air-con Mk 2s"? I do know that late series of Mark 2 carriages had airconditioning, but not all did. I can't understand the inclusion of rancid in the phrase.

A (perhaps fortuitously) dim memory is of a vile smell, probably from the brakes, coming through the a/c for some carriages a few decades ago. These could be the culprits. It seemed to be worse on sunny days, which would be when the a/c was in use.

btw, Baptist Trainfan, I spotted that entry about Reid's Hotel, but it was pretty boring and not much to do with railways! I had an idea of a rack-and-pinion railway with sleeper and restaurant cars. [Biased]

[ 06. June 2010, 22:34: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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I seem to remember that vile smell coming on Mk. 3s when the High-Speed Trains first came out. They don't do it now - they must have changed the material the brakes are made of.

I like the idea of a rack-railway with sleeping cars etc. But wouldn't you tend to fall out of bed when the gradient got too steep? And wouldn't the food slide off the tables in the dining car?

I wonder what they do on the Glacier Express in Switzerland (St Moritz - Zermatt)? Part of that is rack and they must have a diner.

[ 06. June 2010, 23:14: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Gee D
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A very pleasant diner on the Glacier Expresses - and stunning views while you eat. There's no real problem with plates; the wine glasses have tilted bases, and you just spin them around as necessary. Or you can simply empty them below the danger level....

[ 07. June 2010, 04:19: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Wesley J

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# 6075

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
A very pleasant diner on the Glacier Expresses - and stunning views while you eat. There's no real problem with plates; the wine glasses have tilted bases, and you just spin them around as necessary. Or you can simply empty them below the danger level....

And you can buy 'em as well, the glasses: see here (couldn't find a link in English).

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Darllenwr
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# 14520

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The foul smell on the HST's was indeed down to hot brakes. The cause of the problem was simple enough ~ the cabin air intakes are at low level, and thus inhaled all the line-side smells, including hot brakes. The solution was just as simple ~ a valve that closes off the air intakes when the brakes are applied.

As I am sat at my desk in work at the moment, I cannot refer to any suitable books to give you a source for the information, but I think that the modifications were made when carriages came in for refurbishing.

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The real question is whether Madeira gets to the Orient Express.

And could someone please unpack "rancid air-con Mk 2s"? I do know that late series of Mark 2 carriages had airconditioning, but not all did. I can't understand the inclusion of rancid in the phrase.

A (perhaps fortuitously) dim memory is of a vile smell, probably from the brakes, coming through the a/c for some carriages a few decades ago. These could be the culprits. It seemed to be worse on sunny days, which would be when the a/c was in use.

btw, Baptist Trainfan, I spotted that entry about Reid's Hotel, but it was pretty boring and not much to do with railways! I had an idea of a rack-and-pinion railway with sleeper and restaurant cars. [Biased]

I do not remember rancid brakes on the late Mk2 stock, but most of the mileage I did on Mk2d stock was in Ireland where they were fitted with vacuum rather than air brakes. That said, I do not remember and stenchfrom their air braked English counterparts.

However, both Mk3a and Mk3b had their problems until the original brake pads were used up - about 2007, IIRC.

PD

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LA Dave
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# 1397

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I have a question about transatlantic usage and the term "Pullman."

In the United States (and, I suppose, Canada), a "Pullman car" was a sleeper. The car was owned by the Pullman Company and was leased to various railroads. The cars could have sections (where a two seat pair, facing each other, would convert at night into a lower and upper berth, curtained off from the aisle) or various compartments (ranging from very small "roomettes" to larger compartments).

It appears that in British usage, a "Pullman" carriage is simply more luxurious than standard a railroad carriage. Is that correct?

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Angloid
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I think so, yes. Probably because shorter distances meant sleeping cars were comparatively rare in the UK (they are even rarer now).

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Baptist Trainfan
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Well, not quite ... "Pullman" cars were originally owned by the Pullman company and I think the first of them, on the Midland Railway, were sleeping cars, used on its new route to Scotland via the Settle and Carlisle Railway.

But most Pullman cars were indeed comfortable day coaches, with food and drink served at one's seat (in other trains you had to leave your compartment and go to the dining car to eat).

Later on things got complicated: the Southern Railway had the all-Pullman "Brighton Belle" (and other "Belles") and also the "Golden Arrow", not to mention single Pullman cars in many of its EMU sets. But the sleepers on the London-Paris "Night Ferry" were Wagons-Lits, not Pullmans.

I think the British Pullman company was disbanded long ago and sold to the railway companies and, later, British Railways. I remember travelling on the Kings Cross - Sheffield (Victoria) "Master Cutler" in about 1963, travelling in first class car "Robin" ( still in existence). I also managed a trip in the somewhat fading splendour of the last days of the "Brighton Belle". Possibly the best-known "modern" Pullmans were the Blue Pullmans on the Midland and Western routes - as a child, I found them dazzlingly modern and exciting (although apparently their riding left a lot to be desired).

There were some Pullman cars on BR into the 70s (?and 80s), using a reversed grey/blue livery. But the glamour had gone.

Some carriages still exist; no just the 30s varriages on the "Orient Express" but the 1960s Metro-Cammell cars, often used on private charters.

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Zappa
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
A (perhaps fortuitously) dim memory is of a vile smell, probably from the brakes, coming through the a/c for some carriages a few decades ago. These could be the culprits.

I love the metallic smell of hot brakes on any vehicle, but I presume this was different?

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Gee D
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IIRC, Pullman in the UK started as a subsidiary of Pullman in the US. It then became owned by Lord Dalziel. Wagons-Lit were the principal equivalent on continental Europe, and Dalziel bought it as well. The joint ownership was kept very quiet.

Ultimately, both were in the ownership of Thomas Cook, and that passed into Govt ownership with the nationalisation of UK railways. Wagons-Lit was hived off. In the UK, there was a new batch of loco-hauled Pullman carriages built in the early 60s, used primarily on the former LNER lines. They rode quite well. There were then the Blue Pullmans used on Midland and Western services. They were multiple units, and rode badly. Finally, there was the Manchester Pullman service which ran into the 80s - perhaps later. IIRC, this used an adaptation of Mark 2 stock.

Both operations mirrored the US practice. Carriages were owned and staffed by Pullman, but run by the railways/railroads. A premium over the standard fare was paid to Pullman. US Pullman ran into trouble under the anti-trust laws, as it both manufactured the carriages and operated them. It was forced by court action to split.

Wagons-Lit ceased operationing its own stock in the early 70s, and became simply a catering service for rail and air, and provided staff for sleeping carriages.

Wagons-Lit did not operate in Germany, except for international travel. The equivalent was Mitropa. As part of the Versailles Treaty, Mitropa was limited to internal German services.

From memory (no books here) UK Pullman only operated day trains, and no sleepers. Wagons-Lit started with sleepers, lounge and dining cars. Under Dalziel's control, it took on day cars as well. Seating in 1st class was 1+1; in 3rd it varied from 1+2 to 2+2 depending on the journey. There were even narrow gauge Pullmans in Switzerland. Despite the ban otherwise, Mitropa also operated narrow gauge in Switzerland, saying that the ban only covered standard gauge.

We've done the London-Paris and reverse, and both Zurich-Venice and Zurich-Vienna, trips on the VSOE - no night travel. It's very comfortable and in the pre-Chunnel days, the easiest crossing. It is expensive but is a holiday treat.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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Pullman in the US was broken up by anti-trust order in 1948. The shareholders kept the car manufacturer, Pullman-Standard, and the Pullman Company was sold off as a co-operative to the railroads who used the cars. Most railroads bought the cars that ran over their lines regularly and leased them back to Pullman.

Decent Pullman service was on the way out in the early 1960's. The Super Chief on the Santa Fe started to carry coaches in 1958* as did the 20th Century Limited on the New York Central. The Broadway Limited (Pennsy) and the Panama Limited (Illinois Central) ceased to operate in 1968.

*The Super Chief always ran in tandem with its all-coach companion, the El Capitan. Even when they were separate trains on the timetable, they ran as two sections of the same train when operating over the road. The El Capitan had the new Hi-Level cars which were extremely popular, and overflow from these cars were added as coaches to the Super Chief. In any event sleeper traffic was declining.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I love the metallic smell of hot brakes on any vehicle . . .

I remember as late as the late 1970s working in Philadelphia and commuting on the Reading Railroad (yes, the one memorialized by Monopoly: "Take a ride on the Reading; if you pass Go collect $200").

The cars were not air conditioned, and in the summer all coach windows were thrown wide open. There was always a metallic odor in the air. I wasn't sure if it came from the brakes or from the electric motors that propelled the cars.

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Gee D
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Thank you SPK. I could remember the event and not the year.

It's a decision I find hard to understand. It's not as though Pullman was the only car builder in the US at that time. iIt was not in a position to force railroads into buying from it alone. In fact, as I recall the history, most railroads placed orders with several builders. Of cours, I have no US anti-trust experience or knowledge. It' just that I don't think the action would be successful here under analagous legislation.

[ 08. June 2010, 04:53: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Angloid
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There were also the Pullman cars that ran on the Metropolitan line of London Underground. Which makes the mythical comments of Tory politicians travelling on the Tube ('where is the dining car?') slightly easier to understand.

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Presbymethegationalist
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Thank you SPK. I could remember the event and not the year.

It's a decision I find hard to understand. It's not as though Pullman was the only car builder in the US at that time. iIt was not in a position to force railroads into buying from it alone. In fact, as I recall the history, most railroads placed orders with several builders. Of cours, I have no US anti-trust experience or knowledge. It' just that I don't think the action would be successful here under analagous legislation.

Pre-1948, the Pullman Company owned and supplied its own sleeping cars for Pullman service. Pullman cars were property of the Pullman Company, not the railroad. They were treated as leased cars just like any other interchange.

As the Pullman Company was jointly owned with Pullman-Standard, the car builder, Pullman almost always bought sleepers from P-S. The other builders were American Car & Foundry and Budd, but they weren't having as much luck selling sleepers to the Pullman pool.

Pullman also supplied the stewards and conductor for the sleepers. The traditional split was that the first-class fare went to the railroad while the Pullman room charge went to Pullman.

After 1948 Pullman was much more varied in its cars as it was the member railroads who did the purchasing for it.

Actually, Budd products have a better reputation than Pullman-Standard ones, they have lasted far longer.

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Gee D
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# 13815

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Thanks SPK . I know the facts, but I'm just very doubtful that the cse against Pullman would be successful here on those facts. And the disclaimer about not knowing the operation of US anti-trust laws remains....

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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AIUI in the US obtaining Monopoly A by outlasting out your competitors is legal, trying to obtain a second Monopoly B by leveraging monopoly A is not.

The Pullman Company had a legitimately acquired monopoly on sleeping car service in the US. It forced out its last major competitor, the Wagner Company in the early 1910's. The New York Central was one of the last holdouts against Pullman.

The 1940 suit alleged that Pullman was attempting to monopolize the purchase of lightweight sleeping cars through the Pullman Company. As there was no real alternative to the Pullman Company, this was true, which the Court found in 1944. The court found that Pullman was engaging in the practice of Exclusive Dealing or Tied Selling.

Exclusive Dealing and Tied Selling are outlawed by the Clayton Antirust Act, 1914

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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

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One of my books at home has refernce to Wagner - was it called Wagner Car and Palace Co or something like that? I also have a recollection that one of the US railroads - may have been Baltimore and Ohio - ran its own dining cars. Despite all the economic problems facing the railroads as the 50s progressed, long distance US pasenger service then was in general much the best in the world. We should be grateful thatit ran as long as it did.

I don't think I'll be reading tha Anti-Trust Act unless real insomnia sets in though.....

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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Many railroads operated their own dining cars. The Pennsylvania, the New York Central, the Union Pacific. Railroads tried to earn a reputation for themselves by their cuisine. Dining cars were loss leaders.

The B&O had one of the best reputations for dining. Lots of Southern fare and seafood.

The Santa Fe famously contracted them out to Fred Harvey, but they were the exception.

Yes, it was the Wagner Palace Car Company. Just like the Pullman Palace Car Company (until a name change).

US Antitrust law is a creature of its own. In Canada while we often steal legal ideas from the States, competition law works much differently up here. Probably more Oz-like.

Though attempting to leverage existing Monopoly A into new Monopoly B is the most common way to call an antitrust suit down onto your head in the US.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Strangely Warmed
Apprentice
# 13188

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SPK, did Pullman cars ever run in Canada? I'm not aware of them having run regularly out here in the west, but perhaps they were used on some international services between American cities and Montreal and/or Toronto.
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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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The CPR and CNR didn't employ Pullman on their own trains, which most was most runs considering their size. They did use Pullman on international trains like the Maple Leaf the Soo-Dominion, AIUI.

The CPR's and CNR's sleeping car operations were run along identical lines to Pullman, right down to having black porters.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397

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From my Dad's recollection (I was a little too young to experience it first-hand), the Baltimore & Ohio had a very fine reputation for food. So did the Santa Fe, and the Super Chief in particular was renowned for its French Toast.

SPK, I am shocked that the CN and the CP went to the lengths of aping the Pullman practice of having black porters on their sleepers. I assume that these would have been, at least in part, black Canadians, descendants of former slaves who reached freedom in Ontario on the Underground Railroad prior to 1865? Amazing.

That said, Pullman porters were the aristocracy of the African-American working class prior to the Civil Rights movement. There is an excellent account in Larry Tye's "Rising from the Rails: Pullman Porters and Making of the Black Middle Class."

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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No, most of the Ontario runaway community returned to the US during and after the Civil War. 40% or so stayed here, particularly around Buxton, Owen Sound, Orillia and Toronto, but the first three communities were farmers and the Toronto black community were generally small-businessmen. Blacksmiths, cab drivers, and whatnot.

The ones who stayed were the ones who had successful businesses and farms. However the community was tiny, especially by American standards.

The other black community before 1960 in Canada and actually the largest one was in Nova Scotia, the descendants of Black Loyalists.

I don't know what the recruitment policy in general was, but many of the Porters were African-Americans. Lincoln Alexander, Canada's first black MP (for Hamilton West, where I used to live) was the son of an American porter who came north.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

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This thread seems to have gone to sleep.

I've been away recently and seen something I didn't know existed. I came across it quite by chance. Do any shipmates know anything about it? There's a reference in Wikipedia.

On Dartmoor near Hay Tor are stone rails from a pre-railway era railway, early C19, not ancient Britons or Saxons. They are cut like a plateway, except they are stone rather than metal. There are even primitive points, though I couldn't work out is there were moving parts or the wagons would have simply been manipulated the way they were to turn.

Wikipedia says it was worked by horse and gravity.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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