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Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Gosh! The dangers of video and the things that get noticed! It can become "fernseed and elephants", to use C.S. Lewis's image, when we can strain a video for every little gesture.

I did not think it was his hands that were the issue but rather the fulsome and flowing nature of the cope. When he is standing he has his hands demurely together, but going up steps and so on he is holding back garments so he can actually move! You can see his alb and cassock being lifted when he first arrives. Have you ever tried going up steps in an alb and cope? Maybe if he slowed down a bit it would help.

But it can be a salutary lesson for clergy to watch themselves. When I first saw a video of a Mass I had celebrated it was cringeworthy noticing my twitches and glances and odd little unintended gestures.

Funniest part for me was Bp Roche trying to get the bookbearer to go away with some sidelong glances after the "Deus in adiutorium"

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Fr TT: I was only being pendantic!! The video was fun and enjoyable, especially since it was Vespers and one doesn't see that much.

I was referring to +Roche clasping his hands below his waist at times. Somehow, for vestments, it doesn't fit. Mind you, Proper Usage also demands that the deacons assist in the lifting of cope when moving. But I was impressed that people actually bowed at the Holy Name.

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Originally posted by Laurence:

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Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Wonder what you will make of this video.

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- The opportunity to compare Roman and Anglican choir dress- the sleeves on a rochet really do give it an 18th century feel!

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The way that some of the Anglican bishops very deliberately crossed themselves with water from the font, others ignored it, and one in particular did a convulsive little embarrassed spasm towards it! The RCs, however, knew exactly what to do- smooth movements, no ostentation or hesitation.

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The look on the Bishop of Leeds' face when he realised that Vivaldi's Gloria was a bit too long to stand through, but that he would look even sillier if he sat down...

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• the fact the crucifer carried in the cross at an angle. I hate that - looks like he's marching into battle with a halberd or is about to smack someone about the head with it. Processional crosses should be perpendicular!
• the servers; the vast majority were white, middle-aged men. The remainder were four little black boys. Is it that Leeds has no young servers? No women servers? No white / brown / yellow servers? Or do they have a special matching set of black boys for special occasions, kept in a cupboard between Christmas and Easter say? Enquiring minds need to know. Think back to the 18th Century comment above - it reminded me of those 18thC ladies with their fashionable black pageboys in attendance.
• Given that the servers were so smartly turned out in crisp cottas, I was disappointed by the presence of >sniff< cassock albs >spit< among the attendant clergy.
• Still on servers, I noticed that the server with the vimper wasn't sure what to do. I love the fact that older servers can carefully and lovingly direct youngsters in serving, even in the midst of a "big" service like this - it doesn't matter if the Pope himself is present, we are all still learning and that guiding hand is so important. Reminded me of the day in times past when I was thurifer with a very small new boat boy in a big service with lots of processions and he was told to "just stick by Corpus whatever happens". We spent the whole service with the boatboy holding onto the dangling ends of my girdle. On the one hand, so sweet! On the other hand, how lovely to see servers being trained up "on the job", even if that requires gentle direction in mid-function and isn't quite the "smooth-flowing" liturgy we hope for.
• The way the Bishes in the cong all looked like SBs in Chapel - they're there because they have to be and they know the "headmaster's" watching. Were they adopting a posture of prayerful contempletion or were they bored or were they all thinking "This would've been so much better if I'd been at the front..."?
• I too was disappointed with the Bish not only holding his arm by his side, but sweeping the cope out of the way to do so. Moreover, it was a most inferior cope - looked like it had come out of the dressing-up box in the attic. Methinks they could have managed some sort of damask at least, instead of that single layer of flimsy polycotton.

As mentioned, analysis of every gesture can be a disturbingthing!

Corpus

PS Cusanus- the bloke in pseudo-military attire was the Bishop of Leeds' chauffeur; the women in a mantilla was his wife. Honest.

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Bishop Lord Corpus Cani the Tremulous of Buzzing St Helens.

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Originally posted by Cusanus:
Who were the gentleman (in faux-military garb) and the lady in veil or mantilla who followed teh ABC and ABW in the procession?

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Lord Lieutenant of whatever ceremonial county Leeds is in, and the ABC's wife?

Lord Lieutenant of W. Yorkshire was, at least in March 2005, a woman - so the guy in uniform might be John Brennan, her Vice, or indeed she might be the high-heeled one. Doesn't make sense to have both of them there, though, so I'd plump for Dr. Williams as the lady present.

I'm always open to correction, for anyone who knows (/can guess) better!

[ETA: See? Always open to correction!]

[ 25. November 2006, 08:28: Message edited by: lazystudent ]

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Shipmate formerly known as lazystudent

The only way of catching a train, I have discovered, is to miss the train before. (G.K.C.)

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Originally posted by Corpus cani:
[*]the servers; the vast majority were white, middle-aged men. The remainder were four little black boys. Is it that Leeds has no young servers? No women servers? No white / brown / yellow servers? Or do they have a special matching set of black boys for special occasions, kept in a cupboard between Christmas and Easter say? Enquiring minds need to know. Think back to the 18th Century comment above - it reminded me of those 18thC ladies with their fashionable black pageboys in attendance.

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You know... I don't think they have a quota for altar server diversity... you should suggest it to them

Max

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Corpus, what's Radox and what's a vimper?

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Originally posted by Corpus cani:

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Originally posted by Laurence:
The way that some of the Anglican bishops very deliberately crossed themselves with water from the font, others ignored it, and one in particular did a convulsive little embarrassed spasm towards it! The RCs, however, knew exactly what to do- smooth movements, no ostentation or hesitation.

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I think this is rather an unfair comment. For some of the Anglicans it was unfamiliar, but they did it (so polite!) apart from the one who sneered on some grounds or other (there's always a conscientious objector in ecumenical affairs...), but plenty of the Anglican bishes managed the crossing just as smoothly as the Roman bishes. To suggest that they were "ostentatious or hesitant" is unkind and untrue .

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Point taken, Cc- possibly "proudly or uncertainly" might have been better phraseology than "ostentatious or hesitant", if I were being diplomatic. I did make sure that both the RCs and the Anglicans were getting an equal amount of unwarranted stereotypical criticism - Catholics can't sing, Anglicans can't cross themselves!

A great post, by the way, Cc- I look forward to the day when you're a bishop and have your own set of heraldic black (or blond, or olive-complexioned) boys to keep in the cupboard!

L.

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Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
By the way, that nice Our Father was chanted to one of our chants, adapted, I think, from a setting by Rachmaninov! That made me very happy!

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Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Corpus, what's Radox and what's a vimper?

Inquiring U.S. Orthodoxen want to know!

M
And I think they'd better take care that Madonna doesn't attempt to adopt those adorable little acolytes.

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Originally posted by Laurence:

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Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Wonder what you will make of this video.

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I only had a chance to look at the opening procession in a moment of insomnia last night- but I think it's wonderful! Leaving aside the joy of seeing Englishmen of two great churches worshipping together, there were some hilarious moments. Particular highlights for me were:

- The opportunity to compare Roman and Anglican choir dress- the sleeves on a rochet really do give it an 18th century feel!

- The way that some of the Anglican bishops very deliberately crossed themselves with water from the font, others ignored it, and one in particular did a convulsive little embarrassed spasm towards it! The RCs, however, knew exactly what to do- smooth movements, no ostentation or hesitation.

- The fact that many of the Catholic bishops were entirely terrified of the idea of singing the opening hymn, while the Anglicans happily belted it out.

- The look on the Bishop of Leeds' face when he realised that Vivaldi's Gloria was a bit too long to stand through, but that he would look even sillier if he sat down...

More gems!

L.

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Oh, that's wonderful. You're dead right about the Bishop of Leeds - there's a moment in the Gloria where he quite visibly thinks, "Oh s***, this isn't about to finish any time soon, is it?"

I also enjoyed the moment where an acolyte of some description flourished a mic stand in front of the bishop. We are very, very close to what Alan Bennett predicted in his diaries a few years back. He was at a church where there was a brief hiatus at the start of the sermon while the vicar clipped his radio mic to his surplice, and Bennett suggested that in a few decades there'll probably be a specific liturgy for dealing with this issue. Leeds Cathedral looks to be part way there already - all we needed was for them to cense it and sprinkle it with holy water (though perhaps they only do that for solemn masses...)

This video took me right back to the only time I've ever been in Leeds Cathedral - my home cathedral, at least when I'm resting my weight on my left foot - when my junior school choir sang there over twenty years ago. I was baptised in an RC church, and at that time was ver conscious of this, and identified myself as a Roman Catholic (while singing exclusively in Anglican churches/choirs!). I remember being very offended at our choirmaster pondering aloud as to whether to wear his "high church" (surplice, scarf) or "low church" (black cassock, tabs) get-up, and going with the latter.

There's also clearly one heck of a high altar lurking there at the east end, now obscured by the president's throne...

[ 25. November 2006, 22:12: Message edited by: John H ]

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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."

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Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
It was broadcast on EWTN, but it is no longer on their website, so this is the same video taken from the Patriarchate's website. Commentary is by EWTN and by Vatican Radio/tv.

Enjoy!

M

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Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Commentary is by EWTN and by Vatican Radio/tv.

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• clearly a lot when into this celebration of Mass -- why not do a High Mass with deacon and subdeacon? From what I've heard about St. Nicholas, they have no shortage of clerics around.
• The reading of the Epistle in French while the priest read in silently in Latin. I thought he would chant it first in Latin.
• The singing of the Salve Regina during the Last Gospel. I thought this was supposed to be done aloud.
• The shot of the priest during the post-communio, when was from behind the altar, looking at his face. How did they get this shot?
• The fact that the priest looked like Nathan Lane.
• The vast army of teeny tiny altar boys, which I found. . . well. . . creepy

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Originally posted by FCB:
The reading of the Epistle in French while the priest read in silently in Latin. I thought he would chant it first in Latin.

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but I'm betting it doesn't mention the botched embalming, and Pacelli's nose falling off.

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Originally posted by LA Dave:
And Papa Pacelli had some honker. Interesting that they did a funeral cortege through Rome. Was that because Pius XII was a native Roman?

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Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Thanks to the tip-off by Rocco on Whispers there are some interesting videos on the website of the RC Diocese of Salt Lake City appropriate to the season. I have the Chrism Mass on at the momen, and there is also the Palm Sunday Mass and Bishop's installation a couple of weeks ago. All in all, the Liturgy is dignified and well done, with some good music. Good use of mixed language. If this is what RC Liturgy in the US is like, it's not at all as bad as I imagined, based on comments on blogs etc. Of course, there are some rather naff moments, but hey, nowhere is perfect.

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Originally posted by FCB:
Here, from Google Video, is an SSPX Missa Cantata for the last Sunday after Pentecost from St. Nicholas in Paris. It struck me as a very well produced video.

A few things I noted:

• clearly a lot when into this celebration of Mass -- why not do a High Mass with deacon and subdeacon? From what I've heard about St. Nicholas, they have no shortage of clerics around.
• The reading of the Epistle in French while the priest read in silently in Latin. I thought he would chant it first in Latin.
• The singing of the Salve Regina during the Last Gospel. I thought this was supposed to be done aloud.
• The shot of the priest during the post-communio, when was from behind the altar, looking at his face. How did they get this shot?
• The fact that the priest looked like Nathan Lane.
• The vast army of teeny tiny altar boys, which I found. . . well. . . creepy

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St Gregory's video scares me...Is it 1969

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Originally posted by JArthurCrank:
I thought the dancing made it a very man-centered narcissistic liturgy.

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:

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Originally posted by JArthurCrank:
I thought the dancing made it a very man-centered narcissistic liturgy.

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One should only express joy and praise by moving one's lips, and no other parts of the body?

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Originally posted by FCB:
Just wondering what folks thought of these clips from the Easter Vigil at St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco?

I'll admit that there are bits I like, but there is something about the way it pillages a variety of traditions that reminds me of a food court in a mall and, frankly, gives me the creeps.

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:

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Originally posted by JArthurCrank:
I thought the dancing made it a very man-centered narcissistic liturgy.

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One should only express joy and praise by moving one's lips, and no other parts of the body?

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