|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: Aiding the suffering in Gaza deligitimises Israel -- WTF?
|
Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
There appear to be some Islamic extremists on board and the others are probably Useful Idiots.
The fact that this ship didn't stop (when the others did) suggests to me that some or all of the people on board were spoiling for a fight. They got one.
And got their arses handed to them on a platter - with full silver service.
There is a reason wy TV Tropes' writeup of Israel is under the heading Badass Israeli. You don't run an IDF blockade if you're not willing to get arrested... or shot... and you're an idiot if you do.
Suicide By Cop.
[ 02. June 2010, 06:42: Message edited by: Alex Cockell ]
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Sadly, this would be in keeping with Israeli actions in general. They seem to be stuck in this cycle of over-the-top machismo. I suspect it plays very well to the folks back home, though.
Yes. What I find worrying regarding the marines' action is how, once again, an Israeli military intervention has gone horribly wrong, as consistent intelligence (in more than one way) was obviously missing.
The same happened when they tried to get rid of Hisbollah by invading Lebanon in 2006, 'pacify' Gaza in 2008-9, and now this. None worked out.
You've picked exactly the same examples I would. Particularly the Lebanon invasion - that was actually the point in time where I reached this conclusion. Instead of using a small team to rescue a kidnapped Israeli soldier, the whole thing escalated into chaos.
The problem isn't that Israel acts, because sometimes there are legitimate arguments that it's entitled to do so. The problem is that Israel's response to situations is so wildly disproportionate.
Edit: And ineffective for that very reason. Last I heard, that Israeli soldier still hadn't been rescued.
[ 02. June 2010, 07:11: Message edited by: orfeo ]
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Sadly, this would be in keeping with Israeli actions in general. They seem to be stuck in this cycle of over-the-top machismo. I suspect it plays very well to the folks back home, though.
Yes. What I find worrying regarding the marines' action is how, once again, an Israeli military intervention has gone horribly wrong, as consistent intelligence (in more than one way) was obviously missing.
The same happened when they tried to get rid of Hisbollah by invading Lebanon in 2006, 'pacify' Gaza in 2008-9, and now this. None worked out.
They seem to have one of the best armies in the world, well-trained and well-equipped - but have been unable to manage any significant intervention in the past few years without serious glitches. And I really wonder how they're supposed to counter any serious outside attack, which I imagine could well happen at some point, and in the current state of utter confusion of intelligence and leadership.
Are the Israeli defence forces in a state of dissolution - perhaps due to increasing disillusion amongst its members? Looks like it to me. And isn't looking good.
Wesley,
if you accept the Israeli account, the largest ship was the only one to cut up rough. The commandos did not expect tough resistance and basically were given a very rough reception by the (mainly Turkish) welcoming party who were well tooled up for a scrap.
It appears that when two pistols were snatched from the commandos, one was shot, one was stabbed and one was thrown over the side, did the Israelis realise that this was more than just a stop the ship exercise. Thats when the Israelis used lethat force (rightly or wrongly depending on your point of view).It all went horribly wrong.
Watch this space: Turkey has been gradually politically moving towards a more Palestinian suporting/and finding its Islamist roots direction for a while now. It still spans the Muslim and European worlds to a degree, but it will be interesting to see its direction of travel. See this Jerusalem Post article....
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Editorials/Article.aspx?id=177170
The IDF is well trained and armed BUT despite what its critics say it is NOT an army that is utterly and totally brutalised; indeed if you compare its record to say Syria , it is accountable and restrained. However, it lives in a dangerous neighbourhood and there are Arab extremists (and fellow travellers) who will exploit any and every situation to damage Israel. The IDF treads a fine line and they would admit this operation blew up in their faces.
Saul
--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Suicide By Cop.
Feh. Suicide by state terrorism, maybe. By a state that won't allow tinned fruit or children's shoes into Gaza because ... well because they're Israel and they don't have to be rational. (A BBC report on 3 May said they were allowing cinnamon to be taken into Gaza but not coriander. That's just mindless muscle flexing -- showing who's boss. You can't make explosives from coriander.)
They only used illegal night-time boardings in international waters without giving fair warning because bulldozers can't float.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Enoch, so basically you're saying Britain in the 1950s had a conscience, but Israel in the 2010s does not.
No. I'm saying don't demonstrate, if the person you demonstrate doesn't recognise that as part of the language of political dialogue.
There's no principle of conscience that says demonstration has to be recognised as a universal human language. Some countries do. Some don't.
As an example of this sort of incomprehension, during the long Ulster war, some IRA prisoners put themselves on hunger strike. By and large the political culture of the rest of the UK does recognise various forms of demonstration and protest as part of the language of political dialogue. However, aggressive fasting has a place in Irish tradition, the Irish language of political dialogue, that it doesn't in the rest of the UK. It goes back a long way. It resonates in Ireland. It doesn't resonate outside as anything more than a particularly aggressive form of demonstration. So the IRA doesn't to this day understand why hunger strikes weren't persuasive, or that the reaction on the mainland tended to be 'if that's what they want, let them die'.
Even governments that do recognise demonstration, don't regard themselves as obliged to be persuaded by them. Some of the largest demos ever in the UK were over the Iraq war, but they made not a blind bit of difference. The government ignored them because there's no mechanism that obliges them to listen.
Besides, returning to the main debate, as has been suggested in other posts, Gandhi wasn't running the Isle of Wight and saying the rest of the UK had no right to exist.
You don't run an IDF blockade if you're not willing to get arrested... or shot...
In which case, you've no grounds for complaint if you do.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
|
Posted
New Yorker's laughable belief in Fox aside, there is evidence that IHH is a pretty dodgy member of the flotilla organisers. They of course were not the only group involved, or even the most prominent. Boats for Gaza and the Free Gaza group seem to be largely more involved. However, the Mavi Marmara was owned and ran by the IHH. Though most of the other boats carried aid and a small handfull of crew and passengers, it seems the Marmara was laden almost solely by activists. It seems a little strange that any aid ship would run a blockade to deliver people to an overcrowded country, when the other ships were heavily stocked with more useful items like medical supplies. It seems more strange when you look at the reports about the IHH. It seems all of the rumours on Fox news and Israeli propaganda sites comes from this one report.
quote:
pp14-15
Turkish authorities began their own domestic criminal investigation of IHH as early as December 1997, when sources revealed that leaders of IHH were purchasing automatic weapons fromother regional Islamic militant groups. IHH’s bureau in Istanbul was thoroughly searched, and its local officers were arrested. Security forces uncovered an array of disturbing items, including firearms, explosives, bomb-making instructions, and a “jihad flag.” After analyzing seized IHH documents, Turkish authorities concluded that “detained members of IHH were going to fight in Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Chechnya.”
According to a French intelligence report, the terrorist infiltration of IHH extended to its most senior ranks... "The IHH is an NGO, but it was kind of a type of cover-up… in order to obtain forged documents and also to obtain different forms of infiltration for Mujahideen in combat. And also to go and gather[recruit] these Mujahideens. And finally, one of the last responsibilities that they had was also to be implicated or involved in weapons trafficking."
Now, the question is, if this is true, why is Turkey still allowing this group to operate freely and even to purchase and run a ship under the Turkish flag? Things don't add up here and we know intelligence on terrorists is often fautly, especially when the evidence comes solely from one report and one man's accusations, we have to be suspicious. But the evidence is there. What do people think about it? Did a violent organisation infiltrate this aid flotilla in order to cause trouble. And if so, why on earth did the other peaceful organisations involved allow them to do so?
--------------------
“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
|
Posted
Addendum - it appears the report I quoted above relies solely on the testimony of one man - Jean-Louis Bruguière who made these allegations as a witness in a court case in 2007.
--------------------
“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If it had actually been presented as a protest against the blockade, my reaction to it might be completely different. But it wasn't. So I really wish you would stop bringing up analogies with protesters.
Well, I have no idea where you're getting your news from, but in all the reports I've seen/read, it's been plain as a pikestaff that this had always been presented as a protest march, but with ships.
So the analogies stand. I appreciate that it fits in with your preconceived notions of good/bad to believe the worst of the blockade runners, but you're maintaining your views in contradiction of the facts. A bit like New Yorker and his Faux News sources.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Clint Boggis
Shipmate
# 633
|
Posted
I see nothing at all suspicious about there being quite a number of people aboard the ship. It's being done under the public gaze deliberately to draw attention to the blockade but it's still the first aid convoy, so it's a dual purpose run.
Eventually, once the sea route for transporting goods to Gaza is open, there'll just be ship's crew, medics and aid workers and the occasional journalist or UN or EU observer to assure the Israelis that there aren't weapons. Until then the more people present to observe and report on any attempt by Israel to stop perfectly legal transit of goods, the better. The more journalists, the more high profile people whose injury or disappearance would make the news and cause severe embarrassment to Israel, the better.
Clearly.
.
Posts: 1505 | From: south coast | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
And as to there being problems on just one of the six ships, a former US ambassador was interviewed on R4 this morning, who was present on one of the other boats.
An American citizen is currently in an Israeli hospital, being denied his freedom and access to the press because "he didn't get out of the way fast enough" and the Israelis don't want the world to see this guy's bruises.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Sadly, this would be in keeping with Israeli actions in general. They seem to be stuck in this cycle of over-the-top machismo. I suspect it plays very well to the folks back home, though.
Yes. What I find worrying regarding the marines' action is how, once again, an Israeli military intervention has gone horribly wrong, as consistent intelligence (in more than one way) was obviously missing.
The same happened when they tried to get rid of Hisbollah by invading Lebanon in 2006, 'pacify' Gaza in 2008-9, and now this. None worked out.
They seem to have one of the best armies in the world, well-trained and well-equipped - but have been unable to manage any significant intervention in the past few years without serious glitches. And I really wonder how they're supposed to counter any serious outside attack, which I imagine could well happen at some point, and in the current state of utter confusion of intelligence and leadership.
Could it be that raher than serious glitches or lack of (military) intelligence they simply don't care how they are viewed by the outside world? There seems to be an assumption that all the Arab countries will hate them, Britain is on rather dodgy ground morally due to complicity in creating the situation in the first place and the USA will support them whatever and noone else really matters.
--------------------
tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
|
Posted
If you look up historical naval blockades you will find that they have no strict rules as to international or territorial waters. A blockade can be "loose" meaning no ships intercepted or "close" meaning a harbor or port is patroled.
As to Israel's blockade this site Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs seems to oputline what Israel thinks its blockade is.
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Sadly, this would be in keeping with Israeli actions in general. They seem to be stuck in this cycle of over-the-top machismo. I suspect it plays very well to the folks back home, though.
Yes. What I find worrying regarding the marines' action is how, once again, an Israeli military intervention has gone horribly wrong, as consistent intelligence (in more than one way) was obviously missing.
The same happened when they tried to get rid of Hisbollah by invading Lebanon in 2006, 'pacify' Gaza in 2008-9, and now this. None worked out.
They seem to have one of the best armies in the world, well-trained and well-equipped - but have been unable to manage any significant intervention in the past few years without serious glitches. And I really wonder how they're supposed to counter any serious outside attack, which I imagine could well happen at some point, and in the current state of utter confusion of intelligence and leadership.
Could it be that raher than serious glitches or lack of (military) intelligence they simply don't care how they are viewed by the outside world? There seems to be an assumption that all the Arab countries will hate them, Britain is on rather dodgy ground morally due to complicity in creating the situation in the first place and the USA will support them whatever and noone else really matters.
Like all 'good' military exercises the best description of this one is the ''cock up'' theory. The Israeli military, like the military the world over, gets it badly wrong. Their intelligence was poor and they went into this operation totally unprepared for serious opposition.
Whatever side of the coin you are on this incident, it all went badly wrong.
For my money I tend to accept the Israeli perspective on this. Of the 5 boats all were peacefully stopped; except the largest one, a Turkish registered vessel, and this was abseiled on to by Israeli commandos who expected no or very little resistance.
Simply these commandos were set upon (presumably by 15 or 20 men and as the video clearly shows) as they landed on the upper deck area, the Israeli troops were completely caught unawares and when one was stabbed, one was shot (with one of 2 pistols seized by the humanitarians) and one other commando thrown to a lower deck the ''heavy gang'' moved in and the Israelis didn't plan to kill but surprised by the tough resistance did go OTT and hence the deaths.
Their comrades in arms used lethal force to stop the beatings being doled out to the first tranche of commandos.
I think its called the 'cock up' theory of history, rather than any well planned conspiracy. I think there were several hard cases on the largest ship, men who simply wanted to resist and give any Israeli they met a good beating, which is what they did.
Sadly the consequences of this uneccesary resistance were deaths and more injuries.Israelis tend to be restrained but when they see force being used they then tend to respond with the same amount or more force. Once weapons with live ammo are used in a resticted space , the results will be carnage.
Saul
[ 02. June 2010, 13:44: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]
--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
[...] Sadly the consequences of this uneccesary resistance were deaths and more injuries.Israelis tend to be restrained but when they see force being used they then tend to respond with the same amount or more force. Once weapons with live ammo are used in a resticted space , the results will be carnage.
Saul
I don't think they're necessarily restrained. As long as they're led by politicians and possibly high-ranking officers who haven't got a clue, then this is bound to happen. Again, may I point to my earlier posts regarding the in many ways counter-productive 2nd Lebanon war and the recent invasion of Gaza.
AFAIK, both have been found to be in serious breach of human rights (war version - I guess that'd be the Geneva Convention then) and have also proved to be rather unsuccessful: Hesbollah are still around, as are Hamas. Rocket fire from Gaza continues, and Israeli fighter planes have just been shot at in southern Lebanon (over a neighbouring country, admittedly), though Hisbollah rocket fire seems to have stopped for now.
Again, I can only reiterate what I've said earlier: It is a pity that the Israeli military is used as a (well-armed) pawn in the wider game of Israeli right-wing politics. Netanyahu has never exactly been a peacemaker himself, and is even more prone to right-wing and orthodox-right influence than his predecessors.
On the other hand, and as has been argued as well, the Turkish aid organisation in charge of the ferry may as well prove to be quite on the right side of the political and religious arena, and the Turkish government and parliament are mostly on the Islamic right too.
So, what we have here, IMO, is a battle of moderate extremists (but potentially still extremists) on both sides of the flotilla conflict, and a very much right-wing and extremist movement, Hamas, in the Gaza strip.
'Unnecessary resistance' on the ferry may, or not, have been predictable. That the planning of the boarding of the ferry was very poor, appears rather clear to me.
--------------------
Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Israelis tend to be restrained
You cannot possibly be serious. Are you aware of the history of Israeli (and prior to that Zionist) action over the last, say, 100 years?
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dumpling Jeff
Shipmate
# 12766
|
Posted
I noticed Ambassador Edward Peck, the U.S. ambassador who supported the 9/11 bombings, was on board one of the ships. He has since been in the media. I didn't hear him claim the Israelis fired first.
Since he was in a position to know and dislikes Israel it would seem he would want to make that claim if it were true.
Has anyone else heard him claim the Israelis fired first?
--------------------
"There merely seems to be something rather glib in defending the police without question one moment and calling the Crusades-- or war in general-- bad the next. The second may be an extension of the first." - Alogon
Posts: 2572 | From: Nomad | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
Yes I have heard the claim and a friend sent me video but I haven't finished downloading it yet.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Clint Boggis
Shipmate
# 633
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
I noticed Ambassador Edward Peck, the U.S. ambassador who supported the 9/11 bombings,
Do you mean he was in favour of 9/11 attacks on the US? If not, then what do you mean? Presumably something 'against the flow' or you wouldn't mention it.
I did a half-hearted Google search and quick scan of his Wikipedia page but they seem to have missed that. You could correct it.
No, I expect this is a misunderstanding.
Posts: 1505 | From: south coast | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Hamas hasn't been around for 40 years. Do you know anything about the history here, or are you just making this all up?
Seem pretty active to me Who are you asking this question of? What prompted this assertion of yours, mousethief?...
Dude, did you read that link? It says quite clearly, "Hamas was created in 1987." That was 23 years ago, not 40. So I am correct when I say, "Hamas hasn't been around for 40 years." This isn't rocket surgery.
If you read the thread you will see who asserted that Hamas has been around for 40 years. It's always a good idea to read a thread before jumping in with a snippy comment.
Wasn't being snippy. I read your comment as "Hamas hasn't EXISTED in the last 40 years". I saw the "1987" creation date and wondered where you were coming up with what I thought you meant. So, silly me ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ....
Posts: 3499 | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Israelis tend to be restrained
You cannot possibly be serious. Are you aware of the history of Israeli (and prior to that Zionist) action over the last, say, 100 years?
Well, er, yes I am.
But notably there are exceptions and that was my earlier point; we don't have to look too far to see serious human rights abuses by the British Army in Iraq. No excuse of course and Israelis are not perfect either - granted.
But, by the standards of the area and wider human rights Israel does exercise restraint to a degree. However, there is a debate within Israel and indeed Israel is divided on the issue itself. There are always hotheads on both sides;
I have travelled throughout Israel and the West Bank and seen a little of what goes on there.
Do you give ground or hold your ground? Israel gave Gaza back to the Arabs in 2005 and this was, please note, up to the 1967 borders. What happened? Hamas took over and sadly Hamas' human rights record is utterly abymsmal in the extreme - and that is reference its ''own'' people.
Saul
--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
When do the lies stop? Hamas didn't "take it over." Hamas was democratically elected in an election declared fair by numerous international observers.
And you admit Israel "gave back" Gaza which is to say it was holding onto it for 38 years against the Geneva Conventions and other international laws.
When do they "give back" the settlements? Or the land they stole in "Operation Clean Sweep" (aka Ethnic Cleansing) in 1948?
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
Has anyone else heard him claim the Israelis fired first?
Yes. See my post above. Saul's assertion that there was violence on one boat only is wrong - the Israelis who boarded the former Ambassador's boat hospitalised several people, including a US citizen.
That the big ferry was (I think) the last to be seized becomes significant when stun and tear-gas grenades have already been used on the other boats, who were presumably in radio contact with each other. I'm uncertain as to whether live firing took place before the ferry was boarded, but that seems like weighing things to a nicety, given the circumstances.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dumpling Jeff
Shipmate
# 12766
|
Posted
So basically the IDF fired tear gas on one boat, then when they went to board another the crew tried to kill the IDF with makeshift swords, claiming they were fired on first?
These don't sound like trained peace protesters, they sound like militants who were looking for a fight and got one.
Peck was the man Jeremiah Wright was quoting in his "Chickens coming home to roost" sermon. He blamed U.S. policy as a cause of 9/11. This shows he is clearly a Palestinian sympathizer and an activist.
Yet he's also a former ambassador. I'd like to think he wouldn't lie even though he clearly uses weasel words.
For example, while discussing accusations that his shipmates were agent provocateurs for the Palestinians he responded that most were only trying to bring aid to Palestine. Most is a weasel word. Does that mean 49% were itching for a fight? I never imagined more than a handful were trying to kill Israelis. I assumed the rest were window dressing.
"Most" makes his claim meaningless. While not a lie, the truth is far from this man.
But I suppose the truth is whatever the media is spinning today. It makes me feel old and sad.
--------------------
"There merely seems to be something rather glib in defending the police without question one moment and calling the Crusades-- or war in general-- bad the next. The second may be an extension of the first." - Alogon
Posts: 2572 | From: Nomad | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
pjkirk
Shipmate
# 10997
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
So basically the IDF fired tear gas on one boat, then when they went to board another the crew tried to kill the IDF with makeshift swords, claiming they were fired on first?
These don't sound like trained peace protesters, they sound like militants who were looking for a fight and got one.
Peck was the man Jeremiah Wright was quoting in his "Chickens coming home to roost" sermon. He blamed U.S. policy as a cause of 9/11. This shows he is clearly a Palestinian sympathizer and an activist.
Yet he's also a former ambassador. I'd like to think he wouldn't lie even though he clearly uses weasel words.
For example, while discussing accusations that his shipmates were agent provocateurs for the Palestinians he responded that most were only trying to bring aid to Palestine. Most is a weasel word. Does that mean 49% were itching for a fight? I never imagined more than a handful were trying to kill Israelis. I assumed the rest were window dressing.
"Most" makes his claim meaningless. While not a lie, the truth is far from this man.
But I suppose the truth is whatever the media is spinning today. It makes me feel old and sad.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
--------------------
Dear God, I would like to file a bug report -- Randall Munroe (http://xkcd.com/258/)
Posts: 1177 | From: Swinging on a hammock, chatting with Bokonon | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
Dumpling, if your boat was boarded on the high seas by armed men - what do you consider to be a reasonable reaction ?
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
Has anyone else heard him claim the Israelis fired first?
Yes. See my post above. Saul's assertion that there was violence on one boat only is wrong - the Israelis who boarded the former Ambassador's boat hospitalised several people, including a US citizen.
That the big ferry was (I think) the last to be seized becomes significant when stun and tear-gas grenades have already been used on the other boats, who were presumably in radio contact with each other. I'm uncertain as to whether live firing took place before the ferry was boarded, but that seems like weighing things to a nicety, given the circumstances.
We could bat back and forth who did this and who did that until kingdom come.
Its clear Mousethief has her demonology and to be fair I have mine. As can be seen I support Israel, but not blindly so, they are capable of spectacular ''own goals''.
To illustrate how complex the area is and if you're interested, look at this link. A Chritian Arab murdered in Gaza in 2007. The only Christian bookshop in Gaza and this man was despatched by persons unknown.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gazas-christian-bookseller-killed-396283.html
I don't want to emabrk on a ''they did that'', ''they did this'' saga, but believe me when I say that Hamas are ruthless and determined - they will kill whoever they deem to get in their way. Similiar to the Provisional IRA of the 1970s and 1980s.
Its a complex violent ''neighbourhood'' and to demonise one group or race is a backward step.
Saul
--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
[...] Its clear Mousethief has her demonology and to be fair I have mine. [...]
Saul
His. But apart from that, some good points there. Thank you.
--------------------
Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
Saul - I don't think any of us here are suggesting that Hamas aren't nuttier than a fruit and nut bar with the fruit and chocolate taken out and more nuts added. But they are the party elected by the majority of Gazans, and they're the ones charities and the UN have to work with in order to feed, house and clothe the residents.
Likewise, the Israeli government is democratically elected, and some of those in coalition with the majority party are pretty much just as nutty as Hamas. But they're the ones the international community have to work with to sort out one of the most intractable geopolitical problems on the planet.
And yes, the Arab Christians get it in the neck (sometimes literally) from both sides.
But my views took a complete 360 turn when my parents went on pilgrimage to 'The Holy Land' back in the early nineties. The Palestinians were, to a man, hospitable and generous - and yet the young IDF conscripts treated them (including my parents' party's drivers - Arab Christians) like shit. Literally, like something they trod in.
My dad (and he's Jewish by birth) couldn't believe it. He thought, as some here do, that the parallels with Nazi Germany's treatment of Jews were not only obvious but shameful.
So a lot of it comes down to this: given the history of the Jewish people in the 20th century and the massive amount of leeway the Israeli state is given within the global community, the treatment of the indiginous Arab peoples by the Jewish state is almost beyond parody.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
These don't sound like trained peace protesters, they sound like militants who were looking for a fight and got one.
Jeff, people who are looking for a fight aren't armed with kitchen scissors and bits of pipe. It's sheer fantasy to think these were people who were looking to tangle with the IDF using pinking shears.
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
We could bat back and forth who did this and who did that until kingdom come.
This is defeatist. Without knowing what actually happened we can't determine what the appropriate international reaction should be. The information blackout imposed by the Israelis (the ships were streaming information until attacked) hardly makes the Israeli side of the story seem more the truthful.
quote:
Its clear Mousethief has her demonology and to be fair I have mine.
An attempt to brush the reality under the rug. If you're losing the argument, or your side has the weaker evidence, claim both sides were wrong. Both sides may be in the wrong, but it doesn't follow that they are equally in the wrong or equally accountable for what happened.
quote:
I don't want to emabrk on a ''they did that'', ''they did this'' saga
Of course not. You might lose.
quote:
but believe me when I say that Hamas are ruthless and determined - they will kill whoever they deem to get in their way.
With bulldozers? You've just described Israel.
quote:
Its a complex violent ''neighbourhood'' and to demonise one group or race is a backward step.
And to dismiss hard evidence as "demonizing" is obscene.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
Now, the question is, if this is true, why is Turkey still allowing this group to operate freely and even to purchase and run a ship under the Turkish flag? Things don't add up here and we know intelligence on terrorists is often fautly, especially when the evidence comes solely from one report and one man's accusations, we have to be suspicious. But the evidence is there. What do people think about it? Did a violent organisation infiltrate this aid flotilla in order to cause trouble. And if so, why on earth did the other peaceful organisations involved allow them to do so?
To add to what I said above, this does not look like a terrorist programme to me. It does appear that most of their work is done in Muslim countries but that does not necessarily make them bad. As to their ties with Hamas, it would be hard to relieve suffering in Gaza without talking to the people governing the place. Surely how to help people who have dubious governments is an ongoing problem for aid organisations?
In my understanding, global jihadists are more concerned with harming "infidels" than aiding their fellow-Muslims.
--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
Now, the question is, if this is true, why is Turkey still allowing this group to operate freely and even to purchase and run a ship under the Turkish flag? Things don't add up here and we know intelligence on terrorists is often fautly, especially when the evidence comes solely from one report and one man's accusations, we have to be suspicious. But the evidence is there. What do people think about it? Did a violent organisation infiltrate this aid flotilla in order to cause trouble. And if so, why on earth did the other peaceful organisations involved allow them to do so?
To add to what I said above, this does not look like a terrorist programme to me. It does appear that most of their work is done in Muslim countries but that does not necessarily make them bad. As to their ties with Hamas, it would be hard to relieve suffering in Gaza without talking to the people governing the place. Surely how to help people who have dubious governments is an ongoing problem for aid organisations?
In my understanding, global jihadists are more concerned with harming "infidels" than aiding their fellow-Muslims.
True, and I read they also dig wells in Africa. Of course they do good work as part of their charity activities. The question is whether this good work is a front for something more nefarious. I would like to hear someone address the points I raised about the IHH. The evidence isn't compelling enough for us all to get out the pitchforks but it should certainly make people ask questions.
--------------------
“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
...the crew tried to kill the IDF with makeshift swords
So when did a club become a makeshift sword? And you complain about weasel words... ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
These don't sound like trained peace protesters, they sound like militants who were looking for a fight and got one.
Peace protesters aren't trained. And fighting back against armed attackers doesn't suggest anything either way. It sounds pretty normal considering the situation. They should have restrained themselves in hindsight but that's pretty hard in such a chaotic and frightening situation.
quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
Peck was the man Jeremiah Wright was quoting in his "Chickens coming home to roost" sermon. He blamed U.S. policy as a cause of 9/11. This shows he is clearly a Palestinian sympathizer and an activist.
I don't know who Peck is but your logic is appalling and your conclusions nonsensical. Your post just seems to be a rather dirty smear campaign against this man. I'm not sure why though.
--------------------
“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If it had actually been presented as a protest against the blockade, my reaction to it might be completely different. But it wasn't. So I really wish you would stop bringing up analogies with protesters.
Well, I have no idea where you're getting your news from, but in all the reports I've seen/read, it's been plain as a pikestaff that this had always been presented as a protest march, but with ships.
So the analogies stand. I appreciate that it fits in with your preconceived notions of good/bad to believe the worst of the blockade runners, but you're maintaining your views in contradiction of the facts. A bit like New Yorker and his Faux News sources.
Hmm, well it must be a conspiracy between every major media group in Australia, including the independent government-funded broadcaster. Because I just did a quick whip-round and every single story I found mentioned 'ships carrying aid' or 'aid ships' or something along those lines.
Oh, and just to be clear, Fox News isn't one of my sources.
If, as seems likely, it was in FACT a protest, then that only proves my point. I don't have a lot of respect for protesters who aren't honest about what they're doing, and try to present it as an aid mission for the purpose of maximising the outrage when Israel blocked them.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
How odd you can only look at Australian-based news sites. I wonder why that should be.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dumpling Jeff
Shipmate
# 12766
|
Posted
Think, verbal protests would be the order of the day. I certainly wouldn't try to attack a fleet of warships with makeshift swords.
Saul could you provide a link to ambassador Peck claiming the IDF fired deadly weapons into the ships before landing?
Hawk, a sword is a metal club with a somewhat sharpened edge. Most historical swords were made of crappy iron that wouldn't hold an edge. We hear about the exceptional swords because they were exceptional.
Peck was on one of the ships.
--------------------
"There merely seems to be something rather glib in defending the police without question one moment and calling the Crusades-- or war in general-- bad the next. The second may be an extension of the first." - Alogon
Posts: 2572 | From: Nomad | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
Dump, we're talking round pipes. Perfectly round. There is no edge. It's the exact 180° opposite of having an edge. You can't get any less edgy than a cylinder. Their edgeosity factor is nil. No edgeness. Completely unedgeified. It's not a sword in any way, shape, or form. Give it up.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
How odd you can only look at Australian-based news sites. I wonder why that should be.
And where did I say that?
It's not a question of 'can'. It's a question of which are my usual news sources. Hmm, how about I start with the sources most likely to have local content of interest to me along with the international stories?
It's occasionally fascinating to find out what's on the minds of citizens in the distribution area of the New York or LA Times, but it's really not the first place I go to. For starters they don't tell me what's on at the local cinema. A pathetic lack of service on their part.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
How is that at all relevant to stories about Israel?
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
How is that at all relevant to stories about Israel?
You're right. Obviously, for stories about Israel I should go to Israeli sites, and perhaps Palestinian, Lebanese, Jordanian and Egyptian ones.
Just like you have, right?
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
By the way mousethief, given that the title of this thread refers to 'aiding', it seems INCREDIBLY odd that you've chosen to take issue with my comment that all the media stories I've read refer to aid.
Apparently, Doc Tor is living in some other part of the universe where all the stories refer to 'protestors', but now I'm becoming rather confused as to what your position is on this.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
By the way mousethief, given that the title of this thread refers to 'aiding', it seems INCREDIBLY odd that you've chosen to take issue with my comment that all the media stories I've read refer to aid.
I find it beyond odd, into irrational, that you think that's what I was taking issue with.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
|
Posted
Well, the shit has really hit the fan and obviously the powers that be in Israel are not upset as they instigated things.
Perhaps, with Hilarion Capucci on board and the support of Turkey for the blocade breaking flotilla the Israelis took a Bomber Harris view of the situation and decided that only total collapse of the opposition counted.
If anyone on these threads is still unconvinced of the total amorality of interstate relations they are pissing into the wind.
--------------------
Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
By the way mousethief, given that the title of this thread refers to 'aiding', it seems INCREDIBLY odd that you've chosen to take issue with my comment that all the media stories I've read refer to aid.
I find it beyond odd, into irrational, that you think that's what I was taking issue with.
Well, you'd better explain it to me. I said the stories I'd read referred to 'aid'. Doc Tor said it was clear from all the stories he'd read that this was a protest. I said that all the stories from Australian sources referred to 'aid'.
And you jumped in because... You think that I shouldn't just read Australian stories referring to 'aid', I should read American stories referring to 'aid'??
I can honestly put my hand on my heart and say I haven't the faintest clue what your issue is. If your issue is that I have suspicions this was actually a protest CLOAKED as aid, then your response spectacularly failed to communicate this.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Saul - I don't think any of us here are suggesting that Hamas aren't nuttier than a fruit and nut bar with the fruit and chocolate taken out and more nuts added. But they are the party elected by the majority of Gazans, and they're the ones charities and the UN have to work with in order to feed, house and clothe the residents.
Likewise, the Israeli government is democratically elected, and some of those in coalition with the majority party are pretty much just as nutty as Hamas. But they're the ones the international community have to work with to sort out one of the most intractable geopolitical problems on the planet.
And yes, the Arab Christians get it in the neck (sometimes literally) from both sides.
But my views took a complete 360 turn when my parents went on pilgrimage to 'The Holy Land' back in the early nineties. The Palestinians were, to a man, hospitable and generous - and yet the young IDF conscripts treated them (including my parents' party's drivers - Arab Christians) like shit. Literally, like something they trod in.
My dad (and he's Jewish by birth) couldn't believe it. He thought, as some here do, that the parallels with Nazi Germany's treatment of Jews were not only obvious but shameful.
So a lot of it comes down to this: given the history of the Jewish people in the 20th century and the massive amount of leeway the Israeli state is given within the global community, the treatment of the indiginous Arab peoples by the Jewish state is almost beyond parody.
Doc Tor
yes well made points and I understand where you are coming from - Israelis can appear as arrogant, self assured and down right rude at times! For some this is a bit of a front and they see themselves as tough and this comes across as arrogant and superior behaviour at times.
I guess I am sensitive to the squeeze on Arab Christians both in the West Bank and Gaza. They are in a 'no win' situation and get squeezed by both sides, but they have a long and honourable history in that part of the world. The extreme Islamicists can be brutal to them and Israel is not their friend either.
At its heart a Jewish state is a definite thorn in the side of the Islamic Arab world. . For me this is the key aspect and the great question for the Arab/Islamic world to reconcile/answer.
I have no easy solutions to this intractable problem and better minds than mine have foundered on Israel and the peace process.
I have no special expertise, but I have good contacts with Jewish people, have visited Israel/West Bank and have read around the subject a lot.
To be fair I think the Arabs have been let down by their leadership and maybe just maybe the more moderate route could provide a way forward. Who knows?
Also as you'll know Israeli views do vary a lot from the hawks to the doves. Violence begets violence and there is a siege mentality in Israel; they do react and over react and like this incident get it badly wrong. But at heart I support Israel - but am not ignorant of their failings.
Peace.....one day!
Saul
--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
Hawk, a sword is a metal club with a somewhat sharpened edge. Most historical swords were made of crappy iron that wouldn't hold an edge. We hear about the exceptional swords because they were exceptional.
Weasel words.
quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
Peck was on one of the ships.
So that's why you've initiated a dirty smear campaign against him. Interesting.
On another note - it is becoming increasingly likely that there was some degree of attempted hijacking of this protest/aid mission by a small group of violent activists looking for a fight. This report by the Guardian today is not categoric proof but should certainly make us think. For one thing, the picture shows slingshots inscribed with the word 'Hizbullah'. This isn't a makeshift weopon pulled together in the heat of the moment, and neither is it something someone brings onto a ship if they are intending passive resistance.
Putting Israeli bungling and violence to one side, as I think most people can agree on that, we should also look at the mistakes of the activists. And if the leading organisations did fail to screen the passengers properly and allowed even a handful of violent activists on board with hidden weapons (not guns but definitely still weapons) then they should share some of the blame for the collapse of the situation into violence.
[ 03. June 2010, 08:31: Message edited by: Hawk ]
--------------------
“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
Hawk, a sword is a metal club with a somewhat sharpened edge. Most historical swords were made of crappy iron that wouldn't hold an edge. We hear about the exceptional swords because they were exceptional.
Weasel words.
quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
Peck was on one of the ships.
So that's why you've initiated a dirty smear campaign against him. Interesting.
On another note - it is becoming increasingly likely that there was some degree of attempted hijacking of this protest/aid mission by a small group of violent activists looking for a fight. This report by the Guardian today is not categoric proof but should certainly make us think. For one thing, the picture shows slingshots inscribed with the word 'Hizbullah'. This isn't a makeshift weopon pulled together in the heat of the moment, and neither is it something someone brings onto a ship if they are intending passive resistance.
Putting Israeli bungling and violence to one side, as I think most people can agree on that, we should also look at the mistakes of the activists. And if the leading organisations did fail to screen the passengers properly and allowed even a handful of violent activists on board with hidden weapons (not guns but definitely still weapons) then they should share some of the blame for the collapse of the situation into violence.
As the dust settles, it is clear that there were many well meaning and humanitarian folk on the ships who did not want violence.
As Hawk has said and now with further examination the Turkish involvement by the group IHH was NOT entirely benign and peaceful.
If you read the Guardian article and The Times one here a clear pattern emerges....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7142977.ece
There was a tranche of hard core activists who were determined to go on a Jihad. I think that the fact those sort of people were on board should make the more genuine humanitarians think again.
I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue the way the Israelis responded to the violence was ham fisted. Equally if it wasn't for these hate filled ''martyrs'' who just wanted confrontation, the over-reaction wouldn't have occured.
The danger is we demonise the ''other'' and this leads to a ''them and us'' unhelpful scenario. Like I've said Israel is a responsible state.....but it cocks up from time to time. Don't kick the Israelis - without seeing the full picture that is now emerging from very objective reporting by non Jewish and non Arab journalists.
Saul
--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue the way the Israelis responded to the violence was ham fisted. Equally if it wasn't for these hate filled ''martyrs'' who just wanted confrontation, the over-reaction wouldn't have occured.
Well, that's impossile to prove one way or the other. But your theory ignores the fact that the Israelis used guns, live rounds, teargas and over-reaction tactics on all the ships, not just the one with the violent resistence.
--------------------
“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
Actually if you step back from the whole who's right thing for a moment, the image of using a slingshot against Israeli soldiers is a smile-inducing invocation of biblical themes. Who's Goliath now?
Saul, I don't know what you mean by saying Israel is a "responsible state". They certainly are responsible for a lot of death, human rights violations, ethnic cleansing, starvation, privation, and Geneva Convention violations. That seems pretty irresponsible to me.
orfeo, my point was that you were making a point about how long and hard you had searched the news, and it was only Australian news you searched. Not a terribly impressive search.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
If I was Australian I would have access to a wide variety of newspapers (the SMH, The Age and the Australian, to name the ones I know off the top of my head, there will of course be others) and a range of television news, from ABC to commercial broadcasters.
I disagree far, far more than I agree with orfeo but his comments on this thread appear to be entirely reasonable to me and his decision to read only Australian news sources in order to understand a foreign dispute strikes me as not only legitimate but also entirely normal.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
Could be. I think if I said I only read American news sources about Israel I'd be flayed alive. YMMV.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
