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Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
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I guess I am sensitive to the squeeze on Arab Christians both in the West Bank and Gaza. They are in a 'no win' situation and get squeezed by both sides, but they have a long and honourable history in that part of the world. The extreme Islamicists can be brutal to them and Israel is not their friend either.
...

Saul

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Could be. I think if I said I only read American news sources about Israel I'd be flayed alive. YMMV.

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Originally posted by MerlintheMad:

quote:

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Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
...
I guess I am sensitive to the squeeze on Arab Christians both in the West Bank and Gaza. They are in a 'no win' situation and get squeezed by both sides, but they have a long and honourable history in that part of the world. The extreme Islamicists can be brutal to them and Israel is not their friend either.
...

Saul

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Palestinian Christians were the largest segment of the population until the 20th century. During the last c. fifty years they have been marginalized by "both sides" to the point that emigration has reduced Christians to a mere fraction of their former numbers. At the present rate of emigration it won't be long before there are effectively no Christian Palestinians/Arabs left.

Even in Lebanon, which has been a Maronite Christian enclave surrounded by Islam, the Maronite population has fallen below half for the first time....

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Could be. I think if I said I only read American news sources about Israel I'd be flayed alive. YMMV.

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Originally posted by Hawk:
Possibly the problem is American news then.

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Originally posted by mousethief:
orfeo, my point was that you were making a point about how long and hard you had searched the news, and it was only Australian news you searched. Not a terribly impressive search.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
My point was merely that Doc Tor's assertion - that it was obvious from all news reports that this was a 'protest' - was not in keeping with the news sources I had to hand, which all referred to 'aid'.

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm sorry, Saul, but people who are "spoiling for a fight" with the IDF don't do it with kitchen knives and pipe truncheons when they could be better armed, and it's clear they could have been better armed.

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Originally posted by IconiumBound:
And on the other side, the IDF, must have expected less than lethal weapons to be encountered since they were also 'armed' with paint-ball rifles.

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Originally posted by Hawk:
Anarchists and hooligans do it all the time, engaging police (whether armed with tear gas, batons or guns) with bricks and bottles.

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Originally posted by redderfreak:
I've read this thread with interest and I agree with Mousethief. Thanks for your posts.

I can't see Israel lifting the siege of Gaza except by force or until they withdraw from the West Bank and a Palestinian state is established. It's like the German occupation of France in World War 2. The occupied West Bank is similar to the Vichy puppet regime of Marshall Petain. The legitimate democratically elected Palestinian government (Hamas)is holed up in Gaza. The Germans regarded France as their rightful property. They regarded the French resistance as terrorism, the same as Israel regards any resistance by the Palestinians to occupation. I know it's not a perfect analogy but there are interesting parallels.

I think there will be no peace until Palestine has its own security to balance Israel's. At the moment they have none.

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Its a completely barking analogy. Shows a complete detachment from the situation on the ground in my view.

Hamas are not the sugar coated candy sort of guys you'd want to sit down with to do any business with. They have repeatedly said they want to destroy Israel utterly. How can you dialogue with that perspective?

Why is Mahmoud Abbas and his government illegitimate?

Why is Hamas legitimate and the W.Bank government not?

How can any group like Hamas convince the Israelis they are serious about mutual agreements; living next door to each other? (eg. peace!)

Frankly from reading your post the analogy you use (Vichy France )is completely innapropriate and wide of the mark by a long shot. IMO.

As for Mousethief's posts, well, he has a legitimate point of view. He seems to demonise anything Israel seems to do (does he see any good in Israel at all?) and I am not sure how helpful that is - in the real world that sort of polarisation just does that it polarises and seperates.

Like I said I have visited the area several times, makes me no expert, but I have met both Arabs and Jews and this is for sure, jaw jaw is better than war war ................and the way Turkey is moving right now ought to set alarm bells ringing in the West, NATO and Israel.

We need positive dialogue....based on mutual respect and a degree of toleration for the others point of view in that part of the world.

Saul

--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

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Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
We need positive dialogue....based on mutual respect and a degree of toleration for the others point of view in that part of the world.

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originally postec by pjkirk:
They are acting in bad faith at least as much as Hamas is. At least the Gazans have an excuse for voting Hamas in - Israel rendered Fatah powerless to govern via many years of stonewalling on everything. If the "right way" hasn't worked, I don't blame them for voting in the "wrong way." Israel doesn't have that excuse. They have the upper hand, they control the situation. The onus is on them to not do evil, and they are clearly failing in that.

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
My point was merely that Doc Tor's assertion - that it was obvious from all news reports that this was a 'protest' - was not in keeping with the news sources I had to hand, which all referred to 'aid'.

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I'm really not sure what to make of this. Are you saying you're incapable of looking at the news and seeing it for what it is, rather than whatever spin they happen to put on it?

Of course the protesters are going to use 'aid' all the time. It puts them in a better light, and the Israelis in a worse one (if that's at all possible now). I never bought into that for a moment, and if you're smart enough to use a computer, I'm surprised you did. As I said: it's a protest march, with ships. The ships might carry aid, but that's not the primary reason for the blockade running - which was breaking the blockade.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
It's fundamentally dishonest to mount a protest, knowing full well it's likely to cause trouble, and dress it up as an aid mission in order to maximise the shock value when 'Israel attacks an aid ship'.

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Originally posted by Hawk:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
It's fundamentally dishonest to mount a protest, knowing full well it's likely to cause trouble, and dress it up as an aid mission in order to maximise the shock value when 'Israel attacks an aid ship'.

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Well, that is kind of the whole point of a protest. This was intended to show that even the most humanitarian aid missions are blocked from Gaza, not just the terrorist smugglers. If they'd just sailed up and down the Gaza coast with empty ships waving banners then it wouldn't have shown anything.

This is the same as other protests where someone does something provocative to show up those reacting to the provocation. Rosa Parks offended many when she sat at the back of the bus. Of course she knew it was going to cause trouble, but the point is that she felt she was in her rights to do so and the trouble was caused by those who reacted so strongly to her behaviour.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
EDIT: And I also said, this is precisely what I don't like about it. It's fundamentally dishonest to mount a protest, knowing full well it's likely to cause trouble, and dress it up as an aid mission in order to maximise the shock value when 'Israel attacks an aid ship'.

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So the next time something gets your goat, you'll make sure your protest is designed to have absolutely zero impact and will inconvenience no one whatsoever to the point of being unnoticeable.

I know the meek will inherit the earth, but

Causing trouble, inconvenience, making a noise, getting heard, is entirely the point of a protest. Unless you think that those whose causes you disapprove of shouldn't have that right, of course, in which case that whirring sound you hear is Voltaire spinning in his grave.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Doc Tor, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't get a chance to read my post of 7 minutes earlier.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Despite your assertions, pretending to be an aid ship and being blockaded is not, in fact, very good proof that aid ships are being blockaded. It's only proof that protestors will be blockaded.

I'm not saying that aid isn't blocked, just that this demonstration failed to make the point. If you wanted to prove that aid wasn't getting through, you would attempt to coordinate aid with the UN and/or the Israeli authorities and then highlight the fact the aid had been denied passage.

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They weren't pretending, they were aid ships. See all the aid on the ships? That's what makes them aid ships.

I think it made a very good point. It's no secret that aid is being denied passage, Israel admits it and says outright that certain types of aid is refused entry (such as concrete and coriander). This wasn't about proving that Gaza is being blockaded, its about highlighting Israel's heavy-handed enforcement of it.

--------------------
“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer

See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts

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Originally posted by Hawk:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Despite your assertions, pretending to be an aid ship and being blockaded is not, in fact, very good proof that aid ships are being blockaded. It's only proof that protestors will be blockaded.

I'm not saying that aid isn't blocked, just that this demonstration failed to make the point. If you wanted to prove that aid wasn't getting through, you would attempt to coordinate aid with the UN and/or the Israeli authorities and then highlight the fact the aid had been denied passage.

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They weren't pretending, they were aid ships. See all the aid on the ships? That's what makes them aid ships.

I think it made a very good point. It's no secret that aid is being denied passage, Israel admits it and says outright that certain types of aid is refused entry (such as concrete and coriander). This wasn't about proving that Gaza is being blockaded, its about highlighting Israel's heavy-handed enforcement of it.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by JoannaP:

quote:

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Originally posted by Hawk:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Despite your assertions, pretending to be an aid ship and being blockaded is not, in fact, very good proof that aid ships are being blockaded. It's only proof that protestors will be blockaded.

I'm not saying that aid isn't blocked, just that this demonstration failed to make the point. If you wanted to prove that aid wasn't getting through, you would attempt to coordinate aid with the UN and/or the Israeli authorities and then highlight the fact the aid had been denied passage.

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They weren't pretending, they were aid ships. See all the aid on the ships? That's what makes them aid ships.

I think it made a very good point. It's no secret that aid is being denied passage, Israel admits it and says outright that certain types of aid is refused entry (such as concrete and coriander). This wasn't about proving that Gaza is being blockaded, its about highlighting Israel's heavy-handed enforcement of it.

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AIUI they also wanted to increase international awareness of the blockade - and they have certainly achieved that.

Is there any word on whether the Israelis found any weapons in the cargo and/or how much of the aid has got to Gaza?

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:

quote:

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Originally posted by redderfreak:
I've read this thread with interest and I agree with Mousethief. Thanks for your posts.

I can't see Israel lifting the siege of Gaza except by force or until they withdraw from the West Bank and a Palestinian state is established. It's like the German occupation of France in World War 2. The occupied West Bank is similar to the Vichy puppet regime of Marshall Petain. The legitimate democratically elected Palestinian government (Hamas)is holed up in Gaza. The Germans regarded France as their rightful property. They regarded the French resistance as terrorism, the same as Israel regards any resistance by the Palestinians to occupation. I know it's not a perfect analogy but there are interesting parallels.

I think there will be no peace until Palestine has its own security to balance Israel's. At the moment they have none.

---

Its a completely barking analogy. Shows a complete detachment from the situation on the ground in my view.

Hamas are not the sugar coated candy sort of guys you'd want to sit down with to do any business with. They have repeatedly said they want to destroy Israel utterly. How can you dialogue with that perspective?

Why is Mahmoud Abbas and his government illegitimate?

Why is Hamas legitimate and the W.Bank government not?

How can any group like Hamas convince the Israelis they are serious about mutual agreements; living next door to each other? (eg. peace!)

Frankly from reading your post the analogy you use (Vichy France )is completely innapropriate and wide of the mark by a long shot. IMO.

As for Mousethief's posts, well, he has a legitimate point of view. He seems to demonise anything Israel seems to do (does he see any good in Israel at all?) and I am not sure how helpful that is - in the real world that sort of polarisation just does that it polarises and seperates.

Like I said I have visited the area several times, makes me no expert, but I have met both Arabs and Jews and this is for sure, jaw jaw is better than war war ................and the way Turkey is moving right now ought to set alarm bells ringing in the West, NATO and Israel.

We need positive dialogue....based on mutual respect and a degree of toleration for the others point of view in that part of the world.

Saul

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
They have repeatedly said they want to destroy Israel utterly. How can you dialogue with that perspective?

How can any group like Hamas convince the Israelis they are serious about mutual agreements; living next door to each other? (eg. peace!)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hawk:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Despite your assertions, pretending to be an aid ship and being blockaded is not, in fact, very good proof that aid ships are being blockaded. It's only proof that protestors will be blockaded.

I'm not saying that aid isn't blocked, just that this demonstration failed to make the point. If you wanted to prove that aid wasn't getting through, you would attempt to coordinate aid with the UN and/or the Israeli authorities and then highlight the fact the aid had been denied passage.

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They weren't pretending, they were aid ships. See all the aid on the ships? That's what makes them aid ships.

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I fail to see why that matters.

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Originally posted by mousethief:
You can't tell other people that getting beaten up is good for them. Good God. Especially if it's your foot on their neck.

They were attempting to deliver aid to Gaza. They had a fairly good notion they were going to be diverted by the IDF. I don't see how those are incompatible, nor how it means they were lying. They wanted to deliver aid to Gaza. Barring that, drum up a lot of international attention for the blockade. Why can't they have both those goals?

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Originally posted by orfeo:
If you'd been reading the thread, you would have seen that I (and others) queried whether the 'aid ships' actually had any genuine intention or expectation that the aid would ever reach Gaza.

Slapping a red cross on the side of your van doesn't make you an ambulance.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
However, my view is that if they were attempting to deliver aid to Gaza, they should have maximised their chances of getting the aid through.

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Originally posted by Hawk:
That's what they did! Your blinkered belief in the UN and Israel ignores the fact that Israel DOES NOT ALLOW much of the aid the ships were carrying to get into Gaza. Whether it's coordinated with the UN or nicely driven into Israel with doffed cap and 'sir, yes, sir' or anything at all, Israel will not let it through. That's the point. This was the ONLY chance much of the aid had of getting into Gaza.

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Why is aid to the Gaza Strip not just brought in through Egypt?

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm sure some of them are.

However, I think it would be very easy for the average Israeli on the street to go: blockade is justified - convoy tried to break blockade - action against convoy is justified, without being prompted to think further about WHAT kind of blockade is justified.

This story, in and of itself, doesn't automatically involve thinking about the nature of the blockade in any detail. The bare fact of a blockade is enough to understand the basics of the story. And I tend to think there wouldn't be much debate at all in Israel about the bare question of whether or not there should be a blockade.

[edit: cross-post, I was replying to mousethief]

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Originally posted by orfeo:
What I am saying is that, in the long term, a 'doffing cap' approach is actually a lot more effective in getting the world to be outraged at what Israel is doing. If you do everything right and STILL can't get perfectly reasonable aid through, that communicates that Israel is behaving badly much more easily than if you do a whole bunch of wrong things.

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