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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: And they're off - UK election rant
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sanityman
Shipmate
# 11598
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daviddrinkell:
I agree with piglet. The BBC does things better than anyone else. Learned but not stuffy, entertaining but not overloaded with razzmattazz.
Agreed - we seem very capable of forgetting that in this country. One hope the nice Mr Cameron is of that opinion when Spawn of Murdoch starts humping his trouser leg.
- Chris.
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Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only the wind will listen - TS Eliot
Posts: 1453 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Certainly less obvious spin than any major US outlet - except maybe NPR. But then maybe I don't see the spin on NPR -- people say it's liberal and I'm pretty liberal. But does Fox interview people from the left and let them have their say without shouting them down? Like fuck.
As opposed to MSNBC's election coverage with Olberman and Matthews? If I didn't know better, I would have thought Rachael Madow was supposed to be the objective one. And they never shouted Buchanan down? I don't know about NPR. I like Garrison Keilor. The rest of it is a bit to pretentious for me. If we were across the pond, I might even call it "posh." Clearly intended for the liberal elite or if we were across the pond, those evil public school educated Tories who hate poor people. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
[ 08. May 2010, 14:02: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
At the moment there are a thousand protestors outside the lib dem meeting, calling for voting reform, chanting "you serve us".
(They seem to be from this organisation.
[ 08. May 2010, 14:30: Message edited by: Think² ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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DWJaddict
Apprentice
# 13866
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Posted
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
- Posted 07 May, 2010 17:08 Profile for St. Punk the Pious Author's homepage Email St. Punk the Pious Send new private message Edit/delete post Reply with quote "I am pleased to see that Dr. Death, Evan Harris, got beat in Oxford West.
The Lib Dems deserve to lose if they run extremist prats like him."
He has been an excellent MP for my area for 13 years - greatly respected and conscientious, and it is a great injustice - something I'm assured by the Bible that God hates- that he has been hounded by self- righteous bigots who cannot distinguish between assisted dying for terminally ill people of sound mind and euthanasia, and because he knowledgeably supports potentially life saving scientific research.
The viciousness and determined ignorance of the leaflets we had though our door from 1. Lynda Rose and even worse 2. A convicted arsonist Animal rights nutter called Mann was appalling.
They decided me to certainly vote for him and I will do so in the next election too, however soon that is.
Posts: 7 | From: wolvercote | Registered: Jul 2008
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
At the moment there are a thousand protestors outside the lib dem meeting, calling for voting reform, chanting "you serve us".
(They seem to be from this organisation.
Looking at their website, one of Unlock Democracy's predecessor organisations is the Communist Party of Great Britain. Not really my idea of a democracy (and the sort of people who, arguably, should be locked up).
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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The Exegesis Fairy
Shipmate
# 9588
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Posted
There was a Take Back Parliament protest today in Trafalgar Square, I believe (their thing is electoral reform, and as far as I can tell that's their only thing).
Ah...no, wait, the protest was organised by those people, who are a coalition of different groups including Unlock Democracy.
Wonder how many turned up?
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I can only please one person a day.
Today is not your day.
Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
Posts: 500 | From: the clear blue sky | Registered: Jun 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It was the same thing, the police wouldn't let them rally in Trafalagar Square, so they moved on then ended up going to Smith Square (? wherever the lib dems were meeting).
They were variously said to be power2010, takebackparliament and Unlock Democracy. Presumably they were working together.
[ 08. May 2010, 16:08: Message edited by: Think² ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
[one of Unlock Democracy's predecessor organisations is the Communist Party of Great Britain. Not really my idea of a democracy (and the sort of people who, arguably, should be locked up). [/QB]
If that is even a half-serious comment as opposed to a feeble attempt at a joke, it has me worried for Britain under the Tories. So much for free speech.
For what it's worth, Unlock Democracy - about which I knew nothing until two minutes ago - is a merger between Charter 88 (by no means a far left pressure group) and the successor body to CPGB. I can't see what's wrong with supporting a good idea whoever else might agree with you.
Otherwise I'd object when the sun shines if Nick Griffin happened to say he liked warm weather.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Yes, of course it was a joke. Communists shouldn't be locked up just for being communists.
That said, I don't regard PR as more democratic than the current system. If anything, it's worse.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
I am pleased to see that Dr. Death, Evan Harris, got beat in Oxford West.
Only just, though. He lost by just 176 votes.
He had a 7683 majority. There was a 6.9% swing against. That sounds like a pretty stiff kicking to me.
DWJaddict posted in Dr Harris' defence:
quote:
He has been an excellent MP for my area for 13 years - greatly respected and conscientious
Ian Paisley Sr's constituents would have said the same of him, but, it didn't prevent him from being an old bellows full of angry wind.
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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Sleepwalker
Shipmate
# 15343
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
The point is that your point actually backs up ken's thesis - industry in the North East was decimated in the 80s just like it was in Scotland, and so the Conservatives have been virtually extinguished in the North East, just as they have been in Scotland.
No, ken said that Scotland had been hit harder. I was saying that was rubbish. How am I backing up ken's 'thesis'?
quote:
I don't think it's the whole story though. Not even well-heeled, middle class Scottish constituencies return Conservatives nowadays.
That's probably because they want to be well-heeled, middle class Scots these days, rather than Brits, and the Tories are the party of the United Kingdom. Scotland should have full independence and the respective MPs removed from Westminster. That way, England would be fairly represented in its own system and the Scots could do what they heck they like.
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Sleepwalker
Shipmate
# 15343
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Diversity among the commentators, or at least a woman doing more then being asked to kick an enlarged IPAD or do highlights once an hour. As I said, I'm so used to it now on both US and Canadian election coverage I found it strikingly weird.
That's just because it wasn't what you're used to seeing. However, there are women all over the BBC. There isn't a day that goes by without a woman presenter in some guise or another. Ethnic minority presenters are rarer but then that may reflect their percentage of the population and/or the degree of aspiration among ethnic minority groups to become TV presenters (of any description).
quote:
Given the amount of strong women characters in British politics, you'd think the BBC would consider maybe some women can do political analysis rather then a bunch of guys?
There aren't a huge number of 'strong women characters' in British politics. It's still a male-dominated area. But just because women are politicians doesn't mean to say that women want to be political pundits. However, if they want to be and they are considered good enough, they are free to be. Black, white or otherwise.
quote:
Looked like an old boys network, or a big glass ceiling is in place.
You mean our telly looks different from yours? Good. That makes life interesting. I hate standardisation.
Posts: 267 | From: somewhere other than here | Registered: Dec 2009
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
In addition to Sleepwalker's comments, it should be noted that the BBC's election coverage marginalises many high-profile presenters, regardless of their sex or ethnicity. The main stuff is done by only three people: David Dimbleby (who's been in the main chair since 1979), the BBC's political editor (who happens at the moment to be Nick Robinson) and one other person to do the interviews (who this time was Jeremy Paxman).
Everyone else has a rather secondary role, which is why you would have seen fairly high profile BBC correspondents stuck out in the provinces reporting on events.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Actually they aren't the first to notice this and its not the normal PC crowd who are saying it either. Apparently it is across the media too not just political commentators although worse there.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DWJaddict:
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
- Posted 07 May, 2010 17:08 Profile for St. Punk the Pious Author's homepage Email St. Punk the Pious Send new private message Edit/delete post Reply with quote "I am pleased to see that Dr. Death, Evan Harris, got beat in Oxford West.
[text deleted]
[Welcome to the Ship. Please take a look at the code thread in Styx, which should help you with how to quote using UBB. - John, Purg Host}
[ 08. May 2010, 18:19: Message edited by: John Holding ]
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Sleepwalker
Shipmate
# 15343
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Actually they aren't the first to notice this and its not the normal PC crowd who are saying it either. Apparently it is across the media too not just political commentators although worse there.
I think she sounds rather bitter, actually. I thought this bit was quite funny:
Another is that there is, at the moment, a generation of younger male political pundits who have formed a peculiarly tight boys’ club: they plug each other, argue with one another in print, give each other name checks on their rounds of the broadcasting studios and generally engage in mutually congratulatory self-promotion. This atmosphere has been fuelled to an extent by the blogosphere which is dominated by male aggression of a particularly puerile kind and which either ignores women altogether or treats them to the sort of abuse that most of us left behind in the primary school playground. The blogging scene might still be a minority interest but its tone is beginning to influence the expectations of those who follow political debate.
What's new about that, exactly?
If she is worried about women only getting 'soft' issues and this has been something of a trend over the last few years, then maybe she might want to write about (in a suitably assertive fashion) the attitudes of women over the last few years. The two might even be connected.
She might then want to go and throw all pink phones in the bin, all pink girls' clothes, all Playboy stuff from W H Smiths, all mothers who wanted to buy padded bras from Primark for their pre-pubescent daughters; all women who want to be Miss World; in short, all the women who have, over the last few years, threatened to undo all the good work done in a previous generation to get us women taken seriously in the first place. There are a lot of women out there, especially younger women, who are seriously in the business of reinforcing stereotypes. It's time someone took some serious action around here.
Not least because I bloody hate pink.
Posts: 267 | From: somewhere other than here | Registered: Dec 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Preach it, sister !
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daviddrinkell:
I agree with piglet. The BBC does things better than anyone else. Learned but not stuffy, entertaining but not overloaded with razzmattazz.
In the short period I watched it I hated it when they visited the boat party which I really didn't get. I think they should have broken it up with an episode of yes prime minister.
I expect we will be having another election sometime before the end of the year. Hopefully without the boat.
[ 08. May 2010, 20:24: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Most people who hit a glass ceiling tend to be bitter in my experience. The fact is she is trained political pundit who is not asked to talk about anything but women's issues yet expertise is largely elsewhere.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Sleepwalker
Shipmate
# 15343
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Preach it, sister !
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 267 | From: somewhere other than here | Registered: Dec 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Just to add
I just glad my neice is a skilled social operator* who at the age of six has seen through the pink thing and gone onto yellow instead. Of course it is a pain to buy her things but at least she has taste.
Jengie
*Not based on this alone, that gal is seriously socially aware.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by daviddrinkell:
I agree with piglet. The BBC does things better than anyone else. Learned but not stuffy, entertaining but not overloaded with razzmattazz.
In the short period I watched it I hated it when they visited the boat party which I really didn't get.
It would have been OK without Andrew Neil.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Sleepwalker
Shipmate
# 15343
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Just to add
I just glad my neice is a skilled social operator* who at the age of six has seen through the pink thing and gone onto yellow instead. Of course it is a pain to buy her things but at least she has taste.
Very good taste!
[ 08. May 2010, 20:39: Message edited by: Sleepwalker ]
Posts: 267 | From: somewhere other than here | Registered: Dec 2009
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Andrew Neil has had a very good election so far. The boat thing was too expensive and rather insensitive given that i) the BBC is supposed to be strapped for cash and ii) (and more importantly) the nation isn't too economically healthy at the moment.
I don't know whether all the guests were interviewed but I'm not sure why we really want to hear the political analysis of Ben Kingsley, Bruce Forsyth, David Baddiel, Richard Madeley or Richard Madeley's daughter.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pottage:
equate not to 1 in 120 but to about 1 in 50.
That equals to about 13 MPs in a pure PR list system. Making certain that Nick Griffin would be a permanent fixture in parliament.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
In Scotland we have the additional member system. We've had it for about nine years now, it works well. It's particularly good at redressing the problems which FPTP causes, because the parties which do badly on the FPTP proportionately recoup their fortunes on the regional list. The one hiccup with the system was caused by a very badly designed second ballot paper at the last election, and that has been fixed now.
You have both a constituency MSP and choice of list MSPs in the larger region, which actually works very well, as if your constituency MSP doesn't share your views, there's usually a regional list one who does, who you can choose to write to.
No Nazis or BNP have been elected. In the first parliament under the system, we did get quite a few MSPs from smaller parties (like the Senior Citizens Party and Scottish Social Party) but now the novelty has worn off, we just have SNP, Lib, Lab, Conservative and Greens and an independent - fewer parties than you'll see at Westminster. We've had either government by coalition or minority government, since the system started and the sky hasn't fallen.
It's really very weird to hear some of the scaremongering about PR from south of the Border.
L.
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
It's really very weird to hear some of the scaremongering about PR from south of the Border.
Indeed but then the Scots don't use a a pure PR system as you have just said. If the scottish system were adopted in the UK there might be one or two BNP people if that. I have no idea what the Lib Dems support I always assumed it was a pure PR list.
I really dislike the idea of a hated politician getting chuked out by the local people but to return like the living dead via a regional list.
Personally I support a PR system for the upper house where a person can sit for a maximum of 2 terms (8 years?) but also their party has to show a certain level of support (5%?) before the party is eligible for a seat in the upper house.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Indeed but then the Scots don't use a a pure PR system as you have just said. If the scottish system were adopted in the UK there might be one or two BNP people if that. I have no idea what the Lib Dems support I always assumed it was a pure PR list.
I really dislike the idea of a hated politician getting chuked out by the local people but to return like the living dead via a regional list.
They are for STV in multi-member constituencies which isn't a party list system. It's not a bad system either, however the system used in Scotland and Wales has been tested and works well, and I cant see why that couldn't be used in England as well. It would certainly tackle the problem of what happens to third parties, but without losing the good side of having truly local constituency MPs.
As for 'hated politicians' returning via the list, I haven't seen that but I have seen the opposite. When parties deselect popular politicians they can make a comeback via putting themselves as individuals on the regional lists - Margo Macdonald being a good example in my area.
L.
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Another question from across the pond.
As best as I can tell, the Lib-Dems are somewhat of a coalition themselves. Wouldn't it cause something of debate among themselves about acceptable terms for a coalition? I'm still not entirely sure what separates the Lib Dems from the other parties. Granted, I've only read the web sites and wikipedia articles.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
Here is a short article from the BBC about the effect of PR on New Zealand politics. It is interesting to note that smaller parties know not to push their agenda too hard, and the electorate recognise that fact.
Parties here - major and minor - still fall on the left or right of the spectrum. The big two under FPTP - Labour and National - are still with us. There are also, however left and right-wing alternatives. Voting here is rather like choosing one's ice cream, and then choosing a topping to go with it.
The Lib Dems should note that a radical centrist party existed under FPTP, but it did not survive the change to PR.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Wouldn't the same thing be accomplished with a Single Transferable Vote system?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Question from an American: Why so few Conservative MPs from Scotland? Is Scotland just that more left wing?
quote:
Anglican't's reply:Back in the 1950s, the Conservatives routinely got half the vote in Scotland. They've been squeezed by the other parties and the de-industrialisation of the 1970s/1980s is said to have hit Scotland particularly hard.
Having lived in Scotland in the 1990s (where I studied Scottish history), my opinion is that the Conservatives are seen as an English party, or more specifically, a party that represents the British establishment, which Scots have never been entirely aligned to, and in recent years have become increasingly detached from.
It is more or less true, as Anglican't says, that the Conservatives got close to half the vote in Scotland in the 50s (in fact, they outpolled the Labour Party in every election in that decade). That was, however, a high-water mark. They generally did worse in the late 19th and the early 20th centuries, and, of course, their share of the Scottish vote has consistently declined since the 50s.
In short, in England, the Conservatives were (and perhaps are still) the party of the traditional establishment. In Scotland, they were (and are) a party that stands for another country's continued link to it. I think they have always been slightly foreign. Perhaps their strong performance in the 1950s is because they had recently swallowed bits of the Liberal Party, who tended to be stronger in Scotland.
I think it must be true that Scotland is overall more left-wing than England (although this is a gross generalisation) as despite the Conservatives' low support, no centre-right alternative has emerged to threaten them (NB: I have heard that the SNP were originally right-wing and nicknamed the Tartan Tories, but I understand that they were very much a fringe party then).
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Another question from across the pond.
As best as I can tell, the Lib-Dems are somewhat of a coalition themselves. Wouldn't it cause something of debate among themselves about acceptable terms for a coalition? I'm still not entirely sure what separates the Lib Dems from the other parties. Granted, I've only read the web sites and wikipedia articles.
The party stands for liberty of the individual. Obviously, that creates a tension between those who see the State as having a role in empowering individual liberty, and those who think such a belief is an oxymoron.
The party itself was created by a merger of the SDP (an offshoot of the Labour Party, and which tended to the former) and Liberal Party (who tended to the latter), and if one looked closely, one could see that the party still retained those two distinct wings.
So yes, I'm absolutely sure that a furious debate is taking place in the Lib Dem rank and file. When I was an active party member, coalition with the Tories would have been unthinkable: but that was partly because they were considered such a bunch of arseholes at the time.
[ 09. May 2010, 04:09: Message edited by: Cod ]
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Sleepwalker
Shipmate
# 15343
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Pottage:
equate not to 1 in 120 but to about 1 in 50.
That equals to about 13 MPs in a pure PR list system. Making certain that Nick Griffin would be a permanent fixture in parliament.
He could even hold the balance of power, which is a scary thought.
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I think Cod's analysis of the Conservative situation in Scotland is spot on.
As someone who lived in Scotland during the 1980s, my personal impression is that the Poll Tax debacle did a lot of harm. It was tested out in Scotland ahead of the rest of the UK and was done in a very ham-fisted way. The regulations hadn't been properly drafted and difficulties were being ironed out on the hoof as it were.
For instance, the regulations made one "person" in each "household" the responsible person for the whole "household" In student halls of residence the person whose surname came first alphabetically was "responsible" for everyone in the Halls. This not only fomented student unrest, it horrified the parents of students, who tended to be the sort of middle-aged well-to-do people who might have been right-of-centre politically themselves.
In my own case my landlord was "responsible" for me because I was renting out the flat above his business. I had dutifully given him all my details but, as I didn't have a middle name, I'd left the "middle-name" bit blank. The form was bounced back and he was given a short period of time to either fill in a middle name for me, or confirm definitely that I didn't have one. Unfortunately I was on holiday and he couldn't contact me. He was told that he would be fined if he didn't provide the information before I returned from holiday. He was able to contact one of my friends, who didn't know either, but she was able to ask around other friends. I came back from holiday to find lots of people dismayed that my landlord had been threatened with a fine.
I could list lots of similar situations within my own knowledge.
Lots of law-abiding, mildly a-political Scottish people found themselves threatened with fines etc under the Poll Tax. I think it changed something in the political consciousness. There was a Spitting Image sketch of Maggie Thatcher raking her nails down a map of Scotland, calling it "the testing ground."
I think the ironing out of the Poll Tax legislation in Scotland alienated a lot of Scots who might not have had particularly strong views re the Conservatives prior to that.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Another question from across the pond.
As best as I can tell, the Lib-Dems are somewhat of a coalition themselves. Wouldn't it cause something of debate among themselves about acceptable terms for a coalition? I'm still not entirely sure what separates the Lib Dems from the other parties. Granted, I've only read the web sites and wikipedia articles.
The party stands for liberty of the individual. Obviously, that creates a tension between those who see the State as having a role in empowering individual liberty, and those who think such a belief is an oxymoron.
The party itself was created by a merger of the SDP (an offshoot of the Labour Party, and which tended to the former) and Liberal Party (who tended to the latter), and if one looked closely, one could see that the party still retained those two distinct wings.
So yes, I'm absolutely sure that a furious debate is taking place in the Lib Dem rank and file. When I was an active party member, coalition with the Tories would have been unthinkable: but that was partly because they were considered such a bunch of arseholes at the time.
I'm completely furious that they're even SPEAKING to the conservatives. What was the point, all those years, of tactical voting (where a Labour supporter votes LibDem in those areas where labour has no chance, in order to prevent the tories getting in) if they're now picking up the long spoons and settling down to supper????
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
As best as I can tell, the Lib-Dems are somewhat of a coalition themselves. Wouldn't it cause something of debate among themselves about acceptable terms for a coalition?
Yes, they have a fairly broad spectrum of views and Nick Clegg is going to have quite a struggle to find a solution that works for his party. One MP has already said that if the Lib Dems go in with the Conservatives, she would go back to Labour, where she came from originally. (They had a selection of Liberal comments on the BBC site yesterday which I can't now find.) I suspect she may not be the only one.
It is uncertain ground and Nick Clegg will have to prove he is a skilled enough politician to hold his party together without their losing faith in him and seeing it as selling out. A Con-Lib alliance would be hard work.
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Andrew Neil has had a very good election so far. The boat thing was too expensive and rather insensitive given that i) the BBC is supposed to be strapped for cash and ii) (and more importantly) the nation isn't too economically healthy at the moment.
I don't know whether all the guests were interviewed but I'm not sure why we really want to hear the political analysis of Ben Kingsley, Bruce Forsyth, David Baddiel, Richard Madeley or Richard Madeley's daughter.
What WAS that boat about? Apart from being a complete farce? I don't want to see Forsyth even as an entertainer; why would anyone want to hear his views on politics? (When I was feeling vindictive I was hoping the whole thing would sink.)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
Further to Beeswax Altar's question about the Lib Dems, it should be pointed out that the Labour and Conservative parties are coalitions, too.
The Labour party contains (or used to contain) a hard left whose instinct is to nationalise everything that moves and who wept at the demise of the Soviet Union as well as a moderate, Blairite, wing who believe in market-oriented solutions to the provision of public sector services.
Similarly the Conservatives have moderate figures such as Ken Clarke in their ranks alongside much more right-wing people such as Edward Leigh.
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Cod
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True. I remember (when studying a politics paper) that the Tories were a grand coalition of three groups: the Technocrats (right-wing Keynsians), the Patricians (various knights of the shires and other grandees) and the English Nationalists, e.g. Margaret Thatcher. The latter got the upper hand in the 1980s and have never relinquished it - so the theory goes.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Ntot English nationalists so much as Friedman-ite monetarist libertarians.
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Andrew Neil has had a very good election so far. The boat thing was too expensive and rather insensitive given that i) the BBC is supposed to be strapped for cash and ii) (and more importantly) the nation isn't too economically healthy at the moment.
I don't know whether all the guests were interviewed but I'm not sure why we really want to hear the political analysis of Ben Kingsley, Bruce Forsyth, David Baddiel, Richard Madeley or Richard Madeley's daughter.
Agreed. What was worse was that Neill hardly ever allowed his guests to answer a question.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Jay-Emm
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# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
...That equals to about 13 MPs in a pure PR list system. Making certain that Nick Griffin would be a permanent fixture in parliament.
He could even hold the balance of power, which is a scary thought.
Surely if things are that divided that his vote makes a difference (so 250 PartyA, 245 PartyB 12 BNP) then:
Either the issue is so morally neutral that it doesn't matter what the result is
Or
The blame lies just as much with the 248 any could defect and (having not been elected on the evil ticket) presumably some ought to.
In either case the result is the same as if the BNP members were replaced by presumably PartyB, besides you'll also have the Trot's, Greens etc*...
If the worry is some deal like if the BNP vote for Cabbage as the national food then we'll vote for a new holocaust then problems still lie with those making the deal (as well).
*N.B. The KKK did at one point have some unusual alliances so maybe that clause does break down.
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Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells
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# 15431
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
I'm completely furious that they're even SPEAKING to the conservatives. What was the point, all those years, of tactical voting (where a Labour supporter votes LibDem in those areas where labour has no chance, in order to prevent the tories getting in) if they're now picking up the long spoons and settling down to supper????
Well, I don't recall the Lib Dems ever ruling out entering a coalition with the Conservatives. I do recall Nick Clegg susggesting that he couldn't work with Gordon Brown (fair enough - I don't think consensus politics is Gordon's style). On that basis, I would say that a vote for the Lib Dems is precisely that - a vote for the Lib Dems. Wearing FPTP glasses, if your chosen candidate won in your electorate, be happy. It's up to the MPs now to sort out some arrangement that will give us stable government for the next term.
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was phil2357
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FreeJack
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# 10612
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
I'm completely furious that they're even SPEAKING to the conservatives. What was the point, all those years, of tactical voting (where a Labour supporter votes LibDem in those areas where labour has no chance, in order to prevent the tories getting in) if they're now picking up the long spoons and settling down to supper????
Well I don't know why.
Nick Clegg is doing after the election, exactly what he said he would do before the election.
He made it absolutely clear that if the Conservatives had say a 7 point and 50 seat lead over Labour that he would talk to them first.
There is no point in talking to Gordon Brown, there is never any point in talking to Gordon Brown. He is Mr No Compromise, not necessarily a bad thing, but just not workable in this situation, proposing to lead a seven party coalition into inevitable collapse after six months.
Whereas Clegg and Cameron get on personally well. They could easily do a workable deal if they didn't have the left and right fringes of their own party to deal with.
If the LibDems are non co-operative with the largest party in a Hung Parliament then the case for their new PR politics is in doubt.
If we end up with the chaos of an early July election, expect a big squeeze on the LibDems marginal seats from both Conservative and Labour.
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
If you are a Lib Dem you presumably favour electoral 'reform' and proportional representation. If so, I don't see how you can object to a Con-Lib coalition. It has to be one of the options on the cards in the type of parliament that PR inevitably produces.
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Matt Black
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Agreed completely with both of the last two posts; if the Lib Dems can't deliver a stable coalition with the Conservatives, or at least a stable minority Conservative goverment, then they shoot themselves and the case for PR in the foot.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Ender's Shadow
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# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
I'm completely furious that they're even SPEAKING to the conservatives. What was the point, all those years, of tactical voting (where a Labour supporter votes LibDem in those areas where labour has no chance, in order to prevent the tories getting in) if they're now picking up the long spoons and settling down to supper????
Speaking as someone who has been forced to vote for the Liberals as the only alternative to the one party Labour state that is Manchester City Council, the prospect for me, and presumably many others in the same position, of the LibDems cuddling up to their visceral opponents here is equally galling. So get over it - the LibDems have substantial elements of anti-Labour voters as well as anti-Conservative voters; you are a coalition - demonstrate you can act like one or else admit that FPTP is the only solution to avoid the coalitions that you've proved won't work when push comes to shove
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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FreeJack
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# 10612
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Posted
I do wonder if we ever had PR that the Lib Dems won't split back into the Liberal and SDP again.
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
If the Lib Dems can't deliver a stable coalition with the Conservatives, or at least a stable minority Conservative goverment, then they shoot themselves and the case for PR in the foot.
I don't think that's at all true. Another way to argue would be to say that 49% of the electorate voted for centre-left/progressive parties (55% if you add Greens, SNP and Plaid Cymru), but only 36% for the centre-right party. So, from a proportional point of view, a Lab-Lib alliance is the result which most reflects the electorate's wishes. The fact that the Tories are the largest party could be seen as irrelevant if you are interpreting the results on ideological grounds.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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FreeJack
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# 10612
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Posted
You are making the assumption that the Lib Dems are much closer to Labour than the Conservatives. I'm not sure that is actually true.
Labour are looking like very bad losers.
I have been very impressed by the behaviour of the leadership of the Lib Dems, and I have never voted for them in my life. (They seem to have offended quite a lot of their own voters in the process.)
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