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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: And they're off - UK election rant
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
I wonder if the Queen liked Mr. Brown? I wonder if she likes Mr. Cameron? I know it doesn't matter, but still, interesting.
It has been rumoured that the Queen has got on better with Labour prime ministers than with Conservative prime ministers. I don't know whether there is any truth in that.
A programme about the monarchy showed an audience between the Queen and Mr Brown (when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer) and he behaved, in my opinion, disgracefully, so I don't know how their relations were. I suspect she got along well with Harold Macmillan and Sir Alec Douglas-Home.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Would you want to spend more time than absolutely necessary with Gordon Brown?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
It has been rumoured that the Queen has got on better with Labour prime ministers than with Conservative prime ministers. I don't know whether there is any truth in that.
I don't think she cared much for Blair.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
Wasn't her antipathy for Margaret Thatcher widely known?
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Benny Diction 2:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Benny Diction 2:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I'm surprised at how upset and fearful I feel right now, but I do fear for the economy, my business and my livelihood...
Oh for pity's sake.
Yeah, well, thanks a bundle for belittling how I, my family,my employees and their families are feeling right now...
I'm not belittling how you feel. Just remember that there are potentially tens of thousands of public servants who are equally nervous. Funnily enough I'm married to one - a senior nurse of 30 years standing who is probably not regarded as "front line" but child welfare never is "front line" for Tories is it?
I'm certainly afraid that a Tory / LibDem government will push the country back into recession. then we're all screwed - even business owning Tory lovers.
I wasn't particularly making a party-political point; it was my concern that, until this evening, we essentially had no government, with all the potentially dire consequences for the markets and economy. It seemed to me - this time last night - that prospects of a Con-Lib deal were fading and we would have to start the clock again with Lib-Lab negotiations which would drag on for several more days with sterling and the FTSE in freefall in the meantime. Though not exactly dancing in the streets, I'd have felt better if, last night, we'd had a Lib-Lab coalition, but that wasn't going to happen in five minutes. That's what I was upset about.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
... A programme about the monarchy showed an audience between the Queen and Mr Brown (when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer) and he behaved, in my opinion, disgracefully, so I don't know how their relations were. ...
What did he do that was disgraceful?
As for the final audience I thought Brown would be in and out in less than five minutes. The fact that HM gave him 15 seems generous to me. (Nothing personal against Brown. I'd think any outgoing PM would get a short audience.)
The Telegraph reported that the guards saluted him on his way out of the palace. That surely is not correct?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
The reason Brown was saluted even after he resigned was that he is and will remain a Privy Councillor, and therefore still has status under the Order of Precedence.
Cameron isn't a Privy Councillor yet and won't be until he is sworn in and forms a Ministry. Then of course he'll be First Lord of the Treasury and a Privy Councillor.
One remains a Privy Councillor for life.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
Wow. Done and dusted in the space of hours. Now *that's* transition for ya.
The photos look like a family snaps with one's granny ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Cameron isn't a Privy Councillor yet and won't be until he is sworn in and forms a Ministry. Then of course he'll be First Lord of the Treasury and a Privy Councillor.
The Leader of the Opposition is a Privy Councillor and - I think - paid a Cabinet Minister's salary.
Does the same not happen in the Canadian Privy Council?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The Leader of the Opposition is a Privy Councillor and - I think - paid a Cabinet Minister's salary.
Does the same not happen in the Canadian Privy Council?
They pay their public servants in moose meat over here. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Mr. Spouse
Ship's Pedant
# 3353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
doesn't the 'first past the post' system make some people feel that their votes aren't worthwhile? From 1979 - 1997, I wonder how many left-wing people in Scotland or Wales, or in safe seats (held by any party) in England felt that 'they may as well not bother voting' under FPTP.
{Holds up hand}
That was the case in every election I voted in when I lived in Salford. Since moving further north I am now in a relatively marginal seat, so my vote does count, so long as it's for one of the two main parties. "Vote orange or green, get blue" is the general rule of thumb and exactly what happened last week.
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Try to have a thought of your own, thinking is so important. - Blackadder
Posts: 1814 | From: Here, there & everywhere | Registered: Sep 2002
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
Her Maj staring angrily at Cammy. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
Her Maj staring angrily at Cammy.
Nah. That's a look of great delight mingled with relief.
(A sentiment shared by a proportion of the nation.)
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Mr. Spouse
Ship's Pedant
# 3353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Gordon's resigned and gone to the palace.
I noticed he waited until 7:16 before coming out of No.10. Sarah was probably listening to The Archers on Radio 4. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Try to have a thought of your own, thinking is so important. - Blackadder
Posts: 1814 | From: Here, there & everywhere | Registered: Sep 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
Her Maj staring angrily at Cammy.
Or possibly: 'Which one are you? Mr Eden or Mr Wilson? At least you're not that dreadful woman.'
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Cameron isn't a Privy Councillor yet and won't be until he is sworn in and forms a Ministry. Then of course he'll be First Lord of the Treasury and a Privy Councillor.
The Leader of the Opposition is a Privy Councillor and - I think - paid a Cabinet Minister's salary.
Nicholas Witchell was reading the actual press releases live from the quad at Buckingham Palace, and the confirmation of Cameron's appointment referred to him as "The Right Honourable David Cameron". I'm pretty sure Right Hon. is reserved for Privvy Councillors.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
I warn you not to be ordinary
I warn you not to be young
I warn you not to fall ill
I warn you not to get old.
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
David Cameron was already a member of the Privy Council, as are some other members of the Conservative 'Shadow' Cabinet and the Leader and 'Shadow' Chancellor of the Lib Dems. The Leader of Opposition is by convention always a Privy Councillor.
Any proposed members of the Cabinet, and some senior proposed Ministers of State, will be appointed to the Privy Council at a meeting held for the purpose shortly.
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
We should get details of the deal by midnight.
But the Beeb are reporting probably Clegg as deputy PM and 4 other Lib Dem ministers, inheritance tax threshold rise deferred, increase in the personal tax allowance, still 6 billion cuts this year, referendum on voting reform and a fixed term parliament.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
But will the LibDem party hold? Will any LibDem MP's leave LibDem for Labour or someone else?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jigsaw
Shipmate
# 11433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
I warn you not to be ordinary
I warn you not to be young
I warn you not to fall ill
I warn you not to get old.
Good call. Very appropriate to remember that right now. It didn't work then- will it work now?
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You are not alone in this.
Posts: 743 | From: Snorbens, UK | Registered: May 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Initially, I don't think people will break ranks. the Tories seems to have given the Lib Dems a *very* good deal. Nick Clegg is confirmed as deputy PM by the palace - and there will be another 4 lib dem cabinet ministers. [It has been said on Newsnight that David Law (lib dem) has got education.]
The basic deal summary is this:
quote:
The Lib Dems have agreed to drop plans for a "mansion tax", while the Conservatives have ditched their pledge to raise the inheritance tax threshold to £1m. The new administration will scrap Labour's planned rise in National Insurance but some of the benefits will go to reducing income tax thresholds for lower earners.
Plus five year fixed term parliaments have been confirmed. Has been agreed there will be a referendum on any further transfer of power to Europe.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Just heard, Lib Dems are getting 20 seats in government ! 5 in cabinet, and *15* others. Danny Alexander maybe getting a cabinet seat as minister for Scotland.
[ 11. May 2010, 22:32: Message edited by: Think² ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
(That's a fifth of the available posts - with Lib Dems making up a sixth of the overall mps of the coallition government and closer to a fifth in terms of share of the vote.)
It also means a third of their MPs will end up in government.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
Having a LibDem Secretary of State for Scotland is a good idea. A Tory would be untenable. The LibDems have 11 seats in Scotland, the Tories only 1 seat.
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Yes that makes alot of sense. Both leaders taking a huge risk with this - fully committing to the coallition. No half measures.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
(That's a fifth of the available posts - with Lib Dems making up a sixth of the overall mps of the coallition government and closer to a fifth in terms of share of the vote.)
It also means a third of their MPs will end up in government.
Good move by Cameron. It'll mean that the Lib Dems' hands are dipped in the blood of spending cuts. They can't claim at a later date that they were really against them.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
I like a lot of what I hear so far. From Cameron's speech and the policy proposals announced so far, it sounds like it could be a bit of "Red Tory" and a bit of "Orange Book", with some much-needed political/institutional reform thrown in. We will have to wait and see what comes out when the details emerge and the budget cuts kick in, but for now I am mildly, and very cautiously, optimistic.
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Now that they have their own government in Edinburgh Secretary of State for Scotland is almost as much a non-job as SoS Wales.
Add that to the Deputy Prime Minister and what have you? Absolutely nothing so far. Maybe they can be given the Duchy of Lancaster as well. Or Minister without Portfolio. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
If true partners they will get at least one of Home or Foreign Secretary, or Chancellor of the Exchequer. If the Tories aren't prepared to drop one of those great offices then we know who wears the trousers.
If mere junior partners, the hired help, they would get at least two or three of the relatively important Cabinet jobs such as Lord Chancellor, Defence, Health, Education, Justice (if they keep that innovation) or the other Treasury posts and a couple of other senior positions.
If they don't even get those, if its all junior positions and placeholders, then they've been shafted.
I sort of hope they do get Wales though because then we can use that great quote from "man for all seasons"
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
Well, I, for one, will say thank heavens. At least it has the potential to be a stable and effective government in the short term. It was a pity that the electorate didn't give the Conservatives a working majority in the first place!!
The last time the Conservatives took over from Labour the economy was in ruins - looks like history is repeating itself!! If both parties to the coalition can see the need for tough action, we might see some progress.
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Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I agree with TonyK, and say good luck to them.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
On a point of history, this is the first time the UK Liberals will have been in Cabinet in 65 years.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
The last time the Conservatives took over from Labour the economy was in ruins - looks like history is repeating itself!!
It seems to be a widely held view among Conservatives that Labour governments leave behind an economy damaged by over-spending. I remember hearing Conservative politicians in 1997 who were keen to emphasise how the economy was in good shape then. No doubt, at the next election, the conditions prevailing now will be discussed.
My perception is that Conservative governments tend to leave behind public services starved of resources - junior doctors worn out by 100-hour weeks and exhausted teachers leaving the profession. I wonder if the economic situation in '97 was linked to the dot.com bubble, rising house prices and relatively unregulated financial services - we know how those trends worked out.
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
If both parties to the coalition can see the need for tough action, we might see some progress.
By 'tough action', do you mean 'deep cuts in public services'? I wonder if there is still a debate to be had about why, and whether, these are necessary.
Conservatives seem to say that deep cuts now are needed because of public spending. I wonder if we'd be talking about deep cuts if the banking crisis hadn't happened. If £6 billion of cuts are the only option, then presumably banks could not afford to pay us back a small proportion of what we paid them in the bailout - if that's the case, how could they pay £5 billion of bonusus in 2009? If £6 billion of savings are unavoidable, why isn't more being done to tackle between £2.1 billion to £6.6 billion a year in corporate tax avoidance (or the up to £25 billion a year of tax avoidance by corporations and individuals?)
Having said all of that, I hope that our new government live up to their supporters' best hopes, and not my worst fears. May they govern with 'tough minds and tender hearts' and may God's wisdom guide them.
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
Having said all of that, I hope that our new government live up to their supporters' best hopes, and not my worst fears. May they govern with 'tough minds and tender hearts' and may God's wisdom guide them.
Alwyn, you remain a better person than me.
I have little doubt that they will live up to my worst fears. My only doubt is whether they will get the blame for doing so or be able to sell the confidence trick that it's not our fault, it's the awful economy the Labour government left us that made us do it...
My only tiny bit of hope comes from the fact that the evidence thus far is that the LibDems may be a moderating influence... but sadly not enough, I fear.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
The last time the Conservatives took over from Labour the economy was in ruins - looks like history is repeating itself!! If both parties to the coalition can see the need for tough action, we might see some progress.
But the last time the economy was close to ruin was in 1992, when the Tories unexpectedly won and had to sort out their own mess. Who can forget the Spitting Image sketch portraying them as outgoing tenants trashing the place and then waking up wrecked the next morning and realising their lease had been renewed? The memory still raises a
Alwyn - sounds like your experience of Tories only goes as far back as Thatcherism - lets hope it won't be as bad as that and we may even see (in some respects) a return to the 'consensus' politics of the previous generation. Only 'New', like wot Nick said.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
My only doubt is whether they will get the blame for doing so or be able to sell the confidence trick that it's not our fault, it's the awful economy the Labour government left us that made us do it...
I'm sure that some Conservatives will use that argument. As you'll realise, my previous post was partly about whether there is any chance of a debate about whether the deep cuts are inevitable or a choice. I wonder if people will make comparisons between Labour telling us 'there is no alternative' to participation in the invasion of Iraq in 2003, and the Conservatives telling us that 'there is no alternative' to deep cuts in 2010? Surely, by now, people are sceptical of 'TINA' arguments by British governments?
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Not those who are economically literate.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
Before people get suck into Nick Clegg for 'betraying the left', lets look at the alternatives. Personally my heart's with a coalition of the left, but my head says it wouldn't have worked. A leftwing rainbow alliance would have taken weeks to put together and would have been horribly ineffective and unwieldy. And it would have involved exempting Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland from cuts, which would (quite rightly) have pissed off Labour MPs sitting for deprived English constituencies. IMO it would have collapsed within a year without really achieving anything, leaving the electorate to punish the left and return Cameron with a massive majority. In other words the Lib Dems would have been damned whatever they did. As it is, Lib Dem involvement will reign in the worst aspects of a Cameron government, while the convergence of libertarian strains within both parties might be quite positive on things like civil liberties. Labour needs to be out of office for a while to sort itself out and might bounce back in five years aided by defections from the Lib Dems and an unpopular government.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
On a point of history, this is the first time the UK Liberals will have been in Cabinet in 65 years.
On another point of history, there is a worrying precedence for the Lib Dems in Lloyd George, the Liberal Prime Minister who opted to lead his Tory-Liberal wartime coalition into the general election of 1918. LG remained as Prime Minister at the mercy of a massive Tory majority and the Liberals split and never recovered.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Oh happy day - sense has prevailed! Finally, hope is restored to the nation!
I honestly doubted that Clegg would do the right thing for a while there. Fortunately it seems that Labour, through some pathetic negotiating and a lack of desire to share power, have inadvertantly done the honourable thing and fallen on their swords.
Let the project to rebuild Britain as a place where liberty rules and the nanny state is quashed begin!
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
...the confidence trick that it's not our fault, it's the awful economy the Labour government left us that made us do it...
What you call "confidence trick", most people call "the truth". The state of the economy does require hard action, even Labour were saying that in the run-up to the election.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Clint Boggis
Shipmate
# 633
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Posted
Tories got 36% of the votes and LibDems got 23%. This means that together they represent 59% of those who voted, many of whom will not have considered the other party as their second choice. Still, coalition means lumping parties together by merging their policies and adding their seats or votes to justify a democratic mandate.
The LibDems represent nearly 39% of this combined electoral mandate, which makes comments like 'the tail wagging the dog' look rather silly. Of course they'd rather have a couple of dozen more lobby fodder types to help push through a Tory legislative programme without any loss of power or influence.
So if the LibDems don't get 20%-30% of the more powerful ministerial jobs, they'll have been sold short.
.
Posts: 1505 | From: south coast | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mr. Spouse
Ship's Pedant
# 3353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Let the project to rebuild Britain as a place where liberty rules and the nanny state is quashed begin!
I think I must have missed that bit. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Try to have a thought of your own, thinking is so important. - Blackadder
Posts: 1814 | From: Here, there & everywhere | Registered: Sep 2002
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
Out of curiousity, does anyone else find the tendency to substitute "progressive" for "left-wing" (as in "the progressive alliance") annoying? Left-wingers I like and understand. Progessives just seem to be people who will supporting anything under the sun provided its new, shiny and fashionable, which was always New Labour's most annoying tendency. Maybe its just me...
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Before people get suck into Nick Clegg for 'betraying the left', lets look at the alternatives. Personally my heart's with a coalition of the left, but my head says it wouldn't have worked. A leftwing rainbow alliance would have taken weeks to put together and would have been horribly ineffective and unwieldy. And it would have involved exempting Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland from cuts, which would (quite rightly) have pissed off Labour MPs sitting for deprived English constituencies. IMO it would have collapsed within a year without really achieving anything, leaving the electorate to punish the left and return Cameron with a massive majority. In other words the Lib Dems would have been damned whatever they did. As it is, Lib Dem involvement will reign in the worst aspects of a Cameron government, while the convergence of libertarian strains within both parties might be quite positive on things like civil liberties. Labour needs to be out of office for a while to sort itself out and might bounce back in five years aided by defections from the Lib Dems and an unpopular government.
Yes, but Labour had to offer the country a back-up plan in case the lib-con talks fell apart. They couldn't just go, oh well, nevermind, your problem, we're off. Brown resigned as soon as it was obvious Cameron could get a working deal - in fact I think he timed that to make sure the vacillating would not continue longer and they'd have a confirmed deal by the time the markets opened.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Out of curiousity, does anyone else find the tendency to substitute "progressive" for "left-wing" (as in "the progressive alliance") annoying?
Yes, hugely. Especially since in this case, "progressive" would actually have meant "no change"...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
Of course they did, and Nick Clegg was right to talk to Labour as well. In fact Labour have been pretty dignified all in all. Its just a pity a Lib-Lab coalition couldn't work.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Clint Boggis
Shipmate
# 633
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Of course they did, and Nick Clegg was right to talk to Labour as well. In fact Labour have been pretty dignified all in all. Its just a pity a Lib-Lab coalition couldn't work.
Yes, of course Clegg was right to explore all possible alternatives and did as he said he would be talking first to the party with the highest vote. Brown was dignified and behaved decently and properly.
I'd have preferred a Lib-Lab pact but it came down to numbers. Maybe it's a good thing it happened like that as it made the outcome easier to decide and I'm hopeful that it'll work out well.
Cameron seems ok (for a Tory) and being kept in check by LibDems seems not too bad a result. What leverage does Clegg have though if he's promised LibDem support for a full parliament?
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Posts: 1505 | From: south coast | Registered: Jun 2001
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