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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Why are the tea partiers so angry?
Grammatica
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

Quite a lot they can do about it. It's called tariffs.

Historically tariffs have been the usual precursor to a sudden lurch into tyranny.

Sorry, I find that an odd conclusion to draw. In US history, Henry Clay's "American System," which included tariffs (to protect our "infant manufactures") and Federally-sponsored infrastructure improvements, was the precursor to decades of prosperity.
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MerlintheMad
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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
Over-simplification. ALL retirement nest eggs have not gone "bust". Mine hasn't and it isn't even a big one. I lost a lot of value, but it is on the way back up.

Same with me. Our portfolios, unlike some, are apparently diversified and not leveraged. And of course, we can wait awhile for the market to go back up because we didn't happen to retire in August 2008. How smart of us.
Actually, my "retirement" was already a four year-old fact by 2008. My income has dropped with the lost value of my investments. But in time, if history is any gauge, my income will increase. My lifestyle is very straitened. But because I paid off our house, and because we have other property that provides a little income, and because I am conservative and don't gamble with what I cannot afford to lose, we are far, far from suffering: even though we live also, far, far BELOW the so-called poverty line....
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MerlintheMad
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quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
...This supports the idea that when faced with an anxiety-producing set of circumstances or with a weak argument, some people will simply resort to name calling....

If you will note the other posts I have made, I am not glibly tossing the word around. I actually believe that His Oness is fascist in his politics. So far he has amply demonstrated this in his methodology, his "fixes" for the problem of the economic "crisis". And, he is far from alone. I do not view Bush as effectively any better at advocating for "constitutional economics" than our current president is. Apparently the Tea Party agrees, and their anger is mainly fueled by exhausted patience with the antics of BOTH parties....
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Antisocial Alto
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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
Because in the USA people don't starve in the streets unless they are homeless; and people are homeless because they CHOOSE to be.

Actually a lot of the homeless in my city are homeless because of either substance abuse problems or untreated mental illness- a result of being "liberated" when, in the name of individual freedom and lowering taxes, a lot of the mental hospitals were shut down.
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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
I was driving in a university town when I saw a man on a street corner with a sign that read: "Obama is a Nazi, fascist, socialist, communist, anarchist."

I kinda like anarchists. My oldest just graduated from a small university named after a Christian anarchist.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Antisocial Alto:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
Because in the USA people don't starve in the streets unless they are homeless; and people are homeless because they CHOOSE to be.

Actually a lot of the homeless in my city are homeless because of either substance abuse problems or untreated mental illness- a result of being "liberated" when, in the name of individual freedom and lowering taxes, a lot of the mental hospitals were shut down.
Pretty much the same as in Britain when a lot of the psychiatric hospitals were closed in the name of "Car in the Community". Goodness knows the psychiatric hospitals weren't perfect but the community, by and large didn't care and probably couldn't.

People with substance abuse or marginal mental health problems now tend to end up in prison: the prison population has increased as the psychiatric hospitals have closed.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
[qb]Locally, the folks who are talking up the tea party now were complaining about the Patriot act, then.

Hmmmm, yet no protests. Interesting.

And according to the OP, what protests against the Patriot Act would have meant is that the protestors just had some anger issues.

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Erin
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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
...This supports the idea that when faced with an anxiety-producing set of circumstances or with a weak argument, some people will simply resort to name calling....

If you will note the other posts I have made, I am not glibly tossing the word around. I actually believe that His Oness is fascist in his politics. So far he has amply demonstrated this in his methodology, his "fixes" for the problem of the economic "crisis". And, he is far from alone. I do not view Bush as effectively any better at advocating for "constitutional economics" than our current president is. Apparently the Tea Party agrees, and their anger is mainly fueled by exhausted patience with the antics of BOTH parties....
And yet nobody thought about protesting until a darkie won the election. I live in Redneck Wonderland, believe me when I say that racism is one of the things that unites the teabaggers. I have yet to meet a teabagger who didn't, at some point, refer to "that nigger in the White House".

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
I was driving in a university town when I saw a man on a street corner with a sign that read: "Obama is a Nazi, fascist, socialist, communist, anarchist."

It was cold, the windows of the car were up. I wanted to say:

Those are different philosophies, dude. You're in a college town. Read a book! [Big Grin]


sabine

I suppose that starved of the "freedom" to call him a "nigger" in public, this buckshot approach was the next best thing. A strange kind of politically correct prejudice.

Time for a Rowan and Martin moment. "Very interesting .... and also stoopid."

[ 15. June 2010, 23:03: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Antisocial Alto:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
Because in the USA people don't starve in the streets unless they are homeless; and people are homeless because they CHOOSE to be.

Actually a lot of the homeless in my city are homeless because of either substance abuse problems or untreated mental illness- a result of being "liberated" when, in the name of individual freedom and lowering taxes, a lot of the mental hospitals were shut down.
Exactly. This is true across the country, and has been so ever since "deinstitutionalization" in the 70s. Here in L.A, with more than a quarter of a million homeless, around 25% are mentally ill, and another 20% physically disabled. Almost half are families with children-- who, no matter what the failings of their parents, surely had no "choice" in the matter.


L.A. homeless stats

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Papio

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
They were as socialist as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea are democratic.

The North Korean's aren't democratic but Hitler and the Nazis were socialists.
That is absurd.

It is also absurd to claim that Obama is a fascist.

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PataLeBon
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quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

Quite a lot they can do about it. It's called tariffs.

Historically tariffs have been the usual precursor to a sudden lurch into tyranny.

Sorry, I find that an odd conclusion to draw. In US history, Henry Clay's "American System," which included tariffs (to protect our "infant manufactures") and Federally-sponsored infrastructure improvements, was the precursor to decades of prosperity.
And (assuming that I'm remembering correctly) when the US had large tariffs, we actually had a governmental surplus. (Yes, the government was spending LESS money than it was taking in...odd isn't it??)

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
They were as socialist as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea are democratic.

The North Korean's aren't democratic but Hitler and the Nazis were socialists.
By what definition of "socialist"?

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Alfred E. Neuman

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
I was driving in a university town when I saw a man on a street corner with a sign that read: "Obama is a Nazi, fascist, socialist, communist, anarchist."

It was cold, the windows of the car were up. I wanted to say:

Those are different philosophies, dude. You're in a college town. Read a book! [Big Grin]


sabine

I suppose that starved of the "freedom" to call him a "nigger" in public, this buckshot approach was the next best thing. A strange kind of politically correct prejudice...
Exactly. The same ignorant racial prejudice that can no longer find release in favorite epithets (for fear of having their lily-white arses stomped in public) now resort to 'acceptable' bigoted speech with terms like "Fascist". You can always recognize the hate merchants with their tactics of fear. Your individuality is being threatened by the Fascist President! Obamacare will mean Death Panels!

I get a chuckle out of their fall-back position when these jokers are pinned down on their bigotry. It's always some form of fundamentalist patriotism - a return to our founding fathers' true principles or some nebulous dream of rugged "individualism".

[ 16. June 2010, 04:12: Message edited by: Alfred E. Neuman ]

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Zach82
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quote:
By what definition of "socialist"?
The Neocon definition.

Zach

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Janine

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Far-extreme socialism and far-extreme fascism are, functionally, in practical measure, "in the trenches/on the ground", as they would touch me, identical.

-Ism is as -Ism does.

If you think Teabaggers are angry -- have you attended a few big meetingd of them? Where have you gathered your impression? From TV?

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mousethief

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The ones on TV are actors?

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comet

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In my neck of the woods, the tea party sympathisers are not middle class, at least not in the economic sense of the word. They are the big earners. The ones who will actually feel the heat from the health care reform taxes- those who make a quarter mil or more annually. The ones I know are an engineer for BP, a pilot for Continental, and an owner of a large amount of apartment complexes. Oh, and the owner of a very successful river guiding service.

And the folks who think the Palins are economically middle class are just wrong, even before the books and speaking gigs. They live in a neighborhood where the homes are huge and go for multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I also suspect that Erin and Gort are more correct than people want to admit. At least one of the teaparty-esque's I mentioned above I've kicked out of my bar for calling the president a Muslim nigger. In front of a fellow employee who is black, no less.

It's scary.

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Clint Boggis
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quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Far-extreme socialism and far-extreme fascism are, functionally, in practical measure, "in the trenches/on the ground", as they would touch me, identical.

I think there's some truth in this: ordinary people living under one or other system may suffer similar loss of freedom and have more in common with each other than with those living in a democracy. But it's important to realise that they're fundamentally different 'philosophies' - no-one can be both at once. You can't be strongly left-handed AND strongly right-handed.
.

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Trudy Scrumptious

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quote:
Originally posted by Clint Boggis:
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Far-extreme socialism and far-extreme fascism are, functionally, in practical measure, "in the trenches/on the ground", as they would touch me, identical.

I think there's some truth in this: ordinary people living under one or other system may suffer similar loss of freedom and have more in common with each other than with those living in a democracy. But it's important to realise that they're fundamentally different 'philosophies' - no-one can be both at once. You can't be strongly left-handed AND strongly right-handed.
.

I think the "truth" in that is that both are totalitarian systems, and people who perhaps not terribly knowledgeable or sophisticated about political systems and theories are throwing epithets at Obama that, in their minds, are synonymous with "dictator." Of course, in many people's minds, "dictator" means "a leader trying to impose policies I disagree with," despite the fact that that leader can be voted out of office after four years.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
]The North Korean's aren't democratic but Hitler and the Nazis were socialists.

You genuinely don't know what a socialist is, do you?

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Ken

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
I actually believe that His Oness is fascist in his politics.

You are going to have to explain what you mean by "fascist" then because its obviously not what the rest of the world means by it, so your post is incomprehensible to us.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
They were as socialist as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea are democratic.

The North Korean's aren't democratic but Hitler and the Nazis were socialists.

That is absurd.
Not when I read the Nazi platform and Hitler's own words.

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Barnabas62
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Heck, my dad put his life on the line in WW2, fighting fascists. And he was an old-style Labour democratic socialist whose opinion of Stalinists (whether communist or elsewhere) would set your ears on fire. Go figure.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Not when I read the Nazi platform and Hitler's own words.

That may be a rather credulous approach. You should consider that Hitler might not have been completely honest.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Heck, my dad put his life on the line in WW2, fighting fascists. And he was an old-style Labour democratic socialist whose opinion of Stalinists (whether communist or elsewhere) would set your ears on fire. Go figure.

That sounds thoroughly consistent and supportable to me.

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Barnabas62
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That's my point, mdijon.

I've probably mentioned it elsewhere, but my dad also spent some time immediate post-war helping the survivors of concentration camps. That experience scarred him for life. He was a brave, kindly and very decent man, and a total believer in democracies. Thoughtless lumping together of him and folks like him (I have known many) with totalitarian fascists simply because they were old style supporters of the UK Labour party (and therefore must somehow be "evil socialists") really gets under my skin.

[ 16. June 2010, 13:07: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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kankucho
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
They were as socialist as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea are democratic.

The North Korean's aren't democratic but Hitler and the Nazis were socialists.
By what definition of "socialist"?
This one:
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
I was driving in a university town when I saw a man on a street corner with a sign that read: "Obama is a Nazi, fascist, socialist, communist, anarchist."



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kankucho
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...And this one.

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Dafyd
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The media is on the whole right-wing and libertarian. That's because journalists as a class benefit from libertarian policies. And newspaper and media owners as a class benefit from right-wing policies.
Also, the media as a whole benefits from controversy and working up anger.

If people swallow whole what they read in the papers or see in news reports, you'll get right-wing demagogue-led movements.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by sabine:

Those are different philosophies, dude. You're in a college town. Read a book! [Big Grin]


sabine

Sound like he reads textbooks from Texas.

[ 16. June 2010, 15:00: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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mousethief

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Hey, Nick, can you give us that definition?

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Papio

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Thoughtless lumping together of him and folks like him (I have known many) with totalitarian fascists simply because they were old style supporters of the UK Labour party (and therefore must somehow be "evil socialists") really gets under my skin.

Me too.

It gets on my nerves when people do it anyone.

As a democratic, economically socialist, socially libertarian anti-racist, it does rather piss me off when people say I am like Hitler or whatever.

Bollocks I am.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Not when I read the Nazi platform and Hitler's own words.

[Roll Eyes]

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Papio

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So, why did the Nazi's slaughter real socialists and trade unionists, then?

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
So, why did the Nazi's slaughter real socialists and trade unionists, then?

Perhaps because, despite their rhetoric, they were not truly socialist.

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Papio

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
So, why did the Nazi's slaughter real socialists and trade unionists, then?

Perhaps because, despite their rhetoric, they were not truly socialist.
Indeed.

I perhaps should have been clearer that I was not responding to you but to Mere Nick.

As someone said, the National Socialist Party were socialists to about the same degree as the Democratic Republic of Congo is run by the people.

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MerlintheMad
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
I actually believe that His Oness is fascist in his politics.

You are going to have to explain what you mean by "fascist" then because its obviously not what the rest of the world means by it, so your post is incomprehensible to us.
In particular no's 1, 3, 9, 10 and 13

Bush was guilty of no. 1, (arguably) 2, 3, 4, 7, 8 and (arguably) 14.

Between the two of them we have American-made, embryonic (and under His Oness, burgeoning) fascism. It is this trend that the Tea Party (not teabaggers) wants stopped in its tracks. They are at "war" with the status quo in our two-party political system as carried out in the last generation, especially the last c. 20 years....

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
I actually believe that His Oness is fascist in his politics.

You are going to have to explain what you mean by "fascist" then because its obviously not what the rest of the world means by it, so your post is incomprehensible to us.
In particular no's 1, 3, 9, 10 and 13

Bush was guilty of no. 1, (arguably) 2, 3, 4, 7, 8 and (arguably) 14.

Between the two of them we have American-made, embryonic (and under His Oness, burgeoning) fascism. It is this trend that the Tea Party (not teabaggers) wants stopped in its tracks. They are at "war" with the status quo in our two-party political system as carried out in the last generation, especially the last c. 20 years....

I fail to see how you could hang any of those particular qualifiers on Obama. In most every item on the list, Obama and the Democrats would seem to be moving in the opposite direction. Which might possibly give some justification for the "socialist" charge (albeit only in comparison w/ what's gone before) but would seem to completely negate the "fascism" charge. Which items on the list in particular do you see Obama as "burgeoning"?

If the tea baggers were really concerned about "fascism" as defined in your link, they should be delighted with Obama. Rather, as has been noted, they seem on a whole completely unaware of any distinctions between fascism and socialism, but use both interchangeably as code words for "stuff I don't like".

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Not when I read the Nazi platform and Hitler's own words.

Which words? Mein Kampf? He made his hatred of socialists and communists pretty evident there. Or what were you thinking of?

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
The media is on the whole right-wing and libertarian. That's because journalists as a class benefit from libertarian policies. And newspaper and media owners as a class benefit from right-wing policies.

Dunno about USA but in Britain journalists as a class are on the whole left-wing and libertarian. Some years ago - a lot of years ago I admit - someone did some sort of survey of political opinions in a few dozen posh professions and found that journalists and writers were the second-most left wing of them all - just behind artists and a little ahead of scientists IIRC. (the most right-wing were airline pilots)

However the ownership of the mass-media is overwhelmingly conservative. And the political line of newspapers represents the views of the owners, not the journalists.

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Papio

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Some years ago - a lot of years ago I admit - someone did some sort of survey of political opinions in a few dozen posh professions and found that journalists and writers were the second-most left wing of them all - just behind artists and a little ahead of scientists IIRC. (the most right-wing were airline pilots)

Just how credible was this study?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Dunno about USA but in Britain journalists as a class are on the whole left-wing and libertarian.

Libertarian is right-wing. In this country at least.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
I actually believe that His Oness is fascist in his politics.

You are going to have to explain what you mean by "fascist" then because its obviously not what the rest of the world means by it, so your post is incomprehensible to us.
In particular no's 1, 3, 9, 10 and 13

Bush was guilty of no. 1, (arguably) 2, 3, 4, 7, 8 and (arguably) 14.

That looks like a very good description of fascism to me. I woudl say that because it pretty much agrees with my own which I wrote a few years back and put on a website aso I wouldn't have to keep on posting it in threads like this.

And of the 14 points listed I'd find Bush guilty of 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, and (as you say arguably) 14; and Obama only of 9. Which one is the fascist then?

And from what we can gqather over hear tyhe teabaggers seem to favour 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12 (of course we wouldn't spot 13 or 14 until they actually got into power, so it is good they never will)

Just to show I am an an equal opportunity judgementalist, I would say Margaret Thatcher's government in UK was guilty of 1, 3, arguably 6, 9, 10, 11 and maybe 12 - when John Major got in 11 improved but 13 came in. And the recent UK Labour governments 7, 8, 9, 11, and a little 13 (worse under Blair than Brown)

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Ken

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Dunno about USA but in Britain journalists as a class are on the whole left-wing and libertarian.

Libertarian is right-wing. In this country at least.
Not even entirely in your country. You have, or once had activists like Daniel DeLeon, Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, Eugene Debs, Emma Goldman, Henry Thoreau, Joe Hill, Lucy Parsons Noam Chomsky, Woodie Guthrie. All left-libertarians. Plus a whole bundle of writers like Kim Stanley Robinson or Ursula K LeGuin or Sam Clemens AKA Mark Twain.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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mousethief

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Calling Mark Twain a libertarian is like calling Plato an existentialist. The category doesn't fit his situation in time.

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ken
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People like Parsons and Hill would have called themselves libertarians. Chomsky would prefer "anarchist".

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Ken

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lilBuddha
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First recorded use of the term is from 1789 a bit older than I would have thought.

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Hawk

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# 14289

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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
In particular no's 1, 3, 9, 10 and 13

You'll have to give a bit more detail on those ones. As far as I can see Obama isn't guilty of any of them. He is no more nationalistic than you have to be to get elected in America, and less so than the previous regime. He is actively opposed to 3, even though his early bipartisan idealism hasn't been possible under fire, though he has consistently worked to make friends internationally, rather than entrenching opposition. Regarding 9, he is dragging BP over the coals and has also severely damaged corporate interests with his healthcare reform. I don't know about 10, but I haven't heard anything about labour unions being suppressed by Obama. And there is no sign of 13 either: indeed much less than the Bush nepotism.

In fact, your post, if taken at face value, would seem to be an excellent argument for why Obama is the opposite of a fascist!

(Also, I've been meaning to ask. Is the Right's new pet name for Obama pronounced "One-ness" (as in he's Number 1) or pronounced "O-ness" (as in a cute yet meaningless riff on the first letter of his name). I like to keep abreast of American slang.)

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lilBuddha
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Hush now, Hawk. Logic and reason have no place in political discussions!

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