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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Why are the tea partiers so angry?
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
(Also, I've been meaning to ask. Is the Right's new pet name for Obama pronounced "One-ness" (as in he's Number 1) or pronounced "O-ness" (as in a cute yet meaningless riff on the first letter of his name). I like to keep abreast of American slang.)
Also the last letter of Barry Soterro.
Those crazy far-right loons and their conspiracy garbage!
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Infinite Penguins.
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Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Hush now, Hawk. Logic and reason have no place in political discussions!
They do when they are on our side!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Thank you, Papio. I do not properly keep up with the nutters and thought "Barry" was a dismissive nickname for Barack. So Barry Soetoro is a hoax. And even if true, is based upon an inaccurate understanding of US citizenship. How can anyone with an I.Q. over 50 make any of these claims? Oh, wait...
[ 16. June 2010, 19:09: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
"Barry" was Barack's nickname in younger years. When it's used today, it tends to be used dismissively (think "Junior") much like "W" was used for Bush, even when not explicitly connected to the birthers.
"Oneness" has a bit of an arc to it's evolution, that I believe starts with Oprah saying "he's the One!" when she gave her endorsement, and goes on to some rather humorous and light-heared jibes McCain made about that (Ah, how I miss the witty McCain 1.0) as well as a couple of SNL skits if memory serves.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
Interesting opinion piece by J.M. Bernstein of the New School of Social Research on this subject here.
The author's thesis is that a number of American myths - and in particular some favored by conservatives - have been exposed as romanticized nonsense. The anger is not so much about policy as it is about the facts getting far too inconvenient for the myths to be sustained.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
"Barry" was Barack's nickname in younger years. When it's used today, it tends to be used dismissively (think "Junior") much like "W" was used for Bush, even when not explicitly connected to the birthers.
I think, though, that by the end of his 2nd term, it came to be almost an endearment.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
When someone refers to Obama as "Barry", Barack Hussein Obama or "Oneness" you're usually on safe ground assuming that if they are not themselves a teabagger (hey--they originally called themselves that, and I'm all about self-identification!), are at least a fellow traveler.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
And here is a case in point.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Thank you, Papio. I do not properly keep up with the nutters and thought "Barry" was a dismissive nickname for Barack. So Barry Soetoro is a hoax. And even if true, is based upon an inaccurate understanding of US citizenship. How can anyone with an I.Q. over 50 make any of these claims? Oh, wait...
Personally, I think it has something to do with being so desperate to find a reason to hate Obama so, that isn't just cos he is black, that they desperately cling to any wild conspiracy theory or bogus internet legend hoping that they can point to it and say "see? *that's* why we hate him! It's NOT just because he is black, honest!"
In other words, they hate him because he is black, and don't even have the courage to own that.
I also note that Soetorro is spelled in numerous different ways, depending on which crackpot racist website you are looking at at the time.
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
"His Oh-ness". The deliverer. The Savior of the American dream (that's a laugh). Almost a religious fervor attended his presidential campaign. That has been dented and discolored somewhat, but there is plenty of the fervor left when the devotees inevitably compare His Oness to Bush II, and finish with "It's all Bush's fault".
I have no use for our current administration. I had little or no admiration for our last one: it was simply the lesser of two evils: Gore or Kerry?? Yegods! But did the GOP administer well? Stupid question.
I would like to see them all tossed out and a new way of getting leaders chosen: not by popular election at all, but instead by random selection, like jury duty. And you had better have a good reason why you can't serve or there is a hefty fine and maybe some alone time too. The LAST people who should be running this country are the ones that want to badly enough to spend millions and millions of dollars trying to get elected. One year, and you're out and another takes your place. No political careers. Those should become relics of the darkened past....
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Sometimes wine takes precedence over drycleaning the robe.
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Quote by Erin:
quote:
And yet nobody thought about protesting until a darkie won the election. I live in Redneck Wonderland, believe me when I say that racism is one of the things that unites the teabaggers. I have yet to meet a teabagger who didn't, at some point, refer to "that nigger in the White House".
I must live in the next county over. I hear that phrase on a regular basis in public places.
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Simul iustus et peccator
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Not when I read the Nazi platform and Hitler's own words.
Which words? Mein Kampf? He made his hatred of socialists and communists pretty evident there. Or what were you thinking of?
The Nazi platform, particularly points 10-17.
What caused me to go look at those were when I read The Socialist Roots of Naziism. It's chapter 12 in Friedrich Hayek's book The Road to Serfdom.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
I would like to see them all tossed out and a new way of getting leaders chosen: not by popular election at all, but instead by random selection, like jury duty. And you had better have a good reason why you can't serve or there is a hefty fine and maybe some alone time too.
If "I don't want to" isn't a good enough reason then my sympathies would be with the armed rebellion that would surely arise.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
The Nazi platform, particularly points 10-17.[/QB]
You might need to consider the possibility that a party might have a stated policy which appears to be socialist, but in fact be lying. This possibility might gain further traction if you consider that logic and telling the truth weren't Nazi fortes.
In any case, if all it takes is one socialist policy you could put any country with any form of state welfare down as socialists.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Not when I read the Nazi platform and Hitler's own words.
Which words? Mein Kampf? He made his hatred of socialists and communists pretty evident there. Or what were you thinking of?
The Nazi platform, particularly points 10-17.
10-17?
What is Socialist about points 15, 16 & 17? ("Death to all criminals", "German law, not Roman law", "Education to teach the German Way")>?
Agreed that points 10-14 would be supported by most socialists (as might 18, 19, 20 and 22). So what? Its motherhood and apple pie stuff. Germany was in a huge economic disaster and that sort of talk won votes.
When they got into power they only implemented one of those five points (13. "Extension of old age welfare") They soon forgot about "Abolition of unearned income", "Nationalisation of industry" (the Nazis nationalised a slightly smaller proportion of the German economy than the contemporary US government did of theirs), "Division of profits" and "Land reform".
And points 4-8 give the game away: "Land and territory", "Only a member of the race can be a citizen", "No Jew can be a member of the race", "Only citizens can live in Germany", "No immigration".
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Thanks ken, you beat me to it.
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
The Nazi platform, particularly points 10-17.
You might need to consider the possibility that a party might have a stated policy which appears to be socialist, but in fact be lying. This possibility might gain further traction if you consider that logic and telling the truth weren't Nazi fortes.
In any case, if all it takes is one socialist policy you could put any country with any form of state welfare down as socialists. [/QB]
You might also need to consider what would happen to you if you were a German during the Hitler rule and used your property in a manner he didn't like.
[ 17. June 2010, 13:15: Message edited by: Mere Nick ]
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
[QUOTE
In any case, if all it takes is one socialist policy you could put any country with any form of state welfare down as socialists.
Ah! Now you've got it. ONce you've got that trick down, you're ready to join the tea partiers.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
[qb] Not when I read the Nazi platform and Hitler's own words.
Which words? Mein Kampf? He made his hatred of socialists and communists pretty evident there. Or what were you thinking of?
The Nazi platform, particularly points 10-17.
10-17?
What is Socialist about points 15, 16 & 17? ("Death to all criminals", "German law, not Roman law", "Education to teach the German Way")>?
It appears you are reading the summary up at the top. Scroll down a for the actual points.
quote:
Agreed that points 10-14 would be supported by most socialists (as might 18, 19, 20 and 22). So what? Its motherhood and apple pie stuff. Germany was in a huge economic disaster and that sort of talk won votes.
Then there you have it. He wanted to control everything.
quote:
When they got into power they only implemented one of those five points (13. "Extension of old age welfare") They soon forgot about "Abolition of unearned income", "Nationalisation of industry" (the Nazis nationalised a slightly smaller proportion of the German economy than the contemporary US government did of theirs), "Division of profits" and "Land reform".
If we lived in the same country and I was a dictator and could control anything I wanted to and instructed one of my goons to show up on your front porch and tell you what to do with your property, who is the real owner?
It would be like way back in the olden days here when there was still slavery and a cotton plantation owner says that the slave is the owner of the bag he uses to hold the cotton he picks for the plantation owner.
quote:
And points 4-8 give the game away: "Land and territory", "Only a member of the race can be a citizen", "No Jew can be a member of the race", "Only citizens can live in Germany", "No immigration".
What game? Was it a game to those Jews and others having their property and lives confiscated by the state?
[ 17. June 2010, 13:31: Message edited by: Mere Nick ]
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Quote by Erin:
quote:
And yet nobody thought about protesting until a darkie won the election. I live in Redneck Wonderland, believe me when I say that racism is one of the things that unites the teabaggers. I have yet to meet a teabagger who didn't, at some point, refer to "that nigger in the White House".
I must live in the next county over. I hear that phrase on a regular basis in public places.
I know quite a few Tea Partiers, a good many of whom are Southerners. If they heard that term they would, at the least, ask you to leave, but most likely they'd physically toss you out of the meeting.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
You might also need to consider what would happen to you if you were a German during the Hitler rule and used your property in a manner he didn't like.
And that makes him a socialist? Are all thieves socialists? All dictators too on the basis of your "wants to control everything" answer to Ken?
This isn't how most people use the word, and isn't how it is defined anywhere you care to look.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
Look! It works!
We were discussing the decline in middle class living standards, the drop in real wages since the 1970s, unemployment and economic insecurity, the lack of affordable healthcare and college education, and the dangers of globalised "free trade".
Now we are discussing whether "One-ness" is a socialist or a fascist.
I think that pretty much sums up exactly what the tea-party movement is all about, and why it thrives: get the people angry and distracted with on hand, shaft them with the other, and blame it one someone else. The tea-partyers themselves are, for the most part, "useful idiots", being played by the very rich and corporate interests, just as the "Christian Right" were played before them.
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What game? Was it a game to those Jews and others having their property and lives confiscated by the state?
What are you talking about? Your last two posts don't engage with the quotes you hung them on.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
Well, this topic has certainly gone off the rails.
The quip to dismiss the Tea Party objections to His Oness's administration is to call up the "racist!" card. Yes, there are racists in the Tea Party. I don't believe for a second that they typify the movement as a whole.
His Oness has done, threatens to do and is doing many things that MANY Americans consider to be crossing the line of both parties: i.e. Dems and Repubs everywhere are having second thoughts about how their party operates. We can thank His Oness for bringing that reconsideration to a head....
Posts: 3499 | Registered: Jan 2007
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
His Oness has done, threatens to do and is doing many things that MANY Americans consider to be crossing the line of both parties
Ok, back on track - what things?
Let's not worry about which meaningless emotive label to call Obama's actions, first just please say what these extreme and beyond-the-pale actions are? I think the only thing he's actually acheived is to reform Healthcare, which is hardly less radical than setting it up in the first place.
From what I've seen, the only radical policies being mentioned are on the placards of the teaparty protesters. The fear and paranoia of death panels and Nazi thugs is far beyond the reality; which is often quite dull.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Alright, I will address the OP directly.
The tea party movement is not a rational, reasoned reaction.
It is in part motivated by fear. Fear for the economic future. Fear of a black man in the white house. Not every man jack of them, but many. Fear of the unknown, better the devil you know.
Regardless of assertions to the contrary, the vast majority of tea party members seem to be conservative. This makes much of the talk of cross-party angst suspicious. Appears more to be sour grapes.
ETA: x-posted in part with Hawk. (must type faster)
And I will make a prediction: If the tea party movement has an effect on who gets elected, it will not be libertarians, small government or independent types who gain office. It will be business as usual republicans. And if enough of them get elected, the tea part movement will fade away.
[ 17. June 2010, 15:40: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
My own belief is that if you spelunked far enough into the origins of the Tea Party movement you would find, not disaffected grassroots activists, but the hand of Karl Rove, aka The Devil.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I well remember comments at the "beginning" of the teashagger movement that the grassrootsedness thereof was far overstated.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Look! It works!
We were discussing the decline in middle class living standards, the drop in real wages since the 1970s, unemployment and economic insecurity, the lack of affordable healthcare and college education, and the dangers of globalised "free trade".
Now we are discussing whether "One-ness" is a socialist or a fascist.
I think that pretty much sums up exactly what the tea-party movement is all about, and why it thrives: get the people angry and distracted with on hand, shaft them with the other, and blame it one someone else. The tea-partyers themselves are, for the most part, "useful idiots", being played by the very rich and corporate interests, just as the "Christian Right" were played before them.
I think you and Grammatica are more or less right about the Tea Party. The Tea Party has gone after Republicans who support big government policies just as hard as they have gone after Democrats. Just ask Bennett of Utah. The Tea Party is in a struggle for the control of the Republican Party. It is a struggle between Neo-Conservatives and sort of a Libertarian Right that hasn't gotten the memo about libertarian opposition to imperialism.
What they don't realize is that the economic and foreign policies they mostly advocate got them into trouble just as much as big government. I don't blame them for wanting less government. What I don't understand is their willingness to allow big business to grow exponentially until they have as much power over the lives of individuals as government. The only thing capable of restricting the power of big business is big government. If you want small government, you must also support small business.
People don't want to depend on the government for support. However, they seem to have no problem putting their faith in a corporation that can shut down, move to another country, and leave a virtual ghost town of people who practically sold their soul to the company store (to quote an old country song). The libertarian right has convinced people that more government deregulation would prevent those jobs from leaving. I can't imagine them being able to cut wages low enough. Actually, if we are to follow the gospel of free trade, politicians should be calling for those displaced workers to move with their jobs. Free trade theory called for the free movement of labor as well as capital. If you were a telephone customer service agent who lost his job, move to Bangalore. You can get a job and live as well as anybody in Bangalore. Not that anybody ever advocates that aspect of it.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The only thing capable of restricting the power of big business is big government. If you want small government, you must also support small business.
Yes indeed. What we really need is a Centre Party with a sort of "localist-left", agrarian, distributist outlook. This might even be coupled with moderate social conservatism - because, let's be honest, the reason "small town values" and "our traditional way of life" are threatened in America has nothing to do with gay liberals in New Orleans or San Francisco, and everything to do with globalising marketeers in Shanghai and Hong Kong.
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
His Oness has done, threatens to do and is doing many things that MANY Americans consider to be crossing the line of both parties
Ok, back on track - what things?
Let's not worry about which meaningless emotive label to call Obama's actions, first just please say what these extreme and beyond-the-pale actions are? I think the only thing he's actually acheived is to reform Healthcare, which is hardly less radical than setting it up in the first place.
From what I've seen, the only radical policies being mentioned are on the placards of the teaparty protesters. The fear and paranoia of death panels and Nazi thugs is far beyond the reality; which is often quite dull.
I'm not going to answer the broad-brushing tactics: BOTH SIDES resort to it all the time, but again it's only the noisy protagonists who do the broad-brushing of the other side. From where I observe, the main mass of Americans are not on any side but their own. That we agree on most things is an indicator of how far afield BOTH SIDES (so-called right and left, liberal and conservative) are at this point.
His Oness has a background that makes his motives and perspective suspect. Simple fact. That, plus his connections (via his background) increase the suspicion that he's not really good for America. He's almost perfect for change, but not the kind I "can believe in".
So far his "noise" has indicated that his vision of America is some Euro-centric model: toss the traditional and precedent-based interpretation of the Constitution: specifically his comments about the unfairness (unrighteousness, actually) of the uneven distribution of wealth; he'd love to take it all and dole it out fairly and evenly; his instantaneous power grab with the auto, banking and health care industries; moving to turn enormous blocks of them into Fed-controlled (owned) entities; his incapability of sticking to one policy, but rather saying the things that the group he's talking to want to hear (as far as he can tell). For example, He promotes off-shore drilling, then puts a six month moratorium on ALL off-shore drilling simply because of the outrage over a single accident: he's trying to make everybody like him and trust him. He ends up satisfying no one: watch and see. I will be surprised if he makes a second term. He might even have to quit before this one is up.
Americans don't like to see our president BOWING to dictators, or pissing off our friends and allies with his criticisms and rudeness, or showing only weakness and the same damned smile in every photo-op. No spine, only "let's all talk and get along with our enemies, even if it means alienating our friends".
Politicians are liars, and His Oness is their priest-king....
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
[Obama] has a background that makes his motives and perspective suspect. Simple fact.
Please provide a cite for this.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Power grab with the auto, banking and health industries?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
The auto companies were begging for money. We took the decision to bail them out instead of letting them fall into bankruptcy. I as a Canadian Citizen became a shareholder in GM because of that decision.
Banks came begging for money in the same way. Unless you wanted another Great Depression instead of the small one we have right now, it was the deal with the devil we had to make.
As for health, once the full provisions of the reform bill kick in, Americans will grow to love their new benefits.
It happened that way for Medicare.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
...I don't blame them for wanting less government. What I don't understand is their willingness to allow big business to grow exponentially until they have as much power over the lives of individuals as government. The only thing capable of restricting the power of big business is big government. If you want small government, you must also support small business.
This makes no sense, because small business is only the beginning. Given enough time small business GROWS and becomes BIG BUSINESS. Then the gov't steps in and imposes restrictions and regulations, i.e. becomes BIGGER than big business. Then gov't becomes the business and private business goes away to the extent that gov't has taken over through its restrictions and regulations.
The only fix for oppressive big business is competition. And as long as gov't stays out of the way, competition always arises. It may have to fight to survive, thrive and become the contender that an open, free market economy requires to work. The "fight" may even turn violent; that's when the gov't steps in and regulates for the common good by enforcing the LAW. But beyond that gov't has no business going; it should never compete by being IN business (much less becoming THE business).
quote:
People don't want to depend on the government for support. However, they seem to have no problem putting their faith in a corporation that can shut down, move to another country, and leave a virtual ghost town of people who practically sold their soul to the company store (to quote an old country song).
That's what insurance and investment are for. No future is assured. To expect gov't to provide a secure future is the proverbial pact with the devil.
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The libertarian right has convinced people that more government deregulation would prevent those jobs from leaving.
Really? I must have missed that one.
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I can't imagine them being able to cut wages low enough. Actually, if we are to follow the gospel of free trade, politicians should be calling for those displaced workers to move with their jobs. Free trade theory called for the free movement of labor as well as capital. If you were a telephone customer service agent who lost his job, move to Bangalore. You can get a job and live as well as anybody in Bangalore. Not that anybody ever advocates that aspect of it.
It isn't that way at all: the industry that has left the USA is a temporary shift toward making bigger profits elsewhere. It can shift back to the USA again the same way it left. Meanwhile, this remains the best of all possible worlds, and we just have to live with it. Again, to clamor for gov't to "save us" is the worst possible course of action. Only private business untrammeled by gov't restrictions can attract more business/competition....
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Yes, it's vital that the president not be sensitive to local customs when travelling abroad, and it's a matter of life-or-death importance that he frown once in a while.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
[Obama] has a background that makes his motives and perspective suspect. Simple fact.
Please provide a cite for this.
Have you been living in a box? Or are you just being disingenuous? Chicago? Raised outside the USA? Just for starters....
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
The only fix for oppressive big business is competition. And as long as gov't stays out of the way, competition always arises.
Except that's not what happens. If government stays out of the way, monopoly always arises. The government is required to regulate heavily just to preserve competition. Our government lost its will to prevent monopoly long ago. In 1988 there were 7 "big" accounting firms in the US. How many are there now? Mergers and more mergers and the government just does a superficial "investigation" and then allows it.
"Oh," you say, "another company will then arise to provide competition." Very little competition, and big business at this point has so much power in congress that it can afford to buy protection for itself. (The USDA is very draconian on small farmers, but pretty much lets Big Ag do mostly what it wants.) And woe betide should the small company go public -- Big Biz will just buy it up.
Big business is our enemy, not our friend. And don't go crying that Big Biz creates all these jobs. They're shipping all those jobs overseas. Small Biz doesn't ship jobs overseas. Big Biz does.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Power grab with the auto, banking and health industries?
The auto companies were begging for money. We took the decision to bail them out instead of letting them fall into bankruptcy. I as a Canadian Citizen became a shareholder in GM because of that decision.
Banks came begging for money in the same way. Unless you wanted another Great Depression instead of the small one we have right now, it was the deal with the devil we had to make.
As for health, once the full provisions of the reform bill kick in, Americans will grow to love their new benefits.
It happened that way for Medicare.
Point by point, private industry coming "begging" for money from the Gov't and getting it just shows how far down the drain we've already gone. A full-blown depression is probably the only "fix" we must endure: once things are that bad, people will really work to turn it around, and please God it won't take a world war next time to clinch the "new" deal. It isn't as though the resources actually vanish away during hard times. What stops people from digging themselves out of the rubble of an economic collapse is BIG gov't, every single time, getting in the way. During the expansion West gov't was slow to come in behind the pioneers and entrepreneurs; by the time gov't got involved the infrastructure for success was already up and running. People felt a desire for security in wild and uncertain times, so gov't made its usual promises and got its franchise from The People, and things seemed to stabilize and security improved. If we could have held the line at that point we wouldn't be in the bureaucratic mess we are now. But as we were warned in the beginning, people who are willing to sell freedom for security will lose both....
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
[Obama] has a background that makes his motives and perspective suspect. Simple fact.
Please provide a cite for this.
Have you been living in a box? Or are you just being disingenuous? Chicago? Raised outside the USA? Just for starters....
So it really is the racism ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
...If government stays out of the way, monopoly always arises. The government is required to regulate heavily just to preserve competition. ...
Big business is our enemy, not our friend. And don't go crying that Big Biz creates all these jobs. They're shipping all those jobs overseas. Small Biz doesn't ship jobs overseas. Big Biz does.
And Big Gov't is our enemy. What you are admitting, whether you like to or not, is that this is a no-win situation. This is what always happens sooner or later. And the fallout will inevitably be oppression on both sides, from Big Business and Big Gov't, and all the little People getting crushed in between.
That's when the anarchy of The Dark Ages (also called the middle ages) happens: and it takes sufficient power to resist the Big Powers that be. That's how America got its start, after all: resisting the Big British Empire successfully.
You can't have this one way or the other, when either way is the same bad, enslaved, benighted, impoverished end....
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
And Big Gov't is our enemy. What you are admitting, whether you like to or not, is that this is a no-win situation.
No I am not admitting that because I don't agree that big government is our enemy. That's a lie invented by Reagan's handlers and propagated by neo-cons ever since. What you have done is admit that unbridled capitalism does not lead to competition but to monopoly.
The real solution to the monopoly problem is to prevent businesses from getting too big.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
[Obama] has a background that makes his motives and perspective suspect. Simple fact.
Please provide a cite for this.
Have you been living in a box? Or are you just being disingenuous? Chicago? Raised outside the USA? Just for starters....
So it really is the racism
How do you get RACE out of that? Are all cultures outside the USA BLACK? or non White? Is Chicago a BLACK town?...
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
... but the hand of Karl Rove, aka The Devil.
Now, now, don't be so crude. Karl is a really kind and lovely person. He is not the Devil.
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
How do you get RACE out of that? Are all cultures outside the USA BLACK? or non White? Is Chicago a BLACK town?...
Anyone opposing Obama is automatically racist. Don't you know that? It is a fact of life under the current regime.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
[Obama] has a background that makes his motives and perspective suspect. Simple fact.
Please provide a cite for this.
Have you been living in a box? Or are you just being disingenuous? Chicago? Raised outside the USA? Just for starters....
You have got to be kidding! That's your main point ("for starters")?
And "raised outside the US" -- ok, a few years as a child in Indonesia and then teenage years in Hawai'i. Are you saying that being in elementary school in Indonesia and then a high school basketball player in Hawai'i make a man suspicious? Or a fascist.
You seem so sure that President Obama is a Real.Bad.Guy. but your examples have not yet risen to match your assertions.
Nevermind his former position as a Professor of Constitutional Law....oh, I forgot, that's at the University of Chicago. Bad bad bad. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I second Erin's call for citations.
sabine
[ 17. June 2010, 19:37: Message edited by: sabine ]
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
under the current regime.
Using the word regime is an example of the inflated rhetoric that makes it so hard to have a discussion.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
[Obama] has a background that makes his motives and perspective suspect. Simple fact.
Please provide a cite for this.
Have you been living in a box? Or are you just being disingenuous? Chicago? Raised outside the USA? Just for starters....
Seriously? You really want to make that argument? Because he spent part of his childhood in Indonesia, that automatically means that his motives and perspectives are suspect. We'd rather have a small town provincial leader who never left the ranch except to do the weekly marketin'. Yeah.
Wow. Just wow.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
[Obama] has a background that makes his motives and perspective suspect. Simple fact.
Please provide a cite for this.
Have you been living in a box? Or are you just being disingenuous? Chicago? Raised outside the USA? Just for starters....
There are no words to convey the depths of the stupidity and xenophobia in this response. They do not exist. It's like trying to comprehend the size of the universe. It can't be done. Not to mention that you haven't actually provided a cite for his background making him suspect. I could understand if he were, say, a recovering coke addict. But he's not, so you've got nothing other than the stuff from Rush, Hannity and Beck that managed to penetrate your tinfoil hat.
[ 17. June 2010, 20:04: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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