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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Why are the tea partiers so angry?
RadicalWhig
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
No, the reason they are trying to get in to America is because they all want the chance to NOT live in poverty, of American or any other variety. They all believe they're going to be the ones who WON'T end up in poverty. They'll be the big success.

An interesting point. I wonder how it relates to what Josephine said about a core belief in fairness. Because every American today is either an immigrant or descended from immigrants - someone in their family tree decided that they could leave Lvov or Naples or wherever and make it in America. That's what the dream (myth?) of America is all about.

Perhaps those who have "made it" think it is due to their hard work and excellence - or that of their parents and grandparents, and therefore other people should be able to "make it" too - if they don't, it's their "fault" and they "deserve" to be poor.

But times have changed. The frontier is closed. The era of GI Bill education is over. The economy has been centralised and capitalised to such an extent that the barriers to entry are, for most, insuperably high. It's harder and harder for people to "make it" now.

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MerlintheMad
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
...You've claimed that people are trying to get in to America because they'd be happy to live in American poverty. No, the reason they are trying to get in to America is because they all want the chance to NOT live in poverty, of American or any other variety. They all believe they're going to be the ones who WON'T end up in poverty. They'll be the big success.



I never said that. The contrast to so-called American poverty and normal life elsewhere makes our "poverty" a panacea of opportunity and escape by comparison. Our "poverty" is "rich" to these disadvantaged immigrants.

I don't believe that anything more than that is required to induce them to try to get here. Dreams of becoming one of the filthy rich are not on offer anymore than winning the lottery.

quote:
It's quite ironic actually, because we've already seen that's what you believe about yourself. You'll never be poor because you'll see the warning signs first.

...

As I've said quite a few times already: I live well below the so-called poverty line. The difference is that I have a cushion in place: I have planned for the future by staying out of debt, living within my means, saving, having a retirement plan (that I am currently living from even as the market grows it back toward where it was before the plunge), paying off my house so that I can't be evicted, etc. Warning signs are all around us all the time. You prepare by being provident. Anyone, ANYONE can do that no matter what their income or circumstances. There is only more, or less, not NONE. The principles of provedent living are the same for everyone....
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Wisewilliam
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Merlin is evading the issue of the fundamental unfairness in the existing American system. Wealth in Arica is too concetrated in an affluent few. (millioaires are a small miority owingin 50% of the country's wealth). He seems to think that is o.k. Houses built on the sands of fundametal injustice get swept away when the dam bursts. To be born in poverty in a family of schol drop outs is both unfortunate and evil depending on whether you are one of the unfrtunates or just plain incapable. The school systems that deepend on local taxation are designed to keep the poor in poverty. "Inasmuch as ye have done this unto the least of my people ye have done it unto me." Live with that if you want but don't pretend to be a charitable Christian.

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Barnabas62
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Merlin

That actually underlines the point that Papio and Josephine are making. Misfortunes happen to provident people. Poverty, severe illness, hard times, do not always fall on the feckless. It is not a fair world.

And Christians are not required to live as though the law of karma applies. We are to be people of grace.

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MerlintheMad
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quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
...Feel free to feel inherently superior to them if you like, but I am betting that you aren't.

Even if you are, so what? What's wrong with a bit of compassion?

How do you get "superior" out of what I said? I was stating facts, not my attitude toward other people. There is quite a lot of hardship in my neighborhood. Some people are facing eviction if they don't turn it around. The guy on the corner lost his house because his self-employment construction job dried up and he couldn't make his house payments. But I didn't hear that he was going to be out on the street. I don't feel anything for him except sorry. He didn't deserve the economic downturn that took away his income. He reduced his finances, which meant losing his house (payment); he had somewhere to go; he planned for months on where to go and I trust he's doing what he can to keep eating and looking for work. He's not going to be homeless because he's a self-starter and motivator. There was a time when the American "way" expected that of everyone who isn't incapable. But the entitlement mentality is like a cancer, eating up our resources without contributing to the life of the Nation....
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Papio

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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
How do you get "superior" out of what I said?

Because you are claiming that the difference between you and they is that you are smart, well-organised and responsible, whereas they are stupid, lazy and feckless.

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
And Christians are not required to live as though the law of karma applies. We are to be people of grace.

[Overused]

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MerlintheMad
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quote:
Originally posted by Wisewilliam:
Merlin is evading the issue of the fundamental unfairness in the existing American system. Wealth in A[me]rica is too concetrated in an affluent few. (millioaires are a small miority owingin 50% of the country's wealth).

I don't care if it was 99% of the country's wealth; as long as the remaining 1% was sufficient to give the masses a good life and the liberty to "cut in" on that 99%. It's the gov't impositions that seek to redress the imbalance which are more immoral than the obtaining of the wealth in the first place: to take from those who own and to give their property to those who are not entitled to it is brigandage. Now, brigandage is an occupation too, a venerable one at that: but for gov'ts to engage in it is a mockery of "fairness".
quote:

He seems to think that is o.k. Houses built on the sands of fundametal injustice get swept away when the dam bursts.

Way to go! Karlmaoché.

quote:

To be born in poverty in a family of schol drop outs is both unfortunate and evil depending on whether you are one of the unfrtunates or just plain incapable.

Then existence itself is "evil", because I am not aware of anyone hereabouts who can be blamed for the "random selection" that puts some kids into rich homes and others into the street.

There's nothing evil about birth circumstances (keeping the metaphysical out of this). But to assert that obtaining wealth through your own efforts, and having a right to own and keep it is "unfair" and "evil", is itself a great evil: the evil of covetousness, envy, legalized brigandage.

quote:

...school systems that deepend on local taxation are designed to keep the poor in poverty. "Inasmuch as ye have done this unto the least of my people ye have done it unto me." Live with that if you want but don't pretend to be a charitable Christian.

My religion has nothing to do with this thread's issues.

The public school system, last I looked, makes an honest effort to educate children equally. If you have an issue with the level of competition of a public education with private ("elite schools") education, that is another topic altogether. Take it up with your gov't representatives on the local and national level....

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Papio

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quote:
the evil of covetousness, envy, legalized brigandage
What about greed, arrogance, complacence, mean-spiritedness, blindess to the misfortune of others, miserliness and selfishness?

Are they are not also sins?

Also, I have to say that in my experience the people who have a suffocating and overweening sense of entitlement are the wealthy, not the poor.

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MerlintheMad
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Merlin

That actually underlines the point that Papio and Josephine are making. Misfortunes happen to provident people. Poverty, severe illness, hard times, do not always fall on the feckless. It is not a fair world.

And Christians are not required to live as though the law of karma applies. We are to be people of grace.

I agree with every word of this response.

The original assertion that created this tangental objection of mine, was later clarified to mean: that in a future great depression people would be starving in the streets. That is of course unknowable: the Great Depression did not see masses of people starving and most people even the homeless were not going hungry in any real sense. Times were different then; more people grew some or all of their own food, allowing charitable distribution. We don't want another great depression! But that might be the only "fix" to the progressive entitlement and erosion of our economy and liberty.

But to address the tangental topic one more time: as it is at this time, MOST homeless (a very small number of people in any case, thank heaven) are there by choice; not in the sense that they want to be homeless in the first place, but because of poor choices or inaction in the first place: it became too late to undo what was then inevitable. (speaking again of the "normal" segment of homeless: those who can work and understand how to live povidently)

What is our response to be? Well, obviously those who can ought to contribute voluntarily, charitably to their local food banks and homeless shelters, etc: and more active support/aid where possible and desireable. Each of us must decide what our part is, in ministering to those who are unfortunate, no matter how they came to be that way....

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orfeo

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Merlin, I find it genuinely bizarre that you can use the word 'unfortunate' while totally denying what it literally means.

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
What is our response to be? Well, obviously those who can ought to contribute voluntarily, charitably to their local food banks and homeless shelters, etc: and more active support/aid where possible and desireable. Each of us must decide what our part is, in ministering to those who are unfortunate, no matter how they came to be that way....

In a round-about way, ISTM that this point is something that illuminates the anger of the tea-partiers. We have come to see ourselves as individuals, not as part of a collective enterprise. WE decide how WE spend OUR money, etc. The notion that there is such a thing as a civilization that we are all attached to and leaching upon is just not a view that many Americans share any longer.

Given that one thinks that he created everything of value in his life, the notion of an obligation to anyone, let alone someone who can't do you any obvious good, is a hard one to accept. Looking after other people in society is a generous act, not an essential part of being human. Failing to educate our citizens has real consequences for the glue that binds us together as a people...

--Tom Clune

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churchgeek

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quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
I was waiting to see how long it would take before someone used the word fascist -- about 16 posts. And then the arguing started, making it hard for a real discussion to continue.

This supports the idea that when faced with an anxiety-producing set of circumstances or with a weak argument, some people will simply resort to name calling.

I respect those who might have a willingness to discuss things from a perspective that is not popular, but as soon as name-calling comes into play or using terms outside of their meaning, then it's not a discussion--just a squaring off to trade verbal punches....

...which, of course, never solves anything. It doesn't convert anyone to a POV, it doesn't solve an issue. It really only works to raise the anger level.

I thought we were already at flood stage, but perhaps not.

[tangent] I was driving in a university town when I saw a man on a street corner with a sign that read: "Obama is a Nazi, fascist, socialist, communist, anarchist."

It was cold, the windows of the car were up. I wanted to say:

Those are different philosophies, dude. You're in a college town. Read a book! [Big Grin]


sabine

[Overused]

I'm no expert in political philosophy, but by listening to my dad, I suspect someone at some time simply defined all those words thus:

Nazi: un-American.
Communist: un-American.
Socialist: un-American.

And so on (you get the drift). At any rate, they have simply become names you can call an enemy to demonize them or at the very least to rally the troops on your own side. But you're right, sabine, they do absolutely nothing for any of us.

I'd love to see us all stop and at least hypothetically consider that maybe, just maybe all of us in the US are Americans, all very much interested in the well-being of our nation as a whole and of all the individuals and corporate entities in that nation, but we just have different ideas about how to get there. If we could at least produce the charity to assume our opponents have the same love of country and love of neighbor we have, maybe we could actually start talking.

Some TV and radio personalities', some authors', and some bloggers' ratings would go down, though. But they're primarily entertainers (as they always point out as soon as a scandal hits); let them find another way to entertain us.


ETA: Instead of saying, for example, "Obama is a fascist," it would be much more productive to say, "I believe Obama's policy on xyz is misguided, because..." It may be that more proximate goals aren't held in common, and those goals themselves need to be debated as they pertain to our common goals of national security, a good economy, and so forth. Why is it that when intelligent, educated, decent people disagree, we tend to assume that those the other side are clearly stupid or evil, because anyone with common sense can clearly see the truth of our own views? Why can't the existence of opinions other than our own cause us to realize that there are opinions other than our own, and maybe we should engage them seriously but charitably?

[ 19. June 2010, 21:25: Message edited by: churchgeek ]

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
]As I've said quite a few times already: I live well below the so-called poverty line. The difference is that I have a cushion in place: I have planned for the future by staying out of debt, living within my means, saving, having a retirement plan (that I am currently living from even as the market grows it back toward where it was before the plunge), paying off my house so that I can't be evicted, etc. Warning signs are all around us all the time. You prepare by being provident. Anyone, ANYONE can do that no matter what their income or circumstances. There is only more, or less, not NONE. The principles of provedent living are the same for everyone....

The principles are the same but not everyone has access to the resources you had. I don't dispute that many people fall into homelessness because they failed to make the sort of prudent preparations you did, and that if everyone saved as conscientiously as you have, we'd all be better off.

But it is simply not true that this is accessible to everyone. It is estimated that 30-40% of the homeless population is mentally ill. That sort of careful fiscal planning is not an option for them.

I may be wrong, but I'm going to hazard a guess that you started this prudent saving stance from a strong position. You were probably raised in a home where at the very least, you wre able to start out at 18 w/o any debt. You probably had clothes that were at least nice enough to get a job. Probably had access to a shower and a laundromat so your clothes were clean when you went for an interview. Probably had parents or other adults in your life who gave you some tips about how to interview or ask for a job. Probably were able to live at home at least until you had a high school diploma in hand.

This is not the case for all homeless-- another large percentage of the homeless population is aged out foster kids, who begin life w/ none of those advantages.

And again, you were lucky. You were lucky that while you were building your nest egg, no calamity came upon you to wipe it out. Your timing was good-- you were able to save during the flush years, so that when the crash came you had reserves to draw from. Again, don't dispute that that took wisdom, restraint, patience, and prudence that is in rare supply these days. Just pointing out that you were still luck, and if the crash had come at the beginning of your saving habit rather than at the end you also might have ended up on the streets. Unless, again, you are fortunate enough to have family or friends to fall back on.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
ETA: Instead of saying, for example, "Obama is a fascist," it would be much more productive to say, "I believe Obama's policy on xyz is misguided, because..."

But Iim not sure that (1) tea partiers are interested in being productive, and (2) the answer isn't simply "I believe Obama's policy is wrong because it's Obama's policy."

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Instead of saying, for example, "Obama is a fascist," it would be much more productive to say, "I believe Obama's policy on xyz is misguided, because..."

But I'm not sure the tea partiers have anything to go after the ... except "it's Obama's policy." There is no indication that they have any suggestions for a way forward, only objections to current realities and policies.

Also I'm not entirely certain they're interested in being productive. Again there is no indication of that.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
Originally posted by Papio:
quote:
Originally Opined by MerlinTheMad
I said that anyone who is going to be homeless has plenty of warning; plenty of time to prepare for a shelter and food at the very least.
quote:
Yes, but that is the purest bollocks.

People often become homeless over night, esp in a recession.



Malarky! "Often"? Without warning? How does this occur? I'll tell you: by being STOOPID. Dig your head into the sand and say LALALALA. Anyone who can't look their personal finances over and SEE the danger of eviction with nowhere to go is being an idiot (I speak of normal, savvy people who are unwise in their finances and act as if tomorrow will necessarily be as today without a care for saving or planning for the worst case scenario).

Until quite recently, the largest category (and still one of the largest categories) of foreclosures in the US were medical bankrupcies filed by people WITH insurance. People who were working hard, paying their bills, AND-- they thought-- preparing for the future by making sure their had health insurance.

And then-- overnight-- something happened. The test results came back, and the news was Not Good. Maybe the lost their job because they were no longer able to work because of that medical condition. Maybe their insurance was cancelled. And they suddenly found themselves facing medical bills that even you, Merlin, the Master of Fiscal Prudence (which I do believe you are), could not have saved for in 10 lifetimes.

Yes, overnight. People-- families-- families with children-- do become homeless overnight.

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mousethief

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I thought for sure the first one didn't go through. Sorry about that.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
Merlin The Mad Said :
quote:
But to claim that typical people in America are starving in the streets is pure bullshit.
The claim was that, left to itself, a "correction" like the great depression will lead to people starving in the streets as has happened several times in history. Nobody claimed that people are starving in the street NOW. But recent studies by the USDA estimate that there will be about 16 million kids in the US facing hunger this summer. (Hunger not starvation) 1 in 5 kids in the US live below the poverty line. And there are more children in need than the available food aid. For example in Oklahoma only 5% of those children in need actually received aid. Food banks are facing overwhelming demand.
But guess what will happen if you take away all government help.

The so-called poverty line supports FAT kids! Look around. American "poor kids" are not starving. You will find an extremely small exceptional segment to that: and in almost all cases there are untypical circumstances causing the malnutrition, or even the lack of calories. Foodbanks will continue to recieve overwhelming demand as long as the momentum is toward more entitlement mentality.

The American Great Depression was not a time of wide-spread starvation. Very few people suffered as other countries would in a similar economic crisis...

Merlin, go down to Costco and compare the price of a frozen burrito with the cost of a lb of hamburger and some fresh vegetables.

That is why our poor kids are fat. It is also why, even those poor kids who are obese are still yes, undernourished-- many of them actually suffering medically from malnutrition.

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Wisewilliam
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Surely it is Ninteenth Century thinking to blame poor people for being poor.

Merlin: What do you want ? Workhouses ? Gruel ? Debtor prisons ? Flog the poor, the weak and mentally ill ? For the love of God, what use is the progress capitalism (bless it) has given to the world if it only benefits the pirates and the fortunate ? A decent society looks after its own people - all of them, not just the lucky.

Charity and a generous mind are part of duty as human beings. This "Each mman for himself and the devil take the hindmost" is uncivilized.

Still Americans have always lived on myth and delusion and that's not going to change soon, is it ?

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Wisewilliam:
What do you want ? Workhouses ?

Actually, I think some modern form of this might be socially useful.
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mousethief

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Ebenezer? Zatchu?

Actually the modern form of that is the WPA and other such things. Which the Republicans scream about. There's really no pleasing them.

[ 19. June 2010, 23:40: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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Papio

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Wisewilliam:
What do you want ? Workhouses ?

Actually, I think some modern form of this might be socially useful.
Then you are wrong.

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Papio

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quote:
Originally posted by Wisewilliam:
Surely it is Ninteenth Century thinking to blame poor people for being poor.

Thinking?

Are you sure the term "thinking" applies in this context?

I'm not.

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Seeker963
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I hope that every person who has fallen on hard times, lost their job, not been able to afford their Cobra, been afflicted with million-dollar plus illnesses, knows that not all Christians think that their personal luck is down to their hard work and their hard work alone.

I hope that every person who does back-breaking manual labor 12 hours a day for barely-subsistence wages knows that not all Westerners are self-righteous jerks who think that what we do is "hard work".

I hope that every person who has had the good luck to reap the benefits of their work will continue to enjoy that good luck but somehow also come to understand that to be in a situation where one is rewarded for work is still to be in a lucky situation. We can believe "It's all down to me and what I did" but that doesn't make it true.

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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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Merlin? Can you do a thought experiment with me? Just for a moment, go back in your mind to the time before you had your house paid for. Imagine that you still have a mortgage.

This is a thought experiment, so I'm going to make up the details. Imagine that you got a modest house with a modest mortgage, for which your payments are a mere 20% of your take-home pay. You didn't get the most house that you could afford, because you were more cautious and prudent than that. And you wanted to put money in savings -- which you did.

Can you imagine that?

Now imagine that, with just three years to go on your mortgage, the financial institutions that hold all your savings failed, and the government did not bail them out, so all your savings disappeared overnight. You worked hard for years, and lived frugally, and were prudent and responsible, and now it's gone. It was through no fault of your own -- you really had no way to know that the bank was investing your money in Ponzi schemes or financial derivatives that were ultimately worthless. So now you don't have any savings to fall back on. Just your current income.

Can you imagine that?

But that's okay, because in just three years, your mortgage will be paid off, and you can increase the amount you're putting into savings then.

Then imagine that one of your children becomes terribly ill. (God forbid it should ever be so.) You start your child on the necessary treatment, and he starts getting better. But he's going to need the very expensive treatment for three to five years. You've got insurance, and by cutting your expenses even more (including the amount you were putting into savings), you can just barely manage the copays and stuff. You're tough, resilient, pro-active. It's hard, but you and your family can do this.

Are you still with me?

Now imagine that, after a year of treatment for your child, your insurance drops you. Now, to get the ongoing treatment for your child, you have to come up with the cash. Without the treatment, your child will suffer, and his life will be at risk. You've got to come up with the money.

But you have nothing in savings. So you take on a part-time job in addition to your full-time job. Your child who is ill requires you to drive him to medical appointments a couple of times a week, and there is therapy to do with him at home between appointments. You aren't getting more than about five hours of sleep a night. But you know this is only temporary, so you can manage it.

Are you with me so far? Can you imagine all of this?

Now imagine that you are on your way from one job to the other, it's gray and drizzly, and you fall asleep behind the wheel. You've gotten so little sleep for so long that even the radio and a cup of coffee couldn't keep you awake.

And you find yourself in the emergency room with a bruised heart, a severe concussion, a couple of broken limbs, and various other injuries. Between the brain injury and the pain meds, it's a week before you're able to think straight, and another week before they're ready to let you go home. Remember, you don't have any insurance. You have now used up all your sick leave on your full-time job, and you've been fired from your part-time job.

Can you imagine that, Merlin?

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
Merlin The Mad Said :
quote:
But to claim that typical people in America are starving in the streets is pure bullshit.
The claim was that, left to itself, a "correction" like the great depression will lead to people starving in the streets as has happened several times in history. Nobody claimed that people are starving in the street NOW. But recent studies by the USDA estimate that there will be about 16 million kids in the US facing hunger this summer. (Hunger not starvation) 1 in 5 kids in the US live below the poverty line. And there are more children in need than the available food aid. For example in Oklahoma only 5% of those children in need actually received aid. Food banks are facing overwhelming demand.
But guess what will happen if you take away all government help.

The so-called poverty line supports FAT kids! Look around. American "poor kids" are not starving. You will find an extremely small exceptional segment to that: and in almost all cases there are untypical circumstances causing the malnutrition, or even the lack of calories. Foodbanks will continue to recieve overwhelming demand as long as the momentum is toward more entitlement mentality.

The American Great Depression was not a time of wide-spread starvation. Very few people suffered as other countries would in a similar economic crisis...

Merlin, go down to Costco and compare the price of a frozen burrito with the cost of a lb of hamburger and some fresh vegetables.

That is why our poor kids are fat. It is also why, even those poor kids who are obese are still yes, undernourished-- many of them actually suffering medically from malnutrition.

To add to this: I'm from Detroit, where half of the children live below the poverty line (that's an old statistic from before the current recession; now that the unemployment rate's around 30% in Detroit, the number of children in poverty is probably higher). There also is an epidemic of lead poisoning among children in the Detroit Public Schools, largely because of lead in the soil, but also because it's in homes (paint, etc.) - in many neighborhoods, most people are renting rather than owning their homes, so they're at the mercy of their landlord for things like stripping lead paint and removing asbestos siding. Anyway, in Detroit, there are no chain grocery stores. That means only "mom & pop" stores, which have much higher prices. Happily, the city has one of the nation's largest farmer's market, open on Saturday mornings, but another difficulty is transportation. Given the poverty level, many homes can't afford a car and rely on buses, which are somewhat reliable but not very frequent. Also, the city is huge - I recently saw a map showing that San Francisco, Boston, and Manhattan would fit inside Detroit with plenty of wiggle room - so to go outside the city for groceries or even to get to the farmer's market (Eastern Market) can be difficult for people depending on where they live. What is readily available is fast food. Lots of fast food places. Also lots of liquor stores (and no shortage of glossy billboards advertising liquor).

And if you want to throw race into the mix, most white folks in this country are oblivious to the history of systemic discrimination (e.g., housing policies and hiring practices that will shock even people who thought they knew about such things) and, in some places, laws made to criminalize things that either aren't present much in white communities, or are not enforced in white communities. Multiply that over several generations of kids hearing their mothers and grandmothers talk about virtue and hard work but seeing their dads work themselves to death but still not get ahead (as has been the case for African Americans in too many US cities), and you've got a LOT working against some kids.

I grew up outside of Detroit, where (usually Republican, now often Tea Partyer) white people tended to speak ill of poor African Americans and blame them for their problems. When I moved to the city as an adult, I saw that there was a lot more to the story than that. I'm well familiar with the rhetoric the Tea Party is spewing.

See, what happens, per human nature, is that we tend to compare ourselves favorably to others, but we also tend to think we have it at least as bad, if not worse, than others. When misfortune befalls someone else, we tend to look for reasons it was their fault, and therefore, couldn't happen to us. I learned this first-hand after I was mugged. Everyone was quick to tell me what I did wrong, or how I shouldn't live where I lived. I've also noticed, as someone with several chronic illnesses, that people who are healthy thanks to their DNA tend to think it's due to their doing something right. Fat people should just eat less. People with acne should wash their face better. People with asthma should exercise more, it would improve their lung capacity. People who are depressed should stop focusing on the negative. People who... you get the picture.

Similarly, people who, through good fortune (even if they also have misfortunes and challenges) don't encounter extreme poverty (for any of the reasons people have enumerated on this thread) often take all the credit as if they really did produce their own good fortune ex nihilo.

We all rely on each other, even when we think we're totally independent. Even a selfish person should realize it's to his or her own advantage for everyone in his or her community to be educated, well-nourished, and have access to health care. It's to his or her own advantage as well to have public roads and utilities (electricity, water, trash collection, etc.). Remember how Jesus illustrated the commandment to "love thy neighbor." We have no indication that the Good Samaritan checked the injured man's citizenship status or "worthiness" to receive aid (whatever that means; but we're always being told by TP types that we should only help the "deserving" poor). If you asked Jesus today, "Who is my neighbor?" I suspect he wouldn't limit it to people who live in your own neighborhood or pass your own value system's worthiness test. His challenge to love as ourselves those we think least deserving is not only about the person who stands to receive our aid: it's also medicine for our own sick souls.

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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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sabine
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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:

As I've said quite a few times already: I live well below the so-called poverty line. The difference is that I have a cushion in place: I have planned for the future by staying out of debt, living within my means, saving, having a retirement plan (that I am currently living from even as the market grows it back toward where it was before the plunge), paying off my house so that I can't be evicted, etc. Warning signs are all around us all the time. You prepare by being provident. Anyone, ANYONE can do that no matter what their income or circumstances. There is only more, or less, not NONE. The principles of provedent living are the same for everyone....

As someone who has worked with people who are truly living below the poverty line, I can say you've misinterpreted quite a bit here. With the assests you've mentioned (savings, retirement plan) I think it would be difficult to make a sollid case that you are in poverty.

Maybe your current income is less than the poverty line, but assests count--and many people have never had the chance through no fault of their own to accrue assests.

The argument that someone with savings and retirement funds is living below the poverty line is simply a convenient misconstruction.

sabine

[ 20. June 2010, 11:37: Message edited by: sabine ]

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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sabine
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quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:

I'm well familiar with the rhetoric the Tea Party is spewing.

See, what happens, per human nature, is that we tend to compare ourselves favorably to others, but we also tend to think we have it at least as bad, if not worse, than others. When misfortune befalls someone else, we tend to look for reasons it was their fault, and therefore, couldn't happen to us. I learned this first-hand after I was mugged. Everyone was quick to tell me what I did wrong, or how I shouldn't live where I lived. I've also noticed, as someone with several chronic illnesses, that people who are healthy thanks to their DNA tend to think it's due to their doing something right. Fat people should just eat less. People with acne should wash their face better. People with asthma should exercise more, it would improve their lung capacity. People who are depressed should stop focusing on the negative. People who... you get the picture.

Similarly, people who, through good fortune (even if they also have misfortunes and challenges) don't encounter extreme poverty (for any of the reasons people have enumerated on this thread) often take all the credit as if they really did produce their own good fortune ex nihilo.

We all rely on each other, even when we think we're totally independent. Even a selfish person should realize it's to his or her own advantage for everyone in his or her community to be educated, well-nourished, and have access to health care. It's to his or her own advantage as well to have public roads and utilities (electricity, water, trash collection, etc.). Remember how Jesus illustrated the commandment to "love thy neighbor." We have no indication that the Good Samaritan checked the injured man's citizenship status or "worthiness" to receive aid (whatever that means; but we're always being told by TP types that we should only help the "deserving" poor). If you asked Jesus today, "Who is my neighbor?" I suspect he wouldn't limit it to people who live in your own neighborhood or pass your own value system's worthiness test. His challenge to love as ourselves those we think least deserving is not only about the person who stands to receive our aid: it's also medicine for our own sick souls.

This is compassionately and beautifully written, churchgeek. [Overused]

sabine

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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New Yorker
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Why are the tea partiers so angry? Why not ask them as did this article.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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[New Yorker, please avert your gaze. I think I'm going to say something that might upset you.]

Well, you see, that's just the thing. It's all well and good for the tea partiers (I won't capitalize the term) to go around saying Obama is a liar, Obama is a facist, etc., but when you ask them for specifics they can't produce any.

So what specifically has the President said, madam, that turned out to be a lie? Do you think he deliberately set out to mislead us, or was he honestly mistaken?

So what specific tenet of facism, sir, has the president embraced? How was this manifested in his words or deeds?

Mrs. Angle, do you really think that if someone wins an election over you, you should go after him with a rifle? Wouldn't that be murder? Don't the laws of every state forbid that? Are you saying that those laws should be repealed?

Questions like that shut the tea partiers up real fast -- or else they just shake their signs and tea bags at you as if they were amulets designed to repel the devil.

Rachel Maddow illustrated that very well when she asked Rand Paul if he really thought that white-owned businesses should be allowed not to admit persons of other races onto their premises.

[ 20. June 2010, 13:41: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Why are the tea partiers so angry? Why not ask them as did this article.

I did, it's all about Obama:

quote:
Angius acknowledges she did little more than complain until September 2008, when she realized Barack Obama was likely to win the presidency, bringing to office a liberal agenda that would mean the kind of changes Angius vehemently opposes.
I simply do not believe that all of these people have been so angry for years but only coincidentally decided to voice their anger when a black man won the White House. It's a goddamned lie.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Why are the tea partiers so angry? Why not ask them as did this article.

For this article to be particularly useful, you'd have to believe that the three angry people they profiled in this story know why they're angry, that they're willing to tell a reporter why they're angry, without fudging or dissembling, and that they are in some way typical of the tea party. That doesn't seem to be the case.

The first one doesn't know why she's angry.
quote:
Ask her to explain, and she talks about a feeling that something is just “wrong.”
She takes that uncomfortable feeling and looks around for something to pin it on. That's a very human thing to do. But it doesn't tell you what it is that's driving the feeling.

The second one seems pretty atypical, based on the research:
quote:
Then Odom got his first real job [at age 24], and noticed how much of his paycheck went to taxes. Illegal immigration caught his attention.

It was 2004, and George W. Bush was running for re-election. Odom decided to try to get involved by offering to revamp the website for the Washoe County Republican Party in Reno. The leaders, he says, eventually rejected his work because it wasn’t “run through their process.”

Odom went from apolitical to antiestablishment activist.

He's just 30 years old, so younger than most tea partiers. And, if you read the whole article, he's sharing a house with his fiance and a friend, so presumably is not as financially well off as most.

In addition, his explanation for why the local Republicans rejected his website design makes me suspect that fudging and dissembling are an issue for him. People who consistently blame their own failures on other people aren't the best source for information.

The third is the most interesting of the bunch. Based on the research I've seen, he's also the most typical -- older (he's got grandchildren), professional, and financially well off:
quote:
Bill Warner came to this place as a young man of 26, with his wife, Pat, and a 9-month-old daughter. Fresh out of the Navy, he went to work for a civil engineering firm, purchased a house on the GI bill and then bought the engineering business and built it into a solid venture.

A pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps capitalist, he rode the ups and downs of his community. But he now sees the life he’s built and the future of his daughter and grandson being threatened by “tax-and-spend” leaders who can’t do as he has always believed: Live within your means.

Calling him a "pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstrap capitalist" is really interesting, given that the bootstraps he used were funded by the government -- his Navy salary, the GI-bill home loan. It's also interesting that he opposes deficit spending by the government (at least, that's what people who say the government, like responsible poeple, should live within its means), when he has used credit to achieve important goals (buying the house certainly, and presumably buying his engineering firm).

Like him, most members of the tea party seem willing to take advantage of government spending that directly benefits them. "Don't touch my Medicare!" It's spending that benefits other people that seems to be a problem. And that disturbs me.

I have known people who just wanted to move out into a cabin way out in the mountains and be left alone. They didn't want to pay taxes -- but they also didn't want the government to do much of anything. They really didn't want to be part of society, part of the community. So paying a share of things like a safe and clean municipal water supply, roads that are properly built and maintained, schools, libraries, pure food and safe drugs -- they didn't want any of those things. They wanted to be on their own.

I can respect that, and I think those people should pretty much be left alone to do as they like. But the tea partiers are not eccentric people who want to live alone in a remote cabin, hauling water from a mountain spring, growing or killing their own food, apart from the rest of the world. The tea partiers are members of our communities. When the community joins forces to provide services that none of us could pay for on our own -- roads, schools, medical research -- we all join together to pay for them. You can call it "tax-and-spend" if you like. But it's really just the mechanism that we have set up to allow us all to pay our share of things that benefit all of us.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Why are the tea partiers so angry? Why not ask them as did this article.

Thank you, New Yorker, you just made our point. This article illustrates beautifully exactly what has been said on this thread: that the tea party movement is all about emotion, about frustration, about grieving for a loss of a mythic way of life. As the article demonstrates, there's no real "agenda", there's no real solution on offer, just some odd bits of illogical finger-pointing (blaming Obama for a decade of debt) and a deep, raw anger that Life Didn't Turn Out the Way we Wanted it To.

I get that. I get being frustrated, angry, sorrowful, when the wonderful life you were promised in return for your hard work turns into c**p. What I don't like or appreciate is:

1. The assumption that my Life Didn't Turn Out the Way I Wanted it To story is different/worse/more deserving than some other guy's Life Didn't Turn Out the Way I Wanted it To story (see Merlin).

2. The way the narrative of those stories has been separated from any logical cause-and-effect reasoning. There doesn't appear to be any attempt at all to look at what factors are truly behind these losses or what sorts of policies might relieve them. The corporate factions who are callously manipulating this movement might as well be selling snake oil.

[ 20. June 2010, 14:05: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
[QUOTE]Calling him a "pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstrap capitalist" is really interesting, given that the bootstraps he used were funded by the government -- his Navy salary, the GI-bill home loan.

...I have known people who just wanted to move out into a cabin way out in the mountains and be left alone. They didn't want to pay taxes -- but they also didn't want the government to do much of anything. They really didn't want to be part of society, part of the community. So paying a share of things like a safe and clean municipal water supply, roads that are properly built and maintained, schools, libraries, pure food and safe drugs -- they didn't want any of those things. They wanted to be on their own.

I can respect that, and I think those people should pretty much be left alone to do as they like. But the tea partiers are not eccentric people who want to live alone in a remote cabin, hauling water from a mountain spring, growing or killing their own food, apart from the rest of the world. The tea partiers are members of our communities. When the community joins forces to provide services that none of us could pay for on our own -- roads, schools, medical research -- we all join together to pay for them. You can call it "tax-and-spend" if you like. But it's really just the mechanism that we have set up to allow us all to pay our share of things that benefit all of us.

Exactly. The tea partiers seem to vastly underestimate or dismiss the vast benefits they receive from government spending- until they're threatened of course. They see their benefits as "entitlements", others as "hand outs".

Even your mythical self-reliant "mountain man" at some point is going to come back to government. As much as s/he might try to build a self-reliant life far from society up in the mountains, someday some corporate autotron somewhere is going to look at his/her mountain top and decide it would be the perfect spot for a luxury ski resort/ hunting lodge/ unobtainium mine. They're going to want to dam up the stream where s/he gets water or they'll pollute it until it is undrinkable.

And when that happens Mountain Man is going to find himself powerless-- unless he bands together with his fellow Mountain Men and Women to begin to bargain and act and advocate collectively, to impose some sort of zoning limitations or water usage contract or land use regulations. And-- oh-- at that moment you've formed a government, with all the plusses and minuses that come with that.

Because, like it or not, we are all inter-dependent.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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MerlintheMad
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
What is our response to be? Well, obviously those who can ought to contribute voluntarily, charitably to their local food banks and homeless shelters, etc: and more active support/aid where possible and desireable. Each of us must decide what our part is, in ministering to those who are unfortunate, no matter how they came to be that way....

In a round-about way, ISTM that this point is something that illuminates the anger of the tea-partiers. We have come to see ourselves as individuals, not as part of a collective enterprise. WE decide how WE spend OUR money, etc. The notion that there is such a thing as a civilization that we are all attached to and leaching upon is just not a view that many Americans share any longer.
I disagree with this historical view. In fact my understanding of the predominant "American" mentality is the opposite of this: it is focus on the INDIVIDUAL that powers the traditional interpretation of our Bill of Rights, which in turn was the foundation of Constitutional interpretation. This notion that the "common good" trumps individual rights is NOT how "the American dream" got established. Your (unintentional?) negativity in the last sentence is interesting, since Americans as a whole NEVER shared such a concept as "leaching off of our civilization". Rather, as sovereign individuals we use our powers of self-reliance to better our own lot, and pay our fair share toward maintaining and providing for the common welfare, i.e. we each expect ourselves to pay our taxes and obey the law, which primarily means minding our own business: we expect our gov't to do the same, especially mind its own business (providing for the common welfare) and leave us alone in all other respects.
quote:

Given that one thinks that he created everything of value in his life, the notion of an obligation to anyone, let alone someone who can't do you any obvious good, is a hard one to accept. Looking after other people in society is a generous act, not an essential part of being human. Failing to educate our citizens has real consequences for the glue that binds us together as a people...

--Tom Clune

Again, I don't see this happening, vis-a-vis failing to educate our children to care about others. Americans have always been very good at VOLUNTARILY helping each other out. It's when the voluntary aspect is taken away, and threatens to turn into obligation mandated by the gov't, that most Americans pull back in disgust and seem to be uncaring. I don't know anybody who accepts being forced to do anything: and that includes the latest popular outrage of being penalized for refusing to obtain health insurance....
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RadicalWhig
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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
...it is focus on the INDIVIDUAL that powers the traditional interpretation of our Bill of Rights, which in turn was the foundation of Constitutional interpretation. This notion that the "common good" trumps individual rights is NOT how "the American dream" got established.

Oh dear. Time for a very quick lesson in constitutional history.

Actually, I'll do it later: it's sunny in Scotland, and that's a rare thing. In the mean time, you might what to look up J A G Pocock's "Machiavellian Moment" and Gordon Wood's "Creation of the American Republic".

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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)

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MerlintheMad
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quote:
Originally posted by Wisewilliam:
Surely it is Ninteenth Century thinking to blame poor people for being poor.

Merlin: What do you want ? Workhouses ? Gruel ? Debtor prisons ? Flog the poor, the weak and mentally ill ? For the love of God, what use is the progress capitalism (bless it) has given to the world if it only benefits the pirates and the fortunate ? A decent society looks after its own people - all of them, not just the lucky.

Charity and a generous mind are part of duty as human beings. This "Each mman for himself and the devil take the hindmost" is uncivilized.

Still Americans have always lived on myth and delusion and that's not going to change soon, is it ?

I'll answer this one (these objections are much alike, sorry I won't appeal to each one):

"Work houses", you say that like it's a bad thing. Well, in the sense that we have success and failure, good luck and bad luck, deserving and undeserving (both positive and negative kinds), yes, "work houses" are a necessary bad thing. Because "the poor will always be with us" is a maxim we can count on. And doling out freebies is the WORST palliative imaginable, yet the one gov't entitlement programs tend to become. We have too many squatters and welfare families, generations of them. The fix is to demand that people work for their food and shelter. Trust the charity of the common volunteer social worker: s/he won't become a slaver or task master. But those working for the gov't often do become just that.

Your attitude toward your southern neighbors is decidedly uncharitable and broad-brushy. I don't know anyone who fits that mold. Everyone (sic) I know is charitable at heart. Most of us as individuals cannot hope to change our own circumstances much at all, and the world around us not at all. There is much hardship and even growing despair. That says nothing about the things that people want.

"For the love of God", we are all in this together and will either sink or swim together. I don't know anyone with "the devil take the hindmost" as their mantra for living!...

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
I don't know anybody who accepts being forced to do anything: and that includes the latest popular outrage of being penalized for refusing to obtain health insurance....

Purchase of health insurance is really the only way to get healthcare costs down. But I'd be willing to see Congress make an exception: as long as you pay, in full, every hospital visit, every doctor visit, every medical test and procedure, at the time services are rendered, then you don't have to pay for health insurance. But if you go to the ER even once and can't fork over the $2000 on the spot, you don't get to bitch about having to pay for health insurance. And you get to start paying for health insurance.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Yes, those rugged American individualists who got free land from the government to strike out across the frontier and be rugged individuals. [Roll Eyes] They probably were in just as much denial about their dependence upon the government as is evidenced here, and in the tea party movement. Old internalized lies die hard.

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MerlintheMad
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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Merlin? Can you do a thought experiment with me? Just for a moment, go back in your mind to the time before you had your house paid for. Imagine that you still have a mortgage.

This is a thought experiment, so I'm going to make up the details. Imagine that you got a modest house with a modest mortgage, for which your payments are a mere 20% of your take-home pay. You didn't get the most house that you could afford, because you were more cautious and prudent than that. And you wanted to put money in savings -- which you did.

Can you imagine that?

Now imagine that, with just three years to go on your mortgage, the financial institutions that hold all your savings failed, and the government did not bail them out, so all your savings disappeared overnight. You worked hard for years, and lived frugally, and were prudent and responsible, and now it's gone. It was through no fault of your own -- you really had no way to know that the bank was investing your money in Ponzi schemes or financial derivatives that were ultimately worthless. So now you don't have any savings to fall back on. Just your current income.

Can you imagine that?

But that's okay, because in just three years, your mortgage will be paid off, and you can increase the amount you're putting into savings then.

Then imagine that one of your children becomes terribly ill. (God forbid it should ever be so.) You start your child on the necessary treatment, and he starts getting better. But he's going to need the very expensive treatment for three to five years. You've got insurance, and by cutting your expenses even more (including the amount you were putting into savings), you can just barely manage the copays and stuff. You're tough, resilient, pro-active. It's hard, but you and your family can do this.

Are you still with me?

Now imagine that, after a year of treatment for your child, your insurance drops you. Now, to get the ongoing treatment for your child, you have to come up with the cash. Without the treatment, your child will suffer, and his life will be at risk. You've got to come up with the money.

But you have nothing in savings. So you take on a part-time job in addition to your full-time job. Your child who is ill requires you to drive him to medical appointments a couple of times a week, and there is therapy to do with him at home between appointments. You aren't getting more than about five hours of sleep a night. But you know this is only temporary, so you can manage it.

Are you with me so far? Can you imagine all of this?

Now imagine that you are on your way from one job to the other, it's gray and drizzly, and you fall asleep behind the wheel. You've gotten so little sleep for so long that even the radio and a cup of coffee couldn't keep you awake.

And you find yourself in the emergency room with a bruised heart, a severe concussion, a couple of broken limbs, and various other injuries. Between the brain injury and the pain meds, it's a week before you're able to think straight, and another week before they're ready to let you go home. Remember, you don't have any insurance. You have now used up all your sick leave on your full-time job, and you've been fired from your part-time job.

Can you imagine that, Merlin?

I like this game. You could be describing yourself or someone you know. Surely this set of "Jonah curses" is occurring all around us. It is one of the reasons why Medicaid and Medicare got established. Medicaid saved my ass. My story:

I started work at my full-time job of c. 29 years in 1975, and started saving right away (company matched retirement savings as well as liquid savings). Met my wife in '76, married in '77, lived in an apartment for almost two years; bought a house halfway through that time and let the renters stay in it until their own house was built. My wife and I entered marriage without debt and both of us had saved several thousand dollars. Our first two (of nine) children came in '78 and '79. As our family grew we saved and rarely touched the retirement income. We paid off our house's 30-year mortgage in c. 17 years. My father-in-law was a gynecologist-obstetrician. He was right there helping out during the lean times and has always been a generous man. I am not proud: anytime someone offers me a gift I take it and say thank you. I never expected of myself to be independent: but where I balk is Gov't taking over the job of my welfare. So, the fact that it was a Farmers Home Loan that kept my house payments low enough to be affordable; and that Medicaid paid the otherwise catastrophic hospital bills attendant with our last child's birth and my wife's renal failure and multiple operations, has always been the hardest part for me to accept. But, I DID accept it at the time: I didn't let pride (or even a lack of self-image) dissuade me from appealing for aid when we needed it. Bottom line: the gov't programs in place at the time caught me and prevented economic collapse. I suggest (or assert, if you prefer) that STILL, MOST people in straitened circumstances can appeal for the same gov't aid. But most people either don't want to (stigma, where they live) or don't know HOW to.

There was never a chance of being actually homeless. Even your example case isn't going to be homeless and starving on the street. There is a safety net available, even if NO other options (e.g. family, friends, church, community) are there to take the brunt of the series of disasters and save the family. The kids won't go hungry or unclothed; there will be somewhere to keep everyone warm and dry; there will be plenty of food. But, if this unfortunate bread-winner must resort of some hypothetical gov't "work house" in order to qualify, so be it: s/he'd best be up and at it as quickly as possible....

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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I'm on board. Now pull up the ladder.

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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Again...I see this as both political parties emphasizing one aspect of the problem ignoring the other.

Nobody is willing to say, not even Merlin the Mad or New Yorker, that everybody who finds themselves in dire straits is there strictly because of their own actions. Question becomes who helps us when we get into trouble. Libertarians and most conservatives want the onus to be on the family and private civic organizations. Liberals want the government to take care of it. If we expect the intermediate institutions to care for those in dire straits, the government must empower them to do so. At this point, we do not. For instance, if I live across the country from my parents and need their assistance, it is hard for them to help me. They may be living paycheck to paycheck themselves and not have the cash to send me. If lived near, they could allow me to move in with them. However, it would be unlikely that I could afford to move cross country if I needed help financially. Plus, once I got back home, there is no guarantee of a job there. Presumably, that is one of the reasons that I left in the first place. Does it strike anybody as odd that the Republican Party claims to support Family Values but put the individual and large corporations above the family?

At the same time, there is only so much that the federal government can do. Like it or not, people sometimes make bad choices that put them in dire straits. We don't help them or society as a whole by absolving them of all individual responsibility and placing the blame on oppressive societal structures. Why is it OK for some people to blame their misfortune on others but not OK for the Tea Party people to do it? Society has a responsibility to provide certain things to its members. However,the individual has a right to live responsibly. As Amitai Etizioni writes, "Respect and uphold society's moral order as you would have society respect and uphold your autonomy."

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

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Cliffdweller:

quote:
They see their benefits as "entitlements", others as "hand outs"
The money I get is an entitlement

The money you get is excusable

The money they get is an immoral handout

And therein lies a great deal about how people think, unfortunatly.

quote:
Because, like it or not, we are all inter-dependent.
Couldn't agree more. Been saying so for years. [Smile]

[ 20. June 2010, 17:21: Message edited by: Papio ]

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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From the article New Yorker linked to:
quote:
“This is not the direction that the country is supposed to be going,” she says, citing financial bailouts, the stimulus bill, health care, immigration. “Things are changing at warp speed in a way that’s not going to be good.”
\
Hard to take this seriously when the woman is obviously ignorant of her own political history.
Read here the words of lefty Richard Nixon.
Financial Bailouts? Which president began that precedent? Oh, yes, Chairman Bush.
But I am sure she organized protests during their regimes as well...

Regarding Mr. Odom: First real job at 24? Upon whose teat was he fasted until then?

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Hallellou, hallellou

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Financial Bailouts? Which president began that precedent? Oh, yes, Chairman Bush.

Actually it was Carter. 1979. Chrysler bailout. Interestingly, no Tea Party formed then.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
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Although that's not really the whole story. Our government annually gives billions of dollars of our tax money to big business in agriculture, energy, etc. But that's not a "bailout" and it wasn't started under a black president. So it doesn't show up on the teashagger radar.

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Horseman Bree
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# 5290

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It is amazing and depressing to see how much is paid to "proud and independent" farmers by the government to distort the workings of a "free" market. This has caused enormous damage to almost all countries that allow imports of food, let alone to the actual family farms that used to be the "backbone of the nation".

And then we have the Ross Perot faction, who made excessive fortunes by playing the procurement games well. Perot at least had the honesty (gall?) to say that, now that he had his billion, that door should be closed - if the voters would just give him power instead. But, TBF, he wasn't particularly angry.

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It's Not That Simple

Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
# 5557

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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Like him, most members of the tea party seem willing to take advantage of government spending that directly benefits them. "Don't touch my Medicare!" It's spending that benefits other people that seems to be a problem. And that disturbs me.

Bingo!

That's what disturbs me too. And that anyone can reconcile such thinking with Christian - no, wait, pretty much any - faith is beyond me.

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My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
# 5557

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quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
I disagree with this historical view. In fact my understanding of the predominant "American" mentality is the opposite of this: it is focus on the INDIVIDUAL that powers the traditional interpretation of our Bill of Rights, which in turn was the foundation of Constitutional interpretation. This notion that the "common good" trumps individual rights is NOT how "the American dream" got established. Your (unintentional?) negativity in the last sentence is interesting, since Americans as a whole NEVER shared such a concept as "leaching off of our civilization". Rather, as sovereign individuals we use our powers of self-reliance to better our own lot, and pay our fair share toward maintaining and providing for the common welfare, i.e. we each expect ourselves to pay our taxes and obey the law, which primarily means minding our own business: we expect our gov't to do the same, especially mind its own business (providing for the common welfare) and leave us alone in all other respects.

That would be the libertarian reading, yes.

Not all Americans share that reading, though, and probably never have. One could just as easily make the claim that the founding fathers of our country took the primacy of the common good for granted, and so spent so much time on particular exceptions that limit encroachment on individual rights.

But the most important distinction is how you look at individual rights: from whose perspective.

Conservatives and libertarians tend to worry about their own individual rights. I think we need to look at it the other way (at least those of us who are coming from a faith perspective) and worry about the rights of others, especially "the least of these."

If it's individual rights you're worried about, worry about every individual's rights, and we should be fine.

As an aside, Merlin, if you believe we should all pay our taxes and obey the laws, then what is it that you want the government to stop doing when you say it should mind its own business and leave us alone? I'm not sure what the government is doing besides making and enforcing laws, and collecting and dispensing tax money. Well, that and national defense, which we all agree requires a government to handle.

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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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