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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Why are the tea partiers so angry?
tobity
Apprentice
# 15684

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Its about the 10th amendment. Freedom. State sovereignty. The Constitution, not Glenn Beck. I have a family heritage that fought and died for the Constitution, not Beck.
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Still, I ask again: please point out the legislation that is "touching" your family, your faith, and/or your guns. Thank you.



--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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tobity
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Obama and Biden gave under 1% of their incomes to charity!
Liberals are great at sharing other peoples cash!
Stingy when it comes to their own web page

[ 22. June 2010, 16:31: Message edited by: tobity ]

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tobity
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erin are you high?
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tobity
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The Brady bill
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tobity
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minors ability to get an abortion without parental consent....erin
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
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How is a minor not having to have parental consent for an abortion affecting you? It's not preventing you from doing anything, is it?

--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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tobity
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ar 15's are awesome...cost about 1 k...

these are great weapons.. www.rockriverarms.com/

Posts: 29 | From: texas | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged
tobity
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erin...brady bill......
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RadicalWhig
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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Wow, the point is standing in front of you and screaming and you still totally miss it. Libertarians believe that no one should be compelled to do anything for the greater good.

For sake of argument I can accept that as a true (if somewhat approximate) statement of extreme libertarian beliefs. (Classical liberals in the Lockean tradition believed that people could be forced by the whole to do things for the common good - like pay taxes for the upkeep of the State - but merely sought to limit that as much as practically possible.) However, the reason that I am not a libertarian, or even a classical liberal, is that I do not believe the classical liberal/libertarian approach to be based on a sufficiently deep or robust concept of freedom: it is based on freedom as non-interference (that government is best which governs least), whereas I prefer freedom as non-domination (that government is best which governs justly for the common good - it being implied that the people have decisive role in determining what their common good is, and in holding their governs to account for their stewardship). This latter approach is right slap-bang in the middle of the American constitutional tradition up to the Civil War - only after that did an "individual rights" concept of freedom trump a "common good" concept.

If you look at the bill of rights and similar parts of early State constitutions, the rights were not intended as individual rights, but as public rights - rights which enable people to act as good, public-spirited citizens: not to be "left alone by the Government", but to freely participate in public affairs.

quote:
The decision to "co-ordinate for the common goods" should be up to the individual, not a faceless government agency.
I disagree. There are common goods which only the power of the State can enforce, and should: that is the legitimate role of the "magistrate". But it poses the question of why are you so alienated from your Government? The use of the word "faceless" seems like an implied argument for greater democracy and accountability, nor less government.

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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)

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tobity
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look if you enjoy being told how to live by the state then knock yourself out....just leave me out of your utopia...The soviet union, cuba, vietnam, north korea all suck ass. China seems to like capitalism. Out!
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RadicalWhig
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quote:
Originally posted by tobity:
these are great weapons.. www.rockriverarms.com/

Your point being?

--------------------
Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)

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moron
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# 206

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quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
But it poses the question of why are you so alienated from your Government?

Hopefully Erin will forgive my barging in.

Personally, it's a function of accountability which is largely contingent on proximity. In my hometown my brother voluntarily serves on the board which oversees the HUD housing; recently when my buddy who'd been in prison needed a place to stay my brother, informed by me, knew my buddy was a good risk for 'government assistance'. My buddy is as we speak fasttracking for success in the largest private sector employer in the area in addition to moving into a house he is purchasing with the money he earns.

Contrast that with Obama usurping my (I believe, God-given) right to not support his IMNSHO wantonly profligate 'programs'.


(I hope that makes sense. [Hot and Hormonal] )

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
By interventionist, I mean interventionist in foreign affairs not interventionist in individual or state rights. True libertarians only believe in defensive wars. For them, the last just war was the War of 1812.

Anybody else just tickled that such libertarians believe in war that the US lost? And might I remind them of the extensive campaigns the US launched to try to conquer Upper and Lower Canada?

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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lilBuddha
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Must...not...

ETA: response to tobity

[ 22. June 2010, 17:24: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by tobity:
China seems to like capitalism.

Twenty-one of the twenty-two largest Chinese corporations are either directly controlled by the Chinese government or have a majority of their shares owned by China's central bank. That doesn't fit into any definition of "capitalism" that I've ever heard. If I had to characterize this system I'd call it feudal-style industrialism. Or maybe industrialized feudalism. [Confused]

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by tobity:
Individual pursuits trump the common good in a fallen world. It is naive to believe that those entrusted with power will not put themselves first. Trust in God and self, not the state. Fend for yourself or shut the $!#@ up you little bitch. Ha ha!

Ah yes, we are supposed to believe the Tea Party has anything to do with faith. It does not. Glenn Beck calls those who disagree with him communists. At the same time, he suggests that people read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. The only philosophy harder to reconcile with the gospel than Communism is the Objectivism of Ayn Rand and her ilk.

Saying that a fallen world calls for less government as opposed to more government is one of the most philosophically and theologically dubious statements I've heard in a long time. Most scriptural support for a fallen world comes from Paul. You would be hard pressed to suggest Paul believes in small government. Second, the political philosopher who puts the most emphasis on humanity as fallen and depraved is Thomas Hobbes. Hobbes was not in favor of small government.

I would only be a libertarian if I believed in the basic goodness of all humans. I do not hence I'm not one. If I believe people are fallen and prone to corruption, I don't want power to be amassed in any one place. Why would I give power to multinational corporations unfettered by a strong government? I wouldn't. I would want as many checks and balances as possible. Instead of all the books written by talk radio hosts, perhaps you should try The Conservative Mind by Russell Kirk. It isn't perfect but it might give you an introduction to what being a conservative truly means.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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tobity
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# 15684

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lil buddha....your so enlightened....so bright...so full of crap..thank you for sharing your brillance..lil prick
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tobity
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China is competing in the world market...sounds capitalistic to me...your confusing the production side of things with consumption/sales. China is really a mix of facism with capitalism...communism is an insular economic system...China isn't. It plays on the world markets and is itself played on.

[ 22. June 2010, 19:13: Message edited by: tobity ]

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lilBuddha
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Erin,

It isn't that I do not understand what libertarian means. I do believe that even if it were a desirable ideal, it is an unobtainable one.
What I was saying is what one person considers harm to themselves often collides with that which another considers their freedom.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Barnabas62
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lilBuddah

You don't get to identify trolls. That's for H & A.

tobity

You're new here so I'll cut you a bit of slack. Stick to the arguments and back off the personal insults. Check Commandment 3 and Purgatory Guideline No 1, which you agreed to follow when you signed on.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host


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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by 205:
[QUOTE]
Personally, it's a function of accountability which is largely contingent on proximity. In my hometown my brother voluntarily serves on the board which oversees the HUD housing; recently when my buddy who'd been in prison needed a place to stay my brother, informed by me, knew my buddy was a good risk for 'government assistance'. My buddy is as we speak fasttracking for success in the largest private sector employer in the area in addition to moving into a house he is purchasing with the money he earns.

Contrast that with Obama usurping my (I believe, God-given) right to not support his IMNSHO wantonly profligate 'programs'.


(I hope that makes sense. [Hot and Hormonal] )

Not really... perhaps I'm missing something.

Just because your brother oversees it, doesn't make the HUD program in your hometown any less of a federal program. It seems to me that you want to support govt programs that benefit your friends or people you know/can see, but want the option of being able to opt out of those that benefit some anonymous someone that lives somewhere else, and is therefore less deserving than your friend.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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tobity
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# 15684

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lilbuddah can piss on me and you guys are cool with that? I was on topic.
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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
True libertarians are non-interventionists and want the government to mind its own business on moral issues.

Such as murder?
<snip>
I think those who campaigned for a change of laws governing slavery in the US were both libertarians and interventionists.
<snip>

Murder? No, libertarians believe that the proper activity of government is to protect us from force and fraud.
And murder is not force? Surely it is the clearest example of the ultimate use of force to deprive someone else of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

Unless, that is, you are saying that murder is simply an example of the illegal use of force. But I take it that you mean the use of force by outsiders to deprive the US of "government of the people, by the people, for the people".

Well, why should the government of the people for the people by the people not be interested in such uses of force by those within the community. Interested enough to establish laws and the means of their reinforcement?

I don't get you.

Of course murder is force. A proper roll of government would be to arrest and punish me if I were to kill you unless I was defending me or mine from you. However, it would not be a proper roll of government to arrest you for sitting on your back porch and smoking dope while watching the sunset.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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tobity
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# 15684

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The Tea party is about this:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. (10th amendment)

Limited government. State sovereignty.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Rather than just limiting to protect individual rights, could we not co-ordinate for common goods?

If you and another choose to do that, fine.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by tobity:
lilbuddah can piss on me and you guys are cool with that? I was on topic.

Calling someone a prick is not on topic.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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tobity
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# 15684

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mouse...neither is calling me a troll...unbelievable [Smile]
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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I would only be a libertarian if I believed in the basic goodness of all humans. I do not hence I'm not one. If I believe people are fallen and prone to corruption, I don't want power to be amassed in any one place. Why would I give power to multinational corporations unfettered by a strong government? I wouldn't. I would want as many checks and balances as possible.

I don't believe in the basic goodness of all humans, either. That's why I find the libertarian idea far more attractive than any of the alternatives. Why would I give power to a strong government?

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by tobity:
mouse...neither is calling me a troll...unbelievable [Smile]

Irrelevant to the question of whether you were on topic. On this Ship, two wrongs do not make a right. If someone is abusing you in purg, you PM a host. You don't abuse back. I didn't say whether or not lilBuddha was on topic, because s/he didn't claim to be. You did claim to be, and you were wrong. Citing someone else's wrongdoing does not make yours okay.

At first your tea party was all about fucking over the undeserving poor. Now all of a sudden it's about states' rights. Which since 1964 in this country has been code speak for racism.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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moron
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# 206

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Not really... perhaps I'm missing something.

I chose an inconsistent example; I could have lied and said it was a completely locally managed program...

HUD exists and no doubt has some merit. The point I want to make is the more local the government, the better.

And I wholeheartedly believe that the government that governs least governs best and that when we are ready it is the type of government we will have.

IMO Obama is moving us farther away from that ideal.

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Organ Builder
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# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Rather than just limiting to protect individual rights, could we not co-ordinate for common goods?

If you and another choose to do that, fine.
Sounds a bit like Radical Whig might have in mind something to "establish Justice" or to "insure domestic Tranquillity" or to "promote the general Welfare".

Now where have I seen those phrases before? Must not have been very important...

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
Originally posted by tobity:
The Tea party is about this:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. (10th amendment)

Limited government. State sovereignty.

Wait, do you want limited government or state sovereignty?

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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Organ Builder
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# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by 205:
The point I want to make is the more local the government, the better.

Have you ever been to a Homeowner's Association meeting?

They are pretty good about "getting things done". They aren't so much into protecting individual liberties.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by tobity:
The Tea party is about this:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. (10th amendment)

Limited government. State sovereignty.

Wait, do you want limited government or state sovereignty?
It's not an either/or, Erin.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I don't believe in the basic goodness of all humans, either. That's why I find the libertarian idea far more attractive than any of the alternatives. Why would I give power to a strong government?

Because the only alternative is giving power to superstrong international corporations. And governments can be unelected every 2-4 years.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I don't believe in the basic goodness of all humans, either. That's why I find the libertarian idea far more attractive than any of the alternatives. Why would I give power to a strong government?

Because the only alternative is giving power to superstrong international corporations. And governments can be unelected every 2-4 years.
It isn't the only alternative.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by tobity:
The Tea party is about this:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. (10th amendment)

Limited government. State sovereignty.

Wait, do you want limited government or state sovereignty?
It's not an either/or, Erin.
It kind of is. Unless the only bad government is the federal government, which, after reading this appalling article, is not necessarily the truth. But basically what you're saying is that it's perfectly ok for the state, county and city to fuck you up the ass, but God forbid the federal government make the attempt, right?

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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moron
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# 206

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quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Have you ever been to a Homeowner's Association meeting?

Participated in my fair share as I spearheaded the effort to get municipal water to a subdivision I lived in. Well over 90%, determined by secret ballot, wanted to get rid of the finicky well.

You can talk face to face with the people who want to change things and their impact for good or ill is comparatively very constricted, unlike Federal gov't.

But you know that. [Biased]

Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
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# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by 205:
...their impact for good or ill is comparatively very constricted, unlike Federal gov't.

It is, however, much more immediately a pain in the butt.

Americans of a "certain age" will remember Gladys Kravitz on Bewitched. I swear to you that she is our current HA president. Now that she has our subdivision firmly in hand, she is turning in other subdivisions for "code violations".

In a few more years, she will probably be a senator or representative in the state house.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
tobity
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# 15684

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erin...you created a false dilemma
Posts: 29 | From: texas | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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No, I didn't. In one breath, you say limited government. In the next, you say state sovereignty. What do you think state sovereignty is? The ability to enact any law it wishes. You're just trading the federal government for the local government. I don't understand why it's OK for one to legislate the hell out of you but not the other.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Shadowhund
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# 9175

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Exactly, false dilemma. My own local government has screwed the taxpayer/citizen in worse ways that the federal government. I am not a tea partier, but there is nothing inconsistent with being a tea partier and favoring (a) greater police power at the local level and (b) less federal pre-emption of state authority. Granted, the Republican Party loves federal preemption when it comes to liberalizing state regulation of commerce, but the Democrats, not so much, when it involves trial lawyer interests.

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"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"

A.N. Wilson

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tobity
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# 15684

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Motif: limited local government
Maxim: government of the people by the people for the people

Posts: 29 | From: texas | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged
tobity
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# 15684

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The Glenn Beck show is on....I must go.
Dona nobis pacem.

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
It kind of is. Unless the only bad government is the federal government, which, after reading this appalling article, is not necessarily the truth.

Hey, the activist wasn't arrested for it.

Everyone repeat after me: "Am I being detained?"

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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
No, I didn't. In one breath, you say limited government. In the next, you say state sovereignty. What do you think state sovereignty is? The ability to enact any law it wishes. You're just trading the federal government for the local government. I don't understand why it's OK for one to legislate the hell out of you but not the other.

If you don't find your state and local government to be at least marginally more responsive/accountable than FedGovCo. then I must say, I am truly sorry for you.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
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# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by tobity:
lilbuddah can piss on me and you guys are cool with that? I was on topic.

Host Hat On
A little more slack and then slack is over for you.

1. Hinting at trollery on this site is a form of junior Hosting and lilBuddah was named and corrected.

2. You crossed the C3 and Purg 1 line ( twice as it happens) and got a gentle correction.

Now here is another line for you to note, which you've also crossed. If you want to query a Host's ruling you do so in the Styx, not on the thread. Any more comment from you on my ruling on this thread and you get reported to Admin for ignoring a Host's ruling - this one.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host


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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Every now and then the redneck establishment around here drags its knuckles into the 20th century. But it's hard.

But, I totally missed this, seeing as we have a real live teabagger on board. A prime example of "limited government" is unfolding before our very eyes. We've survived eight years of government of the corporations (particularly oil), by the corporations (again, oil) and for the corporations (come on, you know this one... OIL!). Deepwater Horizon is the direct result of the government not overburdening the poor widdle oil industry with pesky safety regulations or inspections. Is that really the world you want to live in? Tell me, in your "limited government" world, how is Deepwater Horizon avoided?

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by 205:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Not really... perhaps I'm missing something.

I chose an inconsistent example; I could have lied and said it was a completely locally managed program...

HUD exists and no doubt has some merit. The point I want to make is the more local the government, the better.

And I wholeheartedly believe that the government that governs least governs best and that when we are ready it is the type of government we will have.

IMO Obama is moving us farther away from that ideal.

Nonetheless, the fact remains that you DID cite the HUD example, and I think it proves my point. When the federal program in question is managed by your brother and benefits a friend, you are in favor of it. You're closer to it, you're able to see that the ones administering it are not all mindless bureaucratic drones clocking in and drinking coffee on the taxpayer's dime-- some are caring professionals, including volunteers like your brother. And you're able to see that the recipients are not all lazy, shiftless bums conning the system, but honest people like your friend who just need a leg up to self-sufficiency.

Of course, that's not true of everyone. Even in that selfsame HUD program, there will be mindless bureaucratic drones leeching off the system, and lazy cons defrauding the system. But you know what? You'll find them in locally administered programs as well. In fact, sometimes local corruption is the worst and most endemic.

And what you found true of the HUD program is true of many other federal programs as well. In fact, generally the fact that you don't know about them is a sign they're working well. It's only when they break down and aren't working that we become aware of them. Which only points out all the more why we need them-- properly administered of course.

We should all care about fraud and waste and corruption and learned dependency. But getting rid of those things is not as easy as just passing the buck on down the line to the lowest level of local govt.

[ 22. June 2010, 21:58: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged



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