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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: PSA and Christian Identities
tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
Any argument that starts with words similar to "Surely, though, everyone with decent reasoning enlightened by the Word can see..." should be dismissed out of hand. Such an opening is tantamount to saying "You are an idiot if you don't believe what I do."

Is it only me who sees this as self-contradictory? When you say that an argument should be dismissed out of hand, it sounds an awful lot like saying that you are an idiot if you don't believe that...

--Tom Clune

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mousethief

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Good post, jrrt01. Lots to chew on. It makes a lot of sense and fits well with what I know of church history.

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sharkshooter

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quote:
Originally posted by Psyduck:
So what is meant by "scripturally accurate"?

I would take it to mean "supported by a study of the scriptures".

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Psyduck:
So what is meant by "scripturally accurate"?

I would take it to mean "supported by a study of the scriptures".
The problem with this is that nearly anything can be supported by a study of the scriptures. There are 1000x1000 different theologies and scraps of theologies out there, each one claiming to be supported by the scriptures, and most mutually exclusive with one another.

Or are you saying that what matters is that it is important enough to one to at least try to find a scriptural argument for one's position?

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
"Surely, though, everyone with decent reasoning enlightened by the Word can see that God is compassion and mercy itself. He is absolute love and absolute goodness - these qualities are his essence. It is a contradiction to say that compassion itself or absolute goodness could look at the human race with anger and lock us all into damnation, and still keep its divine essence. Attitudes and actions of that kind belong to a wicked person, not a virtuous one."

Let me get this straight. The more loving one is, the more evil one is prepared to permit, and the less justice one is prepared to exact. Surely the wilful permission of evil and refusal to exact justice as a penalty for wickedness is, in itself, indicative of a lack of love for the oppressed, the downtrodden, the sinned against, the overlooked, and exploited. If God has no wrath these people have no advocate or protector.

[ 02. July 2010, 17:26: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]

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mousethief

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God willingly permits evil now, Nump. Is that from a lack of love?

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
God willingly permits evil now, Nump. Is that from a lack of love?

No, it's patience.
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daronmedway
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If you don't believe in God's wrath you cannot sing the Kýrie eléison with any real meaning.
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leo
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Not true. The Greek is more nuanced that a mere plea for mercy. Rather, is is a statement of faith. It echoes 1 Chronicles 16:34 and a psalm (136?) ...give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever...

Its an acknowledgment of what God has done, what God is doing, and what God will continue to do.

The idea that it is a plea for mercy is very Western, an appeal to an wrathful God. The Greek root is also the word for oil so you could translate it: ‘Lord, soothe me, comfort me, take away my pain, show me your steadfast love.’

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mousethief

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If God has no wrath these people have no advocate or protector.

There are plenty of human beings who advocate for the poor, downtrodden, etc. without wrath. Indeed the ones with the least wrath are generally considered the most virtuous (e.g. Mom Teresa). Why does God need wrath to do the same thing?

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If God has no wrath these people have no advocate or protector.

There are plenty of human beings who advocate for the poor, downtrodden, etc. without wrath. Indeed the ones with the least wrath are generally considered the most virtuous (e.g. Mom Teresa). Why does God need wrath to do the same thing?

Yes, that because vengeance isn't evil; vengeance is God's.
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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Not true. The Greek is more nuanced that a mere plea for mercy. Rather, is is a statement of faith. It echoes 1 Chronicles 16:34 and a psalm (136?) ...give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever...

Its an acknowledgment of what God has done, what God is doing, and what God will continue to do.

The idea that it is a plea for mercy is very Western, an appeal to an wrathful God. The Greek root is also the word for oil so you could translate it: ‘Lord, soothe me, comfort me, take away my pain, show me your steadfast love.’

You can read Wiki too - well done. Why the connection between God's mercy and our sin then? Why do we specifically entreat God's mercy when confessing our own sin? In what way does mercy deal with our sin? What would happen if mercy were withheld? What are the benefits of mercy bestowed? Why the Jesus prayer?
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Gamaliel
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I'm interested in the responses Call Me Numpty gets to his questions. I've often wondered the same thing.

It strikes me that whilst 'the West', post-Augustine, may have overdosed to some extent on wrath, judgement and weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, the Christian East may sometimes run to the opposite error of acting as if everything's hunky-dory and that sin is no big deal.

The Eastern view is certainly more 'humane' ... which is enough to make some Westerners suspicious in and of itself. [Biased]

I've knocked around with the Orthodox sufficiently to pick up the fact that they do take sin seriously and aren't blaise about it. But I's so steeped in Augustinian influences that I still find their very unwrathful God hard to get to grips with, as it were. Of course, He's the same as ours, but seemingly in a better mood ...

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Not true. The Greek is more nuanced that a mere plea for mercy. Rather, is is a statement of faith. It echoes 1 Chronicles 16:34 and a psalm (136?) ...give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever...

Its an acknowledgment of what God has done, what God is doing, and what God will continue to do.

The idea that it is a plea for mercy is very Western, an appeal to an wrathful God. The Greek root is also the word for oil so you could translate it: ‘Lord, soothe me, comfort me, take away my pain, show me your steadfast love.’

You can read Wiki too - well done. Why the connection between God's mercy and our sin then? Why do we specifically entreat God's mercy when confessing our own sin? In what way does mercy deal with our sin? What would happen if mercy were withheld? What are the benefits of mercy bestowed? Why the Jesus prayer?
Actually, I got it some time ago, for a sermon I was doing on the mass, from 'The Meaning of Kyrie Eleison by Anthony M. Coniaris'.

The Jesus prayer asserts the same feelings, otherwise I wouldn't use it because it would be reinforcing toxic, subChristian images of God, as does PSA generally.

[ 02. July 2010, 18:35: Message edited by: leo ]

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've knocked around with the Orthodox sufficiently to pick up the fact that they do take sin seriously and aren't blaise about it. But I's so steeped in Augustinian influences that I still find their very unwrathful God hard to get to grips with, as it were. Of course, He's the same as ours, but seemingly in a better mood ...

He doesn't have to put up with Augustinianism when he's with us.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If God has no wrath these people have no advocate or protector.

There are plenty of human beings who advocate for the poor, downtrodden, etc. without wrath. Indeed the ones with the least wrath are generally considered the most virtuous (e.g. Mom Teresa). Why does God need wrath to do the same thing?

Yes, that because vengeance isn't evil; vengeance is God's.
Ah, it's the old "do as I say, not as I do." Because Jesus was so vengeful when he was with us. Like to the woman caught in adultery. And Zaccheus. Inter alia. And he never does anything he doesn't see his Father doing.

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daronmedway
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No, it the old "what scripture says" not what I think is right canard, I'm afraid MT. It's actually quite simple. Vengeance isn't evil, but we are. Vengeance is good, therefore is requires that someone good should exact it. We must not take vengeance because we too are sinners in need of mercy. God, on other hand, can and will take vengeance because he is good.
quote:
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.The Apostle Paul
Vengeance belongs to God; that's why we mustn't avenge ourselves. God intends to do it for us.

[ 02. July 2010, 18:56: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If God has no wrath these people have no advocate or protector.

There are plenty of human beings who advocate for the poor, downtrodden, etc. without wrath. Indeed the ones with the least wrath are generally considered the most virtuous (e.g. Mom Teresa). Why does God need wrath to do the same thing?

Yes, that because vengeance isn't evil; vengeance is God's.
Ah, it's the old "do as I say, not as I do." Because Jesus was so vengeful when he was with us. Like to the woman caught in adultery. And Zaccheus. Inter alia. And he never does anything he doesn't see his Father doing.
quote:
When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 1 Peter 2:23
How does this verse work then?
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Gamaliel
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I don't have to put up with Augustinianism when I knock around with you guys either, Mousethief. But I do see a lot that would probably make the Baby Jesus cry ... [Frown]

As indeed I do this side of the Schism ...

I'm still interested in the answers to Numpty's questions. It strikes me that people do get punished or zapped for wrong-doing in Orthodox hagiography and myth, so there must be a concept of 'vengeance is mine, I will repay' in there as well as within Western traditions.

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tomsk
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jrrt01

Some would say that controversies over apparent identity symbols are such problems because they are in fact representative of something else. For instance, as some see homosexuality as proscribed in scripture, the is issue is therefore about scriptural authority.

Don't know if that changes your analysis, but I think that for many identity does form about about the overt issue rather than the underlying one. Is that what you mean by tacit and implicit?

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
"Surely, though, everyone with decent reasoning enlightened by the Word can see that God is compassion and mercy itself. He is absolute love and absolute goodness - these qualities are his essence. It is a contradiction to say that compassion itself or absolute goodness could look at the human race with anger and lock us all into damnation, and still keep its divine essence. Attitudes and actions of that kind belong to a wicked person, not a virtuous one."

Let me get this straight. The more loving one is, the more evil one is prepared to permit, and the less justice one is prepared to exact. Surely the wilful permission of evil and refusal to exact justice as a penalty for wickedness is, in itself, indicative of a lack of love for the oppressed, the downtrodden, the sinned against, the overlooked, and exploited. If God has no wrath these people have no advocate or protector.
Numpty, could you please explain to me how "exacting justice" by "punishing wickedness" does anything whatsoever for any of the victims you describe. I can see how "punishment", as long as it is redemptive (in which case it is better called discipline) could be beneficial to the perpetrator, but hardly to the victim. It doesn't make their situation any better, and merely increases the net amount of suffering in the world. My understanding is that God "enacts" rather than "exacts" justice. Through the atonement he destroys the power of sin and death, freeing the sinner from the oppressing forces of sin.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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mousethief

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"Everybody loves to see justice done
On somebody else"

--Bruce Cockburn

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 1 Peter 2:23
How does this verse work then?
Are you saying that Jesus was patiently waiting for the Father to zap those creeps, so therefore he didn't have to do it himself?

Is that why he said, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do"?

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
"Surely, though, everyone with decent reasoning enlightened by the Word can see that God is compassion and mercy itself. He is absolute love and absolute goodness - these qualities are his essence. It is a contradiction to say that compassion itself or absolute goodness could look at the human race with anger and lock us all into damnation, and still keep its divine essence. Attitudes and actions of that kind belong to a wicked person, not a virtuous one."

Let me get this straight. The more loving one is, the more evil one is prepared to permit, and the less justice one is prepared to exact. Surely the wilful permission of evil and refusal to exact justice as a penalty for wickedness is, in itself, indicative of a lack of love for the oppressed, the downtrodden, the sinned against, the overlooked, and exploited. If God has no wrath these people have no advocate or protector.
Numpty, could you please explain to me how "exacting justice" by "punishing wickedness" does anything whatsoever for any of the victims you describe.
It releases them from the cycle of unjust destruction that ensues when sinners attempt to take vengeance upon each other. It also releases them from the pain of thinking that the injustices for which they refuse to take vengeance will be swept under the carpet of the universe. They can rest in knowledge that those offences will be paid for in one of two places: on the cross (meaning the ultimate redemption of their enemies); or in hell (meaning the eternal conscious torment of their enemies).

For the true Christian, this gives fresh impetus to pray for one's enemies because by God's grace we may come to a point of sincerely desiring their redemption not their destruction. However, it is also permissible for the Christian to "leave room for God's wrath" for those who've committed offences and who remain intransigently unrepentant, as Jesus did for those who were crucifying him.

[ 02. July 2010, 20:27: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 1 Peter 2:23
How does this verse work then?
Are you saying that Jesus was patiently waiting for the Father to zap those creeps, so therefore he didn't have to do it himself?

Is that why he said, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do"?

I'm saying that Jesus left that decision to the Father, who judges justly. That certainly doesn't preclude their being cast into hell.
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Boogie

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Forgiven by God and cast into hell?

Interesting ....

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Forgiven by God and cast into hell?

Interesting ....

I didn't say that. I said that Jesus prayed that his enemies would be forgiven. But that doesn't mean his prayers were answered. Their forgiveness would be contingent upon their conversion and repentance, just like everyone else. As the Apostle Peter said Jesus entrusted himself to the One who judges justly. Sometimes condemnation is just; sometimes forgiveness is just.
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Boogie

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Too many conditions there imo. Whatever happened to unconditional love?

Also - Jesus was able to forgive, was he not? If he said 'Forgive them' surely they were forgiven?

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mousethief

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I think the only way to square this circle is to say Jesus wanted to forgive them with his human will, but not his divine will. Because his divine will cannot be out of synch with the Father's, and Numpty has said God might not forgive these people after all, even after Jesus asks him to.

But I think this ignores the second half of what he says, "for they know not what they do." Mitigating circumstances. Not "for they have realized what they do and have repented."

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Bullfrog.

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Too many conditions there imo. Whatever happened to unconditional love?

Also - Jesus was able to forgive, was he not? If he said 'Forgive them' surely they were forgiven?

Does unconditional love allow room for judgment, because Jesus was awfully judgmental sometimes.

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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Too many conditions there imo. Whatever happened to unconditional love?

Also - Jesus was able to forgive, was he not? If he said 'Forgive them' surely they were forgiven?

Jesus asked for the cup to pass him by, surely the cup he didn't have to drink it? Jesus asked for the cup to pass because he was scared: the Father said no. Jesus asked for his enemies to be forgiven because he is merciful: the Father may have said no - we don't know. Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies, I think because vengeance belongs to God. Does that mean that our enemies will repent? No, it doesn't. Doesn't that mean that our enemies won't go to hell. No, it doesn't.
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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Too many conditions there imo. Whatever happened to unconditional love?

Also - Jesus was able to forgive, was he not? If he said 'Forgive them' surely they were forgiven?

Does unconditional love allow room for judgment, because Jesus was awfully judgmental sometimes.
Well according to Jesus in Luke 12 it certainly does.
quote:
4"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies]? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.


[ 02. July 2010, 21:06: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 1 Peter 2:23
How does this verse work then?
Are you saying that Jesus was patiently waiting for the Father to zap those creeps, so therefore he didn't have to do it himself?

Is that why he said, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do"?

I'm saying that Jesus left that decision to the Father, who judges justly. That certainly doesn't preclude their being cast into hell.
So you are of the opinion that Jesus' prayer might be answered by the Father in the negative? How does this square with Jesus claim that God had entrusted Him with the Judgement, as per, for example, John 5:27

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daronmedway
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Jesus will judge those people on the basis of regeneracy in the same way as everyone else. Jesus' prayer to the Father isn't a simple transaction by which Jesus says, "Father, please do this" and the Father does it. The way that Jesus' prayer was answered by the Father may, for example, have been their conversion on the day of Pentecost or some other later date. Or, it may transpire that Jesus will judge some them as unrepentant on the last day in which case the Father will throw them into hell.
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Jolly Jape
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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Forgiven by God and cast into hell?

Interesting ....

I didn't say that. I said that Jesus prayed that his enemies would be forgiven. But that doesn't mean his prayers were answered. Their forgiveness would be contingent upon their conversion and repentance, just like everyone else. As the Apostle Peter said Jesus entrusted himself to the One who judges justly. Sometimes condemnation is just; sometimes forgiveness is just.
The problem with this argument is that if you define "just" in such a way that it allows for forgiveness to be just, (as I would) then you remove the need for a penal aspect to the atonement.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Jesus will judge those people on the basis of regeneracy in the same way as everyone else. Jesus' prayer to the Father isn't a simple transaction by which Jesus says, "Father, please do this" and the Father does it. The way that Jesus' prayer was answered by the Father may, for example, have been their conversion on the day of Pentecost or some other later date. Or, it may transpire that Jesus will judge some them as unrepentant on the last day in which case the Father will throw them into hell.

Jesus doesn't pray, "Father, bring these people to repentance and regeneration", He prays "forgive them", which is in line with all the other examples in the Gospels where forgiveness is freely dispensed by Jesu.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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daronmedway
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Not at all. Quite the reverse in fact. God's forgiveness would be unjust in every circumstance had not Christ paid the penalty for sin. God's forebearance isn't free floating - it is rooted in the penalty for sin paid at the cross. Unpunished sin is unjust.

God demonstrated his justice, precisely because he had left sin unpunished. God therefore demonstrated himself as just by presenting the Son as an atonement for that unpunished sin. God could be accused of unjustly forgiving sin has he not presented Christ as a propitiation for the sin that he had overlooked.

Now the Father can point to the cross as concrete evidence that he is both just and and the one who justifies.
quote:
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.[i]Romans 3:25-26

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Jesus will judge those people on the basis of regeneracy in the same way as everyone else. Jesus' prayer to the Father isn't a simple transaction by which Jesus says, "Father, please do this" and the Father does it. The way that Jesus' prayer was answered by the Father may, for example, have been their conversion on the day of Pentecost or some other later date. Or, it may transpire that Jesus will judge some them as unrepentant on the last day in which case the Father will throw them into hell.

Jesus doesn't pray, "Father, bring these people to repentance and regeneration", He prays "forgive them", which is in line with all the other examples in the Gospels where forgiveness is freely dispensed by Jesu.
He was being crucified, I doubt he had much time to explain the complex process by which the Father leads people to repentance and the forgiveness of their sins! But the Father doesn't cut corners, even in response to the prayers of the Son. Everyone comes to him on the same footing, so the only way for those people to be forgiven is by grace through faith in Christ. There is no other way.
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Psyduck

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Call me Numpty:
quote:
But the Father doesn't cut corners, even in response to the prayers of the Son.
One of the huge reservations I have always had about PSA is connected with its implications for the doctrine of the Trinity. I think that there's something Trinitarianly wrong with this statement. I think it's extremely difficult not to set the Son over against the Father within a PSA framework in a way which violates the principle opera trinitatis ad extra non sunt divisa. It seems to me that you are further in real danger of subordinationism, and even practical Arianism, here. You don't just recognize the coequal homoousian divinity of the Son with the Father by saying you do. It has to permeate your theology. I think there is at least the danger of a serious distortion here.

[ETA that's a tad disingenuous. I don't have reservations about PSA - I reject it.]

[ 02. July 2010, 22:00: Message edited by: Psyduck ]

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"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Not at all. Quite the reverse in fact. God's forgiveness would be unjust in every circumstance had not Christ paid the penalty for sin. God's forebearance isn't free floating - it is rooted in the penalty for sin paid at the cross. Unpunished sin is unjust.

God demonstrated his justice, precisely because he had left sin unpunished. God therefore demonstrated himself as just by presenting the Son as an atonement for that unpunished sin. God could be accused of unjustly forgiving sin has he not presented Christ as a propitiation for the sin that he had overlooked.

Now the Father can point to the cross as concrete evidence that he is both just and and the one who justifies.
quote:
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.[i]Romans 3:25-26

Well that is, of course, the assertion behind PSA. But it does depend for its logic on a particular definition of justice which is rooted in retribution. The problem is that such a view of justice is woefully inadequate. Justice like that is of no benefit to any of the parties involved. For God, he ends up destroying the vast majority of those whom He loves, for the victim, their final state is no better than their first, and for the lost, they demonstrate that, in the end, evil can triumph over good. If, on the other hand, God is far wiser, more loving and more gracious than this schema allows for, then justice means, not retribution bust restoration.

And, of course, the very verse you quote is crucial to this understanding. God doesn't punish, because on the cross he shows a better way than retribution, demonstrating that there is nothing we can do that is so vile that cannot be dealt with by the unconditional forgiveness of God, who, in Jesus, overcomes evil not with the force of avengeing angels, but with the humilitu if love and self sacrifice. Anything leaa powerful than this would not be powerful enough to truely defeat evil and sin.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Jolly Jape
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Sorry about the spelling - I'm posting on my Blackberry. Hope everyone gets the gist of it.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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daronmedway
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That's lovely. It's creative. It's appealing. It's acceptably vanilla. It's just not in the bible.
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Psyduck

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Call me Numpty
quote:
That's lovely. It's creative. It's appealing. It's acceptably vanilla. It's just not in the bible.
Yes it is:
quote:
For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.



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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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daronmedway
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For example Luke 19:11-27 simply doesn't read that at all! If justice is restorative and nor retributive why on earth is Jesus so misleading about it? I mean, what is he playing at? And there's loads like that.

quote:
11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a]'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'
14"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'

15"He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

16"The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'

17" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

18"The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'

19"His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'

20"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'

22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'

24"Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'

25" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'

26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."


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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Psyduck:
Call me Numpty
quote:
That's lovely. It's creative. It's appealing. It's acceptably vanilla. It's just not in the bible.
Yes it is:
quote:
For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.


Yes, but that verse doesn't go into how the world might be saved through him. You have to elsewhere for that. Remember: never read a bible verse. Jesus was sent into the world to save it. PSA explains how.
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Psyduck

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Call me Numpty:
quote:
Yes, but that verse doesn't go into how the world might be saved through him. You have to elsewhere for that. Remember: never read a bible verse. Jesus was sent into the world to save it. PSA explains how.
D'you know, I wish you'd posted that on the other PSA thread - the "Atonement - only one" thread. ISTM that what you are saying is that the Bible on its own is insufficient for an understanding of doctrine. You have to take verses out of the Bible, assemble them as a doctrine, then read them back in. And the doctrine is PSA.

In all seriousness, don't you think that that's an assertion that the significance of PSA is that it's the one approved, comprehensive way of understanding what God is doing in Jesus Christ? Is that what it means for you?

And BTW - "Remember: never read a Bible verse"! How condescending is that? I mean, seriously, doesn't it sound to you as though your post is saying "I/we have the key to understanding how the Bible works and what it says, and BTW you don't?"

In the interests of furthering the discussion here, can you not see that this is how a PSA stance is experienced by other Christians? "We're the real Christians, and you aren't real ones at all"? Isn't that one very practical - and divisive - way in which PSA contributes to a Christian identity?

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"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Boogie

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I see PSA as more of an attitude than a doctrine.

It seems to cast God as annoyed and deeply unhappy with the human race, rather than loving us with the deepest compassion and providing us with everything we will ever need.

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daronmedway
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Not really. PSA simply says that those two things are not mutually exclusive and that dividing them does violence to one's theology because it constitutes an attempt the censor one of the divine attributes to which scripture bears more than sufficient witness.

In this respect I'd say that PSA is more doctrinal because it engages with the more difficult texts of scripture in humility, whereas the no-wrath approach is rooted in an a priori 'sense' that God just can't be angry even though the bible says that he can be.

[ 03. July 2010, 07:56: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Yes.

Be assured no offence was intended.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Not really. PSA simply says that those two things are not mutually exclusive and that dividing them does violence to one's theology because it constitutes an attempt the censor one of the divine attributes to which scripture bears more than sufficient witness.

In this respect I'd say that PSA is more doctrinal because it engages with the more difficult texts of scripture in humility, whereas the no-wrath approach is rooted in an a priori 'sense' that God just can't be angry even though the bible says that he can be.

I don't think God can be angry with those s/he loves so deeply - but I do think s/he can be hurt by us. It is understandable to attribute anger to God, as many Biblical writers did - but I think that's putting onto God how WE would feel about situations.


[Smile]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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