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Source: (consider it) Thread: HELL: The Official SoF Phelps-watch Thread
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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I haven't tried it (I hate to add to his click count), but I know the website has been hacked a number of times. Once it redirected to something like godlovesfags.com [Smile]

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238

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dogwonderer, is freedom of speech a right you're willing to support even if parents use it to teach their children values you hate?

As you've said, it's a tricky subject, and a few posters have wondered where the line is between persecuting parents for abuse vs. persecuting them for values you despise personally.

How would you answer vegans who believe feeding meat to children is abuse? How would you answer atheists who see religious teaching by parents as brain-washing and therefore abuse? Who decides what's abuse vs. what's a parent's right to teach his children?

If we continue down that road, how long until children are removed "for their own protection" from parents who teach them facts and values contrary to whatever is current fashion at the time? Political correctness run amok. (I recommend Ray Bradbudry's short story "Usher II" in his book, The Martian Chronicles.)

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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction

My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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I was struck by this conversation between Louis Theroux and a female WBC member:

LT: What if you don't believe in the Bible?

FWBCM: <large grin on face> Then you're going to hell <giggles>.

It's the attitude, saying condemning words as if they are a joke - that is what appalled me, more than the actual things they did or said.

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Last ever sig ...

blog

Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
kentishmaid
Shipmate
# 4767

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I wondered if that was out of embarrassment, perhaps? I know they picket funerals with exactly that message, but perhaps it's slightly different saying it directly to someone's face in front of the cameras. Perhaps she was vaguely aware of how awful it sounded.

Or maybe she is just heartless, I don't know. I'd love to believe it was the former and it's just Fred's hold on them all that convinces them to continue, though.

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"Who'll be the lady, who'll be the lord, when we are ruled by the love of one another?"

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chive

Ship's nude
# 208

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One of the oddest things I found about watching the programme (which I fully expected to make me angry but it didn't, it just saddened me) was when the children were picking up the leaves before going to church. I had a momentary thought from my own church upbringing which said, 'These people can't be real Christians, they're picking up leaves on the Sabbath.'

It showed me the extent to which cultural conditioning is an enormously difficult thing to break away from.

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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost

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Paul W.

Shipmate
# 1450

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I only just watched this, couldn't find a download of it earlier (I'm still a BBC licence payer, so it seems fair that I can do that if I've paid for it already).

I've read a fair bit about the church in the past, but it was something else seeing them like that. Quite scary really, their beliefs seem to have passed down the generations pretty well. I'd be suprised if it all fell apart after Fred dies, it looks like the younger ones are more than capable and willing of carrying it on. But we can live in hope.

I'm actually amazed that no-one's done anything worse than throw drinks at them by now. Pissing off a bunch of grieving trained killers like that would normally be a sure way of winning yourself a Darwin Award.

Paul W

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"It's just a ride" - Bill Hicks

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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Dear KenWritez,

I italicise your quotes:

dogwonderer, is freedom of speech a right you're willing to support even if parents use it to teach their children values you hate?

Yes. I believe very strongly in freedom of speech, and support it (albeit less than ‘willingly’) even if parents use it to teach their children values I disagree with or despise (‘hate’ is too emotive a word here). However, I do not support freedom of speech when it is used/misused/abused in such a way as to cause harm- especially to innocents like small children.

How would you answer vegans who believe feeding meat to children is abuse?

I’d say it is only an abuse of our children to enforce such a lifestyle choice upon them if it causes them harm. AFAIK, ‘good’ veganism is harmless, so I would not presume to judge such parents.

How would you answer atheists who see religious teaching by parents as brain-washing and therefore abuse?

I have made my thoughts on this very clear in a previous thread in Purg. I would agree with the atheist that, by the same criteria as with veganism, it is abuse if it causes harm to the child. Not if it doesn’t.

Who decides what's abuse vs. what's a parent's right to teach his children?

A massive question, with no easy answer. In extremis, society decides what’s abuse (whatever society is), not the parents, however counter-intuitive this may seem.

If we continue down that road, how long until children are removed "for their own protection" from parents who teach them facts and values contrary to whatever is current fashion at the time? Political correctness run amok. (I recommend Ray
Bradbudry's short story "Usher II" in his book, The Martian Chronicles.)


Thanks for the book recommendation- I will look it up, since this subject fascinates me.

(Takes a deep breath). I have faith in society, despite its culture. Many people don’t, but I am an optimist by nature, and I feel that humans have a certain goodness about them which underwrites my faith in society. Hence, I do not believe that there is a real risk today (or in future) of children being removed from their parents who bring them up in an ‘unfashionable’ way.

The human ‘goodness’ I refer to is largely what qualifies us to make value judgements about when parents are abusing their children, even when this abuse is unintentional. Deliberate abuse, of course, is another matter. You don’t need goodness to appreciate that- just common sense.

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این نیز بگذرد

Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
I was struck by this conversation between Louis Theroux and a female WBC member:

LT: What if you don't believe in the Bible?

FWBCM: <large grin on face> Then you're going to hell <giggles>.

It's the attitude, saying condemning words as if they are a joke - that is what appalled me, more than the actual things they did or said.

That was defensive giggling. She's there with three blokes (presenter, cameraman, soundman) getting these (to her) mildly suggestive questions which she perhaps can't honestly answer.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Revolutionist
Shipmate
# 4578

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quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
I was struck by this conversation between Louis Theroux and a female WBC member:

LT: What if you don't believe in the Bible?

FWBCM: <large grin on face> Then you're going to hell <giggles>.

It's the attitude, saying condemning words as if they are a joke - that is what appalled me, more than the actual things they did or said.

That was the moment I found most disturbing. This perverted distortion of Christianity really makes me angry, though mixed with a kind of pity, especially for the younger generation caught up in it all.

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
That was defensive giggling. She's there with three blokes (presenter, cameraman, soundman) getting these (to her) mildly suggestive questions which she perhaps can't honestly answer.

That's what I thought, but when Louis asked her later about why she laughed about it, she said that the thought of God reigning down his righteous judgement on the ungodly made her happy. I find that lack of love and compassion absolutely chilling.
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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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She'd had time to think about it by then. The initial reaction of giggling was involuntary, and the body language was unmistakable: she was embarassed.

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این نیز بگذرد

Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

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Actually, that exchange with the young woman who kept giggling reminded me of my best friend. Her dad used to hit her if she cried, because if she'd been sufficiently "grateful" for the life he was giving her, she would never see any reason to cry. Therefore, she developed this really eerie habit. She'd start laughing when she got upset, and the more upset she became, the more hysterical the laughter was. Miss Phelps REALLY reminded me of that. I wonder if there was a lot of pressure there, particularly since one of their slogans is "Fags die; God laughs". "No, you can't get upset that people are going to hell. You have to be happy about it. BE HAPPY, or you'll join them!"

I can see it. I really can. I think everyone is terrified of Fred. Really, really scared of him. Particularly as he seems to have the power, in their eyes, to decide who's hellbound and who isn't.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383

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I tend to laugh and make jokes when upset or embarassed, and I think other people do to.
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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
...if it causes them harm. ..

Who do you think gets to decide what causes harm?

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
...if it causes them harm. ..

Who do you think gets to decide what causes harm?
Like I said,
quote:
A massive question, with no easy answer. In extremis, society decides what’s abuse (whatever society is), not the parents, however counter-intuitive this may seem.



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این نیز بگذرد

Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I think everyone is terrified of Fred. Really, really scared of him.

Both the website that Chukovsky linked to and the accounts I've seen by Louis Theroux put forward the idea that Fred Phelps wasn't actively anti-gay in the 60s and 70s when his children were young but was very very aggressive and angry person. The website describes him as wife-beater and child-beater. The theory seems to be that when he could no longer get away with physical attacks on his children - the older sons left and the older daughters stood up to him - he turned his aggression and hatred outwards.

I've no idea. You can make a TV documentary say more or less anything with editing. As it was presented to us in the film, the older daughters don't seem to be particular cowed by him. If anythign the other way round - he looks physically frail and as if his life was being scheduled and controlled by the family.

Also if it is true (as alleged in that website) that he stopped beating hsi wife and his children after his daughter Margie stood up to him with a carving knife in her hand when he hit her mother, (& thus presumably saved her own chuildren from him) that occured before the God Hates Fags campaigning started. And Margie and Shirley seem to have about twenty kids between them, some of them full-grown. As well as sharing a succesful law practice and a couple of buses.

Who's really in charge in that compound? I guess we can't ever know. Maybe they don't really know themselves. All very odd.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:

<snip>

Who's really in charge in that compound? I guess we can't ever know. Maybe they don't really know themselves. All very odd.

I think that's an important point. Phelps and the entire WBC are pretty much the same as a few unloved and mostly no longer on board shipmates. They are trolls. Trolls IRL though, not of the net (although they take up a fair bit of bandwidth too).

I think there is something to be said for treating them as someone else's irritating small dog. When it shits on the sidewalk, discipline it, and clean up after it, but otherwise ignore the pesky thing.

No reaction is no satisfaction. Do not feed the troll.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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PhilA

shipocaster
# 8792

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
No reaction is no satisfaction. Do not feed the troll.

I disagree. Whilst this attitude may work on an enclosed space such as a web based community, I do not think it works in the real world. There are two many differences for a start.

If we take the Ship as an example, it is closed to membership. People have to actively choose to read the POVs on this site. With a public demonstration on a street corner, this is not true.

Secondly, free speech does not truly exist on a private, paid for space such as the Ship. By the good will and grace of the people who pay for and run this place, we can say pretty much what we want, but the rules can be changed, undemocratically, or the whole place pulled at any point in time. In real life, this is not true. Phelps can say what he wants to whom he wants and where he wants.

With these two differences in mind, I think it is important to counter views we see as bad. If we do not use the right to free speech but let other people speak out against us then there is no point in having that right at all.

It is important to challenge views like WBC so that there evil doesn't spread any further. We won't change their minds, but we can hopefully stop others from being influenced by them.

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To err is human. To arr takes a pirate.

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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Excellent! Well said!

quote:
It is important to challenge views like WBC so that there evil doesn't spread any further. We won't change their minds, but we can hopefully stop others from being influenced by them.

Do you suppose it is especially important for other Christians to be seen to make a stand on this? More so than atheists, for example?

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این نیز بگذرد

Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
chukovsky

Ship's toddler
# 116

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I would say yes, in as much as we as Christians have a responsibility to witness to true Christian faith (i.e. not what the WBC is preaching).

However I'm not convinced this includes "shouting louder" (I'm not saying anyone here has advocated that). I really feel that the members of the Phelps family need love, desperately.

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This space left intentionally blank. Do not write on both sides of the paper at once.

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Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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"Shouting louder" is exactly what they want. Phred and the gang thrive on that sort of adversity.

If I hear of their being around, I'll be standing nearby, not engaging them, in my church lady clothes, with a big "God is Love" sign.

People like Phred and Shirley (who seems to be the usual mouthpiece these days) hate it when you don't play to their script [Snigger] .

Charlotte

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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383

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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
...if it causes them harm. ..

Who do you think gets to decide what causes harm?
If you didn't see the documentary in question the children, some as young as six or seven, were brought on protests carrying signs with slogans such as "God hates fags", "Fags die, God laughs" etc. At one point Theroux asked one of the little girls what a 'fag' was (she didn't know). I think 99.99% of the population would agree that this causes harm, wouldn't you? To say it doesn't is to argue for some sort of bizarre moral relativism where individual parents have the 'right' to expose their child to literally anything.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
PhilA

shipocaster
# 8792

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quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
Do you suppose it is especially important for other Christians to be seen to make a stand on this? More so than atheists, for example?

I think that with a case like WBC, it has gone beyond the idea of one church speaking out to distance themselves from another church and more about human beings speaking out against inhuman attitudes.

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To err is human. To arr takes a pirate.

Posts: 3121 | From: Sofa | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Shadowhund
Shipmate
# 9175

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quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
Excellent! Well said!

quote:
It is important to challenge views like WBC so that there evil doesn't spread any further. We won't change their minds, but we can hopefully stop others from being influenced by them.

Do you suppose it is especially important for other Christians to be seen to make a stand on this? More so than atheists, for example?
Not in the slightest. It is far more important for Christians to speak truth to power than to expend lots of energy denouncing side-show freaks that have never amounted to much and never will.

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"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"

A.N. Wilson

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
In extremis, society decides what’s abuse (whatever society is), not the parents, however counter-intuitive this may seem.

Indeed, you are wronger than wrong.

It is God who decides.

It is the parents who are entrusted by God to raise their children. Parents answer to God for their actions, not to society.

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
...I think 99.99% of the population would agree that this causes harm, wouldn't you?...

My opinion, and yours, are irrelevant. This is an issue between the parents and God.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452

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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
In extremis, society decides what’s abuse (whatever society is), not the parents, however counter-intuitive this may seem.

Indeed, you are wronger than wrong.

It is God who decides.

It is the parents who are entrusted by God to raise their children. Parents answer to God for their actions, not to society.

So if I see a parent physically abusing a child, then I shouldn't interfere because God gave that child to that parent?

There is a place for society to say, "That's abuse." Physical abuse, definitely. And I think that there is a place for society to say there can be mental abuse of children.

Whether or not this rises to that level, I don't know. But to say that abuse is between God and the parents and not society is just wrong.

There comes a time for people to say, "Stop. We won't let you hurt that child any longer."

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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)

Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
...There is a place for society to say, "That's abuse." Physical abuse, definitely. And I think that there is a place for society to say there can be mental abuse of children.

Whether or not this rises to that level, I don't know. But to say that abuse is between God and the parents and not society is just wrong.

There comes a time for people to say, "Stop. We won't let you hurt that child any longer."

As soon as "you" decide for some other parents, you must allow that someone else will decide for you. So, whatever the state decides is OK with you?

You admit you "don't know", and thus, how can you decide, even for your own kids, nonetheless for someone else's?

I am not so willing to allow the state (or anyone else) to pass judgement on me as you are.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cusanus

Ship's Schoolmaster
# 692

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I note that sharkshooter does not include PataLeBon's first paragraph in his quote of her post - presumably so that people might be less likely to see that he's posting crap. Didn't work. Why don't you answer her question, instead of posting nonsense about 'the state'?

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"You are qualified," sa fotherington-tomas, "becos you can frankly never pass an exam and have 0 branes. Obviously you will be a skoolmaster - there is no other choice."

Posts: 3120 | From: The Peninsula | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Paul W.

Shipmate
# 1450

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Apologies for dragging the topic back to Fred, but WTF? -

quote:
Phelps wrote Saddam Hussein in 1998, opposing U.S.-led sanctions against Iraq and offering to visit Baghdad. Saddam accepted the offer but must have been perplexed when the Phelps clan showed up in the streets of Baghdad with placards denouncing anal sex.
From this article, towards the bottom.

I must have missed this one the first time around. Did they really go to Iraq? That's truly bizarre, I'd have thought they'd be totally opposed to a Muslim state, even a nominal one.

The last quote on this page is supposed to be from the letter he sent. It really does seem that the doctrine of "God hates fags" comes over and above everything else.

Paul W

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"It's just a ride" - Bill Hicks

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Posts: 2835 | From: Leeds, UK | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
PhilA

shipocaster
# 8792

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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
As soon as "you" decide for some other parents, you must allow that someone else will decide for you. So, whatever the state decides is OK with you?

Of course it is. I live in this country. There is a social contract between me as a citizen to obey the law of the land and the government to provide certain services and keep me safe. I am perfectly happy for one of those laws to include abusing children. Personally, I think that people who do abuse children should be removed from society and those children to be kept safe. As I don't see God raining down bolts of lightening on child abusers, and I do see God putting governments and powers on this earth, then I submit to those in charge. I do have the right and the power to change the people in charge though. Its called 'democracy'.
quote:

You admit you "don't know", and thus, how can you decide, even for your own kids, nonetheless for someone else's?

I know I am answering a question directed at someone else here, but why should each and every citizen know each and every thing that should and shouldn't be allowed? This is why law makers employ experts and read up on subjects before stating what should and shouldn't be allowed. I don't know all the ins and outs of child abuse, or all the 'back doors' people will try and get through to get away with things - I am not an expert.

I do know however that I don't abuse my children. I know this because my children are happy and they love me and they come to me when they are in need - we have a good relationship. I cannot say the same for all the children I know, but it is not up to me and I am not expert enough on the subject of parenting to be able to tell other people how to raise their kids. I do not want that power or that ability.
quote:

I am not so willing to allow the state (or anyone else) to pass judgement on me as you are.

Then perhaps you need to seriously consider moving to an area of the world that no one else governs. For laws to work they have to be universal, with no one above the law. I don't care if you agree with a specific law or not, there are many in the UK I don't agree with, but this does not mean that I can freely break those laws at will and claim some sort of moral superiority because I am not allowing someone to pass judgement on me - get real! If everyone lived the way this sentence of your post suggested, there would be nothing but anarchy.

"Yes I know I drove at 90 mph in a 30 zone, but I am not willing for you to pass judgement on me, officer, and will not be accompanying you to the station."

Or even worse "Yes I know I got a little carried away when I punished little Johnny and his arm broke, but this is not abuse because I don't define that as abuse and I don't care what the law says."

What kind of society would allow this attitude to remain within it?

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To err is human. To arr takes a pirate.

Posts: 3121 | From: Sofa | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Yerevan
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# 10383

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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
In extremis, society decides what’s abuse (whatever society is), not the parents, however counter-intuitive this may seem.

Indeed, you are wronger than wrong.

It is God who decides.

It is the parents who are entrusted by God to raise their children. Parents answer to God for their actions, not to society.

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
...I think 99.99% of the population would agree that this causes harm, wouldn't you?...

My opinion, and yours, are irrelevant. This is an issue between the parents and God.

Please, please in the name of the little baby Jesus tell me you're not serious. God might be the ultimate source of morality, but it isn't as if any individual parent has an infallible hotline to the Almighty that means they'll never get it wrong. You know as well as I do that individuals can do morally reprehensible things because they think the voice in their head they call "God" has told them to. Its generally accepted in western society that while parents have the right to bring up their children according to their own values, that right is circumscribed by the (democratic) law of the land in extreme cases ie sexual, emotional and physical abuse. Obviously there are lots of complex ethical questions around where you draw the line (and no I don't think the Phelps children should be whisked off into care), but are you seriously arguing that individual parents should have the right to do WHATEVER they want to their children, providing they think "God" is ok with it? (I'm thinking here of cases such as parents vetoing life-saving medical aid, or beating their children because they think the OT advocates harsh corporal punishment, or female circumcision etc)

And while you're at it, do you think sending young children out to picket with "God hates fags" signs is a good idea?

Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
PataLeBon
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# 5452

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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
...There is a place for society to say, "That's abuse." Physical abuse, definitely. And I think that there is a place for society to say there can be mental abuse of children.

Whether or not this rises to that level, I don't know. But to say that abuse is between God and the parents and not society is just wrong.

There comes a time for people to say, "Stop. We won't let you hurt that child any longer."

As soon as "you" decide for some other parents, you must allow that someone else will decide for you. So, whatever the state decides is OK with you?

You admit you "don't know", and thus, how can you decide, even for your own kids, nonetheless for someone else's?

I am not so willing to allow the state (or anyone else) to pass judgement on me as you are.

I do think that if a parent's deliberate actions put a child in a hospital, and I will include for their mental state in that, then that is abuse and the state should act.

Considering that I live in a (well, supposedly) democratic nation, then the state is one that shows the common values of all of us.

What you seem to be saying is if a parent decides that it's ok to kill their child, then that's between them and God. If they decide to lock a child in a closet or put them in a cage "for their own good", then that's between them and God. You seem to see no reason to interfere, whereas I very much see God telling me TO interfere because someone is hurting His children.

Realize, I don't see a reason to interfere if a child is being raised to be a Nazi, a racist, or even to follow Phelps. That is a religious choice and protected by my own society's laws.

If Phelps own actions are causing mental and or physical harm to his children, then the state needs to consider what to do. Apparently, to this point they have decided that it's not a problem how he raises his own children.

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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)

Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

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I've got no doubt that when God meets up with these abusive parents, he'll be seriously pissed off and have a lot to say about it. However, by acting in this life, we can stop more shit happening to the kids, and I would say we are accountable to both God and the kids if we don't do something - being Christ's eyes and hands and all that in this day and age. Sure, God can start throwing lightning bolts around if he wants, but I'm not seeing that happen.

I'm just thinking that the kids I work with, many of whom have been abused, would be unbelievably unimpressed by the idea that the abuse is merely between the abusers and God.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
sharkshooter

Not your average shark
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quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
...
Considering that I live in a (well, supposedly) democratic nation, then the state is one that shows the common values of all of us.

...

I am actually saying none of the things you suggest. The issue here is abuse that is not universally considered to be abuse, such as teaching a particular way of life or belief system. If you want to discuss physical harm or the Nazis, let's keep that separate in order to enable discussion.

You are fortunate that you live in a nation with values similar to yours. What would happen if you that changed? Would you be so content in any country in the world?

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Big Steve

Ship's Navigator
# 3274

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quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:

LT: What if you don't believe in the Bible?

FWBCM: <large grin on face>

I've just caught the show and I was very struck by Louis' conversation with one of Fred's grand-daughters. Her nervous laughter seemed like flirting to me. Did anyone else think that? She was enjoying the attention and covered up her blushes by reverting to "official" church answers.


The poor girls, if they ever get out of the church they will have a lot of hell-raising to get through before they reach equilibrium.

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http://www.youtube.com/stephenhillmusic

Posts: 1269 | From: Dublin. | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
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You could well be right. Wow, those women are going to have some squashed-down sexuality there. God only knows how they cope when they find someone actually attractive.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
altarbird
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As a serious question, is the only difference between the Phelps clan and those on here who rail against homosexuality as un-Christian a matter of degree?

And if so, then why aren't these people cracked down on for the damage they do to their kids quite as much?

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It's not whether God is on our side or whether we're doing God's will, it's being so narcissistic as to think that God is telling you what to do. - Lily Tomlin

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PataLeBon
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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
...
Considering that I live in a (well, supposedly) democratic nation, then the state is one that shows the common values of all of us.

...

I am actually saying none of the things you suggest. The issue here is abuse that is not universally considered to be abuse, such as teaching a particular way of life or belief system. If you want to discuss physical harm or the Nazis, let's keep that separate in order to enable discussion.

You are fortunate that you live in a nation with values similar to yours. What would happen if you that changed? Would you be so content in any country in the world?

Interesting that being a Nazi isn't a particular way of life or belief system...

However, the topic of discussion is Phelps, who happens to live in the US of A. Therefore whether or not his children would or would not be taken away is part of the American system and not, say, Saudi Arabia's.

And when one makes sweeping statements, especially in Hell, one should be called on them. You at no point have dealt with the fact that your own viewpoint allows parents to abuse children in ways that an overwhelming majority of people would find abhorrent. If you wanted to separate Phelps's teaching as abuse from a parent who decided to punish a child by beating them almost to death, then you need/needed to say so.

As to whether or not I would be content anywhere else, I don't have a clue and don't even want to speculate. I have found simply by moving between states here that even in the same country things can be quite different from place to place. (Heck things are quite different from where I live and where I work!).

And mindless speculation, without facts, just isn't something I do.

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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)

Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
... You at no point have dealt with the fact that your own viewpoint allows parents to abuse children in ways that an overwhelming majority of people would find abhorrent. If you wanted to separate Phelps's teaching as abuse from a parent who decided to punish a child by beating them almost to death, then you need/needed to say so.

I just did.

quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
As to whether or not I would be content anywhere else, I don't have a clue and don't even want to speculate. I have found simply by moving between states here that even in the same country things can be quite different from place to place. (Heck things are quite different from where I live and where I work!).

And mindless speculation, without facts, just isn't something I do.

So, you don't want to speculate, but you want me to.

I guess we are done.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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SS - let me get this clear.

Suppose a parent tied their child to a chair and flogged them with a cat of nine tails such that their skin was removed and their bones exposed as a "punishment", you don't believe the state should intervene?

My God.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
SS - let me get this clear.

Suppose a parent tied their child to a chair and flogged them with a cat of nine tails such that their skin was removed and their bones exposed as a "punishment", you don't believe the state should intervene?

My God.

(Different SS chiming in)

So long as it is done in "Christian love", you can thrash your child. If anyone of another faith or no faith at all does so, why, they are unable to use God's law to justify their action, so they should be subject to secular law.

Back to sharkshooter. I think your outlook is excessively, if not entirely legalistic. All the justification is from scripture and particularly the very letter of the Law. Justifying by observing the letter of the Law is not what Christianity (well, mine anyway) is about. There seems to be no room for the Holy Spirit in your views, let alone those of Phelps.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
It is the parents who are entrusted by God to raise their children. Parents answer to God for their actions, not to society.

Children are also citizens. Are they not entitled to the benefits and protections of citizenship? Therefore, does the state not have a responsibility to ensure all children enjoy those benefits and protections? In Canada, at least, those rights include not just life, liberty and security of the person, but freedom of expression, freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, freedom of thought, freedom of belief, freedom of peaceful assembly, and freedom of association, subject to reasonable limits. sharkshooter, the parenting you are describing sounds just like the divine right of kings. OliviaG

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
HenryT

Canadian Anglican
# 3722

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quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
And I think that there is a place for society to say there can be mental abuse of children.

What if, for example, I decided to (living in Canada where we drive on the left) teach a child that cars drive on the right? Or that the words "red" and "green" had interchanged meanings from the standard; and that they should cross on the "green" signal?

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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788

Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
KenWritez
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Removing children from families which teach unpopular ideas is a bad, bad slippery slope.

That Fred Phelps is any manner of twisted, I agree. That what he teaches is abhorrent and equally twisted, I agree. But he still has, in the US, the right to teach those abhorrent beliefs to his kids, regardless of how unpopular or toxic they may be.

What happens when/if Christianity becomes unpopular and abhorrent? "Mr. and Mrs. Parent, the State Child Welfare Board has determined you to be actively engaged in promoting civil unrest, hostility toward marginalzed groups, and establishing false and harmful belief systems in your children. Therefore, we are hereby removing them from your care pending judicial review of your case."

In essence, anyone arguing the State ought to remove the Phelps kids from their family is arguing the State ought to be the final determiner of what a parent is allowed to teach his or her children, that the State knows better than the parent. The State's law enforcement policy makers are bureaucrats and elected officials; are these really the people you want in charge of your home?

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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction

My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com

Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
sharkshooter

Not your average shark
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To clarify my position only...

The discussion started by dealing specifically with non-physical issues, and that is what I was adressing. Please do not construe my comments beyond that scope.

I hope for your sakes that you continue to live in a regime with values similar to our own, because I can forsee problems if, as KenW said, your governments all of a sudden decided your beliefs were "abusive".

Olivia, freedom of religion also allows me to teach my children my beliefs, as it allows you and everyone else to do so. That freedom must be applied universally or it doesn't exist.

If you want to discuss about rights of children, I will only do so in purgatory.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
PataLeBon
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# 5452

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quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
And I think that there is a place for society to say there can be mental abuse of children.

What if, for example, I decided to (living in Canada where we drive on the left) teach a child that cars drive on the right? Or that the words "red" and "green" had interchanged meanings from the standard; and that they should cross on the "green" signal?
I think that you can certainly teach your children that, if it means that much to you.

Heck, you could home school your children and go picket city hall to change the traffic lights every day if you wish with your children.

Of course when your children blame your teaching for causing their wreck, then you will have to deal with what you have taught your children.

What I am calling mental abuse are things such as locking children up in cages so that they will be easier to deal with.

I believe that you can teach your children whatever belief system you wish, even one you make up as you go along. Whether or not the teaching is for good or ill will be in the hands of history.

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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)

Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
And I think that there is a place for society to say there can be mental abuse of children.

What if, for example, I decided to (living in Canada where we drive on the left) teach a child that cars drive on the right? Or that the words "red" and "green" had interchanged meanings from the standard; and that they should cross on the "green" signal?
Since when do cars drive on the left in Canada? I've driven in British Columbia any number of times and always on the right side of the road. Have things changed that much in the four or so years since I've been up there?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
John Spears
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# 11694

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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
Well, I happen to think it is abuse of innocent children to involve them with such despicable fundamentalist bigotry- especially if it exposes them to third-party harm.

I happen to think it is abuse of innocent children (or not-so-innocent adults) to fail to teach them about hell - because it condemns them to everlasting harm.

However, the law in most countries does not agree with either point of view.

Nothing you do condemns them to everlasting harm - its your God that does that.
Posts: 140 | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

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It would appear that the law is finally beginning to catch up with Phred and Co

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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Huzzah! [Big Grin]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

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# 2210

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I hope (in Christian Love™, of course) that this opens the floodgates and the mean old bastard goes bankrupt

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged



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