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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Hell - an embarrassment to many Christians these days?
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Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
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Posted
It seems like the doctrine of hell, which was always mainstream Christian teaching, is a bit of an embassassment now to many denominations or strands of Christianity :
The C of E 's Doctrine Commission said in 1995 (The Mystery of Salvation) : "Christians have professed appalling theologies which made God into a sadistic monster. ... Hell is not eternal torment, but it is the final and irrevocable choosing of that which is opposed to God so completely and so absolutely that the only end is total non-being."
The Catholic catechism says it is separation from God, whereas an older version mentioned "dreadful torments".
NT Wright, who is a literalist about the resurrection of Jesus and the resurrection of the body and the second coming etc, for some reason goes all metaphorical when it comes to hell and says that it just means in the final scheme of things there will be some people who, because of their rejection of God end up less than fully human in some way, a theory which seems somewhat extractus ex anum. wright on hell
I know there is some debate over language used in some parts of the NT as to whether it means anihilation or eternal torment, but the latter often seems to be the on-the-face-of-it meaning, and it is what most Catholic theologians traditionally taught - that you go there after death in your soul, and then, after the laast judgment, you are reunited with an eternal body in which you will suffer all the more.
Do you have any good answers to problem it poses for the idea of a loving God? [is anyone so irredeemably evil as to deserve it?] And if it doesn't really exist, of it just means anihilation, then what was Jesus meant to be saving us from [just from death being the end? or from an unfulfilling existence as some kind of ghost?] and why then did he refer to it with phrases like: "47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" or say in Matthew the "goats" would go to "eternal punishment"?
It's curious to wonder too, I think, where the idea came from, as the early Jewish Sheol was not a hell in the sense of a place of torment. Perhaps it was the Hellenistic influence, the idea of punishments in Tartarus (the nastier bit of Hades), and that what with various persecutions etc, some of the early Christians quite liked the idea of their enemies ending up in such a place.. (some of Tertullian's thoughts on it particularly come to mind).
Is there a way to be intellectually honest about the meaning and function of hell in Christian doctrine, and also not think it's outrageous?
[ 12. January 2011, 21:19: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posts: 1019 | From: Nice, France | Registered: Jul 2009
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Orlando098:
Is there a way to be intellectually honest about the meaning and function of hell in Christian doctrine, and also not think it's outrageous?
But it is outrageous, isn't it?
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
Outrageous - perhaps - to me it's just silly.
For those seeking to recruit believers I suspect it's generally held that to talk of hell is to be "off-message". Lots of carrot and no stick is the way to get bums on seats?
Perhaps they've got it wrong - hell didn't seem to worry my mother - she once (I in my mid-teens, she in her 40s) told me that she was quite looking forward to being dead as she'd be sitting in heaven looking down at all those who'd hurt her as they were tormented eternally in hell. Presumably she was certain that her god would agree with her evaluation of the rest of humanity.
Not a statement that made me reconsider my rejection of her beliefs - but I think when she died (aged 80+) she still believed we'll meet again in heaven - albeit I'll be aged eight and wearing short trousers!
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
This thread comes near to one that I had been thinking about starting on the topic of what accounts for the growing tendency toward universalist views amongst mainline Christians. I'm making an assumption that this is, in fact, a growing trend, based on the perhaps quite unrepresentative sample of views I've seen expressed here on the Ship. Without wishing to hijack this thread, might we possibly also be able to discuss this related matter here?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
Short answer. Many, varied and contradictory beliefs depicted in the bible about what happens after death. Church that was long ago co-opted by empire adopts "God as the great, torturing Emperor whose entire rationale is to keep the peasants in line" contra most biblical and faith based evidence.
"Hell" as properly understood is not about God and is everything to do with the entrenched powers trying to keep civic order.
It is not so much an embarrassment as an abomination and a sin against God.
One hopes that there is a purgatory so that those preaching hell can suffer the agony that they put others through on earth as a learning exercise.
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
I think I posted somewhere else that if you link either predestination or free will to a doctrine of eternal damnation, God seems awfully mean.
Eternal damnation for what are ultimately temporal sins seems to be in open defiance of the more helpful read of "eye for an eye."
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
My view of hell is similar to a view expressed by some Orthodox Christians. Hell and Heaven are not distinct physical places, but states of being. Someone who stubbornly refuses to love God and love their neighbour will find the love of God stinging and offensive, while someone full of love will find divine charity to be eternal bliss.
I suppose the question is whether or not there comes a point when the reprobate will give up and repent and be saved. However that of course assumes that heaven and hell are temporal states.
C.S. Lewis puts it simply, that after death, the saved will sing to God "Thy will be done" whereas God will say to the damned "Thy will be done." As in, one who wholly rejects God will receive exactly what he or she wants.
I confess however that I hope that universalism is true, that all will be saved. Whether or not that is the case is something that only God can decide. God doesn't give up on me, so I hope He doesn't give up on anyone.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Orlando098:
Do you have any good answers to problem it poses for the idea of a loving God?
I can offer an answer from outside of mainstream Christianity that works for me, but you'll have to decide how good an answer it seems to be to you.
My understanding of hell is that it is a place provided by God out of love for people who absolutely insist on rejecting him. I believe that God will use every trick and allow any excuse to get us to accept heaven, but that even in hell, God manages to find a way to give to people who choose it what little delight and happiness they are willing to receive, as long as they don't realize that it comes from God.
Any punishment and torment attributed to God are actually just the straightforward consequences of such people voluntarily putting themselves outside the reach of God's grace and blessing. After all, if God were to draw near enough to them to ease their suffering, he would actually cause them greater suffering by subjecting them to the very presence they have rejected.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I think hell is an inevitability in a universe where God has chosen to give creatures free will. Unless we're all extremely lucky (ha), some of them are bound to use that free will to refuse blessedness.
At that point God can do one of two things. He can arbitrarily snatch away their free will and FORCE them to accept blessing--in which case free will was only ever a sham anyway, and human choice and freedom has no dignity at all, being only a lie. Or God can call the refusers, woo them, beg them, even lay down his life for them--but ultimately admit he has to let them have their own way. Very painful and difficult.
I just don't see a way around it. If you leave blessedness optional, you make un-blessedness possible. If you force it on everybody, so much for free will.
Apparently God values free will very, very highly. I wonder why.
I do think the door to hell is unlocked--or if locked, it's on the inside. It's worth noting that Scripture describes hell as a place made "for the devil and his angels," not a place that was ever intended for humankind at all. Paradise was made for people, not hell.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think hell is an inevitability in a universe where God has chosen to give creatures free will. Unless we're all extremely lucky (ha), some of them are bound to use that free will to refuse blessedness.
At that point God can do one of two things. He can arbitrarily snatch away their free will and FORCE them to accept blessing--in which case free will was only ever a sham anyway, and human choice and freedom has no dignity at all, being only a lie. Or God can call the refusers, woo them, beg them, even lay down his life for them--but ultimately admit he has to let them have their own way. Very painful and difficult.
I just don't see a way around it. If you leave blessedness optional, you make un-blessedness possible. If you force it on everybody, so much for free will.
Apparently God values free will very, very highly. I wonder why.
I do think the door to hell is unlocked--or if locked, it's on the inside. It's worth noting that Scripture describes hell as a place made "for the devil and his angels," not a place that was ever intended for humankind at all. Paradise was made for people, not hell.
+1 there. Universalist "theology" is an inconsistent heresy.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
I have an orthodox Christian view of heaven and hell. Although it is a difficult doctrine (hell that is), in these post modern days.
Ian Mc Cormack tells a story of his near death experience and descent into what appears to be hell.
If you have the time watch the You Tube clip and make your own mind up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MLkdSv-KaQ
Saul the Apostle
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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Nooj
Apprentice
# 15637
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Posted
quote:
extractus ex anum
Might as well as put my Classical education to good use - extractus ex ano.
Posts: 38 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: May 2010
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Universalist "theology" is an inconsistent heresy.
I can only assume that you regard non-universalist theology as consistent heresy then, burger boy.
[ 23. August 2010, 06:21: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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pjkirk
Shipmate
# 10997
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nooj:
quote:
extractus ex anum
Might as well as put my Classical education to good use - extractus ex ano.
Impressive first post ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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Dear God, I would like to file a bug report -- Randall Munroe (http://xkcd.com/258/)
Posts: 1177 | From: Swinging on a hammock, chatting with Bokonon | Registered: Feb 2006
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Nooj
Apprentice
# 15637
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Posted
Cheers pjkirk.
The horrible thing about learning dead languages is that the only time you can use it, you come off looking like a haughty taughty elitist. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 38 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: May 2010
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Eternal damnation for what are ultimately temporal sins seems to be in open defiance of the more helpful read of "eye for an eye."
This is a bit of a tangent but I've always assumed that eternal damnation was for eternal sins - i.e. that people keep sinning in hell. In fact that is kind of the point, isn't it? Those who choose to be shut out from God's presence forever will get their wish and experience the consequences of their choice.
Indeed your premise seems to be a medieval view of sins - i.e. a list of naughty things that we do. Instead Jesus (e.g. in Mark 7) thought that these actions were merely an outworking of our hearts. Sin is a not a temporary action but a potentially eternal state of being?
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Perfect Elsie.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Eternal damnation for what are ultimately temporal sins seems to be in open defiance of the more helpful read of "eye for an eye."
This is a bit of a tangent but I've always assumed that eternal damnation was for eternal sins - i.e. that people keep sinning in hell. In fact that is kind of the point, isn't it? Those who choose to be shut out from God's presence forever will get their wish and experience the consequences of their choice.
Indeed your premise seems to be a medieval view of sins - i.e. a list of naughty things that we do. Instead Jesus (e.g. in Mark 7) thought that these actions were merely an outworking of our hearts. Sin is a not a temporary action but a potentially eternal state of being?
This is likely a tangent, too, but why do we still sin while we are earth-bound yet believe in Christ and try to repent? Yeah, yeah, free will and all. I unfortunately sometimes will to sin even now. You say that those who go to Hell continue to will it- eternally. But does that mean we lose free-will in Heaven? If God's will is the only will he wants for us, and we say we want it, too, but don't manage to follow it here, why are we only healed of our hard hearts in Heaven?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Yes - the idea of a hell full of torment (not W Hyatt's kind) is a total embarrassment. It was used for control and fear.
The worst part is that it was taught to small children.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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glockenspiel
Shipmate
# 13645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Orlando098:
The C of E 's Doctrine Commission said in 1995 (The Mystery of Salvation) : "Christians have professed appalling theologies which made God into a sadistic monster. ... Hell is not eternal torment, but it is the final and irrevocable choosing of that which is opposed to God so completely and so absolutely that the only end is total non-being."
Interestingly, total non-being is, roughly speaking, buddhist heaven.
Posts: 1258 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Apr 2008
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
This is such a lot of masturbatory bollocks. I mean, really. There’s so much guff said about hell, it truly is an embarrassment to Christianity. The fact that none of you Christians can actually agree on whatever the hell hell is is bad enough- especially since many of your beliefs are directly contradictory (despite allegedly being based on the same scripture). It’s a mess.
Worse, though, is this stupid idea that anyone would actually choose by their god-cherished Free Will to go to hell. Give me a break. I’m a total write-off atheist, and if I actually had a proper choice of heaven or hell, do you think for one second I’d choose hell? Of course I wouldn’t, and nor would any other atheist. It’s not a free choice at all, because NOBODY would choose it. The idea that God offers people the choice of heaven or hell is bullshit wallpaper theology*.
Grow up, mankind. You look pathetic in that nappy.
*hastily papered over the cracks of truth (that the whole thing’s a load of codswallop).
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
This is likely a tangent, too, but why do we still sin while we are earth-bound yet believe in Christ and try to repent? Yeah, yeah, free will and all. I unfortunately sometimes will to sin even now. You say that those who go to Hell continue to will it- eternally. But does that mean we lose free-will in Heaven? If God's will is the only will he wants for us, and we say we want it, too, but don't manage to follow it here, why are we only healed of our hard hearts in Heaven?
Haven't you just answered your own question?
Hell can easily be projected from present experience. Which teaches us that while theodicy / salvation is a process that starts in this life there will need to be some might divine intervention in the future.
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Worse, though, is this stupid idea that anyone would actually choose by their god-cherished Free Will to go to hell. Give me a break. I’m a total write-off atheist, and if I actually had a proper choice of heaven or hell, do you think for one second I’d choose hell?
You have little experience of the real world then. I regularly meet people who willingly choose hell on a daily basis.
Step 1 - go to any inner-city.
Step 2 - open your eyes.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Johnny: quote:
Haven't you just answered your own question?
Uh, no, I don't think so. Unless you are saying life in heaven isn't perfect from the get-go; perhaps without a Purgatory but at least a purgatorial process to form our wills with God's. If there is no process, and all is changed in a flash, why not the flash here and now?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
VERY little experience of real life. I see people choosing mini-hells all the time, often eyes fully open, but they can't be bothered to do whatever (often very litttle) thing is needed to avoid the hell. They WILL go their own way, no matter how much the concerned friends and family around them try to hold them back. Heartbreaking.
As for why people stay in hell--have you never heard of pouting and sulking? There was many a time in my childhood where I would spend basically the whole day upstairs in my room crying rather than admit I was wrong, come down and say I was sorry. Injured pride and anger. And yet I'd created the situation myself.
Magnify that a thousand times over, and you might start to get an idea of the mindset that chooses--and keeps on choosing--hell.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
If there is no process, and all is changed in a flash, why not the flash here and now?
Sorry. I left a step out.
Because God is patient and he wants hell to be as empty as possible.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
I regularly meet people who willingly choose hell on a daily basis.
Step 1 - go to any inner-city.
Step 2 - open your eyes.
I'd be grateful if you'd explain what you mean by this statement, but only if you promise not to write total and utter bollocks.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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sanityman
Shipmate
# 11598
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Posted
The idea that "free will" exists in some sort of contextual vacuum is frankly bizarre. We are responsible for our behaviour, but also a product of our environments, upbringing and psychology. And free will isn't so precious, anyway: If someone is so stupid as to go into an unsafe building which then collapses, trapping them unconscious, no-one would suggest their free will is respected in leaving them there to die. "Free will" seems another way of saying "you made your bed, and can lie in it (eternally)."
The NT Wright quote was interesting - depersonalisation sounds very much like the Great Divorce model of hell as a diminution of self. You could say that we have been created as something less than real, and have to chose whether to become real or fade into a self-absorbed nothingness. This also fits with Johnny S's previous comment on "eternal sin" - continued rejection of God. This does pose a dilemma, though: Are the beings in Hell capable of ceasing to sin? If so, we have a semi-universalist "open prison" model of hell, where they can chose to leave and accept God's love. If not - how can this then still be considered either morally blameworthy or an exercise of free will? Like a drug addict, what may have started as free will becomes dependency - a medical condition. Can the Good Physician not heal those he claims to love?
- Chris.
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Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only the wind will listen - TS Eliot
Posts: 1453 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I'd be grateful if you'd explain what you mean by this statement, but only if you promise not to write total and utter bollocks.
That hardly seems fair when it is not a reciprocal agreement.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
You said you regularly meet people who willingly choose hell on a daily basis. I’d like you to come up with one single example of what you mean by this. If you don’t I’ll take it that you can’t, and that your statement should be dismissed as vacuous rubbish.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Y'all are asking about the existence of Hell and assuming the existence of Heaven.
Do you really think it is a binary choice? Does the God you worship have so little imagination that there are only those two places? At least the Mayas had several different heavens.
We imagine "place" only because we have no way to conceptualize what happens after death. We fear death so much that we tell ourselves fairy tales about Heaven and Hell to make it comprehensible.
Yeah, yeah, I know "We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen." This belief is central to orthodox (with a small o) Christianity. And, we don't even agree about resurrection. When does this happen? Is it immediately? Do you rot away in the ground until the second coming? Does God spiff our corpses back up to look nice when we are resurrected? Do the ashes get assembled back together a la the Terminator?
How silly do these assumptions look under the cold hard light of reason?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
There are all sorts of problems with various traditional formulations of hell. For instance, if the joy of the blessed in heaven is perfect (as it must be, or it wouldn't be heaven) then, as Augustine pointed out, the fact that there are people in hell must logically be one of the many causes of their great joy.
Speaking for myself, to rejoice that there are people crying out in pain for ever and ever and ever strikes me as so monstrously inhuman that I could never submit myself to the will of a God who required me to do it. He might as well therefore condemn me to hell too, since the cries of the damned would make a hell of heaven anyway.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
You said you regularly meet people who willingly choose hell on a daily basis. I’d like you to come up with one single example of what you mean by this.
I regularly meet people who are trapped in harmful cycles involving drugs, alcohol, gambling, relational issues ... I could go on.
Some of them (not all) have freely chosen this. The consequences of their actions have been clearly explained to them, they often just don't believe what they are told.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
You said you regularly meet people who willingly choose hell on a daily basis. I’d like you to come up with one single example of what you mean by this.
I regularly meet people who are trapped in harmful cycles involving drugs, alcohol, gambling, relational issues ... I could go on.
Some of them (not all) have freely chosen this. The consequences of their actions have been clearly explained to them, they often just don't believe what they are told.
That's not hell. Read your City of God. Hell is every square inch of your flesh burning forever without ever being consumed, with no hope whatsoever of respite. The two scenarios really don't compare/
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
I regularly meet people who are trapped in harmful cycles ...
Yeah, I had a feeling your definition of hell might look something like that. Which of the following statements fairly include descriptions of ‘hell’, in your view?
a) I drove back home from the supermarket yesterday; the traffic was hell.
b) I’m going through hell because my beloved goldfish died.
c) England played hellish bad to lose that test match.
d) I stubbed my toe this morning. It hurt like hell.
e) I haven't got any money for my next fix, and I'm withdrawing. I'll have to give a couple of blow-jobs to raise the money. Oh, hell.
f) What's that sweet-sick smell coming from those chimneys? This isn't resettlement- it's a death camp. I've arrived in hell.
g) When I said it would be thirty-six holes, my wife gave me hell.
What does any of these living human experiences have to do with a biblically described afterlife hell?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
That's not hell. Read your City of God. Hell is every square inch of your flesh burning forever without ever being consumed, with no hope whatsoever of respite. The two scenarios really don't compare.
Right. So now the only definition of hell that is even allowed to be discussed is strict Augustinian?
Strawman anyone?
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Yeah, I had a feeling your definition of hell might look something like that. Which of the following statements fairly include descriptions of ‘hell’, in your view?
a) I drove back home from the supermarket yesterday; the traffic was hell.
b) I’m going through hell because my beloved goldfish died.
c) England played hellish bad to lose that test match.
d) I stubbed my toe this morning. It hurt like hell.
e) I haven't got any money for my next fix, and I'm withdrawing. I'll have to give a couple of blow-jobs to raise the money. Oh, hell.
f) What's that sweet-sick smell coming from those chimneys? This isn't resettlement- it's a death camp. I've arrived in hell.
g) When I said it would be thirty-six holes, my wife gave me hell.
What does any of these living human experiences have to do with a biblically described afterlife hell?
Thanks for making my point Yorick. Other people's experience of life is very different to yours.
Go back to my two steps earlier. And then when you keep your end of the bargain I'll be happy to continue chatting.
For now, I'm off to bed.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
So, hell varies from Dantean torture for eternity to ending up in a ‘state of being’ removed from the Omniloving Megadaddy. In any case, you can see this in any inner-city- just look at the druggies! Oh yeah, but people choose to go there, so however bad it is, hell is a preference which people freely select rather than heaven- presumably because they ‘know’ it’s better. And they do literally know it, don’t they, because God wouldn’t let his beloved children make that fucking almightily disastrous wrong turn by mistake or misunderstanding, now, would He? But wait a minute, they’re wrong to ‘know’ it’s better than heaven, aren’t they, because you know better, don’t you, eh? Yeah, you decide what living in hell is like, and define it as people getting trapped in self-harming cycles, for example, 'relational issues').
Sweet screaming frikkin nutty bonkers dreams, Johnny.
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Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Worse, though, is this stupid idea that anyone would actually choose by their god-cherished Free Will to go to hell. Give me a break. I’m a total write-off atheist, and if I actually had a proper choice of heaven or hell, do you think for one second I’d choose hell? Of course I wouldn’t, and nor would any other atheist. It’s not a free choice at all, because NOBODY would choose it. The idea that God offers people the choice of heaven or hell is bullshit wallpaper theology*.
Sometimes I swear all the atheists on the internet are the same person. This is hardly the first time Christians have been expected to either be horrible people, or absurd ones. In this case, we are horrible if we keep the Dantesque version of hell, or absurd ones if we try to say some people don't choose God.
For myself, I can easily see people not choosing God. "Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom" after all. God involves a heck of a lot of kneeling and cross carrying and martyrdom. Our very best picture of heaven is a man nailed to a cross! If you want to latch onto something absurd, why not latch on that? I can't see anything absurd about hell. It seems a straightforward enough concept for me.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nooj
Apprentice
# 15637
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There are all sorts of problems with various traditional formulations of hell. For instance, if the joy of the blessed in heaven is perfect (as it must be, or it wouldn't be heaven) then, as Augustine pointed out, the fact that there are people in hell must logically be one of the many causes of their great joy.
Speaking for myself, to rejoice that there are people crying out in pain for ever and ever and ever strikes me as so monstrously inhuman that I could never submit myself to the will of a God who required me to do it. He might as well therefore condemn me to hell too, since the cries of the damned would make a hell of heaven anyway.
Mr Aquinas said that the blessed in Heaven rejoice at the suffering of the damned in Hell because it's the result of God's justice, and God's justice is praise-worthy.
Posts: 38 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: May 2010
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PhilA
shipocaster
# 8792
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Some of them (not all) have freely chosen this.
I doubt this very much. I doubt anyone - ever - knowing the outcome, has made a decision to live in a way that would be described as hellish.
If you knew that doing X caused intense pain and no good would come from it, or doing Y would cause great pleasure and no harm would come from it, anyone with the mental capacity to make an informed choice, and no other mental or emotional problems would choose Y.
The only way someone would choose X is if they didn't understand the choice, have some form of mental health issue or didn't know the outcome. Why would God allow people in these categories to 'choose' an eternal option they didn't fully grasp? That isn't loving, that's sick.
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To err is human. To arr takes a pirate.
Posts: 3121 | From: Sofa | Registered: Nov 2004
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
If you look at the descriptions of the Last Judgment in the Gospel of Matthew, The Parable of Sheep and Goats, Our Lord tells the lost that by refusing to live in charity with other people, they have rejected him. So it isn't about "I choose to spend eternity in burning flames of sulphur." It's about people who deliberately refuse to walk the way of love and peace. It is about those who sternly persist in hating their fellow neighbour, and by extension hating God.
People who are full of hate and resentment can't feel joy or happiness. So God simply lets them be in the hell that they created from their own resentment and bitterness. The blessed share in the joys of the Beatific Vision because they have accepted the love of God freely and by extension pour out that same love to others.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
God involves a heck of a lot of kneeling and cross carrying and martyrdom.
In this world, sure. In the next? Not so much. for a start, how exactly does one get martyred in the next life?
quote:
Our very best picture of heaven is a man nailed to a cross!
That's not a picture of heaven, in any way shape or form. A picture of redemption or salvation, perhaps, but are you really saying that heaven will consist of all the Saved nailed to crosses? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
The only hell I could imagine is W Hyatt's type, where anyone there can freely leave. A place where it is as good as possible in the circumstances.
So that my relatives could visit me there and persuade me to leave!
Maybe there are many 'staging posts' in the afterlife to 'heaven'?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
But Zach and Anglican_Brat, we were talking about people choosing hell in preference to heaven, by their free will. And even if you’re sneakily equating being loving to your neighbours and choosing God with choosing heaven (and vice versa), how can this be a matter of true choice? I can love my neighbours and live in charity with them, and yet I cannot, in all integrity, choose to believe in God (not least because of all this ridiculous hell crap). However, I can certainly elect not to fry in boiling brimstone for ever, given the free choice.
It's plain nonsense, and you're embarassing yourselves.
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Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
That's not a picture of heaven, in any way shape or form. A picture of redemption or salvation, perhaps, but are you really saying that heaven will consist of all the Saved nailed to crosses?
Assuming I am granted the dignity of at least a little literary complexity when I say "the Cross," I most certainly am. Though it all looks very different through the eyes of Faith. Without Faith, though, it is a pretty basic choice between the Cross on one hand the Life's schedules and little comforts on the other. And it is so astounding to local atheists that people don't choose the Cross! "Wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat."
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nooj:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There are all sorts of problems with various traditional formulations of hell. For instance, if the joy of the blessed in heaven is perfect (as it must be, or it wouldn't be heaven) then, as Augustine pointed out, the fact that there are people in hell must logically be one of the many causes of their great joy.
Speaking for myself, to rejoice that there are people crying out in pain for ever and ever and ever strikes me as so monstrously inhuman that I could never submit myself to the will of a God who required me to do it. He might as well therefore condemn me to hell too, since the cries of the damned would make a hell of heaven anyway.
Mr Aquinas said that the blessed in Heaven rejoice at the suffering of the damned in Hell because it's the result of God's justice, and God's justice is praise-worthy.
Well whoop-de-doo for God's justice. I'm sure Mr Aquinas will excuse me if the flag I wave is a very, very small one.
Johnny S: have you an alternative to Augustine's vision of hell? It was certainly the one I was brought up not believing in, and it seems - if you'll pardon the expression - very popular. And my more general point, really, is that I get the impression that those who joyfully consign untold billions to hell haven't really thought about it very much, and what's more would probably yell and cry at what an unjust place the world is if they burnt their hand on a stove.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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sanc
Shipmate
# 6355
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Posted
For someone he claims to be a Christian yet looks forward to the day when he can look down on hell from his lofty station in heaven and look at the wicked writhing in flames, its embarrassing indeed.
I don't feel with embarrass with the hell doctrine my Church teaches and I adhere to. Hell happens after the judgment at the end of the world as we know it. Wickedness along with the people who chose to practice it will be burned. To make way for a new world where you and I and everybody who want to live happy and godly lives can do so.
Throughout the Bible this judgment, punishment and renewal theme is emphasized. In all the scenario in the Bible the wicked doesn't get to writhe in some abandoned torture chamber or camp. They are always depicted as annihilated.
One interesting about justice in the Bible is, the wicked pays the penalty of sin immediately. He gets flogged, pay if he can afford, sold, or killed. No provision for prison where he gets to be housed for month,year or a lifetime a burden to society. I think in God's economy, there is no need for prison. You either pay or forgiven immediately. So for me, hell as eternal torment is not God's style of solving the sin problem.
Posts: 358 | From: Philippines | Registered: May 2004
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
Hell is a rubbish dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem?
I am still formulating my thoughts on this one, starting with a framework of transformative judgement / purgatory / theosis.
I don't so much struggle with the existence of Hell, but rather question who might be there.
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Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I believe that ...some people won't like the unconditional love and it will be like hell for them.
So we move from hell being eternal torment to hell being eternal unconditional love. And there are people who wouldn't like that.
Riiight.
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Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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sanc
Shipmate
# 6355
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Posted
Yorick:
What about a hell where God destroys really bad people and the junks and pollution we all make to maintain our unsustainable way of life to make way for a better world where you and I and everybody who want to live happily ever after have opportunities to do so?
In some way that sort of the equivalent of the Allied forces killing the Nazis to make Europe a livable place for peace loving people.
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I am, therefore I think.
Posts: 358 | From: Philippines | Registered: May 2004
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