Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Hell - an embarrassment to many Christians these days?
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
Why is it, Yorick, that every conception of hell besides the one you find most repugnant and easiest to denounce are instantly rejected by you as absurd?
Zach
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Yorick
 Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by sanc: What about a hell where God destroys really bad people and the junks and pollution we all make to maintain our unsustainable way of life to make way for a better world where you and I and everybody who want to live happily ever after have opportunities to do so?
Yes, I'm sure that's how it was sold to you in Sunday School. That infinitely sustainable energy will be marvellous, won't it? But enough of this silly chit chat- you should be practicing your harp, not talking to 'really bad people'.
-------------------- این نیز بگذرد
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Yorick
 Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Zach82: Why is it, Yorick, that every conception of hell besides the one you find most repugnant and easiest to denounce are instantly rejected by you as absurd?
Because they're absurd. And they're only conceptions. Oh, and they're totally fucking contradictory with all the other conceptions.
-------------------- این نیز بگذرد
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
quote: Because they're absurd. And they're only conceptions. Oh, and they're totally fucking contradictory with all the other conceptions.
You can't see how silly that is? The other ideas are absurd simply because they don't agree with the one you hate the most? Of course they are contradictory! That is why they are different definitions.
Zach
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
Maybe it would make you feel better about all this, Yorick, if I pointed out that no one on this thread has said you are going to hell, whatever that hell may be like. I, for one, believe that the ability to act with charity, loving kindess, and justice is a mark of God's Grace, and reason to hope for that soul's salvation. The truest flower of that Grace may be Faith, but I recognize that God's work is far wider than the Christian religion.
So I am most certainly not saying you or anyone else is going to hell, and I encourage you to just not worry about it. The Bible leaves Hell to the imagination, and if the Bible can leave it so vague, then Christians are at liberty to keep is as vague and inoffensive as you like.
Zach
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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HCH
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# 14313
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Posted
I think many people believe far more in Hell than in Heaven for the simple reason that it is fairly easy to find approximations of Hell in this world--hopeless, painful, seemingly without end--while approximations of Heaven are rarer. The idea is easier to grasp because it seems more familiar.
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Bullfrog.
 Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Zach82: Why is it, Yorick, that every conception of hell besides the one you find most repugnant and easiest to denounce are instantly rejected by you as absurd?
Because they're absurd. And they're only conceptions. Oh, and they're totally fucking contradictory with all the other conceptions.
And the ones you find most repugnant aren't?
-------------------- Some say that man is the root of all evil Others say God's a drunkard for pain Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Bullfrog.
 Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
More to the point, I sometimes wonder what to make of the fact that most of the references to "hell" In the NT are using a word for a particular physical place, the Valley of Hinnom.
-------------------- Some say that man is the root of all evil Others say God's a drunkard for pain Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Yorick
 Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I’ve never encountered a ‘version’ of hell I didn’t find absurd, so it’s nothing to do with repugnance. I don’t hate any one version more than any other, and I have no fear whatsoever of going to hell, so that has no bearing on it either. My opinion is simply that the whole concept of hell is daft, in all its silly versions, and, to answer the OP, it is therefore an embarassment to Christianity.
-------------------- این نیز بگذرد
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sanc
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# 6355
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by sanc: What about a hell where God destroys really bad people and the junks and pollution we all make to maintain our unsustainable way of life to make way for a better world where you and I and everybody who want to live happily ever after have opportunities to do so?
Yes, I'm sure that's how it was sold to you in Sunday School. That infinitely sustainable energy will be marvellous, won't it? But enough of this silly chit chat- you should be practicing your harp, not talking to 'really bad people'.
Let me be tenacious this time around. How can the idea of hell I've mentioned above be absurd? The communists have their utopias, Castro has his Greater Cuba and I think atheists have theirs: A religion-free world where humans solve their animosity against each other living in peace and prosperity.
-------------------- I am, therefore I think.
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Worse, though, is this stupid idea that anyone would actually choose by their god-cherished Free Will to go to hell.
Depends whether you think the person talking to you is lying or not. I've certainly had plenty of conversations with men and women who would for their own reasons, quite seriously apparently, choose the Biblical notion of hell over heaven. No doubt some were being hyperbolic, or making a point that when coming to the crunch they could not live out. But I'm not in a position to say that all of them don't know their own minds and were liars. It's more probable that some of these people actually meant what they said.
Bearing in mind that many people, believing only in annihilation, choose annihilation over life, it really doesn't seem impossble that someone might similarly choose an eternity of suffering over the alternative. Fatalism takes many forms. And to assume that no-one would seriously make the decision to have hell rather than heaven, seems to suggest that in this area of choice human beings are perfect. Which they aren't. But then I do believe in free will, which must also include the free will of a human being to make - albeit what you might consider - an impossible choice.
However, as for the OP. I'm too liberal in my beliefs to have any fixed idea of what hell might actually be. And not being an occupier of the right-hand side of God, I can't imagine how he manages the accountability process when it comes to the division of the sheep and the goats. I'll leave that to those brethren who imagine they're better qualified to make that call.
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
quote: I’ve never encountered a ‘version’ of hell I didn’t find absurd, so it’s nothing to do with repugnance. I don’t hate any one version more than any other, and I have no fear whatsoever of going to hell, so that has no bearing on it either. My opinion is simply that the whole concept of hell is daft, in all its silly versions, and, to answer the OP, it is therefore an embarassment to Christianity.
It is a very peculiar argument you have. "I find hell absurd no matter how you define it!" Since the meaning of the word makes no difference, is it the arrangement of letters in the word you hate so much then?
Zach
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Yorick
 Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Anselmina: ...it really doesn't seem impossble that someone might similarly choose an eternity of suffering over the alternative.
Maybe, if, as you say, they're quite incapable of making a sane decision about it. And so the mad, the bad and the sad go to hell.
Reminiscent of Himmler's Final Solution, isn't it?
-------------------- این نیز بگذرد
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Yorick
 Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Zach82: ...is it the arrangement of letters in the word you hate so much then?
Yes, Zach, that's it. They're all the wrong way round. If only you'd call it Lhel instead, then I wouldn't hate it.
Oh, wait, I already don't hate it.
Hmm.
Oh, never mind with the letter order then.
-------------------- این نیز بگذرد
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by leo: I believe that ...some people won't like the unconditional love and it will be like hell for them.
So we move from hell being eternal torment to hell being eternal unconditional love. And there are people who wouldn't like that.
Riiight.
Yes, there are people like that - so closed in on themselves. Love would be very threatening to their sense of autonomy.
To change the analogy - imagine heaven to be a place of beautiful music. A tone deaf person would experience a cacophany - that would be hell to them.
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by leo: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by leo: I believe that ...some people won't like the unconditional love and it will be like hell for them.
So we move from hell being eternal torment to hell being eternal unconditional love. And there are people who wouldn't like that.
Riiight.
Yes, there are people like that - so closed in on themselves. Love would be very threatening to their sense of autonomy.
To change the analogy - imagine heaven to be a place of beautiful music. A tone deaf person would experience a cacophany - that would be hell to them.
I once made a list of personalities I knew that would not enjoy heaven. I've met people in the corporate world who sure seem to value power or money over love, from how little their wives (husbands) and children see of them.
Or just think about someone who can't stand the presence of black skinned people or the Irish or people who voted for Bush or, hey, their next door neighbor. For them, either heaven is a distressful place or God lovingly created an alternative, one that any God-oriented person would find quite unattractive but one that people of very different values might prefer.
I think I believe in eternal free choice, but what I don't know is if there comes a time when one's a personality or values have set, and can't change directions.
Free will is essential because without it there is no love. You cannot make someone love you.
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Yorick
 Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by leo: Love would be very threatening to their sense of autonomy.
Well that's not Perfect Love then.
Perfect Love, as touted about by Christianity, isn't like what these people can imagine. God's love is absolute, and altogether different from our feeble human version. By very definition, it is precisely unthreatening to their sense of autonomy, because it's Perfect.
Nah, I don't buy it. If heaven is being in God's Perfect Love, there isn't anyone who would sanely and freely choose against it- by absolute definition.
-------------------- این نیز بگذرد
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Nooj
Apprentice
# 15637
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Lamb Chopped: I think hell is an inevitability in a universe where God has chosen to give creatures free will. Unless we're all extremely lucky (ha), some of them are bound to use that free will to refuse blessedness.
At that point God can do one of two things. He can arbitrarily snatch away their free will and FORCE them to accept blessing--in which case free will was only ever a sham anyway, and human choice and freedom has no dignity at all, being only a lie. Or God can call the refusers, woo them, beg them, even lay down his life for them--but ultimately admit he has to let them have their own way. Very painful and difficult.
I gather you put no stock in those who believe that God has predestined some to Hell?
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Yorick: If heaven is being in God's Perfect Love, there isn't anyone who would sanely and freely choose against it- by absolute definition.
If everyone you know values and seeks love more than anything else, I want to meet your friends! I seem to be surrounded by people who so value status or money or power or feeling superior to others that they gladly diss others solely to gain what they value more than the love and friendship that was offered.
At least one man I knew would backstab you just for sport. If he couldn't backstab God he wouldn't enjoy heaven! And certainly not if he couldn't backstab people.
In heaven there will be no backstabbing because it's not about God loves you while you continue ignoring God's existence and while you continue doing dirty to others - that's earth here and now, God loves you even while you (generic you) ignore God and diss others.
Heaven is an environment where everything reflects God's love, the people there have to be reflecting God's love or they would be making heaven into the earth we know - jealousy and pride and desperation and hurt feelings (or worse).
It takes free will choice to live in an environment where you have to be a giver of love as well as receiver. Supposedly a third of the angels said "heck with this," being loved and transmitting love to others is not "enough" for some.
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by leo: Love would be very threatening to their sense of autonomy.
Well that's not Perfect Love then.
Perfect Love, as touted about by Christianity, isn't like what these people can imagine. God's love is absolute, and altogether different from our feeble human version. By very definition, it is precisely unthreatening to their sense of autonomy, because it's Perfect.
Nah, I don't buy it. If heaven is being in God's Perfect Love, there isn't anyone who would sanely and freely choose against it- by absolute definition.
How does anyone know what 'perfect love' is?
We all fall short of being able to accept it, which is why the doctrine of purgatory is so insightful.
I didn't say that anyone would 'refuse' it - just that it would take some people longer than others to grow spiritually enough to be able to receive it without pain.
-------------------- My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/ My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
Keeping with my "Let's keep it vague" idea, I'll just say "Some people don't like God or their neighbors, so God has a place for them to bugger off to away from it all called Hell."
I'll leave what that hell is like to Yorick's imagination.
Zach
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Anselmina: ...it really doesn't seem impossble that someone might similarly choose an eternity of suffering over the alternative.
Maybe, if, as you say, they're quite incapable of making a sane decision about it. And so the mad, the bad and the sad go to hell.
Reminiscent of Himmler's Final Solution, isn't it?
I wouldn't know, as it's clear from my first post, I - unlike you - make no connection with someone deciding for themselves they'd prefer to go to hell (however they imagine that place) and actually ending up there (should it exist). I've clearly stated that I am agnostic about a 'locational' hell, and equally I've clearly stated that I leave it to God to decide the eternal destinies of human beings.
Additionally, I think sane people are perfectly capable of exercising their free will, even if it is to their own detriment. And I don't think one needs to be insane to make imperfect decisions about one's eternal destiny - theoretical or otherwise. Unwise, uninformed, incomprehensible, even, but not insane.
-------------------- Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
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Bullfrog.
 Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by leo: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by leo: Love would be very threatening to their sense of autonomy.
Well that's not Perfect Love then.
Perfect Love, as touted about by Christianity, isn't like what these people can imagine. God's love is absolute, and altogether different from our feeble human version. By very definition, it is precisely unthreatening to their sense of autonomy, because it's Perfect.
Nah, I don't buy it. If heaven is being in God's Perfect Love, there isn't anyone who would sanely and freely choose against it- by absolute definition.
How does anyone know what 'perfect love' is?
We all fall short of being able to accept it, which is why the doctrine of purgatory is so insightful.
I didn't say that anyone would 'refuse' it - just that it would take some people longer than others to grow spiritually enough to be able to receive it without pain.
I'm not sure it's possible to love without experiencing pain.
-------------------- Some say that man is the root of all evil Others say God's a drunkard for pain Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Orlando098
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# 14930
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Posted
Interesting viewpoints, and it seems like no one much belives in the old-fashioned eternal actual tortures scenario (I saw an image from an Italian church on the net recently, showing sinners having hot pokers put up them by devils , which is not too charming. And in any case, I am not sure why in these Medieval hells devils were assigned jobs like this... surely they ought to be suffering too? Or maybe their suffering comes at the final lake of fire bit, and these pictures just depict the interrim after-death scenario?!).
Tertullian's comments about hell are among the less charitable I have read (though fortunately not typical these days...): Tertullian "How shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."
Whatever it is supposed to be like though, I do wonder where Biblically-speaking, it is supposed to have come in; I mean, in Genesis, leaving aside the problem of a literal Adam and Eve, God listed to them the punishments they could expect, and they included dying (perhaps he planned to let them ear from the Tree of Life before that?) but no mention of hell. Nor is there any indication the OT patriarchs were fearing it. It especially seems quite unreasonable that all the sinners died in the flood, but Noah and his family should still be hell-bound.
re. the C of E's view, it does seem to have changed since the days when the Athanasian Creed was listed in the 39 Articles - it says: He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.
The Evangelical Alliance however apparently complained about the idea that hell was just annihilation. They said most of their members thought it was a period of punishment, and then, possibly, annihilation. Interesting that even they adopt this kind of halfway house (which they say should be taught in schools). alliance
As for the idea that hell is where people go who have rejected God, I am unsure as to what this rejection consists of, eg. whether it applies to a kind humanist, unconvinced about religion, or just evil people, but then how evil and what if they are that way because they suffered a lot, or were mentally ill?
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Bullfrog.
 Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote: Originally Posted by Orlando098: Interesting viewpoints, and it seems like no one much belives in the old-fashioned eternal actual tortures scenario (I saw an image from an Italian church on the net recently, showing sinners having hot pokers put up them by devils , which is not too charming. And in any case, I am not sure why in these Medieval hells devils were assigned jobs like this... surely they ought to be suffering too? Or maybe their suffering comes at the final lake of fire bit, and these pictures just depict the interrim after-death scenario?!).
Blame Dante.
-------------------- Some say that man is the root of all evil Others say God's a drunkard for pain Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Nooj
Apprentice
# 15637
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Orlando098: As for the idea that hell is where people go who have rejected God, I am unsure as to what this rejection consists of, eg. whether it applies to a kind humanist, unconvinced about religion, or just evil people, but then how evil and what if they are that way because they suffered a lot, or were mentally ill?
Aren't we all evil? The curse of original sin affects each and every human being who has ever and will ever live and so we all deserve Hell. [ 23. August 2010, 19:48: Message edited by: Nooj ]
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Orlando098
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# 14930
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Bullfrog.: More to the point, I sometimes wonder what to make of the fact that most of the references to "hell" In the NT are using a word for a particular physical place, the Valley of Hinnom.
It seems like Jesus sometimes compared the final Lake of Fire in an everlasting resurrected body to rubbish and probably animal carcasses etc, burning in this valley - maybe it was just a familiar and unpleasant sight? Though that doesn't mean he necessarily meant it so literally of course, though he might have done.
I understand there are also references to Sheol,which was the traditional Jewish underworld, a place of shade, without pleasure but without pain either especially, I think; or sometimes just used as a synonym for being dead/the grave generally.
Then there is "Hades", which was originally the Greek underworld which had nice parts and unpleasant parts or neutral ones where your soul went according to your actions. It seems to me that the idea in Christianity of some temporary destination after death and before resurrection is equated to this kind of thing. There are also reference to some souls being "in the bosom of Abraham" which I would take as a nice bit of the Underworld.
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Orlando098
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# 14930
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Bullfrog.: .Blame Dante.
Good point [ 23. August 2010, 19:53: Message edited by: Orlando098 ]
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Boogie
 Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Nooj: Aren't we all evil? The curse of original sin affects each and every human being who has ever and will ever live and so we all deserve Hell.
Why?
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Orlando098: Tertullian's comments about hell are among the less charitable I have read (though fortunately not typical these days...): Tertullian "How shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; ...
I would think it greater delight to see one of those "proud monarchs" etc in heaven and know "he got it! He finally caught on! Yes!" instead of "I don't care if he ever discovered God and changed his ways or not, he deserves to suffer for what he did to me." But then, I'm not a church father, nor am I an intentional follower of church fathers, I'm a follower of Jesus who took the forgiveness approach instead of the "she deserves to suffer for what she did to me" approach.
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Nooj
Apprentice
# 15637
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Boogie: quote: Originally posted by Nooj: Aren't we all evil? The curse of original sin affects each and every human being who has ever and will ever live and so we all deserve Hell.
Why?
Well maybe deserve Hell is too strong. But what I was taught was that everyone would go there, unless God gave you the grace that allowed you to choose salvation. Because the sinful nature of humanity is otherwise fatal, and that sin is what Jesus died to save us from.
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HoosierNan
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# 91
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Posted
A little parable about heaven and hell; maybe this will clarify that "choice" thing we have been discussing.
A man asked for a tour of both heaven and hell. God sent an angel as his guide.
In hell, there was a room full of people who were obviously starving, just skin and bones, desperately hungry. In the middle of this round chamber there was a pot of stew making a wonderful aroma in the room. The only spoons had handles 3 meters long, and were slippery except at the very end, so that one could dip out the stew, but could not bring the spoon to one's mouth.
The man found this horrible, to be starving with plenty right in front of you, and he begged the angel to take him quickly to heaven.
In heaven was the same room, with the same bubbling stew pot and long, slippery spoons. But everyone there was gloriously well-fed and happy, chatting, playing music, and obviously enjoying themselves.
The man was astonished! He said to the angel, "I don't understand. What made the difference?"
The angel replied, "In heaven, they know how to feed one another."
Confer Matthew 25: 31-46.
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Orlando098
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# 14930
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Nooj: quote: Originally posted by Boogie: quote: Originally posted by Nooj: Aren't we all evil? The curse of original sin affects each and every human being who has ever and will ever live and so we all deserve Hell.
Why?
Well maybe deserve Hell is too strong. But what I was taught was that everyone would go there, unless God gave you the grace that allowed you to choose salvation. Because the sinful nature of humanity is otherwise fatal, and that sin is what Jesus died to save us from.
But I don't understand why all the talk of punishment and fire etc and not just annihilation in that case? It seems like Christianity uses words like death or "fatal" as euphemisms when it seems to mean something even worse. [ 23. August 2010, 20:41: Message edited by: Orlando098 ]
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Orlando098
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# 14930
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Posted
Or certain versions of Christianity, anyway.
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Bullfrog.
 Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Orlando098: quote: Originally posted by Nooj: quote: Originally posted by Boogie: quote: Originally posted by Nooj: Aren't we all evil? The curse of original sin affects each and every human being who has ever and will ever live and so we all deserve Hell.
Why?
Well maybe deserve Hell is too strong. But what I was taught was that everyone would go there, unless God gave you the grace that allowed you to choose salvation. Because the sinful nature of humanity is otherwise fatal, and that sin is what Jesus died to save us from.
But I don't understand why all the talk of punishment and fire etc and not just annihilation in that case? It seems like Christianity uses words like death or "fatal" as euphemisms when it seems to mean something even worse.
In Revelation there is talk of a "second death."
-------------------- Some say that man is the root of all evil Others say God's a drunkard for pain Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Orlando098
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# 14930
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by HoosierNan:
The angel replied, "In heaven, they know how to feed one another."
Confer Matthew 25: 31-46. [/QB]
OK, thanks for the illustration. I suppose though at the end of the day, to some extent people go with the version they are most comfortable with. I mean from the basic references in the Bible, it is hard to know what exactly is meant, though it doesn't sound much fun. It is also worrying that is says the stuff about the broad road and narrow gate, suggesting most people will in fact not make it to heaven.
Posts: 1019 | From: Nice, France | Registered: Jul 2009
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Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Bullfrog.:In Revelation there is talk of a "second death." [/QB]
Well, true, but that's the lake of fire isn't it? Though I guess some people take the view that that refers to destruction not ongoing suffering.
Posts: 1019 | From: Nice, France | Registered: Jul 2009
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Bullfrog.: quote: Originally posted by leo: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by leo: Love would be very threatening to their sense of autonomy.
Well that's not Perfect Love then.
Perfect Love, as touted about by Christianity, isn't like what these people can imagine. God's love is absolute, and altogether different from our feeble human version. By very definition, it is precisely unthreatening to their sense of autonomy, because it's Perfect.
Nah, I don't buy it. If heaven is being in God's Perfect Love, there isn't anyone who would sanely and freely choose against it- by absolute definition.
How does anyone know what 'perfect love' is?
We all fall short of being able to accept it, which is why the doctrine of purgatory is so insightful.
I didn't say that anyone would 'refuse' it - just that it would take some people longer than others to grow spiritually enough to be able to receive it without pain.
I'm not sure it's possible to love without experiencing pain.
Exactly.
-------------------- My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/ My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Orlando098
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# 14930
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: I'm not a church father, nor am I an intentional follower of church fathers, I'm a follower of Jesus who took the forgiveness approach instead of the "she deserves to suffer for what she did to me" approach. [/QB]
True, it's not the most Jesus-like of comments on his part.. though I guess he could get quite grumpy about his enemies at times, like when he or the apostles visited towns that weren't impressed by their teachings, as in this bit: "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shall be brought down to hell; for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained unto this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."
Posts: 1019 | From: Nice, France | Registered: Jul 2009
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Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Anselmina:
Bearing in mind that many people, believing only in annihilation, choose annihilation over life,
But most of those people don't choose it, they just don't feel like they have good reason enough to hope for something else, so think they have to put up with the likelihood of it; I am sure they would be happy to choose an alternative if they thought there was one
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Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Nooj: quote: extractus ex anum
Might as well as put my Classical education to good use - extractus ex ano.
thank you for the clarificaiton; I wasn't sure
Posts: 1019 | From: Nice, France | Registered: Jul 2009
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Bullfrog.
 Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Orlando098: quote: Originally posted by Bullfrog.:In Revelation there is talk of a "second death."
Well, true, but that's the lake of fire isn't it? Though I guess some people take the view that that refers to destruction not ongoing suffering. [/QB]
You could go in all kinds of directions with that kind of imagery.
-------------------- Some say that man is the root of all evil Others say God's a drunkard for pain Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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The Revolutionist
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# 4578
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Posted
Yes, ISTM that most Christians are embarrassed by Hell. Even evangelicals who are otherwise unflinching in waving the flag for unfashionable teachings often get a bit evasive when it comes to Hell.
I think the reason is very simple: we don't have a high enough understanding of the heights of God's honour, goodness and glory, and we don't have a deep enough understanding of the horror of sin.
We like to think that we find Hell horrible because we are nice, good people - we don't want our friends to suffer like that. And there's some truth in that; we are rightly moved to compassion, just as God had compassion on us and sent his son to offer forgiveness.
But what makes Hell particularly hard for us to accept it is how horrible we must be if we all deserve God's judgement, as the Bible teaches (see Paul's argument in Romans 1-3, for example). We find Hell horrible because we are rotten sinners, and we don't like to be faced with the reality of what we all deserve.
Those who still profess belief in Hell tend to emphasise that Hell is the moral consequence of persistent rejection of God, freely chosen. And that's exactly right, but the Bible doesn't blush to say that Hell is not only the result of chosen unrepentance, but is also inflicted by God. He doesn't just passively allow sinners to reap the consequences of their own freewill choices, but in the end, actively condemns them for their wicked choices. God is the judge, he will bring down the executioner's axe, as we see throughout the Bible.
Now obviously most of the descriptions of Hell in the Bible use symbolic imagery - the valley of Gehenna, fire, outer darkness and so on. But the force of the imagery is all very strong, of pain and separation and destruction. The reality will be no less horrible for having been described symbolically.
quote: Originally posted by Nooj: ]Mr Aquinas said that the blessed in Heaven rejoice at the suffering of the damned in Hell because it's the result of God's justice, and God's justice is praise-worthy.
Indeed, and Aquinas wasn't making that up out of nowhere - that's exactly what we see in Revelation 19:1-5, where God's people rejoices in the justice of his judgements. We will celebrate God's goodness and justice in putting the universe to rights and in finally liberating it from all evil.
Hell is a difficult and uncomfortable doctrine, but Hell shouldn't make us ashamed, but all the more proud of the Cross - where we see God's goodness and grace in suffering to save us, to open the way for us to be forgiven and restored, for evil to be defeated and the universe remade, through Jesus Christ.
Posts: 1296 | From: London | Registered: May 2003
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Orlando098: quote: Originally posted by Anselmina:
Bearing in mind that many people, believing only in annihilation, choose annihilation over life,
But most of those people don't choose it, they just don't feel like they have good reason enough to hope for something else, so think they have to put up with the likelihood of it; I am sure they would be happy to choose an alternative if they thought there was one
I didn't mean that nihilists all want to kill themselves. I meant that even for people who don't believe in an afterlife, and who wish to commit suicide, choose annihilation to life. Otherwise they wouldn't kill themselves.
After all, there is always an alternative to choosing self-annihiliation, isn't there. There is not choosing it.
That the choice may be in reality better or worse than they imagine it, doesn't detract from the fact that they made that choice; and to cover Yorick's point, it doesn't necessarily follow that they were sectionable when they did make that decision. They may have been mistaken, genuinelly deluded or perfectly cognizant of what they were doing all along and willing to part with life on those terms. Unlikely, one hopes, but not impossible given the depth of human complexities.
This was to counter Yorick's assertion that anyone - obviously religious - preferring or choosing hell over heaven must be not sane. The decision may appear to be insane to a beholder, but that doesn't necessarily mean the person making the decision is insane.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
Oh, well, it's morning here in Oz, but it seems we've not made much progress during the night.
quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Yeah, you decide what living in hell is like, and define it as people getting trapped in self-harming cycles, for example, 'relational issues').
I'm very sorry for being too coy for you. When I referred to drugs and relational issues I was talking about the tip of the iceberg. If you want me to talk about the actual living hell that some people experience (involving daily physical and sexual abuse) I could do.
I'm talking about conditions that pretty much everyone would describe as unbearable.
quote: Originally posted by PhilA: I doubt anyone - ever - knowing the outcome, has made a decision to live in a way that would be described as hellish.
If you knew that doing X caused intense pain and no good would come from it, or doing Y would cause great pleasure and no harm would come from it, anyone with the mental capacity to make an informed choice, and no other mental or emotional problems would choose Y.
The only way someone would choose X is if they didn't understand the choice, have some form of mental health issue or didn't know the outcome. Why would God allow people in these categories to 'choose' an eternal option they didn't fully grasp? That isn't loving, that's sick.
I'm talking about people who understand better than I do the consequences of their actions. They understand fully, they just don't believe / want to believe that it will happen to them. They will be different.
For example - "If you don't leave him he will keep on hitting you ... and the kids."
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Jolly Jape
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# 3296
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Posted
quote: originally posted by The Revolutionist
I think the reason is very simple: we don't have a high enough understanding of the heights of God's honour, goodness and glory, and we don't have a deep enough understanding of the horror of sin.
We like to think that we find Hell horrible because we are nice, good people - we don't want our friends to suffer like that. And there's some truth in that; we are rightly moved to compassion, just as God had compassion on us and sent his son to offer forgiveness.
But what makes Hell particularly hard for us to accept it is how horrible we must be if we all deserve God's judgement, as the Bible teaches (see Paul's argument in Romans 1-3, for example). We find Hell horrible because we are rotten sinners, and we don't like to be faced with the reality of what we all deserve.
I find this viewpoint just bizarre, TR. Why should knowing that we do not deserve God's grace be required to make us think hell (as imagined in the terms you use) is a horrible concept. It makes no sense at all. Is not the alternative explanation, that eternal torment (or even temporary torment) cannot be justified, indeed, is just plain wrong, and to suggest that such an idea comes from the conscious decision of God is a foul blasphemy on His nature, and it would remain so even if only the likes of Pol Pot would be the ones to suffer it.
-------------------- To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Adeodatus: have you an alternative to Augustine's vision of hell?
I'm not sure what hell is like - I don't take Jesus' images literally, but I assume that it is not nice.
quote: Originally posted by Adeodatus: It was certainly the one I was brought up not believing in, and it seems - if you'll pardon the expression - very popular. And my more general point, really, is that I get the impression that those who joyfully consign untold billions to hell haven't really thought about it very much, and what's more would probably yell and cry at what an unjust place the world is if they burnt their hand on a stove.
I don't know where you get this 'middle-class' hell from. My point has been precisely the opposite. The place I frequently find this objection to hell is in 'nice' places where the intelligentsia sip chardonney and check their share options. As writers like Miroslav Volf point out - in really unjust parts of the world belief in hell is actually quite common.
This subject has done the rounds on the ship many times. The one question that never seems to be answered is this:
How is God supposed to stop all the evil and injustice completely and exhaustively without intervening with some kind of coercive action? How is he supposed to do that without, as LC says, undermining free will? (and from what example / analogy in humanity do you base that assumption on?)
Leo's version of hell just raises Lyda*Rose's question - what's stopping him doing it now then? Your vision of God is one who is waiting to finish his fag until he can be bothered to stop all the pain and injustice in the world. There is nothing else holding him up. What an uncaring bastard.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
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Posted
Most of the posts on here seem to me to be just people's own ideas of what they think hell is like, but Revelation tells us that those whose names are not written in the Book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. That is horrible and frightening and so people make up their own ideas,because they just can't accept it. I was very afraid of going to Hell and that is what made me choose the redemption that Christ offered and I am very glad that I did. likewise my wife got saved because she to began to think that she would go to hell. this was before we met and got married We learned as we went throught life that the Christian life is much more than just escaping hell, but the fear of hell brought us to Christ in the first place. People used to preach about hell 60 or so years ago but now we hardly ever hear about it in today's sermons even in evangelical and charismatic circles. We hear a lot aboout the Love of God which is wonderful but I think that it has to be balanced by the judgment of God also.
-------------------- Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1
Posts: 1050 | From: england | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lyda*Rose
 Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
So you follow Jesus because you fear him, not because you love him, barrea?
-------------------- "Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Nooj: quote: Originally posted by Lamb Chopped: I think hell is an inevitability in a universe where God has chosen to give creatures free will. Unless we're all extremely lucky (ha), some of them are bound to use that free will to refuse blessedness.
At that point God can do one of two things. He can arbitrarily snatch away their free will and FORCE them to accept blessing--in which case free will was only ever a sham anyway, and human choice and freedom has no dignity at all, being only a lie. Or God can call the refusers, woo them, beg them, even lay down his life for them--but ultimately admit he has to let them have their own way. Very painful and difficult.
I gather you put no stock in those who believe that God has predestined some to Hell?
Quite right. I believe God has predestined NOBODY to hell. Heck, he's even told us it wasn't made for people at all. Anyone who goes there does so against God's desire and against proper human nature.
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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