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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Religious education in state schools
oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
I don't think the meaning of commonly used words is simply a matter of perspective. I think ignoring someone's question and answering it are something that can genuinely be distinguished.

Even if it was possible to redefine "answer" in that way though I'm not sure it would do your argument any good. Yes you could say people had "answered" my questions, but the phrase would have become hollow and meaningless and we'd still be in the same situation of important points being ignored.

I have met very gifted children whose thought processes are so quick that their answers ...


Sorry this is just getting ridiculous.

There are major points, and I listed them earlier, that haven't been answered. No amount of stories about how sometimes we have different perspectives about whether an answer is an answer is going to change that. If you think I have missed an answer, identify it, don't just imply that it's there somewhere if only I wasn't so damn thick.

quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
quote:
There's no "instead" in this. Christianity is not recreated from scratch with every new generation. You cannot understand current religious thought without understanding the tradition it appears in.
Don't ask an closet evangelical that. [Biased] My religion is based on my personal relationship with my savior. Religious thought and philosophy really has nothing to do with my personal worship.

I actually believe that Jesus can start a relationship with someone without them knowing a thing about church history or church thought.

I suggest the evangelical idea that their doctrines came directly from God without being mediated through their religious tradition has as much claim to be considered a valid description of Christianity as the idea the world was created in 6 days, 6000 years ago, has a claim to be considered a valid description of scientific fact.

The education system cannot be neutral over ignorance. It either educates or it doesn't, and calls to emulate the ignorant are no argument for a different kind of education; they are an argument against education.

quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
quote:

Obviously the religious knowledge to be taught in a Jewish school would be different. But the existence of people who with no interest in the major religions of England, can only be an excuse for not teaching religious education at all, it cannot be an excuse for hijacking religious education and replacing it with something other than education about religion, and calling that religious education.

I'm not sure if you are advocating different schools for different religions, different RE classes for different religions, or that all English citizens should be instructed in the history and theology (what ever it is lately) of the C of E. Care to choose?


I'm dealing with the school structures as they exist. I was just pointing out that the existence of Jews in a school is not in itself an excuse for skipping a basic knowledge of Christianity, and outside of a faith school of a non-Christian religion there would be little excuse for not having a substantial part of RE time spent on Christianity.
quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
I'm writing in English. It's the common language of these boards. Comprehension is the job of the reader. Mdijon and others can comprehend what I wrote, so I'm not convinced that what I wrote was incomprehensible.

Still waiting for you or Mdijon to explain the stuff that made no sense. It's been several days now.

My conclusion is that .... it really didn't make sense.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
No, the cumulative structured multi-sensory approach is using all the teaching methods for reading systematically. So you teach phonics and reading and memorising whole words - phonics being absolutely no use for reading, for example, honey, come, was or because, at word level.

Then you also teach at sentence and text level, so the meaning of words and the meaning of text and how to guess from context what a word might be, and how verbs work in different situations, or nouns or adjectives. Then you also use sound, touch, actions and visual stimuli to reinforce this, touch, for example, being the following fingers around letters and words.

If you are continually switching from one way of teaching to another, how is it cumulative?

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
'Drilling' implies sargeant major style teaching!

Oh for pity's sake.

"Drill" is a commonly used word for a routine or exercise.

To "drill" as a method of instruction would imply methodical instruction, involving practice and repetition. i.e. structured, cumulative teaching.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

Dyslexia friendly means understanding the condition and working to the students' strengths - of which there will be many.

The definition I've seen is about awareness of difficulties, not "working to strengths" which, let's face it, is rarely a good idea if you want students to make progress at overcoming their weaknesses.

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

Yes, synthetic phonics works very well as part of teaching reading - but it's far from the whole story.

Well it's the bit of the story that's proven to work. That makes it pretty central in my book.


quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

I think the most important thing for any SpLD students/adults is a 'No blame' approach.
Teachers who say 'Why can't you ..... ' need to find out why instead to blaming the child or parent.

What are you talking about? Has anyone in here suggested we blame dyslexics and their parents for difficulties with literacy?

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

<This is quite a tangent from RE teaching, but maybe the principles transfer?>

Definitely. Dumbing down the teaching of reading and dumbing down the teaching of RE are two sides of the same coin and many of the excuses for doing so are the same.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The distance matters. researchers such as Goldman, on Religious Development, Kohlberg on moral development, Fowler on spiritual development and Piaget on cognitive development tend to use something to an eight-level-scale and argue that people, of any age, can only understand something that is two stages further on than their current stage.

Now who's behind the times?

Does anyone still believe this stuff?

First sensible thing you have said on this thread.

Piaget was a researcher, and an interesting one (if not always a very good one), but he missed a lot of good stuff and his main model is quite untenable now.

Fowler isn't a researcher, he is a polemicist.

Those scales are nonsense.

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Ken

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

I'd contend that PlB is understood by pretty much everybody. He might have used that unfortunate turn of phrase to indicate he's being wilfully and deliberatly misunderstood. We've all had students like that, surely...

If you are going to imply I have wilfully misunderstood something, then I suggest you answer my questions about the passage that made no sense.

If you can't then I would hope you have the good manners to apologise.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It is certainly used as a tool for RE teachers, for assessment levels and by clergy, especially in spiritual direction.

I suffered three years of it in the Southwark Readers training course. That and Myers bloody Briggs. Maybe a quarter of the classes were wasted on all that stuff.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:

... hijacking religious education and replacing it with something other than education about religion, and calling that religious education.

And back to the point, religious history or how to apply religion. Which is religious education? Or are they both?

It includes history in so far as history is needed to know about and understand religion. I don't know what "how to apply religion" means (or rather, before we have another argument about what I should or shouldn't understand, I'm not convinced it is a coherent concept given that religion is, by its very nature, applied.)
quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:

quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
... knowledge consists of more than memorising a list of facts. Nobody is arguing for rote. The point is that knowledge is indispensible, not that it shouldn't be engaged with.

So maybe you believe both?
Or maybe I believe what I say I believe?

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
I have not entered the conversation because I no little about religious education. This is a little different. It does not have to be fun nor highly pleasurable just interesting.

Are you suggesting that we throw out everything that isn't interesting?
quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:

If you don't make what you teach interesting you are not really teaching.

Ermmm...

... I hate to do this, I'd much rather identify a counter-argument but ...

...isn't that just obviously wrong?

Haven't we all been successfully taught boring stuff at some point in our lives? We can certainly learn boring things.

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PhilA

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quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
I'm not convinced it is a coherent concept given that religion is, by its very nature, applied.)

What do you mean by applied?

I assume you know a bit about Islam; a few key teachings, a bit of history about Muhammad (p.b.u.h) maybe the 5 pillars and what p.b.u.h means. Would you say that you applied that?

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
So did Pata excuse sloppy or uninformative writing by foisting it off on the reader or did she reexplain the post in a more understandable way and realized from the reader's subsequent post that the reader probably did not want to understand her post so foisted off on the reader since any amount of her explaining would not clarify her post enough for that particular reader?

I think the first option here is much nearer the mark.

But if you think Pata's post made sense feel free to answer my questions about it.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
You are right at least to a degree. I should have said enthusiasm was part of what made learning possible for me. Remember I am talking about me not the masses. Most people don't have parents who consider an A as average.

Surely pressure at home would make the teacher's emotional state less, not more, important to your motivation?

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Curiosity killed ...

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quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
No, the cumulative structured multi-sensory approach is using all the teaching methods for reading systematically. So you teach phonics and reading and memorising whole words - phonics being absolutely no use for reading, for example, honey, come, was or because, at word level.

Then you also teach at sentence and text level, so the meaning of words and the meaning of text and how to guess from context what a word might be, and how verbs work in different situations, or nouns or adjectives. Then you also use sound, touch, actions and visual stimuli to reinforce this, touch, for example, being the following fingers around letters and words.

If you are continually switching from one way of teaching to another, how is it cumulative?
The particular methods that use this, CatchUp or the early NZ version of Reading Recovery, give the children 15 minutes 1:1 reading teaching a day and it structures the session to make sure all areas are covered within the session.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
I read in both posts a theme of teaching or not teaching creativity and perhaps other thinking skills.

Is this meant to be your explanation of how Pata's post made sense?

And if so are you really claiming that Pata communicates by following the theme of posts rather than the meaning?

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The particular methods that use this, CatchUp or the early NZ version of Reading Recovery, give the children 15 minutes 1:1 reading teaching a day and it structures the session to make sure all areas are covered within the session.

All I can say is that I dispute the effectiveness of that programme, and stand by my claim that phonics instruction is the most effective method.

[ 22. July 2010, 18:23: Message edited by: oldandrew ]

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:

Emotions are very much part of education - are you unaware of SEAL?http://nationalstrategies.standards.dcsf.gov.uk/primary/publications/banda/seal

If you are and don't approve ot if, does that mean that you think schools should turn a blind eye to bullying?

If schools are there merely to impart facts, why not save shed loads of money and buy each child a computer with broadband and send round a personal tutor once a week for an hour to set targets for the coming week?

The Tory 1988 act insisted that schooling: "promotes the spiritual, moral, cultural, mental and physical development of pupils at the school and of society"

Your capacity to continue with both the argument from authority and the use of straw men never ceases to amaze me.

You're not dealing with kids now. People can see right through this way of arguing.

No amount of official documents or claims about the position of anyone who disagrees with you can change the simple fact: no curriculum can determine how children feel.

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Curiosity killed ...

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We trialled the phonics programme from Warwick University with University support. When we started, some students did make huge gains. After using it for 5 years, as the primary schools explicitly taught phonics as part of the county-wide teaching programmes, there were fewer and fewer gains in teaching phonics. To do it, the group of students were pulled out of lessons three times a day to do a 15 minute phonics session and a few years in, the gains weren't worth the hassle. The more holistic 1:1 approaches did work.

You'll find the research on CatchUp shows good gains and the suggestion is that it works because it doesn't rely on one method.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
We trialled the phonics programme from Warwick University with University support. When we started, some students did make huge gains. After using it for 5 years, as the primary schools explicitly taught phonics as part of the county-wide teaching programmes, there were fewer and fewer gains in teaching phonics.

According to whom?
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:

To do it, the group of students were pulled out of lessons three times a day to do a 15 minute phonics session and a few years in, the gains weren't worth the hassle. The more holistic 1:1 approaches did work.

You'll find the research on CatchUp shows good gains and the suggestion is that it works because it doesn't rely on one method.

It would take more research than that to overturn more than half a century of research favouring phonics over mixed methods.

But here's a tip: Try teaching them for more than 15 minutes at a time.

[ 22. July 2010, 18:42: Message edited by: oldandrew ]

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Curiosity killed ...

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You're not reading my argument. You're saying that the way to teach children to read in secondary if they don't already read is to teach them phonics. I am saying, that from experience, and from running a reading programme, that many students in secondary school have already been taught phonics. When we did intensive phonics teaching as remedial reading it worked so long as the students had not already been taught phonics. When the primary schools started teaching phonics, as part of a county wide programme, teaching phonics as a reading programme stopped being effective.

What is effective to teach those who have not already learnt to read is a multi-sensory cumulative programme that doesn't rely on one method only, because the normal methods haven't worked at this stage.

By the way, the other thing you didn't read was that the phonics catch up programme was 3 x 15 minutes every day. Teachers don't like their less able students arriving late or leaving early for most of their lessons.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Just as maths teaches rearranging formulae and drawing graphs, not science, even though they use them equally, the National Curriculum tends not to teach the same thing twice in different curriculum areas, but assume (I'm not saying this is right or wrong) that is the way the National Curriculum is set up.

Last time I looked "cross curricular links" were actually very much encouraged in the National Curriculum.

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Curiosity killed ...

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And that doesn't work for RE and history?

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
You're not reading my argument. You're saying that the way to teach children to read in secondary if they don't already read is to teach them phonics. I am saying, that from experience, and from running a reading programme, that many students in secondary school have already been taught phonics. When we did intensive phonics teaching as remedial reading it worked so long as the students had not already been taught phonics. When the primary schools started teaching phonics, as part of a county wide programme, teaching phonics as a reading programme stopped being effective.

What is effective to teach those who have not already learnt to read is a multi-sensory cumulative programme that doesn't rely on one method only, because the normal methods haven't worked at this stage.

I don't know why you think I'm not reading your argument. I have already acknowledged this when you said it before.

If I remember correctly I acknowledged it by saying "according to whom?", a question which you appear to have ignored.

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:

By the way, the other thing you didn't read was that the phonics catch up programme was 3 x 15 minutes every day. Teachers don't like their less able students arriving late or leaving early for most of their lessons.

I am pretty certain I did read this before.

I am pretty certain I commented that I didn't think 15 minute lessons were a good idea.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
And that doesn't work for RE and history?

What?

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Curiosity killed ...

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The 3 x 15 minutes a day was the prescribed method by the University of Warwick,

And no, I'm not identifying myself any more than you will, but funding decisions and research feedback requires good record keeping, so we kept them.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
...Some kids are just bad. I know it's not PC to say so in such an unambiguous way, but we all know it.

Scientists these days would probably agree that certain kids have serious, genetically based behavioral problems.

Would they?

Are you sure about this?

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The 3 x 15 minutes a day was the prescribed method by the University of Warwick,

And no, I'm not identifying myself any more than you will, but funding decisions and research feedback requires good record keeping, so we kept them.

Are you saying that the evidence on effectiveness was based on your own record keeping?

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Curiosity killed ...

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No, but that if I go too far into this I'm identifying more than I am prepared to on an open internet discussion.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

That doesn't mean schools can just kick them out, though. May be you think they ought to be able to, but with compulsory education/training till 18, someone, somewhere has to deal with it. What's your solution?

To what?

I mean I support provision for students that are kicked out of school, but even if that wasn't provided I can't see why kicking them out of a place where they aren't learning (and are stopping others from learning) is somehow worse than keeping them in. I don't see why people only raise the issue of provision for the unteachable only if it's suggested they be kicked out of mainstream schools. Surely it's just as much, if not more of an issue, if they are still in mainstream schools and causing chaos?

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

(and in a vague attempt to stay on topic, it strikes me that some of what PhilA and leo do in lessons addresses some of their problems in a way that algebra just won't)

That's a really good demonstration as to how much people just write a nice little story in their heads about the personalities in an argument rather than consider the actual arguments.

Last time I looked we were finding it pretty hard to establish what leo and Phil do in their classrooms ("theologising", anybody?). Yet somehow you have not only established this to your satisfaction but have decided which students it's good for.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
No, but that if I go too far into this I'm identifying more than I am prepared to on an open internet discussion.

Oh for pity's sake. You were the one who named the University. All I wanted to know is (roughly) where your conclusion came from: teacher judgement; staff meeting; practitioner research; academic research. If it involves you directly then fair enough, I won't ask for the details, but can you at least indicate that it's more than a personal opinion by yourself, or you and a few others?

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

Secondly, I'd set up separate institutions to keep all the bad 'uns in one place, and try to educate them there. That way the majority of decent kids can get a good education without their disruptive ways.

Granted on the first - but unless you can persuade the little treasures that fruit picking is a valid career path, they're going to spend the rest of their lives on the dole or, assuming your answer is to cut their dole, in and out of other people's houses, then in and out of prison.
As opposed to...?

What do you think happens to them now?

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The distance matters. researchers such as Goldman, on Religious Development, Kohlberg on moral development, Fowler on spiritual development and Piaget on cognitive development tend to use something to an eight-level-scale and argue that people, of any age, can only understand something that is two stages further on than their current stage.

Now who's behind the times?

Does anyone still believe this stuff?

First sensible thing you have said on this thread.

Piaget was a researcher, and an interesting one (if not always a very good one), but he missed a lot of good stuff and his main model is quite untenable now.

Fowler isn't a researcher, he is a polemicist.

Those scales are nonsense.

Why is it untenable?

Most people who reject such research do so because they show up as rather low down the scales.

[ 22. July 2010, 20:01: Message edited by: leo ]

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PhilA

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quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:

Last time I looked we were finding it pretty hard to establish what leo and Phil do in their classrooms ("theologising", anybody?). Yet somehow you have not only established this to your satisfaction but have decided which students it's good for.

I have explained some of what I do (quite polemically I'll agree) in the classroom. Would you like full schemes of work and lesson plans?

You obviously disagree with the methods I use to teach and with what I do, but to say that I haven't said what I do is a lie.

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leo
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He can't be bothered to read lesson plans. I have offered them and he rejected them. He'd rather pontificate from his great his of all-knowingness.

Methinks it is the holiday and we should get some fun while it lasts.

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rugasaw
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quote:
Originally posted by fat-tony:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
I start a PGDE in 4 weeks time and I'd just like to ask......

.....are staffrooms generally this fraught? [Help]

If I remember correctly...Yup.

It's just like a school playground. Instead of the groups you get in schools, smokers, lovers, fighters, goths, emo's, handbag brigade, artyones, geeks etc; you've got effectively 4 groups with subsets overly enthusiastic(broken down into iniative careerists and NQT's), overly cynical (near retirement, seen it all before types), Realists( What's the least crap I have to do to teach the kids and stay out of trouble, or the ones just trying to get promoted through being good at their job) and PE staff.

That's one reason I stay out of the staff rooms.

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rugasaw
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quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
I have not entered the conversation because I no little about religious education. This is a little different. It does not have to be fun nor highly pleasurable just interesting.

Are you suggesting that we throw out everything that isn't interesting?
No I did not suggest such a thing please reread. But to expand on it, the subject itself does not necessarily have to hold interest but something must interest the student to learn it. A student could be interested in learning to stay out of trouble at home or to stay out of the principal's office, or to better said students chances at university. In the case of a lack of parental support to encourage learning, a personal desire to keep admins out of my hair, and in the hope of inspiring somebody in my subject I choose to be the one to try to make my lessons/being in my class interesting. Besides, if my subject did not interest me I wouldn't be teaching it.

quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:

If you don't make what you teach interesting you are not really teaching.

Ermmm...

... I hate to do this, I'd much rather identify a counter-argument but ...

...isn't that just obviously wrong?

Haven't we all been successfully taught boring stuff at some point in our lives? We can certainly learn boring things.

Again not exactly what I said. Please address the point. By the way we learn boring things because there is an interest for us to have learned said boring thing.

quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
You are right at least to a degree. I should have said enthusiasm was part of what made learning possible for me. Remember I am talking about me not the masses. Most people don't have parents who consider an A as average.

Surely pressure at home would make the teacher's emotional state less, not more, important to your motivation?
And yet.


quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
I read in both posts a theme of teaching or not teaching creativity and perhaps other thinking skills.

Is this meant to be your explanation of how Pata's post made sense?

And if so are you really claiming that Pata communicates by following the theme of posts rather than the meaning?

Remember this is a discussion not necessarily an argument. In discussions sometimes themes are followed instead of meanings.

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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown

Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
By the way we learn boring things because there is an interest for us to have learned said boring thing.

Indeed, but that really isn't what you said the first time around. You said that teachers have to make what they teach (i.e. the subject) interesting, which doesn't mean the same thing as making the students interested in learning it.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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markprice81
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quote:
Originally posted by PhilA:
quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:

Last time I looked we were finding it pretty hard to establish what leo and Phil do in their classrooms ("theologising", anybody?). Yet somehow you have not only established this to your satisfaction but have decided which students it's good for.

I have explained some of what I do (quite polemically I'll agree) in the classroom. Would you like full schemes of work and lesson plans?

You obviously disagree with the methods I use to teach and with what I do, but to say that I haven't said what I do is a lie.

Having read your descriptions, the impression I get of your lessons is that they are very similar to this.
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mdijon
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Whereas presumably you'd prefer something like this as the model.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Barnabas62
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I think the term "boring", or as I hear it used often these days "boring, boring", often says more about either the teacher or the pupils or both than it does about the subject being taught.

And that's a major issue in this long discussion. Learning and teaching can be hard work, particularly if a pupil is ignorant - and either doesn't know that, or, worse, doesn't care.

[ 23. July 2010, 13:28: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
How do you define a 'bad' pupil. Most teachers observe that when you suspend one disruptive pupil, another takes his/her place - a sort of group dynamic.

I think there's a bit of a difference between the way classes where there is a lot of low level disruption often have a change of ringleader, and what happens when you permanently exclude a child who is a continual problem.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The distance matters. researchers such as Goldman, on Religious Development, Kohlberg on moral development, Fowler on spiritual development and Piaget on cognitive development tend to use something to an eight-level-scale and argue that people, of any age, can only understand something that is two stages further on than their current stage.

Now who's behind the times?

Does anyone still believe this stuff?

Yes. It is certainly used as a tool for RE teachers, for assessment levels and by clergy, especially in spiritual direction.
I think that's just a further point against what goes on in RE lessons as opposed to a point in favour of brinbging back Piaget, Kohlberg et al.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
The content is not incidental, it just is not the prime aim of education.

I don't know about it being the prime aim, but it is often essential. You can't have an education system that is unconcerned about what people know.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

I teach children how to learn. And, just as importantly, I motivate them to want to learn and to enjoy it.

I'm afraid children already know how to learn.

As for motivation, well there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not an alternative to content. There's no point motivating them to learn if it's at the price of the opportunity to learn.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

I detested school because the teachers thought that learning = memorising content. I can't learn by rote and was therefore made to feel utterly stupid.

This really is the strawman that will not die.

Again, nobody here is arguing for learning by rote.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

There are many more things we can learn than facts and figures, thankfully - and, these days, the facts and figures are at our fingertips anyway.

Unfortunately most of us think with our brains not our fingertips.

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oldandrew
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# 11546

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
My school was pretty bad on discipline, and the teahcing was a mixture of teaching methods. I'm not sure that the thinking skills vs content axis of disagreement necessarily determines the stand taken on discipline, or the degree of autonomy to determine one's own education.

There's some overlap between progressive teaching methods and an anti-authoritarian attitude to discipline.

That said, the stuff about what should happen in lessons so far has been so vague and contradictory that I'd hesitate to label anybody as clearly advocating "progressive teaching methods" but some of the arguments here have been in that direction.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think that teaching thinking skills is not simply about trying to engage interest. It is also likely to be hard work, and not the first choice activity of many 13 year olds. There's no reason why it can't be a goal-driven activity with a syllabus to work through.

You're talking as if you have previously identified a clear and coherent notion of thinking skills.

Just to remind you, you haven't.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

My son is like me - a creative, intuitive, lateral thinker.

Did he get your modesty too?
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

His school said he wasn't capable of going to university and they discouraged him.


When was this and at what type of school? It's hard to imagine this nowadays.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

He was determined and has just graduated with a BEng with prize for Best Student in the whole faculty. He has a way of 'seeing' inside machines and problem solving which many others don't.

We both learn by doing, not by reading up - there is nothing wrong with that.

People are all different and should not be labelled as unintelligent just because they don't think and learn conventionally.

You appear to be confusing differences in ability with differences in how people learn.

People generally don't differ much in how they learn. It is far more likely your son is good at engineering, rather than he has some kind of special learning style that engineering has somehow tapped into.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
PS - of COURSE they need to learn to read, write and add up!

That is my whole focus now as specialist SpLD teacher. But your assumption that intelligence is fixed and static is way off the mark. Self esteem is a huge issue - as soon as you show children they really can learn, they do.

My son is not an exception at all. Many, many children are constantly underrated by our system - I see it happeing every day - especially with children who have ADHD.

Oh for pity's sake.

Our current system is built on encouraging the least able and including them in things that they can't possibly benefit from and also lying to them and their parents about how they are doing. In a system where you can win prizes for just turning up, and where you can get exam marks for writing "fuck off!" on the exam paper then it is hard to identify a problem of underrating.

As for self-esteem being a huge issue, I hope you are talking about high self-esteem. There is a big, big problem of the least able being unaware of their disadvantages and therefore not motivated to improve. I fail to see how this would fit in with your talk of children being "underrated by our system". One of the biggest problem in our system is that it seem to encourage unrealistically high self-esteem.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

It's interesting that the teachers who want to put children in boxes seem to have one dimentional learning styles themselves, so they expect children to have this way of learning.

There is no such thing as a learning style.

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by PhilA:
quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
I'm not convinced it is a coherent concept given that religion is, by its very nature, applied.)

What do you mean by applied?

I assume you know a bit about Islam; a few key teachings, a bit of history about Muhammad (p.b.u.h) maybe the 5 pillars and what p.b.u.h means. Would you say that you applied that?

No.

I was just pointing out that I can't see a difference between learning about a religion and learning how its followers apply it to their lives. If you aren't learning about the latter you aren't really learning about the former.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:


Our current system is built on encouraging the least able and including them in things that they can't possibly benefit from and also lying to them and their parents about how they are doing. In a system where you can win prizes for just turning up, and where you can get exam marks for writing "fuck off!" on the exam paper then it is hard to identify a problem of underrating.


I wonder why they feel like writing 'fuck off' on their exam papers?

I know I did. I simply truanted most of high school due to the constant put downs by teachers. I am dyslexic but treated as lazy. Fact is I put in more effort to get the same results.

My other son also has ADHD and has been living in Heidelberg this year, teaching English - having completed his Masters in Ecology. He hopes to undertake research for Heidelberg university. He was hugely underestimated by his teachers at primary school - not so bad in high school.

Inclusion matters - and works when the teachers have an inclusive attitude, which teaches the rest of the class that conformity is not king. We are all different.

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
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quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

It's interesting that the teachers who want to put children in boxes seem to have one dimentional learning styles themselves, so they expect children to have this way of learning.

There is no such thing as a learning style.
Our learning style is the way we most easily process information.

I process information visually, which is probably why I'm an artist.

I struggle with auditory processing and these days use a voice recorder in lectures to be sure I haven't missed things - as I invariably have.

(I'm studying for an MA is SpLD)

[Smile]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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oldandrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I wonder why they feel like writing 'fuck off' on their exam papers?


Original sin?
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

I know I did. I simply truanted most of high school due to the constant put downs by teachers. I am dyslexic but treated as lazy. Fact is I put in more effort to get the same results.

My other son also has ADHD and has been living in Heidelberg this year, teaching English - having completed his Masters in Ecology. He hopes to undertake research for Heidelberg university. He was hugely underestimated by his teachers at primary school - not so bad in high school.

I can't help but notice that your examples of this problem seem to come from your own life and that of your son. I suppose that makes it very relevant to you, but I have to say not knowing your son, and not knowing you, but having taught for years in a system where the exact opposite problem exists makes it very difficult for me to be convinced.

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

Inclusion matters - and works when the teachers have an inclusive attitude, which teaches the rest of the class that conformity is not king. We are all different.

Sorry? You are asking the teacher to teach the class to conform to an idea of not conforming?

Can you see the problem with that?

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