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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The Ambiguity of Fornication
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Let me suggest that the crucial question to ask is, what happens when nature takes its course and the woman becomes pregnant? If the couple were expecting this to happen and greet it joyfully or at least take it in stride, and the man commits himself to the support of the woman and the child, then I see no reason to regard them as not being married, regardless of external, public ceremony.
It's rather surprising how little attention the matter of what about the kid(s) has received in this thread. It is a terrible thing when a mother and child are abandoned by the father and left without support: terrible for them, and often terrible for their neighbors as well. Sexual morality exists primarily to prevent this situation. Everything else is a minor distraction by comparison.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Marriage is advised for those who 'cannot control themselves".
No it isn't. Paul said it was "better to marry than to burn".
Paul argues; he doesn't just string pearls of wisdom together. The verse says, quote:
But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
The phrase "exercise self-control" comes from the Greek ἐγκρατεύομαι (egkrateuomai) as is unequivocal. If a person cannot exercise self control, they should marry. The phrase translated as "burn with passion", contrary to what you say is a perfectly good translation. Here's the entry from Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.) for each usage in the NT.
πυρόομαι (pyroomai), πυρόω (pyroō): vb.; ≡ Str 4448; TDNT 6.948—1. LN 14.63 (dep.) be on fire (2Pe 3:12; Eph 6:16+); 2. LN 25.229 (dep.) be greatly worried, burn with distress (2Co 11:29+); 3. LN 25.31 (dep.) be sexually aroused, burn inwardly with passion (1Co 7:9+); 4. LN 79.72 make fiery hot (Rev 1:15; 3:18+)
Also, notice that word for in the text? That means that the former clause is the logical ground of the second clause. So the meaning of the text is this: if they [unmarried people & widows] cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. Because it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Marriage is the appropriate course of action for unmarried people and widows who cannot control their sexual desire. And, if they are able to control their desire then singleness is encouraged.
[ 03. December 2010, 18:00: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
It's rather surprising how little attention the matter of what about the kid(s) has received in this thread. It is a terrible thing when a mother and child are abandoned by the father and left without support: terrible for them, and often terrible for their neighbors as well. Sexual morality exists primarily to prevent this situation. Everything else is a minor distraction by comparison.
The Book of Common Prayer(discussed earlier in the thread) cited procreation as one of the chief purposes of marriage, as does Anglican liturgy today. Could it be that ecclesiastical ministry in terms of the solemnization of marriage performs a primarily didactic function inasmuch as it publicly proclaims and thereby creates a robust and biblical theological understanding of marriage as the context of the making of a vow and covenant between tow people and God?
[ 03. December 2010, 18:08: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
I should be making cookies for the schoolkids' Walk Through Christmas so I haven't time to read all posts.
So someone's probably said it...
Recently looked at a friend's photos of family/grandchildren. Son and DiL had each been married three times and had children at each stage. What a mess! Give me a faithful partnership any time. It wouldn't do for CallmeNumpty but if they're not 'believers'?
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
That's a very sad story and I'm sorry to have heard it. However, your Son and Daughter in law's moral failures are no reason to write marriage off in favour of monogamous co-habitation.
Christian marriage, properly understood, is the antidote to infidelity because it is a parable of the permanent relationship between Christ and the Church. The sad truth is that many divorces (not necessarily the ones you mention) can be traced back to an inadequate theology of marriage and, as you rightly point out, an absence of faith. In other words, there is no inward and spiritual grace to which the outward and visible practicalities of marriage can testify.
[ 04. December 2010, 08:36: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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ByHisBlood
Shipmate
# 16018
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Posted
Anselmina- quote:
But if God only made the original man in his own image, and the Fall, cancelled that image, then what part of the original man was not in God's image which permitted the disobedience in the first place? Or is God an imperfect template for the image, which permits the possibility of disobedience and sin?
Well that's an excellent question(s) and one that I've not seen before in the 40 odd years of my Christian life, so first of all thanks for asking it - although I note there are a cluster of them!
Ok, we know from 1 Thess 5v23 that man is Spirit, Soul and Body. We also know from John 4v24 that "God is Spirit.." so therefore we can conclude that the original man - Adam - was made with a spirit that could interact fully with His Creator (as much as his created mind would allow) and that the parts that were not like God were His soul and body, this make him human in nature and God's attributes make Him Divine by nature.
Now onto your suggested imperfection and the make up of man - man was created with the ability to choose and you'll recall the phrase that "God is Love". You will also know that love involves choice, if the most attractive boy/ girl in our high school were attracted to us, we were extremely fortunate (maybe), yet the reality is that they got to choose too ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
So God, despite being Almighty, would have not benefited from programming us to love Him, that love would have been as worthless a love as us hypnotizing that attractive schoolmate and forcing them to live the rest of their lives with us.
So God, being a God that not only is love but seeks our GENUINE love too, had to make us as people who could choose. Our first generation made their choice and the rest is history as they say, we all DIED IN ADAM. But God wasn't finished with us 'dead' creatures, and this coming season and plan - predicted as early as Genesis 3v15 - was the start of His loving response to our situation, of course as far as we go and many others, we may not be willing to admit we do need His ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him" - Romans 5:9
Posts: 220 | Registered: Nov 2010
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ByHisBlood
Shipmate
# 16018
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Posted
Sorry, wrong thread and the 34 nano-second edit time beat me too ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him" - Romans 5:9
Posts: 220 | Registered: Nov 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Christian marriage, properly understood, is the antidote to infidelity because it is a parable of the permanent relationship between Christ and the Church.
IIRC, the relationship between Christ and the Church is a parable from marriage.
Christ is like the groom, the Church like the bride - so we can understand a spiritual truth from an earthly one. To turn the parable around is bad theology. Not that it stops anyone.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ByHisBlood:
Sorry, wrong thread and the 34 nano-second edit time beat me too
Never mind! I appreciate the answer which I'll comment on, on the other thread ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Christian marriage, properly understood, is the antidote to infidelity because it is a parable of the permanent relationship between Christ and the Church.
IIRC, the relationship between Christ and the Church is a parable from marriage.
No, you're wrong. It's t'other way around. Read Ephesians 5.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
No, you're wrong. It's t'other way around. Read Ephesians 5.
I have (again). I still think you're wrong.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Marriage is a μυστήριον (mystērion) meaning a mystery. Why? Because it reveals eternal truth. Marriage doesn't create the relationship between Christ and the church, neither is it simply a convenient metaphor for the relationship between Christ and the Church. No, marriage is patterned after eternal truth and is, therefore, as mystery, a proclamation of something greater than itself.
Marriage is a momentary parable of eternal permanence designed from eternity by God as a revelation of his plan of salvation. Marriages exists because God planned salvation in the way that God planned salvation, not as an Apostolic stumble-upon.
If Paul was teaching about salvation in Ephesians 5 and simply used marriage as a metaphor, what you are saying might hold water. But he isn't. Ephesians 5 is written to married people about their marriages and Christ and the church is presented to them as the pattern for marriage. Christian marriage should be a certain way precisely because the relationship between Christ and the church really is a certain way.
[ 04. December 2010, 23:42: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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