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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The Nature of Hell
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Because, goperryrevs, despite your claim that most here are not predestinarian, not damnationist ... a significant number OBVIOUSLY are, even those who don't think they are but nonetheless have an imparsimonious definition of omniscience.
Glad you're not.
Delighted.
Praise God.
As long as there's a WHIFF of that brimstone stench emanating from Hell here, it needs ventilating.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
Here's the best description of Hell I've heard. There are essentially three parts. In part one, people are being boiled in oil. Those are Jews who ate pork. In the second are people being mercilessly whipped by demons. The offense: Hindus who ate beef. In the deepest, darkest part of Hell are those who are being whipped while being boiled. Those are Anglicans who ate their salads with dinner forks.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I don't have to comment IngoB - Jesus has, twice.
I was unable to find these scripture passages on my own when you challenged me, because they do not support universalism. I was simply blind to them, because I was trying to find two sayings of Jesus that would support your case - and couldn't. Now that I know what verses you meant, I'm at a loss why you think they mean what you apparently think they mean. Heck, in one of these contexts, Jesus even explicitly damns Capernaum (Matt 11:23). Note the strict opposition to heaven: whatever one may say about the meaning of "hades", it clearly means at least "not heaven" here. For once, it does not really matter what one is committed to in one's exegesis. There simply is no reasonable way to derive universalism from these verses. You rather have to strain to maintain universalism against them. (And yes, I did read till Matt 11:25. You are not a babe either, Martin.)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Do I know where Hell is?
Hell is in, "Hello"
Heaven is in, "Goodbye forever,
it's time for me to go."
--Lerner & Lowe
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Neither am I a universalist and never have been IngoB. How could I be ? Damnation is as real as it gets.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Neither am I a universalist and never have been IngoB. How could I be ? Damnation is as real as it gets.
OK, I must have gotten confused somewhere down the line. Sorry about that. So your point is merely "God does not determine/know who will end up in hell"? But you would agree that there is a non-zero likelihood that some sapient being may end in something that one could reasonably consider as a variant of "classical Christian" hell? (Not necessarily Dante's hell, but not just some form of purgatory or annihilation either.)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
As long as there's a WHIFF of that brimstone stench emanating from Hell here, it needs ventilating.
Thanks for clearing that up. What I was struggling with was that you don't always say who you're aiming your comments at, and the comment in question appeared to be a general one addressed to everyone on the thread.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
MOST gracious of you IngoB. The confusion sown will have been mine. Partially deliberately I must confess, as you know.
The apology is therefore mine.
And of COURSE as a [neo-]orthodox[arian], I HAVE to bow the knee to the dread possibility of reprobation which Satan shows NO signs of caring less about as he heads toward the Lake of Fire from the Abyss.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And goperryrevs, damn your goggly eyes man for your graciousness too.
It shall not go unpunished.
You're absolutely right I do set about me with my scatter gun, it's all part of my charm offensive ... or is it offensive charm ? The target is ALWAYS damnationism, the Omen child of predestinarianism, the grandchild of the singular (i.e. meaninglessly imparsimonious) definition of omniscience as God HAVING to know everything from one end of eternity to the other.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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redderfreak
Shipmate
# 15191
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Posted
I'm with those on here who believe that hell is the rubbish tip of oblivion.
I don't think we fully understand the criterion for separating the sheep from the goats at the last judgement. I think it's something to do with how we personally in our inner being at the deepest emotional and intellectual level relate to Jesus when we meet him.
I don't worry about people not having a chance if they don't hear the good news here on earth in these three or four dimensions. Jesus didn't appear to worry about it unduly so I'm not going to either.
But like CS Lewis I believe in something far better than the best we experience in this life, as Puddleglum said he did while visiting the underworld in the book 'The Silver Chair', when people there said they were mad to believe in anything better above them.
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You know I just couldn't make it by myself, I'm a little too blind to see
Posts: 287 | From: Exeter | Registered: Sep 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Apparently few people have been to hell and come back to talk about it. The Jesus story is the one that comes to mind: "descended into hell". But there are no observations of what it's like.
I've had some pretty trying experiences in my life. Some terrible ones actually, that caused a year or more of very poor sleep, constant worry, impacts on health. In hindsight, I though that perhaps this was a faint glimpse of the horror of what hell might be like. But I don't know. Just as I don't know that faintest but wondrous times when I've felt that I'm at one of those "thin places" where the boundary between earth and heaven is pierced and time has stood still etc, is but a dim glimpse of what heaven and eternity might be like. -- I take heaven and hell as states of being, not anything resembling anything physically of earth. The earlier poster about CS Lewis' 'The Great Divorce' has directed to something I'd recommend to everyone about this.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
no_prophet, would we wish the hell of this life on any one in the next ? Could we be happy knowing any one was in it, experiencing it ? The only theodicy for that would be if they were offered parole every now and again.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Our vicar preached a sermon recently in which he said he believed in heaven but not in hell. It set off quite a discussion in the choir vestry afterwards. Is it possible to have one without the other?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Not orthodoxly, no. He is denying Christ.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Our vicar preached a sermon recently in which he said he believed in heaven but not in hell. It set off quite a discussion in the choir vestry afterwards. Is it possible to have one without the other?
Yes, sort of. When I was in elementary school we were threatened with the punishment of flunking the year and having to repeat it if we didn't do our homework.
Was flunking someone possible? YES! (They didn't do social promotions back then.) Did anyone flunk a whole year of sixth grade? NO! The whole system was geared to identify kids who were having problems and help them achieve the minimum needed to pass. (1950s, a somewhat affluent area, we had all been together since kindergarten.)
Hell (flunking a grade, losing all your friends because they'd move ahead without you) was a real possibility, but no one suffered it because the threat of hell scared us into doing the things that we ourselves would benefit from - learn some history and English and arithmetic, and avoid flunking the grade.
One hopes the kids learn to love learning so they have positive internal motivation to do more than the minimum needed to avoid flunking, but even just that minimum will benefit them long term in ways other than just not flunking a grade. (And if someone did have to repeat a grade, that would be to benefit them, not to punish them.)
Perhaps for some fear of hell serves as the basic motivation to live honestly? One hopes they'll become internally motivated to seek to know and enjoy God, but at least they are learning a lifestyle that is consistent with God's values? Was there a time when people in general took seriously that their hand was on as Bible when they swore to tell the truth, felt like they were lying to God and would suffer consequences if they didn't tell the truth?
Of course, for a threat of hell to result in people living according to God's values depends the church accurately teaching what lifestyle reflects God's values. That's been questionable in many ways over the centuries. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Our vicar preached a sermon recently in which he said he believed in heaven but not in hell. It set off quite a discussion in the choir vestry afterwards. Is it possible to have one without the other?
Depends what he means by both those words. I believe in both Heaven and Hell, but what I mean by them is probably radically different to their 'traditional' (read medieval) interpretations. So, in one sense, I don't believe in either of them.
It's like that classic old evangelism technique:
A: "I don't believe in God"
B: "What's the God like that you don't believe in?"
A: describes mean and nasty judgemental God who doesn't care about people
B: "I don't believe in that God either. Let me tell you about the God I do believe in (and then we can all pray the sinners' prayer together)."
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I believe in both Heaven and Hell, but what I mean by them is probably radically different to their 'traditional' (read medieval) interpretations. So, in one sense, I don't believe in either of them.
I like that. That's what I think.
The key question, in my mind, is about what happiness and unhappiness are. If happiness is possible after death, is unhappiness possible? Are there different degrees of happiness, or is all happiness the same? And if these things exist, what are their causes? Is happiness simplyt bestowed? Or must it be received?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Are there different degrees of happiness, or is all happiness the same?
Is a child who gets to eat a McDonald's Happy Meal happy with that food? Is an adult served the finest chef-cooked meal happy with that meal? The adult's hunger could have been satisfied with a Happy Meal. (And the child probably prefers the Happy Meal to the lobster with secret sauce on a bed of specially grown greens and dried fruit bits - or whatever chefs serve.)
Interesting question whether the child is just as happy with his happy meal as the adult with what we call a "better meal" than hamburger and french fries.
Is the child's 100% happiness less than the adult's 100% percent happiness the way a 100% full pint jar is less than a 100% full quart jar? One thing God keeps trying to do with me is get me to see that there's more than I have yet imagined, that I tend to settle for too little, I may feel fully happy but if I would let God stretch me my fully happy state would be at a greater level of happiness.
Perhaps in heaven we are all fully happy, but those more in tune with God have larger fully happiness than those whose are fully happy with having pursued the minimum to get there. (If I may use place language to describe heaven.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Perhaps in heaven we are all fully happy, but those more in tune with God have larger fully happiness than those whose are fully happy with having pursued the minimum to get there.
I think that's a great analogy that expresses really well how I think about heaven too - thanks.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Thanks! Me too.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Every emotion, feeling we have before the resurrection is obvious or implicit therefore after.
From bliss to dread. Only the latter doesn't last.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
There is no worse act possible than torturing someone for eternity or having them tortured for eternity. Other than condemning two people... And if God is omnipotent then God both created hell and decides who gets condemned there. Which means that everyone suffering in Hell is due to an act of God. Thus making God not morally fit to lick shit of Adolf Hitler's boots.
If Hell is a place you can simply leave, that's another issue. But Hell as a place of eternal suffering makes God completely contemptable and the being worthy of suffering eternally in hell.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Isn't Judeao/Christian faith, at its very heart, all about relationship?
From the story of Adam and Eve right through to those lovely words in Revelation about 'the dwelling of God is with men, they shall be his people and he shall be their God', the whole of salvation story is about restoring the closeness of fellowship that was lost. The consequence of that loss of fellowship was spelled out in the garden - the knowledge (intimate aquaintance) of good and evil and the subsequent 'essential' experience of eternal death.
The penalty for disobedience was that mankind would 'become like us' - that means that we would take on that dreadful experience of death that is known by God as part of his nature. We were never designed to know eternal death but by our Fall, that death has become an indelible part of what it means to be human.
God knows what eternal death is because Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world and he lives 'though ever crucified'.
So, iuf a man or woman dies without the restoration of fellowship with God that is gained by grace through faith in Christ, then he/she dies in a state of continued eternal death. If however that fellowship is restored and the atonement is personalised, then eternal death loses its 'sting' and power and the Christian has passed from death to life.
That is what heaven and hell means.
Heaven is not some pagan place of happiness - it's to be 'with Christ, which is far better'.
Hell is the opposite. It's a place with no relationship, no fellowship, no awareness of God. In fact, as the story of Adam and Eve reveals, it's a place of hiding away, a place of shame, a place of recrimination and blame. It's a place where we don't even want God to come to. It's a place where the experience of death is eternal - the opposite to heaven where the experience of life is eternal.
All mankind will live forever - death and life in eternity is about quality and content. Those who die in their sins do not lose their consciousness, they live forever with an axperience of death.
Those who know Christ will continue to know him for ever. It is not a question of saying the sinner's prayer and believing the right things. Those won't get you into heaven. What allows you the 'place prepared for you' 'in my Father's house' is your intimate knowledge of Christ in this mortal life.
If you don't know him in this life, they why would you know him in the next?
Nore to the point, why would he know you?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No one suffers endlessly.
Or Justinian would be right.
And Mudfrog.
That's that orthodox.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Heaven is not some pagan place of happiness - it's to be 'with Christ, which is far better'.
Hell is the opposite. It's a place with no relationship, no fellowship, no awareness of God. In fact, as the story of Adam and Eve reveals, it's a place of hiding away, a place of shame, a place of recrimination and blame. It's a place where we don't even want God to come to. It's a place where the experience of death is eternal - the opposite to heaven where the experience of life is eternal.
A & E were hiding from God while still in the Garden. Which just points to your theme, it's about relationship, not about place.
Which mean to the extent anyone wants to regard heaven as a place, all are welcome but for some it is heaven and for some hell. Just like two people at a party, one is having a great time, one is miserable, same party different personality. Everyone welcome, but will YOU (will *I*) enjoy it? Not if I'm letting myself pursue values inconsistent with God's values, developing a personality that won't enjoy God's party. That thought regularly sobers me.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Heaven is not some pagan place of happiness - it's to be 'with Christ, which is far better'.
Hell is the opposite. It's a place with no relationship, no fellowship, no awareness of God. In fact, as the story of Adam and Eve reveals, it's a place of hiding away, a place of shame, a place of recrimination and blame. It's a place where we don't even want God to come to. It's a place where the experience of death is eternal - the opposite to heaven where the experience of life is eternal.
A & E were hiding from God while still in the Garden. Which just points to your theme, it's about relationship, not about place.
Which mean to the extent anyone wants to regard heaven as a place, all are welcome but for some it is heaven and for some hell. Just like two people at a party, one is having a great time, one is miserable, same party different personality. Everyone welcome, but will YOU (will *I*) enjoy it? Not if I'm letting myself pursue values inconsistent with God's values, developing a personality that won't enjoy God's party. That thought regularly sobers me.
No, the point is that Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden and shut out of the presence of God. They were not made to stay in the Garden and put up with God being around whether they enjoyed it or not.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Nore to the point, why would he know you?
Because he's the omniscient God who knows and loves ALL. He is perfect love and love " keeps no record of wrongs." (1 Cor 13.5)
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
No, the point is that Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden and shut out of the presence of God. They were not made to stay in the Garden and put up with God being around whether they enjoyed it or not.
They were not enjoying it, so they were no worse off out of the garden than in it. Being out allowed them more of the separation from God they wanted - remember when God spoke to all Israel from the mountain and the people said "no, we don't want to hear God directly, let God talk to Moses not to us." A&E didn't want to encounter God, they hid from God, Moses people didn't want to encounter God, proving it wasn't unique to A&E but characteristic of fallen humankind.
Ultimately God gives us what we most want, even if that want is separation from God.
Being removed from the Garden was for A & E's own benefit, that blocked them from ability to eat of the tree of life and be stuck forever in that separated status.
Many a church has taught a punitive God who kicked A&E out of the Garden as punishment. Many a church has preached the wrong God. I don't honor a punitive God. In real life there is no such God.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Nore to the point, why would he know you?
Because he's the omniscient God who knows and loves ALL. He is perfect love and love " keeps no record of wrongs." (1 Cor 13.5)
Indeed - what a wonderful Gospel! That the love of Christ, applied to and experienced in the heart of the pentitent, cancels all wrongs.
Oh, but the agony of the heart of Jesus when his love is refused and rejected and he has to turn away those who never knew the Saviour's love. On that day he will say to those whose hearts were far from him, even though they knew his name, 'Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
It sums it up perfectly - and tragically - that heaven is a place of eternal relationship with Jesus. If there is no relationship here, then there will be no relationship there.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nope.
The love of Christ cancels all wrongs period.
THAT'S orthodox. What you say isn't. As above. That's NOT orthodox.
[ 25. November 2010, 20:50: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Nope.
The love of Christ cancels all wrongs period.
THAT'S orthodox. What you say isn't. As above. That's NOT orthodox.
So what place belief, faith, repentance and love for God?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What have they got to do with His complete atonement?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
What have they got to do with His complete atonement?
The atonement has to be received. It's not automatic.
Jesus said "Whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Nope.
The love of Christ cancels all wrongs period.
THAT'S orthodox. What you say isn't. As above. That's NOT orthodox.
So what place belief, faith, repentance and love for God?
Belief, faith, repentance and love are all very important, but they're not connected to the cancelling of our sins. When Jesus did his stuff, he wiped out humanity's sins (1 John 2v2). That shit's already dealt with.
Of course, whether we accept that forgiveness offered to us is another matter, but God's part of the deal is done. The issue for those people that don't accept isn't that they're still 'sinners'. Jesus made the 'sinner' part irrelevant. It's that they don't want the reconciliation offered. It's their choice, which God honours. Now, you seem to believe that after death in this life, God's reconciliation offer is withdrawn. I find little in scripture to suggest that. I believe that offer will stand forever, and that ultimately all will recognise and accept it. The question for each of us is whether it'll be the easy way, or the hard way.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Given a choice between you and Mudfrog goperreyrevs, it's you.
Although orthodoxly, it ain't.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Where in scripture is the clear teaching that there is opportunity to repent after death?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Where in scripture is the clear teaching that there is opportunity to repent after death?
Where in scripture is there clear teaching that there isn't?
It's a fairly straightforward extraction from a number of things, God's character as revealed in scripture, the many teachings that ultimately all things will be reconciled, and that they aren't now. The most straightforward conclusion is that there will be some more reconciling to do in the age to come.
I could quote a like that one in Peter about Jesus preaching the gospel to those already dead, but I'm not sure prooftexting is always ideal. The thing that changed my mind on this was the whole thrust of scripture, and the fact that pre-Augustine it was a more than acceptable doctrine.
Scripture doesn't say much about how things will ultimately be in the new heavens and new earth, but it does say that every tear will be wiped away, and that the world is being reconciled to God through Christ. A future in which half my friends and family are being eternally tortured does not fit with that picture.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Where in scripture is the clear teaching that there is opportunity to repent after death?
Where in scripture is there clear teaching that there isn't?
You misunderstand the principle. In MY circumscribing the faith, all it takes is a lack of evidence to the contrary. In YOUR circumscribing the faith, it is required that you have positive evidence.
I think the chief argument against posthumous conversion is Hebrews 9:27:
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Indeed. And in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, there was no opportunity for the rich man to repent, he merely asked for someone to warn his kids to repent before they died.
You'd think this parable was a very poor choice by Jesus if he believed you could repent after death.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
There is absolutely no indication in the parable that the man wanted to repent. First thing we hear about him is he wants Abraham to boss the poor guy around. Certainly no signs of repentence. Hergo I don't see a way to deduct your conclusion.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Further lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. "Argument from silence" is nearly always fallacious logically-wise-speaking. It may be that Jesus didn't mention it because he took it as read that his hearers would know about it and take the rich man's words as proof that he had rejected the chance. Without any indication one way or the other, using this passage to draw definite conclusions is just eisegesis.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's not a parable.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It's not a parable.
Doesn't change my argument.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
My point is that we're all arguing from silence. Scripture doesn't spell out exactly what will happen, and uses a lot of different imagery and metaphor to make its points. Yes, Jesus and the apostles speak of judgement, but why should it be that judgement ends the possibility for repentance? Surely judgement is likely to bring repentance? For a criminal, the judgment and sentence can be the first step in bringing him to a point of recognition of his wrongdoing and a desire for rehabilitation.
My own journey on this theology began with a view very similar to yours, Mudfrog. In the evangelical bubble which I was part of, as far as I could see, the only view I could possibly have was that God would send people who didn't believe in Jesus to Hell. Anything else just wasn't Christian. I didn't like believing this, and I remember so well a friend of mine asking me if I believed she would go to He'll when she died. I reluctantly told her, yes, if she didn't become a Christian, that was where she was going.
However, as my experience and horizons broadened, I started to look at what the Scriptures actually said, in particular the stuff about the second death in revelation. I could see that annihilationism made a lot more sense, not just ethically, but biblically too. I then, for the first time came across a well constructed apology for universalism. It surprised me because Universalism had always been a taboo and people who believed it denied the bible. But I could now see that the arguments were just as strong, if not stronger than the 'conventional' stuff I'd heard over the years. I started a thread here on the ship; the first thread I ever started, and listened to what people had to say.
Of the four views: Eternal Punishment, Annihilationism, the Orthodox view, and Universalism, I find the hope that all people will be reconciled to God to be the most convincing view, biblically, historically and morally. The view I find least convincing biblically, historically and morally is Eternal Punishment. It's not well supported in the Bible, it mainly begins with Augustine, and it's morally repulsive. The other two views have strong cases in my opinion too, and I can see why people come to those conclusions.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
mousethief, I'm confused. Are you arguing for or against repentance after death? I am arguing against it. Are we in opposition or agreement?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
For. What did I say that went the other way? I repent! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
Sorry for the double post, I promise I'll shut up in a minute!
Just on the subject of judgment, I think that scripture has some awkward points for you here as well, Mudfrog. The conventional view which you hold is that we are judged according to our faith in Jesus. However, when Scripture talks about judgement, it's usually about works. The sheep weren't judged righteous because they'd put their trust in Jesus. It was cause they'd done lots of good stuff. Almost all the reference to judgement in scripture are to do with our deeds. How do you square that with your view?
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Indeed not mousethief. You picked up Mudfrog's usage. No problem. You're right of course. This allegory has NOTHING to do with the reality of life after death.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Indeed not mousethief. You picked up Mudfrog's usage. No problem. You're right of course. This allegory has NOTHING to do with the reality of life after death.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this story that Jesus told is definitive teaching on the state of the dead, but I am suggesting that had there been opportunity for repentence after death then Jesus would surely have alluded to it in his teaching.
You know: "You have heard it said that you must repent before death otherwise you'll be in Torment for ever, but verily I say unto you, there is always a way to turn to the Father even as you stand before the throne of the Son of Man." - or something similar.
I would love to believe that God will open wide the gates of heaven and say, "O just come in".
But how do people 'get in' if there is no repentance and faith, no relationship with Christ?
And what about those who still, when faced with the judgment seat of Christ, still do not want to repent?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
And what about those who still, when faced with the judgment seat of Christ, still do not want to repent?
I don't like your language - but it's already been said further up the thread. Those who reject God's love, even when all barriers to it are down, would die, eternally.
This is my hope - otherwise I have been worshipping a cruel and sadistic God.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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