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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The Nature of Hell
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I would love to believe that God will open wide the gates of heaven and say, "O just come in".
But how do people 'get in' if there is no repentance and faith, no relationship with Christ?
And what about those who still, when faced with the judgment seat of Christ, still do not want to repent?
That's not how it works. People [i]only[i] get in if there is repentance and faith, and 'Hell' is the process that will bring some to repentance. Not through torture or punishment, but through discipline and revelation.
My view really isn't that different from the Orthodox view. For those that do not want to repent, they'll remain 'outside' the city, by choice. I just think that in the end they'll all swallow their pride, knock on the gates and be welcomed home.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
And what about those who still, when faced with the judgment seat of Christ, still do not want to repent?
I don't like your language - but it's already been said further up the thread. Those who reject God's love, even when all barriers to it are down, would die, eternally.
This is my hope - otherwise I have been worshipping a cruel and sadistic God.
What do you mean, you don't like my language?
judgment seat?
Repent?
You can't make up your own version of the Scriptures using only words you like.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Your language seems to come straight out of the book of Revelation.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Your language seems to come straight out of the book of Revelation.
...or even the Lord Jesus Christ.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye Boogie, that's orthodox, 'between' or off at a tangent from the two polar heterodoxies of Mudfrog's psychotic eternal torture and goperryrev's penitentiary for as long as it takes.
It won't take long, Judgement Day. Less than a lifetime perhaps. A few decades at most. To heal and educate and compensate every one who has ever lived. It will be completely fair. No effort will be spared to dissolve all human hearts.
But like you perhaps Boogie I see an internal statute of limitations in the human heart. In any created heart as Lucifer demonstrates. His heart hasn't melted yet in at least eons, millions of years, although he hasn't seen the most sublime day in the history of creation yet: Judgement. Even he may be awed, moved in to acceptance, surrender then.
The allegorical narrative implies not. But there are still silences that may be filled beyond wonder with impossibly yet more wasteful, outrageous, insulting grace and mercy and opportunity.
But once a person has been given every opportunity to embrace in return for being embraced but will not, they won't ever is the dread possibility. It has to be. That's free will for the FIRST and LAST time.
Being in outer darkness, wailing and gnashing your teeth ... how long ? Not that that is mentioned in the context of eternity. But of the reaction to judgement. Which gives us one of those silences beyond which there may STILL be utterly unmerited grace.
In the Resurrection the vast majority will be perfectly human. Edenic. Young, beautiful, sane, smart. Approaching a trillion if the unborn are included. An ocean of at least mentally average five year olds. Closer to newborns counting the unborn.
Mortal.
And the process of healing, bring to the point of decision will begin.
If at the end of that a person doesn't want to be loved, doesn't want to love, where will they live? How? In reservations like the 'uncivilized' in Brave New World? Policed to protect them from each other and themselves? Forever? Theoretically redeemable? Given enough experience? Hmmmmm.
Demons in the flesh? And what of Satan and his demons? Back in the pit of misery forever?
The kindness of God may include euthanasia for all such, human and angelic.
It orthodoxly looks like that.
But I certainly would not be surprised if Grace makes provisions that we in our most liberal, soft hearted yearnings baulk at!
Not a drop will be wasted.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Psychotic eternal torture? I think not.
Will there be flames in hell, will people literally be gnashing their teeth? No.
But will God be there? No. And even if he was the people there will hide from him.
The Gospels (forget Revelation) are full of warnings about being shut out, being in outer darkness etc. Why the warnings to repent NOW if there is ample opportunity afterwards? Why the Judgment when people are separated if there is no need to separate anyone?
I think, without using proof texts, that the tonme of the Gospels is definately, 'Now is the day of salvation'.
This is traditional, orthodox, catholic teaching for the last 2000 years. It'll take a lot more than what's been written here about the woolly, liberal and unscriptural 'all will have prizes' to convince most people that there is indeed a hell to be saved from before we face the Judgment at death.
[ 27. November 2010, 10:42: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
With or without using proof texts, it isn't.
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Love wins
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
Actually, almost all of that resonates with me Martin, an excellent post.
Perhaps the only difference is that I believe that God will be able to woo and discipline us all. But if for whatever reason there are some that he can't, then i'd go along with pretty much everything you said.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
With:
Matthew 10:15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
Matthew 11:20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
Without: Jesus saves.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
With:
Matthew 10:15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
Matthew 11:20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
Without: Jesus saves.
Are you actually trying to say that on the day of judgment it won't be so bad for Sodom and the people will be spared judgment?
Surely this is a figure of speech that simply means that whatever happens to these towns it will worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. Their judgment to hades wll seem like 'heaven' compared to what the towns that rejected Jesus - it'll be that bad!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Tha nature of Hell is our nature. Is what we bring to it. We need light.
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Love wins
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Actually, almost all of that resonates with me Martin, an excellent post.
Perhaps the only difference is that I believe that God will be able to woo and discipline us all. But if for whatever reason there are some that he can't, then i'd go along with pretty much everything you said.
I imagine some total psychopaths may be incapable of responding to love - but I don't know.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Mudfrog, your mistake is identifying "judgement" with "condemnation".
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Tha nature of Hell is our nature. Is what we bring to it. We need light.
The key point, I think, is that unhappiness is inherent in self-centered desires and behavior.
So hell is our nature because if left to our own tendencies people can often be a tad self-centered. But we can learn to care about others, and that is a much more rewarding way to live.
Light is about understanding what is what so that we will be caring and not merely pleasure-seeking.
The biblical imagery surrounding hell and heaven is about this difference.
A world of self-centered pleasure-seekers is hell. Heaven, by contrast, is a world full of people who actually care about what is kind and right.
The thing that happens after death that makes it different than this life is that in the space and time-free environment of the afterlife these two groups automatically cluster according to affinity.
Individuals then pursue their interests within these affinity groups just as they did during their life on earth. All are free to do as they wish. But the results, whether heavenly or hellish, are determined by the joy, or lack of it, that is inherent in what they love and therefore in what they do.
You would think that over time everyone would realize that self-centered desires don't lead to happy results. I think that this is one of the main questions that people have about hell, if they believe in it at all.
But I would tend to agree that few are going to believe in hell if they think that the cruel and gruesome biblical imagery surrounding it is meant to be taken literally.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Mudfrog, your mistake is identifying "judgement" with "condemnation".
Condemnation is indeed part of the judgment of those who don't know Christ.
Paul reminds us that there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Jesus said that those who do not believe are condemned already - judgment day merely confirms that those whose names are not written in the lamb's book of life will not enter Christ's Kingdom of Heaven.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
In that case Jesus is Damner not Saviour by two orders of magnitude.
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Love wins
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
In that case Jesus is Damner not Saviour by two orders of magnitude.
It is hard to get past the idea that if God is omnipotent how is He not the origin of both pleasure and pain? That makes Him both the damner and the savior.
But this makes no sense. Better that there be no God at all.
One way past it is to postulate that all suffering goes away. Of course this makes the Bible, and Christianity, false.
My opinion is that somehow the suffering is chosen and preferred. Is that so hard to imagine?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I find it really hard to comprehend a Christian faith that can ignore so much clear teaching of Scripture in order to construct a god of its own making.
What do you do with John 3 V 16, 17 and 18?
quote:
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I find it really hard to comprehend a Christian faith that can ignore so much clear teaching of Scripture in order to construct a god of its own making.
That seems a little harsh. You've just declared all universalists, all those who take an open mind on the fate of those who don't explicitly believe in Christ in this life, and all those who hold out hope for those who never heard of Him to be worshippers of a false god and therefore non-Christians.
In the same spirit (no capital S) I'm tempted to ask when your heretick™ sect is going to start obeying our Lord's command to share holy communion often in remembrance of him, and to baptise disciples in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But I won't ![[Biased]](wink.gif) .
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
In the same spirit (no capital S) I'm tempted to ask when your heretick™ sect is going to start obeying our Lord's command to share holy communion often in remembrance of him, and to baptise disciples in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But I won't .
You can ask if you like - I'm happy about it because we are part of the Church that does these things and all salvationists are perfectly entitles to receive communion from whichever church will not deny them access and to receive whichever baptism is right for them and/or their children. Our non-practice is not a rejection of either the practice or the doctrine of sacraments.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Psychotic eternal torture? I think not.
Will there be flames in hell, will people literally be gnashing their teeth? No.
But will God be there? No. And even if he was the people there will hide from him.
There will be flames in hell, Mudfrog, because God will be there. Remember Pentecost? The Spirit came down as tongues of flame. And in the OT, the people were led by the pillar of fire. Hell is fire: Our God is a consuming fire.
And he who emptied himself for our sake fills all, and there is no place where he is not. Check out Psalms -- even in Hell, God is there.
And for those who do not want to be in God's presence, there won't be any way to get away from him. There will be no place to hide. Adam and Eve thought they could hide, but God knew where they were. That might indeed be enough to cause someone to gnash his teeth, to wail, to cry.
quote:
The Gospels (forget Revelation) are full of warnings about being shut out, being in outer darkness etc. Why the warnings to repent NOW if there is ample opportunity afterwards?
Mudfrog, do you know anyone who has rescued an abused dog? The dog is brought from a terrible place to a good place, and the dog is still terrified, trembling, too fearful to eat, sleeping fitfully, snapping at the one who rescued it. The dog won't approach its rescuer if it can avoid it, so its mange is untreated, its injuries unhealed. And even so the dog would rather cower outside in the darkness than come in.
That's how we are, before we repent. And God doesn't want that. He wants to bring us in, to feed us, to heal us, to care for us. But he's not going to drag us in against our will. He's not going to add that terror to the terrors we've already gone through. He's going to wait for us, as long as it takes -- just as someone who is trying to care for and socialize an abused and abandoned dog will wait.
So why the warning to repent now? Why? Because God wants us inside, where he can care for us. He wants us in NOW, before our injuries and our illnesses become worse. He wants us to know that, if we come to him, we'll find comfort and food and healing and joy. If we stay way, we'll have none of that.
quote:
I think, without using proof texts, that the tonme of the Gospels is definately, 'Now is the day of salvation'.
Yes, of course.
quote:
This is traditional, orthodox, catholic teaching for the last 2000 years. It'll take a lot more than what's been written here about the woolly, liberal and unscriptural 'all will have prizes' to convince most people that there is indeed a hell to be saved from before we face the Judgment at death.
I think most people know the hell they need to be saved from. They carry it with them all the time. Like the Kingdom of Heaven, it is within us. I don't think we need to convince anyone of it.
What we need to convince them of is God's love.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I find it really hard to comprehend a Christian faith that can ignore so much clear teaching of Scripture in order to construct a god of its own making.
I agree.
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What do you do with John 3 V 16, 17 and 18?
It depends what Jesus was sent to do. I say that He was sent to bear witness to the truth, to bring light where there was darkness, to guide our feet into the way of peace. Everyone who is of the truth will hear His voice.
This means that all who love the truth, love God, and love their neighbor worldwide will be saved - whether they have ever heard of Jesus or not.
The reason is that "being saved" means to find happiness, and "being condemned" is about failing to find it - and the happiness of heaven in inherent in loving the truth, loving God, and loving the neighbor. Those who don't love these things simply won't have that happiness. And it is not "all-or-nothing" - some are happier, some less happy, according to the precise nature of their inner motivations.
"Believing in Jesus" is about hearing the truth and living by it so that it is in your heart.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
There is also the small matter of having ones sins forgiven through repenatnce and faith.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
Mudfrog, many of us have answered that question a number of times. You may not agree with those answers, but don't act as if we're ignoring those points by continuing to raise them, unless you have an answer to what's been said.
As for John 3:16-18, it is entirely consistent with what I've been saying, and mousethief, Martin, Boogie et al. What do you do with the fact that Jesus says he came to save the WORLD, not just 5-10% of the world (or whatever percentage are professing Christians)?
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
Oh, and Josephine, ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Mudfrog, many of us have answered that question a number of times. You may not agree with those answers, but don't act as if we're ignoring those points by continuing to raise them, unless you have an answer to what's been said.
As for John 3:16-18, it is entirely consistent with what I've been saying, and mousethief, Martin, Boogie et al. What do you do with the fact that Jesus says he came to save the WORLD, not just 5-10% of the world (or whatever percentage are professing Christians)?
#
I agree entirely.
Our Salvation Army doctrine states very clearly that 'We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has, by his suffering and death, made an atonemen t for the whole world, so that whoseoever will may be saved.'
Jesus was given for the world so that 'whoever
believes may be saved.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
There is also the small matter of having ones sins forgiven through repenatnce and faith.
The forgiveness of sins is about changing your ways. You can't change your ways unless you believe in changing them, and you also can't do it without faith in God (although many would disagree), that is, faith in Jesus.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
Ok, what about the bit that explicitly says that he didn't come to condemn the world? Because that's what you've told us he does.
I humbly suggest to you that people like me aren't ignoring the plain meaning of scripture, but that one's reading of scripture is very heavily influenced by one's prior worldview, much more than you might think. I fully understand why you believe what you believe, because I used to believe it myself. But since being persuaded that Eternal Punishment is not the only option for a Christian, I've been able to read scripture without that filter over everything. And, believe it or not, scripture still makes sense. Lots of bits actually make a lot more sense than they did before.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You tell Jesus Mudfrog, tell Him He's wrong. Tell Him He can't POSSIBLY be gracious to the foulest culture in Western myth.
You prove my point: YOU are the Nature of Hell.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
You tell Jesus Mudfrog, tell Him He's wrong. Tell Him He can't POSSIBLY be gracious to the foulest culture in Western myth.
You prove my point: YOU are the Nature of Hell.
What on earth are you talking about?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Josephine, that is a perfect illustration I will use it if I may.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Orlando098
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# 14930
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Jesus was given for the world so that 'whoever
believes may be saved.
I personally am quite dubious that our eternal fate depends entirely on hearing a particular story and believing it; it seems a strange way for the creator of the universe to have organised things
[ 28. November 2010, 07:06: Message edited by: Orlando098 ]
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
Mudfrog' assumption is that the text implies that whoever doesn't believe won't be saved. It doesn't say that. I'd suggest this is an example of reading one's worldview into the text.
If my doctor tells my that having an inoculation means that I won't get a disease, he's not saying I'll definitely get the disease if I don't have the inoculation. I'm just putting myself at more risk. (not the perfect analogy I know, but makes the point).
I think the loaded word is 'saved'. It now has a religious connotation that it wouldn't have had when Jesus used it.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Mudfrog' assumption is that the text implies that whoever doesn't believe won't be saved. It doesn't say that. I'd suggest this is an example of reading one's worldview into the text.
If my doctor tells my that having an inoculation means that I won't get a disease, he's not saying I'll definitely get the disease if I don't have the inoculation. I'm just putting myself at more risk. (not the perfect analogy I know, but makes the point).
I think the loaded word is 'saved'. It now has a religious connotation that it wouldn't have had when Jesus used it.
Ah, now this is the nub of the argument.
Jesus said that those who don't believe are condemned already.
It's not a question of choice from a neutral standpoint - choose Christ or don't choose Christ - the truth is we are born in sin, without a relationship with God. 'All have sinned and fall short lof the glory of God' and that is precisely why Jesus came and preac hed a Gospel of love, and repentance - it's why he 'came to seek and save that which was lost'.
We are condemned already - we have no choivce in the matter - it's original sin - and Jesus came to release us from this, to literally save us from that condemnation. But if we reject him, by choice we remain in that condemnation.
Freewill means that we have to choose to move from darkness to light - Freddy reminds us that we do it by grace. We call it prevenient grace, grace that leads us to the point of being able to choose - but also to reject him.
That's what grace is all about - it's freely given, liberally given (yes, it's Amazing!) and more people have received it than we would ever imagine, but it needs to be believed.
What shall we do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
It's the best news ever. But we need to believe or we remain in our sins.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Orlando098:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Jesus was given for the world so that 'whoever
believes may be saved.
I personally am quite dubious that our eternal fate depends entirely on hearing a particular story and believing it; it seems a strange way for the creator of the universe to have organised things
And how about the many millions who died long before the story was ever told?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
As soon as I posted that I was waiting for that reply, because yes, Jesus does say that those who don't believe in him stand condemned. The question is, will they remain condemned, and if they do, what are they condemned to? Does their sentence mean that they never have the opportunity for rehabilitation? The connection you've made is condemned=never to be saved. I don't make that connection.
That leaves aside the fact that the notion of believing in someone is a strange one, and what Jesus means by this in relation to salvation is worthy of a debate itself.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Mudfrog it is you who are condemned.
You are condemned to be outside the Kingdom.
Unsaved.
Condemned to justify the impotence of God. Condemned to condemn. And by asking what am I on about, condemned to be blind to your condemnation in condemnation.
Repent.
Turn.
While there is yet time.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
As soon as I posted that I was waiting for that reply, because yes, Jesus does say that those who don't believe in him stand condemned. The question is, will they remain condemned, and if they do, what are they condemned to? Does their sentence mean that they never have the opportunity for rehabilitation? The connection you've made is condemned=never to be saved. I don't make that connection.
That leaves aside the fact that the notion of believing in someone is a strange one, and what Jesus means by this in relation to salvation is worthy of a debate itself.
condemned = perish.
Now, it is orthodox belief that this perishing is an eternally conscious thing. It maybe, and I am prepared to think on this - that the perishing is eternal, as in one for all, but is not conscious.
I cannot see any teaching anywhere that says repentance can happen after death.
[ 28. November 2010, 11:02: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Mudfrog it is you who are condemned.
You are condemned to be outside the Kingdom.
Unsaved.
Condemned to justify the impotence of God. Condemned to condemn. And by asking what am I on about, condemned to be blind to your condemnation in condemnation.
Repent.
Turn.
While there is yet time.
yeah, whatever.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Not yet I see.
Ah well, that's what Jesus' outrageous grace in the Resurrection is for: you and those of Sodom and Gomorrah and Tyre and Sidon: The Damnation Army.
[ 28. November 2010, 11:46: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Not yet I see.
Ah well, that's what Jesus' outrageous grace in the Resurrection is for: you and those of Sodom and Gomorrah and Tyre and Sidon: The Damnation Army.
I wish you'd tell us all what you're on about!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Hell is the place you don't want to go when you die: it's all full of evil people who failed to repent of their sins in this life.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Martin, what are you talking about?
Do you mean to insult Mudfrog personally or just the Salvation Army?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
? neither.
By their theology the VAST majority of humanity MUST be the Damnation Army.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
The Salvation Army's theology is that of Wesleyan Methodism. It is no different to the historic creeds, all of which we subscribe to.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Orlando098:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Jesus was given for the world so that 'whoever
believes may be saved.
I personally am quite dubious that our eternal fate depends entirely on hearing a particular story and believing it; it seems a strange way for the creator of the universe to have organised things
And how about the many millions who died long before the story was ever told?
All people will be judged according to the light they have received.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
Apologies for not having read this thread all the way through, and forgive me for wanting to share something before I do.
Since I last posted, I have read a comic book version of Dante's Inferno, which has prompted me to rethink my view of hell.
I had previously assumed that Dante's Divine Comedy was a fairly dry description of the three realms of afterlife. However, I now realise that in the inferno, hell serves as a backdrop for a monster-slaying hero quest, in which Dante the Quester (not to be confused with Dante the poet) is on a mission to save Beatrice.
Dante the Quester, and Beatrice, are both in hell because they had sex with each other outside of marriage. However, Dante the Quester had many more sins to his name besides this; therefore he believes that he deserves to be in hell, but Beatrice does not deserve to be in hell, because she would not be in hell if he had not made a promise to her which he subsequently broke. Therefore, he feels that if he is to do one thing right, it is to rescue Beatrice from hell. Dante the Quester therefore has to slay the monsters and demons of hell if he is to do that.
The complication is that his mission gets progressively more and more difficult as more and more of his shameful past is revealed. These revelations have the effect of galvanising Beatrice in hatred of Dante the Quester, and making her want to be the Queen of Hell.
The funny thing is, a lot of Christian apologetics is argued on the basis of the idea that we are cowards who want to avoid hell. More specifically, we are the "damsels in distress", who have put ourselves in peril as a result of our own sin - but that Jesus is the great hero who rescues us from that peril, and that we ought to be grateful for that.
However, once you start to regard hell as being a backdrop of a heroic quest, you begin to realise that you can't actually gain heroic glory unless you slay the monsters of hell - but you've got to actually go to hell in order to do that! Being scared of going to hell is a bit like Odysseus being scared of the sea; there's no glory in being scared of hell.
Hell in Dante's Inferno, and the sea in the Odyssey, seems to serve a similar function to the tribulation and great battle in the book of Revelation. However, that battle is not normally thought of as being "hell". We normally think of hell as being the lake of fire that Death and Hades get thrown into. There is therefore a distinction to be made between the "tribulation" and "hell".
Or is there? If so, then what's all the stuff in the Gospels about Jesus baptising people not with water, but with fire? If the pain of the tribulation is not on a par with the pain of hell, then how are we supposed to believe that God's got any power anyway?
The theology that sin has put you in peril, and you need to be saved from that peril, but that Jesus has already saved you from that peril, is a great religion for girls - but it's no good for men. I think men feel emasculated by that kind of teaching. Personally, I am much happier with the idea that I might be able to slay my own personal demons and monsters, and that we can all encourage each other to slay these demons, than with the idea that I don't have to slay the demons because Jesus has already done it for us. God's purpose is to help me with that - but the idea that God's going to do it all by himself without any input from me, seems to make nonsense of the idea that God tests us in any way.
As a result, hell hold no fear for me. No, wait, that's not true. Hell does hold fear for me - but the fear isn't really any greater than things I fear in this life - such as being stuck in an elderly care home, unable to move, unable to speak, and in lots of pain.
Is Christianity really that girly, though? Medieval warrior saint legends, and crusader legends, would appear to suggest not. So I think there are two kinds of Christianity; one for heroes (who will usually, but not always, be men), and the other for damsels in distress (who will usually, but not always, be women). In the women's version of Christianity, hell is something to be feared, and you have to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ in order that he will save you from hell. But in the men's version of Christianity, it's your job to save other people from hell, by slaying the monsters of sin. Anything you say about your "faith" therefore needs to be backed up by action, like it says in the book of James - and if you fear going to hell and confronting these monsters, then you are a coward, who does not deserve to be called a Christian.
Or something like that. Okay maybe not. But I for one am much happier being told that I can slay monsters, than I am being told that I don't have to slay monsters, because salvation is by faith not works, and monster-slaying counts as a "work". In my opinion, faith should be about encouragement to action - not excuses for inaction. But the bigger point is, I'm amazed to discover that even the concept of hell is not unaffected by that.
Thanks to all you good people for your posts, this is a fascinating thread.
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
Is Christianity really that girly, though? Medieval warrior saint legends, and crusader legends, would appear to suggest not. So I think there are two kinds of Christianity; one for heroes (who will usually, but not always, be men), and the other for damsels in distress (who will usually, but not always, be women). In the women's version of Christianity, hell is something to be feared, and you have to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ in order that he will save you from hell. But in the men's version of Christianity, it's your job to save other people from hell, by slaying the monsters of sin.
I suppose us Orthodox types are (usually, but not always) a third gender, then. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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pjkirk
Shipmate
# 10997
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
All people will be judged according to the light they have received.
Which raises then the gigantic question of when have you received enough 'light' to be condemned?
Is my mere existence in the West enough to condemn me if I am not a Christian? Gideon Bible in the hotel room? Is seeing Billy Graham on TV, and changing the station enough? Do I need to attend church, be an active seeker and then decide it isn't for me?
I was a believer for 19 years but think it's hogwash now....is that enough light to condemn, or obviously not enough light to convince, therefore I should be spared?
Why bother talking much about Hell if you have no answer for these questions (and there is none from the Bible, certainly).
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Dear God, I would like to file a bug report -- Randall Munroe (http://xkcd.com/258/)
Posts: 1177 | From: Swinging on a hammock, chatting with Bokonon | Registered: Feb 2006
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pjkirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
All people will be judged according to the light they have received.
Which raises then the gigantic question of when have you received enough 'light' to be condemned?
Is my mere existence in the West enough to condemn me if I am not a Christian? Gideon Bible in the hotel room? Is seeing Billy Graham on TV, and changing the station enough? Do I need to attend church, be an active seeker and then decide it isn't for me?
I was a believer for 19 years but think it's hogwash now....is that enough light to condemn, or obviously not enough light to convince, therefore I should be spared?
Why bother talking much about Hell if you have no answer for these questions (and there is none from the Bible, certainly).
And therefore probably no point in anyone replying to your post.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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