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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The Nature of Hell
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Speak for yourself Mudfrog.
pj - we will ALL receive sufficient light in the Resurrection. I count ALL but myself as having received insufficient light to be judged apart from the judgement of the law - which condemns us all.
ALL have been atoned for in Christ, virtually none have that light, that good news. In Christianity.
But that gospel WILL be heard that the end may come.
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Love wins
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
condemned = perish.
That's right. One of the consequences of eating the fruit was death, and death is what we must all undergo. Christ was the firstborn from the dead; we must all die if we are to be born again. Death is a necessary process for all of us to undergo in order to be redeemed. This is the symbol of baptism. For those in Christ, there is one type of death. For the rest there is another.
But who has all authority, even over death? And what will be that final enemy to be defeated?
When that enemy is finally defeated there will only be life, and creation will finally be made right.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
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Posted
What about people who are alive when Jesus comes back - would they necessarily have to die?
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Orlando098:
What about people who are alive when Jesus comes back - would they necessarily have to die?
Here
and
Here
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The idea of eternal conscious punishment of the damned, takes the problem of suffering inflicted by a loving God and makes it a million times more problematic.
It doesn't seem consistent with the nature of God as expressed by Jesus in the New Testament. Why would one worship a being so cruel ?
And also what is the point, if we are going to be massively literal about this:
Jesus was crucified for a day or so and dead for three days - this apparently (if you accept the PSA theological position) was lifting the punishment from all mankind who accepted his ministry. People suffer far worse things, for far longer, every year - and certainly eternal conscious punishment in a lake of fire would make crucifixion for a few days look like a minor inconvenience and it would be an action far more vicious than any human has ever managed to perpetrate. So how in any sense could it be just ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Here's my understanding of hell, which fits with a number of the comments that have been made on this thread.
I believe that 'God is love' (i.e. 'love' describes the whole of God's character, not: 'love is only the nice side of the coin of God's character and holiness is the nasty side of the coin').
I also believe that God is hell.
In other words, the love of God itself is hell.
How can that be? And how does the Bible support such a view?
"God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29). "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:31). Plus many other references to God as fire.
What is 'evil'? Is 'evil' simply to be defined as a falling short of a perfect moral law? If that is the case, then there is no difference between wilful evil and human weakness. If we imagine two people at an archery contest. One of them tries his darndest to hit the bullseye, but he misses the mark, despite his best efforts. He has fallen short as a result of his weakness, even though his will was directed to doing his best. The other archer couldn't care less about trying to hit the target, and deliberately turns his back on it and proceeds to fire the arrow in the opposite direction. His failure to hit the target was clearly not a result of human weakness, but a wilful refusal to even try.
I must admit that it angers me when certain Christians (particularly of the 'evangelical' variety, who are not really evangelicals according to the etymology of the word) cannot tell the difference between 'wilful evil' and 'human weakness'. Hence the appalling prospect of billions of people being damned simply for having committed the crime of being born into a world supposedly infected by original sin.
Evil is to do with the will. It is also of a spiritual nature (and I am not talking here about demons necessarily). If someone is actually 'of an evil nature', then we have to ask: why? What deep-seated attitude governs their thinking and actions? Presumably the desire to hurt people (especially innocent people, so perfectly described in Proverbs 1:11-12) comes from a wilful hatred of mercy. The love of God is an obnoxious and vile thing to the person who is genuinely evil. In other words, the very presence of God - the God of love - is utter hell to the one who is consumed with pride, self-justification and a total contempt for others (or certain others).
So instead of talking about God being cruel or a sadist, why not say that it is actually God's gentleness, his love, his compassion and his mercy that is actually the agent of torment. "Love is as strong as death, jealousy as cruel as the grave; its flames are flames of fire, a most vehement flame." (Song of Solomon 8:6). Love itself is sadistic to those who hate it.
One of the most horrific descriptions of hell is in Revelation 14:10-11 (as has already been pointed out on this thread). The damned are tormented "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb". The Lamb is a clear reference to 'Christ crucified' (see Rev. 5:6). So the damned are in torment in the presence of, as it were, 'Christ crucified'. But Christ on the cross is no sadist torturing people! He is a victim - in fact, he is the eternal victim. What harm can Jesus on the cross do to anyone? Furthermore, what did God reveal through 'Christ crucified'? Well, one thing was this: "Forgive them Father, for they do not know what they are doing." This is a clear revelation that genuine ignorance can never damn any soul. Also 1 John 4:9-10 states: "In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins". So clearly the love of God is revealed through 'Christ crucified' in whose presence the damned are tormented. This is evidence that hell is full of the love of God, hence the reason for the torments of those who hate that love.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
How do they answer the question Mudfrog ?
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Love wins
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Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Orlando098:
What about people who are alive when Jesus comes back - would they necessarily have to die?
Here
and
Here
Yes, so they won't need to actually die as such, they will just be "changed"
Posts: 1019 | From: Nice, France | Registered: Jul 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Orlando098:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Orlando098:
What about people who are alive when Jesus comes back - would they necessarily have to die?
Here
and
Here
Yes, so they won't need to actually die as such, they will just be "changed"
we will all be changed from mortal to immortal, corruptible to incorruptible.
Beyond that, we bow to the mystery of it all.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
My idea of hell is to be alone forever in a totally dark, silent room with no doors or windows and no means of escape.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
All?
Every human who has ever lived?
[ 29. November 2010, 07:47: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
I think the judgement question is worthy of its own thread, so i done one.
here
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
we will all be changed from mortal to immortal, corruptible to incorruptible.
So we will be changed from beings capable of growth and change to those fixed and static and incapable of growth, and those capable of trying to balance complex situations to hardline fanatics incapable of understanding multiple sides of a situation.
quote:
Beyond that, we bow to the mystery of it all.
And shudder at the mystery of what others consider heaven to be.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
we will all be changed from mortal to immortal, corruptible to incorruptible.
So we will be changed from beings capable of growth and change to those fixed and static and incapable of growth, and those capable of trying to balance complex situations to hardline fanatics incapable of understanding multiple sides of a situation.
quote:
Beyond that, we bow to the mystery of it all.
And shudder at the mystery of what others consider heaven to be.
How do you get those negative qualities out of immortality and incorruptibility?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
All?
Every human who has ever lived?
I guess this gives a traditional view of that - http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0066.htm
ie. yes, resurrected to spend eternity in paradise in God's Kingdom or in hell, which seems sadistic, frankly - to give people new bodies just to suffer in. That is also a mainstream catholic view of what will happen.
[ 29. November 2010, 16:32: Message edited by: Orlando098 ]
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Thanks Orlando, I realise that, but it's a typically narrow misinterpretation of course. Paul is obviously talking ONLY about Christians.
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Love wins
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
Josephine, that's a brilliant analogy.
Pity, Mudfrog, that you haven't engaged yourself with it.
To give my view: Hell is something of our creation. Whether one means Auschwitz-Birkenau, or those addicted to (external or internal) violence, God can heal.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
It's all in Handel, all in Handel. What do they teach them in these schools?
The trumpet shall sound
And the dead shall be raised
And the dead shall be raised incorruptible
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Thanks Orlando, I realise that, but it's a typically narrow misinterpretation of course. Paul is obviously talking ONLY about Christians.
Yes, that makes sense; as far as I can remember he didn't talk about hell much (at all?) and one could read into what he says that the dead who are not saved just stay dead, I guess.
There is a Catholic page about general resurrection here: general resurrection
And, in the entry on Eschatology it claims that hell has degrees of suffering, depending on how bad you were:
Hell, in Catholic teaching, designates the place or state of men (and angels) who, because of sin, are excluded forever from the Beatific Vision. In this wide sense it applies to the state of those who die with only original sin on their souls (Council of Florence, Denzinger, no. 588), although this is not a state of misery or of subjective punishment of any kind, but merely implies the objective privation of supernatural bliss, which is compatible with a condition of perfect natural happiness. But in the narrower sense in which the name is ordinarily used, hell is the state of those who are punished eternally for unrepented personal mortal sin. Beyond affirming the existence of such a state, with varying degrees of punishment corresponding to degrees of guilt and its eternal or unending duration , Catholic doctrine does not go.
I would say it may be true that Jesus and the first Christians focussed mainly on resurrection for the saved, and not much on hell as a destination for others; but perhaps that the idea of eternal punishment for them gained ground due to persecution and people hoping for some especially unpleasant end for their enemies.
[ 29. November 2010, 20:00: Message edited by: Orlando098 ]
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pjkirk:
[QUOTE]I was a believer for 19 years but think it's hogwash now....is that enough light to condemn, or obviously not enough light to convince, therefore I should be spared?
Why bother talking much about Hell if you have no answer for these questions (and there is none from the Bible, certainly).
What happened?
Hell is simply God's answer ultimately to the containment of evil, ie what cannot be destroyed because it is eternal, and what cannot be redeemed because redemption has been rejected. It was designed for the rebel angels, not for man.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Hell is simply God's answer ultimately to the containment of evil, ie what cannot be destroyed because it is eternal, and what cannot be redeemed because redemption has been rejected. It was designed for the rebel angels, not for man.
Evil is eternal? I've never heard that said by any Christian, theologian or otherwise. Only God is eternal.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
There's at least one Christian here like most Catholics, whether Roman or Protestant, saying EXACTLY that Mousethief.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
If evil is eternal then God is a failure.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It ain't me!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
Well speaking as an atheist I find the idea of hell, at least the popular “eternal torment” view of hell problematic. I mean I may be far from perfect but I would not allow someone to be tortured for eternity if there was something I could do to prevent it. So if hell does exist that would make me more moral than the creator of the universe. And that just wouldn't make sense would it.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
As an atheist then maybe you can appreciate that if there is a God and if there is an afterlife, then it's possible that the traditional idea of hell may simply be mistaken.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Bedazzled! You're no atheist, you just got bored!
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Love wins
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Orlando098
I would say it may be true that Jesus and the first Christians focussed mainly on resurrection for the saved, and not much on hell as a destination for others; but perhaps that the idea of eternal punishment for them gained ground due to persecution and people hoping for some especially unpleasant end for their enemies.
The problem with this eminently plausible hypothesis is that the times of most vicious persecution were the times when the overwhelming view of the church was universalism. It was only after Constantine that the "damnationist" view really took hold. Even then, it was only during the reign of Justinian (early 6th century) that universalism was anathematised. It is difficult to resist the conclusion that the "traditional" understanding of the afterlife owes more to Imperial expectations that the official church would keep the plebs in line, than to any new doctrinal understanding.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
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Posted
I was just throwing it out there are an idea. But there is enough in the NT to justify damnationist views if one wants to, also when I think of early writings I have read that have struck me as especially looking forward to unbelievers going to Hell, I think firstly of Tertullian, who was second/third Century.
[ 03. December 2010, 22:10: Message edited by: Orlando098 ]
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Only if one wants to ignore the fact of Jesus' name and words O.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Orlando098:
I would say it may be true that Jesus and the first Christians focussed mainly on resurrection for the saved, and not much on hell as a destination for others;
Virtually everything that we know about hell comes from Jesus' statements in the Gospels.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Orlando098:
I would say it may be true that Jesus and the first Christians focussed mainly on resurrection for the saved, and not much on hell as a destination for others;
Virtually everything that we know about hell comes from Jesus' statements in the Gospels.
Do shipomates not think that if Jesus wanted to tell people that all would be saved, whatever, that he would have said so? Would he not have said that there was no hell?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Orlando098:
I would say it may be true that Jesus and the first Christians focussed mainly on resurrection for the saved, and not much on hell as a destination for others;
Virtually everything that we know about hell comes from Jesus' statements in the Gospels.
Do shipomates not think that if Jesus wanted to tell people that all would be saved, whatever, that he would have said so? Would he not have said that there was no hell?
Not only did Jesus not say that there was no hell, He is the one who made all the statements about hell that Christianity has accepted over the milennia.
The hell of the Bible is Jesus' hell, not the invention of someone else.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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molitva
Shipmate
# 7859
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Posted
It seems that a majority of contributors so far fall into one of two categories:
1. Those who proceed primarily from the apparent plain meaning of Scripture on the subject to yield a hard and frightening, indeed frankly terrifying, view of hell
2. Those who find this view unpalatable and draw on other, mostly non-Scriptural, considerations to argue against the apparent plain meaning of the proof texts. Chief among these is what they think (or hope) a ‘loving God’ would do.
My question to the first group is:
By what intelligible concept of ‘love’ is the eternal suffering of large numbers of people made the will of a loving God? Does this meaning of ‘love’ bear any resemblance whatsoever to the meaning of that word when we use it in other circumstances (to describe the love of a friend, child, husband/wife etc)?
My question to the second group is:
How less likely is it that a loving God would cause infinite suffering after death than that he would tolerate the vast finite suffering that is easily observable in this world?
And one for everyone: why does there seem to be much more in the Bible about Hell than Heaven?
Oh, and are there any shipmates in Kazakhstan?
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by molitva:
My question to the first group is:
By what intelligible concept of ‘love’ is the eternal suffering of large numbers of people made the will of a loving God?
There is a loving God, and by this I mean a God who answers to the normal commonly understood meaning of the term.
The simple answer is that a loving God allows people to think, desire, and do what they wish. Forever. If the results don't yield what is objectively the "happiest" lifestyle, what business is it of yours? Happiness and unhappiness are subjectively experienced.
As I understand the system, God does not judge. God does not cast into hell. God does not punish. God does nothing more than try to guide all people in freedom to eternal happiness. If it were not possible to refuse this guidance then freedom wouldn't be real.
There is nothing unloving about a God who warns people that some lifestyle choices are less fruitful than others.
The unhappiness that is called "hell" is nothing other than the misery that is inherent in a self-centered existence. Biblical imagery is just a way of picturing this unhappiness in a tangible way.
You might argue that God created the system, so He is responsible for any suffering that happens. But apparently it isn't possible to have a system with genuine freedom where opposite choices, and opposite results, don't exist.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by molitva:
My question to the second group is:
How less likely is it that a loving God would cause infinite suffering after death than that he would tolerate the vast finite suffering that is easily observable in this world?
I'm not in the second group, but it raises a question that is hard to get around.
Is a loving God who allows enormous and apparently interminable suffering on earth any better than one who allows it after death?
The existence of any suffering at all would seem then to point to a bad God or no God.
But I think that it is just as easy to dispose with this question as it is to deal with Molitva's first question.
The answer is that the divine permission of suffering by a loving God is explained by a combination of two things:
- 1. The benefits of having a stable physical environment that is not directly governed by spiritual forces outweighs the problems that it causes.
- 2. The benefits of allowing people to do as they please, even if they end up hurting each other, outweighs the problems that freedom causes.
These two aspects of life are so beneficial that a loving God is right to allow them despite the suffering they cause.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The problem with that argument is that an omnipotent, omniscient being ought - by definition - to be able to create the two beneficial outcomes without the suffering. The fact that humans lack the ability to conceptualize how that might happen, doesn't in itself negate God's ability to do it.
It would also suggest that in heaven we have perfect happiness but no freedom and/or an environment in total flux.
[ 06. December 2010, 17:03: Message edited by: Think˛ ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think˛:
The problem with that argument is that an omnipotent, omniscient being ought - by definition - to be able to create the two beneficial outcomes without the suffering. The fact that humans lack the ability to conceptualize how that might happen, doesn't in itself negate God's ability to do it.
Sure, but that argument starts down the road to whether or not God could create a stone so heavy He couldn't lift it.
Admittedly, all of these rules are God's own creation. If there is a God. So maybe He could have done it better.
But if we are willing to admit to the possibility of there being a God, then it isn't too big a leap to accept the idea that laws such as gravity and the law of opposites are the best possible way to arrange things.
quote:
Originally posted by Think˛:
It would also suggest that in heaven we have perfect happiness but no freedom and/or an environment in total flux.
You would think. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
But actually, as I understand it, the environment works differently in heaven. Whereas in this world we experience an unstable inner environment but a stable outer one, it is the reverse in heaven.
In the spiritual realm the external world is completely dependent on each person's inner nature, and changes accordingly. Fortunately, by the time that a person is in heaven their inner world is stable, and so their outer one follows suit.
This is why life after death is a paradise, but only for those who are themselves a paradise, or who are willing to receive the paradise that God gives them.
But they are just as free in heaven. The difference is that, following the principle of "the rich get richer", everything about the heavenly environment reinforces stability, so people in heaven do not make evil choices.
It would be nice if the physical world acted in the same way, but it is specifically set up as a physical constant within which spiritual things can vary freely.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by molitva:
And one for everyone: why does there seem to be much more in the Bible about Hell than Heaven?
Orlando had an answer for this:
quote:
Originally posted by Orlando098:
I would say it may be true that Jesus and the first Christians focussed mainly on resurrection for the saved, and not much on hell as a destination for others; but perhaps that the idea of eternal punishment for them gained ground due to persecution and people hoping for some especially unpleasant end for their enemies.
But of course Jesus mentions heaven many more times in the Gospels than He mentions hell. He just doesn't say much about what it's like.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
God obviously cannot create any sentient being with a guarantee that they will respond positively to existing in Him no matter what He does.
And He hasn't even started yet.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
God obviously cannot create any sentient being with a guarantee that they will respond positively to existing in Him no matter what He does.
It is interesting that the God who invented everything, including all possibilities and even notions like "cannot", would have made it the way that He did.
It is interesting that "suffering" should have ever even been a possibility and that it should exist as the opposite of joy. Isn't there a way that joy could be possible without automatically meaning that a lack of joy is also possible?
I am content to accept that the existence of "opposites" is a good thing, and that it is a good thing for a lack of joy to be the theoretical opposite of happiness.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The opposite of joy is joylessness. Not suffering. The opposite of suffering is not suffering. That's a 2 x 2 matrix.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Excellent point, Martin.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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