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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: What one might consider an adequate reason to leave a church
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Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673
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Posted
Thanks you, Wood, for this thread! This is the kind of thread I was hoping the one I started would become.
As a pastor, I would appreciate an honest letter (not a grievance-airing one) about why. Too often people are just too polite to say, but how can a pastor address what s/he doesn't get to know? You have an ideological reason to leave and you could say that neither tersely nor being overly blubbery.
One that got to me was a couple who left because they saw "no potential for growth" in the congregation. They also expressed disapproval of how the same people seemed to have all the offices, just all changed around every year. I responded, "Stan (not his real name), you've been nominated for an office every year since I've been here and you've said no every time." They left on good terms, actually, as they really are a nice couple and I wish them well, but I confess that I don't completely understand their reasons for leaving. Still, I very much appreciate their being so forthright and frank!
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The fact that no one understands you does not make you an artist.
(unknown)
Posts: 2767 | From: half-way up the ladder | Registered: May 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
People reading 'A Churchless Faith' might also be interested in the sequel, 'Church Leavers: Faith journeys five years on' (Jamieson, McIntosh, Thompson).
My response was to immediately get involved in another church (having sussed a few out while still wrestling with deciding to finally leave the old one) - in our case this was because we had young children who enjoyed singing and, given that they were both boys with time-limited treble voices, we couldn't afford to dither around. For us, that worked really well, but I guess if you have the time, and no immediate reason to get stuck in, then a period of gentle exploration might be more suitable.
I'm interested in how couples and families make their decisions, compared to individuals who have only themselves to think about. It must be really hard if different members of the family have different ideas. I know several couples where the solution was for the husband to worship in one church and the wife in another!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I left one parish because the actions of the priest and the general fuckwittedness of the Parish Council was getting in the way of worshipping God.
Now nicely settled in the next parish over.
Strangely enough late last year I got a letter from the former parish asking for money to make up a budget shortfall. Since that shortfall is approximately twice what I gave, I guess they do miss me. Or at least my money. I often see former parishioners at my new church.
As for the begging letter? I "filed" it.
[one word changes the intent of the sentence often, don't you find?]
[ 24. January 2011, 21:07: Message edited by: PeteC ]
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I think about this a lot, not because I'm ever likely to leave my church -- I'm not -- but because many times I wonder how uncomfortable I'd have to be there before I'd consider it.
For me, it would have to be pretty extreme, but that's mainly because denominational identity is very important to me -- I couldn't imagine identifying as any other sort of Christian other than a Seventh-day Adventist -- and there's very little choice in churches of my denomination around here. I live five minutes' walk from my church, have attended it since I was born except for a few years when I lived away from here. I was baptised in this church, married in this church, both my children dedicated there, and have always been active there, usually in youth or children's ministries.
Even though I'm more liberal theologically than 99% of the members there, I've usually felt comfortable and at home, never felt everyone had to agree with me on everything in order for me to be at home there. Lately, the atmosphere has changed a bit. There has been an ultra-conservative fringe in the church for the last 15-20 years but they have been just that, a fringe -- now, with the coming of a new pastor coinciding with new and more conservative leadership of our denomination as a whole, the former "fringe" element is becoming much more central at my home church and I'm the one feeling like I'm on the fringe, and trying to work out how to be gracious and loving about feeling marginalized.
The best example recently of the sort of thing that makes me uncomfortable was at the end of October when our pastor used the pulpit to preach an anti-Hallowe'en sermon and then a singer got up to sing a song he'd written himself about how those who allow their children to go trick or treating are "passing their children through the flames" and "sacrificing them to Satan." There were hearty amens. My husband and another couple of men got up and walked out, but I sat through it.
I have a tremendous sense of loyalty to this church -- it is the church of my parents and grandparents as well as my own; I love the sense of history I have there. I love that there are active children's and youth programs even though I get tired of being the one who puts the majority of effort into running them. There next nearest SDA church is half an hour's drive away and would be far less of a good fit for many reasons.
So for me, leaving is not really an option, and I do believe it's good for me to experience being marginalized, to expose my children to different points of view and discuss how there are different ways of being Christians, and to learn to get along with those who disagree with me, especially now that they tend to be in positions of greater power and influence. I think it's good training in humility and Christian love and all that, but honestly -- if I lived in an area where there were a variety of churches of my denomination, and a more liberal one was reasonably close -- I would seriously consider leaving, despite my longstanding ties to my present congregation.
And I do think that if you leave a church for a specific reason, rather than just drifting away, you should tell the pastor and the board why. Not in an angry way, but I do like the polite letter idea. If policies or practices are driving people away from the church, the leadership should know about that.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
On "what is a valid reason to leave" -
A friend told me he is looking for a new church because "five years in this church and no one knows my name."
Oh God I wish that would happen to me. But I realize my situation is different.
I was talking to a parishioner this morning who left the church for 43 years. Sadly, when she came back, only the face had changed.
But I'm not really helping the thread. I get paid to stay.
[ 25. January 2011, 10:31: Message edited by: Trudy Scrumptious ]
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
It's extraordinarily helpful reading this thread. Thank you, Wood, for starting it.
It's helped me realize that (though I haven't formalized this) I've already left my church, and it probably would be a kindness to them (and me) to say so.
It's also helped me think a bit more clearly through the muddle of guilt, confusion, angst, (and yes, some anger) I feel about leaving a congregation where I've taught church school, led services, begun a new ministry, etc. etc. over the 7-8 years of my involvement. Everyone in my congregation knows my name (even a few people whose names I haven't learned!) . . . but not one of those people has ever asked after me since I stopped attending.
I don't know what that means (maybe that I was a pain in the butt during my sojourn?), but these reflections on others' experience with "moving on" (and why) are very, very helpful.
[ 24. January 2011, 23:56: Message edited by: Apocalypso ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Interesting, the originator of this thread and most of the posters on it seem to be what I would call 'church people' i.e. they are people who have left, are considering leaving or have decided to stay at a particular bricks and mortar church. A couple are religious professionals who are motivated to stay and keep bums on seats for financial reasons (amongst others).
It seems to be presumed that, if I leave St Moggs in the Marsh, seemingly for perfectly logical and justifiable reasons (do I really need them ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) ?), I will almost immediately end up at St Wilfrid's of the Smoke Stacks or similar, also for perfectly logical and justifiable reasons.
Is this thread then about ' Church choice: the Consumer's Guide. When You Need to Move On When Your Perceived Needs are Not Fulfilled'?
multipara hit on a different note. A deep inner conviction, tested over time, that something just 'wasn't right' and a gradual, guided, I believe, move away to somewhere more appropriate. Divine guidance, mayhap?
PeteC's intuition that his previous place seemed just to want his money is also, to me, confirmation from 'up top'.
God does, indeed, move in mysterious ways. Sometimes reading what He wants needs subtlety.
Perhaps what He wants for me is not my 'church wish list'?
Perhaps I get more, at a much deeper level, from religion than what my Ego wants? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
[ 25. January 2011, 00:07: Message edited by: Sir Pellinore (ret'd) ]
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Anna B
Shipmate
# 1439
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Posted
An adequate reason to leave a church? How about a parish environment so hostile that the doctor of a pregnant member advised her to leave, on the grounds that her health and that of her unborn child were in danger?
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Bad Christian (TM)
Posts: 3069 | From: near a lot of fish | Registered: Oct 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
To have choice! We left the first church because we started a family and they told us the kids were disruptive to the service and there was nothing, no nothing for kids there. It has closed.
We then left the second one 9 years later when they diocese closed it up, or maybe I should say forced closure after appointing a poorly matched rector who just wasn't right for it.
Now we are nearly 15 years in the present church, and are thinking about going. The church is thinking of it's buildings more than the people it seems. The rector is retiring after death of spouse a year ago at 60. I went off the vestry (what we call a parish council here) last Feb. Spouse is on now, but has had such incredible drama and pain from the focus on the past and buildings and other tripe versus the future that even though spouse is chair of the meetings, may need to resign to maintain faith and sanity.
Problem is we just don't have much elsewhere to go. We have so few Anglican parishes, that we'd have to look outside, maybe to Lutherans. The rest of the churches have nearly no connection to identifiable Christianity like United Church or are excessively evangelical-country gospel-clappy.
I almost thought there was a message (though I tend to think this way almost never) when someone talked to me about the parish website and offered to help - I've been doing it since it started maybe 6 years ago. Trouble is I'd have to give up committees outside the parish too.... The best advice we've received is not to make a decision while feelings dominate, wait until we both feel calm, and pray quietly for peace and the right ideas to come. So its back to the rhythyms of phrase of the 'old prayer book' morning and night for a while.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
The second church I left was for several reasons. I only had attended a few months - I had moved house - and it wasn't the kind of church I normally attend.
FWIW, I wouldn't actually call that leaving a church. Rather, that's finding that the first church you try isn't the right one.
Yeah, I did wonder about that. Thing is, though, I've moved house so often in my life, that the longest I've attended a church is four years, so a few months does seem quite significant to me. But I realise that's different from a lot of people's experience.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Is this thread then about ' Church choice: the Consumer's Guide. When You Need to Move On When Your Perceived Needs are Not Fulfilled'?
I sometimes have to wonder if other people are actually reading the same thread as I am ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
The thread I've read includes numerous examples of people leaving, or contemplating leaving, church because of what to me seem serious issues rather than just not having perceived needs met. Communion being denied to other people is not IMO about personal needs.
On the other hand, I think perceived personal (or familial) needs become an important issue in deciding what to do after you leave. It takes time to find a church that suits you, and sometimes what is needed is a sabbatical from organised church.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Is this thread then about ' Church choice: the Consumer's Guide. When You Need to Move On When Your Perceived Needs are Not Fulfilled'?
quote:
Perhaps I get more, at a much deeper level, from religion than what my Ego wants?
Absolutely not, in any way, shape or form. I think I made it very clear that I think this attitude is wrong and damaging.
No, it's about the thing that would drive you to make a wrenching decision to leave a commmunity that you have been part of for a good chunk of your life - I haven't really been part of any other church - and it's sort of become about the right thing to do when one makes that decision.
This is so completely divorced from simple consumerism (a word I tend to equate, with my politics and ethics, with "Satanism" anyway) that comments like these kind of border on satire.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Is this thread then about ' Church choice: the Consumer's Guide. When You Need to Move On When Your Perceived Needs are Not Fulfilled'?
I sometimes have to wonder if other people are actually reading the same thread as I am
The thread I've read includes numerous examples of people leaving, or contemplating leaving, church because of what to me seem serious issues rather than just not having perceived needs met. Communion being denied to other people is not IMO about personal needs.
Thank you, Alan.
Look, I didn't want to spell it out, but: I'm not gay. I have friends — Christian friends — who are gay. Could my gay friends be part of my church and truthfully be themselves? No, they could not.
I owe it to them not to be part of that community. After all the shit I've been through, all the hurt I've endured, the being silenced and demoted and marginalised and the gossip and all that over the last seven or eight years, the knowledge that I was considered suspect because of my friendship with a somewhat more progressive Methodist minister, this is the only thing that has actually made me get up and leave.
Because a wrong is being done — a sin, a terrible sin. And I will not be part of it, and I will not have my children be taught to perpetuate it.
And if it turns out that I am wrong, and I am somehow permitting sin to happen and unable to see the plank in my own eye, then I owe it to the church to leave because I am damaging the church by staying and I need to be spat out like that congregation in Laodicea they like talking about so much at my church.
Someone is being harmed by my staying, and I have to go.
Look. I deliberately didn't spell out the issue because I don't want this thread to be about that. I wanted it to be about reasons to leave a church, valid reasons, and what constitutes a valid reason. That's all.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Boopy
Shipmate
# 4738
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Posted
I changed churches (and denominations) after many years and a lot of heart-searching. Significant and growing differences in theology, worship, views on inclusion, and models of church life were some of the reasons. One of the best pieces of advice I received at the time was to try if possible to move positively towards something new rather than just away from something that for whatever reason, was no longer viable. Dealing with some anger about some of the reasons for leaving was important too; sometimes there are very good reasons for feeling angry about things that have happened in a church but holding onto that hurts only oneself in the long run. Acknowledging any anger and then letting it go takes time but can be an important part of making a positive move.
For me it was important to achieve a positive transition, seeking to maintain friendships and contacts. This involved a friendly letter not dwelling too much on reasons for change but making sure no friendship bridges were burnt; a gradually tapered change of attendance over a long time; avoiding any public discussion of reasons for leaving and particularly not criticising the old church to the new one; and a period of settling in very quietly at the new place before expressing interest in taking on any tasks or responsibilities. This sort of transition does take time but is worth doing as positively as possible.
Posts: 1170 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
On "what is a valid reason to leave" -
A
Another friend changed church after just 3 or 4 months. He is a career music teacher, decided to start going to church again, went to the denomination of his youth expecting to volunteer help with either children's choir (which had folded) or handbell choir (which needed a new leader). But the music director (who is famous for running off competent musicians) forbade this guy to do anything musical except sing in the choir. My friend said nuts to that and is now at a different church where he has started both a children's choir and a handbell choir. (The handbell set was sitting unused in the church storage room.)
It is policy, and one of the few that I agree with in my diocese that people must have been attending church for a while and become known before they become involved with children's ministry. I don't think one should expect to turn up at church as an unknown and start running a children's choir.
I left a church that had been my spiritual home when the new minister came teaching a load of nonsense. His intellectual poverty was astounding and the rubbish sermons were one thing but I couldn't stand being told that illness was the result of unresolved sin and/or demonic possession. I couldn't bear hearing that the only way to live a Christian life was to be part of a family with kids. People who were ill, divorced, childless etc were not just marginalised but were really being hurt.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angel Wrestler:
As a pastor, I would appreciate an honest letter (not a grievance-airing one) about why. Too often people are just too polite to say, but how can a pastor address what s/he doesn't get to know? You have an ideological reason to leave and you could say that neither tersely nor being overly blubbery.
If I had thought I would be heard, I would have. my priest had been extremely critical of my divorce, despite very compelling reasons. adding that on top of years of feeling that my beliefs were only vaguely in line with the church's (or even Christianity's) it was time.
I had moved churches a few times due to moving for work, and this particular priest preached a political line that I found offensive. I respectfully told him so a few times that we spoke. He even bashed the very denomination in his sermons, and talked of how other denominations were better.
Needless to say I struggled with him, and my falling out of faith, in general. but when he strongly and publicly opposed my divorce, it was the final straw. of course, this made it look like I left for selfish differences.
I was in a horribly emotional place, and not capable of communicating without using very subjective language. I was uncomfortable expressing why I had to GET OUT except that I knew I did. And I knew that a talk or letter expressing my feelings would only get me written off as hysterical and self-centered. He already believed that I made judgements based on an inflated ego, so I chose not to confirm him beliefs.
it was easier to just go.
I'm sure it depends on the situation for each person. A letter is fine if you think it will do any good.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angel Wrestler:
As a pastor, I would appreciate an honest letter (not a grievance-airing one) about why. Too often people are just too polite to say, but how can a pastor address what s/he doesn't get to know? You have an ideological reason to leave and you could say that neither tersely nor being overly blubbery.
If you, as a minister, finally got shot of a parishioner you saw as troublesome, divisive and frankly arsey, and that parishioner left with a letter accusing you of doing something terribly wrong that you in fact thought was completely right, would you be inclined to take your divisive, troublesome and difficult ex-parishioner's letter seriously?
Problem is, I've been a troublemaker for a long time now, ever since they realised that I wasn't just playing Devil's advocate. No matter how I phrase a letter, it'd be seen as me putting the boot in, or finding a reason to get offended, or something. I don't trust my ministers to view my words sympathetically. I do not trust them.
Look. I'm not a saint or a hero. I'm doing something I should have done years ago. And I reckon that if I'm honest, some — some, mind — of the leadership's issues with me are valid. I'm not the good guy here, because that presupposes a bad guy.
I cannot see how any letter from me will not cause more hurt or worse, just be ignored.
[ 25. January 2011, 10:19: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
To throw something else into the mix, as a minister I have a several good friends (who are now all reading this and wondering if I am talking about them) who I love very much, but whom I am really not sure I would get on with so well in a Church situation. This includes some clergy!
The differences range from theological to liturgical to musical.
As I suggested on the Dead Churches thread a single congregation is not the local church. It is just one part of it.
As a Parish priest my main concern is that people grow in discipleship and the fullness of faith. If they grow better by taking the trip up the road to the nearest FiF / New Wine / Methodist / Uber-Inclusive / Choral / Sunday School Running / Linked to Child's School / etc. congregation then I would rather that than them trying to turn where we cannot be or feeling frustrated.
I would hope that any Pastor would feel the same.
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Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
I would hope that any Pastor would feel the same.
The implication being sadly that many don't.
Which is Wood's concern in his last post.
If you are going to write a letter then I would suggest something positive about the congregation, the pastor and the ministry and then the frank admission that you have significant differences on a particular issue - you don't even have to name it - and feel it is time to move on.
3 stars and a wish so to speak!
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blog//twitter//
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Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Might I say that, as a Minister, I feel desperately sad when someone leaves the church - especially if they have not felt that they can come and talk to me, or write me a letter, about it. That is not so I can try and emotionally blackmail them out of leaving - that would never be my aim. But such a lack of communication shows that, somewhere along the line, that the pastoral relationship hadn't worked out as it should. And that is a failure on the church's part, or of mine.
Furthermore, it would be very helpful to know the reasons that someone feels they must go, so that we can correct deficiencies and oversights before they affect someone else. Clearly, the issues might be theological ones that are incapable of resolution - although in my experience it has more often been issues of worship style or perceived hurt that have been more common (I say "perceived" because some people have unrealistic expectations of what the church can do for them and how it must bend over backwards to accomodate all their preferences and opinions!)
But there is more to this. As a minister - what sometimes used to be quaintly termed an "under-shepherd" of the flock - I find that I am personally hurt when someone leaves. I suspect that many ministers, especially those in "sole charge" of a church, feel the same: their whole life and ministry are inextricably intertwined, they can't just sit back and let the congregation's problems wash over them.
Accuse me of being too possessive and emotionally involved, if you like; but when someone leaves - especially if the reasons seem trivial - it is like an arrow shot into my heart.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
I would hope that any Pastor would feel the same.
The implication being sadly that many don't.
Which is Wood's concern in his last post.
If you are going to write a letter then I would suggest something positive about the congregation, the pastor and the ministry and then the frank admission that you have significant differences on a particular issue - you don't even have to name it - and feel it is time to move on.
3 stars and a wish so to speak!
Actually, that is a really good approach, Edward. I think I might start there.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Accuse me of being too possessive and emotionally involved, if you like; but when someone leaves - especially if the reasons seem trivial - it is like an arrow shot into my heart.
I just don't see the 'local' church in that way at all. I don't see my relationship with the congregation like that either.
I have a cure of souls for an area where most people do not have a practised faith. That breaks my heart.
I think there is a big ecclesiological difference underneath here. I suspect it is linked to why I left the New Churches, and why I still struggle with aspects of Evangelical Congregationalism.
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Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
I knew a man who left a church in a huff – only to return at a later date, cause problems again and leave, only to return again to cause problems. Third time lucky (for the congregation) they left again for good (I think ). There is a pattern with this person and other local churches. And such a ‘spiritual’ person, you know! But very sure about what they believe.
I left my last church because I had to – I was the minister and retired so was expected to move on (and fully agree with the principle). This proved to be a life-changer. I had time and space to reflect, to ask questions that I had dared not ask whilst in ministry. The result was that, although I found a really excellent congregation where I would have been useful and warmly ministered to, I gave up on church and GOD.
‘Space’ can be good for some, but not if you are fixed in your ways / sure of what you believe.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Wood
On the objectivity of leaders, there is a quote I have used on a few occasions here (from one of the "Dune" series).
"If you put away from you those who seek to tell you the truth, those who remain will know what you want to hear. I can think of nothing more poisonous than to rot in the stink of one's own reflections".
I got a similar bit of advice a lot of years ago from a work colleague.
"If you tell a senior officer they're wrong, and you are wrong, they will often make allowances; even see it as a sign of initiative and a capability for independent thought. If you tell them they are wrong, and they are wrong, they'll never forgive you!"
I think you're right about letters in detail. "Differences in outlook and vision, however differently we may see them" is often about as far as you can go in candour. Some folks duck it, come up with some diplomatic equivalent of "I need to spend more time with my family".
There is another line from SF literature that can come in handy hereabouts.
"Silence is not what I would choose, but I prefer it to a lie". (Ursula le Guin's "The Left Hand of Darkness".)
My very best wishes to you. I think your caution is well-placed! Some folks will always see leaving as a criticism.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
My very best wishes to you. I think your caution is well-placed! Some folks will always see leaving as a criticism.
To be fair, though, it sort of actually is a criticism in this case.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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five
Shipmate
# 14492
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Posted
I too would hope that any pastor would feel the same, but there's enough horror stories here (and on previous threads) that obviously it isn't the case. Then again, there's lousy people in every job. Adding into lousy people a long standing and much reinforced feeling that they've been called by God to do what they're doing so incredibly badly just makes it worse.
And the issue that broke your back is a tricky one that's been hacked to death (and Dead Horses). You may have a hard time finding a church that fully accepts what you need them to, as there are very few that are out there professing the inclusion of gay couples, and often those that are are in the "love the sinner, hate the sin" category. I mean, the Catholic church certainly has plenty of openly gay (if not practicing) priests, staff, etc, and congregations where they feel welcome (and others where they do not feel welcome), but that doesn't change the stated principle that homosexual relations is a sin. This is NOT to bring up the rights and wrongs of a dead horse topic, but to say that you might have a challenge finding a church whose official and/or unofficial lines are in line with your thinking. You're going to have to decide what is important to you and what isn't in this search. Can you live with somewhere where your gay friends would be welcome and take communion but same sex relations is still sinful? Do you need somehwere that doesn't have women priests? Do you need somewhere that DOES have women priests? The child provision sounds important to you and Mrs Wood, but you'll have to figure out what sort of child provision. Do you need full on Godly Play? Or are some coloring sheets and Bible stories ok? Or is it enough that children aren't rejected, but no special provision is made for them? And so on. It will leave you feeling even more wounded to have to walk away from a second church, but it sounds like you'll be spending a bit of time sitting quietly in the pews figuring out what's what for all of you, and that is likely a very good idea.
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And Jesus said 'the greatest commandments are these: Love the Lord your God with 10% of your time and energy, and Pamphlet your neighbour with tracts' - Birdseye
Posts: 1250 | Registered: Jan 2009
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Yes, all those things are wise and we are thinking about them.
quote:
Originally posted by five:
...it sounds like you'll be spending a bit of time sitting quietly in the pews figuring out what's what for all of you, and that is likely a very good idea.
That's the plan.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
I have a cure of souls for an area where most people do not have a practised faith. That breaks my heart.
Although we in the Free Churches don't have the cure of souls in a parish, the lack of peoples' faith around our churches (buildings) still breaks our hearts.
quote:
I think there is a big ecclesiological difference underneath here. I suspect it is linked to why I left the New Churches, and why I still struggle with aspects of Evangelical Congregationalism.
I'm sure you are right in that - although don't necessarily equate "Evangelical" and "Congregational"!
[ 25. January 2011, 13:52: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
My very best wishes to you. I think your caution is well-placed! Some folks will always see leaving as a criticism.
To be fair, though, it sort of actually is a criticism in this case.
I guess it all depends on the nature of the criticism. If it is over theological differences, that can be said. If the differences have become personal, and character-related, that is much harder to say. But the hardest issue is over perceived unfairness of treatment - of oneself or others. Normally that cannot be resolved at all, since there are nearly always two different views of what is fair, and some polarisation if previous attempts to resolve have not worked.
It's why I believe all churches can benefit from some "appeal to third party arbitration" in such cases. And very few nonco churches have anything like that.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
I think that, for me, the main reason I would leave a church would be due to an irreconcilable change in the theology.
When I joined our current church (nearly 20 years ago) I knew that the only theological stand I could not accept was infant baptism. However, the church's position is well thought out, and does not actually cause me a theological problem. When I was called to be an elder, I spoke at length with the then minister about my concerns of being in a theological leadership situation while having a conflict on this matter. In the end, it was resolved that as long as I didn't cause divisiveness on the issue, I could serve, which I have done. In fact, our two children were baptised. I did this because, while I don't really think this was the proper teaching for baptism, it is the proper teaching of our church, and, being only symbolic, to participate was not an issue of theology, but one of fellowship.
So, I think that a difference of opinion, or even theology can be overcome. However, if the church changed their theological stance on an important issue (that is, to a stance which I think is not more than just not supported Biblically, but which is actually contrary to Biblical teaching), I would have to remove myself from the church.
To give an example, and trying to find one that is not a Dead Horse limits the choices, but if our church started teaching that Jesus did not physically rise from the dead, I would find that to be impossible to accept. In that case, I would resign as an elder and leave the church immediately. The same would apply if I changed my theological stance on this issue.
I often disagree on things like music styles and programs offered in the church, but these, for me, are not sufficient for me to even think of leaving, although others have left over them.
In the end, our elders and minister like to know when someone is leaving, and why. It allows for closure, and to know if the reason is one that is attributable to their actions which can be rectified or explained, and also if the person leaving should be contacted. A polite letter explaining, briefly that the reason is theological, and that you think a different church would be more suitable would be most appreciated. At least in my church.
Whatever you do, Wood; where ever you go; find someplace where you can experience the fullness of God's love. Seek peace for yourself, your family and those around you.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
In the end, our elders and minister like to know when someone is leaving, and why.
Sometimes, it is not possible to put into words. So you end up trying to write something, but it ends up being a side issue rather than the real reason, and looks so trite when written down. If it was not too injurious to my health*, I'd suggest arranging an appointment to talk rather than writing a letter. Talking it over might help to tease out real reasons from all the conflicting emotions. (*When it's a case of (physical / emotional / spiritual) abuse, eg. then a personal one-to-one discussion is not to be recommended!)
I was given the advice, 'Take someone you trust with you'.
[ 25. January 2011, 14:43: Message edited by: Chorister ]
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Another friend changed church after just 3 or 4 months. He is a career music teacher, decided to start going to church again, went to the denomination of his youth expecting to volunteer help with either children's choir (which had folded) or handbell choir (which needed a new leader). But the music director (who is famous for running off competent musicians) forbade this guy to do anything musical except sing in the choir. My friend said nuts to that and is now at a different church where he has started both a children's choir and a handbell choir. (The handbell set was sitting unused in the church storage room.)
It is policy, and one of the few that I agree with in my diocese that people must have been attending church for a while and become known before they become involved with children's ministry. I don't think one should expect to turn up at church as an unknown and start running a children's choir.
A valid concern in a large city, or anywhere the person new at the church is unknown. In this tiny town, where this career music teacher taught many of today's young parents, he was well known before he walked in the door.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Another friend changed church after just 3 or 4 months. He is a career music teacher, decided to start going to church again, went to the denomination of his youth expecting to volunteer help with either children's choir (which had folded) or handbell choir (which needed a new leader). But the music director (who is famous for running off competent musicians) forbade this guy to do anything musical except sing in the choir. My friend said nuts to that and is now at a different church where he has started both a children's choir and a handbell choir. (The handbell set was sitting unused in the church storage room.)
It is policy, and one of the few that I agree with in my diocese that people must have been attending church for a while and become known before they become involved with children's ministry. I don't think one should expect to turn up at church as an unknown and start running a children's choir.
A valid concern in a large city, or anywhere the person new at the church is unknown. In this tiny town, where this career music teacher taught many of today's young parents, he was well known before he walked in the door.
Irrelevant. Most church leaders would want to spend some time getting to know a new congregation member before they allowed them to take on a position of responsiblity. Even if they have previous experience, their style and outlook might not work in that particular church situation.
If they wanted to work with children, they would also need a full Criminal Records Bureau check and some training before they could start. That protects both the church and the individual.
Tubbs
[ 25. January 2011, 15:14: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Although we in the Free Churches don't have the cure of souls in a parish, the lack of peoples' faith around our churches (buildings) still breaks our hearts.
I'm sure you are right in that - although don't necessarily equate "Evangelical" and "Congregational"!
I was wasn't using the terms in a strict sense. Rather referring to a particular culture that exists in some evangelical churches that are gathered congregations.
It is almost as if congregation and pastor own one another and feel easily betrayed. If anything it reminds me of the relationship between parents and teenagers.
Plenty of Anglican Evangelical churches have the same culture. I am sure churches of all traditions have it in some way.
Don't get me wrong. Lots of people stuff in church does cut me - and outside. Sometimes it is the things the people who don't come to church say that hurt the most. The Daily Mail's comments on the CofE probably sum them up best.
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blog//twitter//
linkedin
Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
In the end, our elders and minister like to know when someone is leaving, and why.
Sometimes, it is not possible to put into words. ... Talking it over might help to tease out real reasons from all the conflicting emotions. ...I was given the advice, 'Take someone you trust with you'.
I wrote a simple letter "I am resigning from membership in this church" because I thought that was more polite than just disappearing. Clergy person asked me to come in and discuss it, saying he was curious because he had never received a letter like that before - but I was to come during office hours, which meant I had to take vacation time from work (huge cost to me, we only get ten days) to see him at his convenience for his benefit.
The discussion consisted of him telling me I was following the devil if I left.
But think about it - if the reason for leaving is at all due to theological differences, isn't it normal for each side to think the other is just plain wrong and not listening to God? Unless they've been on the Ship or otherwise discovered that significant differences are normal. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I obviously wasn't thinking clearly, that I gave up precious vacation time to discuss what, a decision I had made after weeks of long serious prayer? I wouldn't do that again - take time off from work to go in to the office for not my benefit. A friend there might have helped quiet the tone of the "discussion" but what friend would take time off work to go with me on a non-emergency?
For someone on shift work or unemployed, "come in during office hours to discuss it" might be a more reasonable request, for an employed person it is not.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
In response to Belle Ringer Re 6 month rule: I disagree. I think it is important that the vicar/minister knows the person and how they interact with others in the church. Personality clashes are bad news. Egos can be bad news. That's without even asking why things stopped in the first place and who might be hurt by them restarting.
And you shouldn't make exceptions when it comes to child protection issues. It sets a bad precedent.
[ 25. January 2011, 15:43: Message edited by: Jenn. ]
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
In response to the original post, and also a bit to Chorister's:
quote:
I'm interested in how couples and families make their decisions, compared to individuals who have only themselves to think about.
this is something I've pondered on a few occasions over recent years. I still attend the fellowship I grew up in, having failed to maintain escape velocity in geographical/work terms and landed back in my 'home town'. Over the last 10+ years (actually, probably 20+ years in some ways!) I've had various deep frustrations with aspects of it all. Some are on-going, some are resolved, and some are simply consigned to the dust-bin of history as ships that have sailed, for good or ill.
In that time I've been on the formal leadership, and involved in relatively significant ways outside of the formal leadership. I've agitated, argued, debated, listened, prayed, participated, liaised, bridge-built (not necessarily in that order) seen the error of my ways in places and worn a hole in the desk banging my head against it in others.
Probably only twice in all that time have I really come close to thinking "This is so far from how it should be, I need to bail for my own sanity and integrity". The things that have held me in place have been a mixture of seeing the possibility for (good) change in the future; a recognition that a lot of other really good stuff was going on; Mrs Snags not really fancy making anywhere else local her permanent home (not sure how much of that is theological, how much style, and how much social awkwardness); and finally, knowing that whilst moving from fellowship A to fellowship B might deal with issue X, there were a whole load of things at fellowship B that would drive me equally mental in a few months/years.
All of that said, I would be off like a shot if I found myself with a profound, fundamental disagreement with the leadership in core theology or practical outworking and was prevented from expressing such in an atmosphere of mutual 'respect' and recognition. To date we've had a reasonable record of at least allowing, acknowledging and giving some time to genuine dissent, even if the upshot has been "Yes, well, I hear what you're saying, but ...". If it ever came down to "My way or the highway" I'd register my disappointment, and start packing my bags.
Of course, I've been lucky enough to be in a position where the things that have lost me sleep etc. have still been things that allowed me to contribute constructively to the whole, and the head/wall incidents haven't been totally binary.
From working issues through and staying, I can appreciate a lot of Wood's angst on coming up against an issue where, having worked things through, staying is no longer an option ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by five:
And the issue that broke your back is a tricky one that's been hacked to death (and Dead Horses). You may have a hard time finding a church that fully accepts what you need them to, as there are very few that are out there professing the inclusion of gay couples, and often those that are are in the "love the sinner, hate the sin" category.
It depends on where you are. I know straight off of at least three churches in my city which are entirely in favour of including gay couples. Admittedly two are in the same Anglican parish. At one point we had two gay church sub-wardens and then it was one gay sub-warden and one gay treasurer. If Wood lives in a city, then he's probably got similar choices available to him.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
I have a cure of souls for an area where most people do not have a practised faith. That breaks my heart.
Isn't that rather a presumption? Who gave you it? Did the people assent?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jenn.:
And you shouldn't make exceptions when it comes to child protection issues. It sets a bad precedent.
Never, ever cut corners when it comes to child protection. The music teacher may be ok in school but if he's a paedo on the prowl its part of a common tactic to have a "cover" in one part of life. It masks something very different that emerges in a context where checking is less rigorous because of what's seen elsewhere.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by five:
And the issue that broke your back is a tricky one that's been hacked to death (and Dead Horses). You may have a hard time finding a church that fully accepts what you need them to, as there are very few that are out there professing the inclusion of gay couples, and often those that are are in the "love the sinner, hate the sin" category.
It depends on where you are. I know straight off of at least three churches in my city which are entirely in favour of including gay couples. Admittedly two are in the same Anglican parish. At one point we had two gay church sub-wardens and then it was one gay sub-warden and one gay treasurer. If Wood lives in a city, then he's probably got similar choices available to him.
Carys
It's probably wise to remember that there's another side to this: some would leave (and have left) churches that became more welcoming to gay couples.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
I don't trust my ministers to view my words sympathetically. I do not trust them.
This, all by itself, is legitimate reason to leave.
How can you be pastored by a voice you do not trust?
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
...people must have been attending church for a while and become known before they become involved with children's ministry. I don't think one should expect to turn up at church as an unknown and start running a children's choir.
A valid concern in a large city, or anywhere the person new at the church is unknown. In this tiny town, where this career music teacher taught many of today's young parents, he was well known before he walked in the door.
Irrelevant. Most church leaders would want to spend some time getting to know a new congregation member before they allowed them to take on a position of responsibility. Even if they have previous experience, their style and outlook might not work in that particular church situation.
If they wanted to work with children, they would also need a full Criminal Records Bureau check and some training before they could start. That protects both the church and the individual.
I'm curious - I guess this is a tangent - how do churches handle vacancies? This person left a paid position due to budget cuts, volunteers picked up that work at his church including a never set foot in that church or denomination before organist, my friend sought to volunteer in the church across the street, then landed a paid position in a different church in a different town.
And note that he was willing to do handbell choir, not insisting on children's choir. Do churches disband Children's choir, adult choir, handbell choir, organ playing when someone leaves, instead of recruiting someone new to the congregation continue them?
Anyway, we don't have the mandatory criminal checks you do, instead we have liability for hiring someone who we should have known is a danger to others, and structural awareness like glass doors plus never closing doors to a room where an adult and child are together (or a man and woman). And yes the guy spent time with the pastor discussing the music program.
Anyway, back on topic, it was intended as an example of someone leaving a church because the significant gifts he had to offer that many a church longs for were rejected. The rejection was not "until we get to know you" but the music director resisting competency in others. He is known throughout the town for running off a number of excellent musicians.
Some might say my friend should have stayed there and found secular ways to use his musicianship, that having his useful-to-churches talents rejected was insufficient reason to leave. Instead he went and found a church that wants what he has to offer.
The issue wasn't "wait a while til we get to know you," the issue was "we have a music director who will never allow you to help even where the director is failing to do it all."
But in general USA churches are eager to involve people. I've known people to land on Vestry who have been in this country only few months! I've known people to start a Bible study within weeks of arriving at a church.
All it takes is a quick chat with clergy about what your plans are so the clergy know if it's way off base or reasonably OK. Then the Bible study leaders make their own child care arrangements for the moms in the group. Fast, fluid, inexpensive. Safe because the moms hire friends to babysit the kids, which may not be perfectly safe but it's as safe as any criminal check would be.
We are a nation of movers, if you make people wait a year before they can be involved, they will have become involved in community activities and not have time for church activities, newcomers jump into things fast to start making friends.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
But think about it - if the reason for leaving is at all due to theological differences, isn't it normal for each side to think the other is just plain wrong and not listening to God? Unless they've been on the Ship or otherwise discovered that significant differences are normal.
A lot depends on the reason for going. If you're leaving your church because you've come to the conclusion they 'don't preach the gospel', or the BVM is being sidelined, or they preach against gay sex, you're not likely to find much agreement from the vicar on the point of obvious difference. But if you're leaving your church because there's no youth club for your teenager, or creche for your baby, or Sunday morning pick-up service for non-drivers, you might actually find the church leader agreeing with you!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
And note that he was willing to do handbell choir, not insisting on children's choir. Do churches disband Children's choir, adult choir, handbell choir, organ playing when someone leaves, instead of recruiting someone new to the congregation continue them?
It's likely that because there's such a culture of police checks now, there would be a few other adults in the choir or in the church leadership who would have the necessary CRB checks, too. Otherwise, I guess the choir would continue to meet as they normally do to rehearse or sing with everyone exercising the (hopefully!) usual common sense about being alone with children.
The point of the choir master's CRB check is in case, given his position of authority over the children, he is alone with the kids for rehearsal at any time.
With regard to the point about it being a handbell choir - if it is an adult handbell choir with no possibility of children being part, I suppose no CRB checks would be required (if it were in Britain). But for mixed groups of adults and kids anyone in a leadership position, or potentially in a position where they would be one-to-one with a child, would probably be expected to be police checked.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
Speaking as a Pensioner, I realise that our needs and requirements change as we age. Most churches target one group of people eg young families.
I am getting into quieter and quieter services, with no singing and lots of silences.
So I feel its quiet normal to change churches..its no big deal. And you're not betraying anyone.
Pax et Bonum
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
All it takes is a quick chat with clergy about what your plans are so the clergy know if it's way off base or reasonably OK. Then the Bible study leaders make their own child care arrangements for the moms in the group. Fast, fluid, inexpensive. Safe because the moms hire friends to babysit the kids, which may not be perfectly safe but it's as safe as any criminal check would be. [/QB]
Um. No. Not as safe as a criminal record check and screening policy.
I have been directly involved in cases where criminal abuse occurred because of this type of thinking and while I apologize for the tangent, can't let that go.
We are a church. We will protect the vulnerable by requiring screening of caregivers and by having a culture among clergy and leaders that appreciates and minimizes the risk that they assume.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
Speaking as a Pensioner, I realise that our needs and requirements change as we age. Most churches target one group of people eg young families.
I am getting into quieter and quieter services, with no singing and lots of silences.
So I feel its quiet normal to change churches..its no big deal. And you're not betraying anyone.
Interesting comment, life journey. If a particular person is charismatic or evangelistic for a decade or two, then traditional liturgical for a while, then said service or contemplative prayer gathering, but local churches to specialize in one of these, one's own best spiritual journey might take that person through more than one church. Another person might better staying with one of these through life.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
I just wanted to add that sometimes the reason for leaving a church is not because there is any problem with the church you are attending it is simply because you feel that your gifts are needed some place else.
I once left a church that I liked very much, and which had many talented people in active ministry to go to a struggling church who I felt were more in need of my gifts. It was a good decision, although hard at the time. I believe I was a real help to the new church.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Might I say that, as a Minister, I feel desperately sad when someone leaves the church - especially if they have not felt that they can come and talk to me, or write me a letter, about it. That is not so I can try and emotionally blackmail them out of leaving - that would never be my aim. But such a lack of communication shows that, somewhere along the line, that the pastoral relationship hadn't worked out as it should. And that is a failure on the church's part, or of mine.
Furthermore, it would be very helpful to know the reasons that someone feels they must go, so that we can correct deficiencies and oversights before they affect someone else. Clearly, the issues might be theological ones that are incapable of resolution - although in my experience it has more often been issues of worship style or perceived hurt that have been more common (I say "perceived" because some people have unrealistic expectations of what the church can do for them and how it must bend over backwards to accomodate all their preferences and opinions!)
But there is more to this. As a minister - what sometimes used to be quaintly termed an "under-shepherd" of the flock - I find that I am personally hurt when someone leaves. I suspect that many ministers, especially those in "sole charge" of a church, feel the same: their whole life and ministry are inextricably intertwined, they can't just sit back and let the congregation's problems wash over them.
Accuse me of being too possessive and emotionally involved, if you like; but when someone leaves - especially if the reasons seem trivial - it is like an arrow shot into my heart.
I feel very much the same way. I don't want to try to talk someone out of leaving, but I would like to try to amend if I've caused hurt. Also, if there was a way to shore up deficiencies in other areas, I'd want to know what it is.
If there are theological differences, then maybe a move is just "one of those things" and is for the best in the long run.
Comet and Wood have both made me realize why a letter may not be the best response. I do understand; I've been in that place, myself. I can't help but wonder, in that co-dependent way I slip into, what I've done to hurt people so deeply that they never tell me why they left... or whether it even had anything to do with me (especially since UM pastors move every 5 years or so).
I'm thinking of the time I resigned a choir and declined invitations to return. I even talked to the director about some of my difficulties, because I appreciate knowing the(sometimes painful) truth. In the end, I just made up an excuse, and chalked it up to the choir just not being right for me. Though there was a high attrition rate, plenty of folks had been singing in it for years and years and liked it just fine. They got a good audience, too.
So... I'm saying that I really can understand now that I think about it (and now that these 2 recent threads have addressed it).
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The fact that no one understands you does not make you an artist.
(unknown)
Posts: 2767 | From: half-way up the ladder | Registered: May 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Bible study leaders make their own child care arrangements for the moms in the group. Fast, fluid, inexpensive. Safe because the moms hire friends to babysit the kids, which may not be perfectly safe but it's as safe as any criminal check would be.
Um. No. Not as safe as a criminal record check and screening policy.
I have been directly involved in cases where criminal abuse occurred because of this type of thinking and while I apologize for the tangent, can't let that go.
We are a church. We will protect the vulnerable by requiring screening of caregivers and by having a culture among clergy and leaders that appreciates and minimizes the risk that they assume. [/QB]
Not disagreeing on need to protect the vulnerable, which is more than children.
But, criminal abuse happened by someone who was already convicted of that kind of abuse, and lifelong friends didn't know? How did that happen? That's what I'm describing, Moms hiring as babysitters for Bible studies women they grew up with, or hiring each other's 12 year old girls to babysit. Is that dangerous behavior? A man who has been in the local school system for decades - i.e. regularly criminally checked for everything , not just sexual abuse - and no unexplained gaps in his presence in this small community where everyone knows everyone else's name. Is hiring him or letting him volunteer dangerous behavior? I really do want to know.
Seems to me six months sitting in a pew and helping with pot lucks or lawn care isn't going to flush out a careful predator with no criminal record.
(The sex offender list is free on line. I've checked out all my neighbors, one is on the list.)
Personally I think any man who works with children is taking a huge risk if he works in an area without video cameras to protect him from false accusations. Lets protect the kids AND their adult workers!
FWIW, Handbell choir is adults only.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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