|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: What one might consider an adequate reason to leave a church
|
lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
|
Posted
Have replied by pm so as not to continue the tangent. But simply, a well understood and implemented screening policy is a must for all churches. The cost of not screening is too high.
[ 25. January 2011, 19:09: Message edited by: lily pad ]
--------------------
Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
frin
Drinking coffee for Jesus
# 9
|
Posted
I think that the child protection questions maybe need their own thread.
Going back to the question, the big reasons for leaving would be:
1) the church is causing hurt - to me or to others.
2) I am causing the church hurt
3) If I have stopped worshipping God while attending worship in that place.
This list is not dissimilar to Eutychus' list on the first page. I have been friends with people who left the church over reason 1 and on reflection reason 3 was significant when I decided to leave the church I talked about earlier. The big challenge then becomes coping with the knowledge that people who are important to you are still at that church and don't see, or rate as highly, the problem that led you to your decision to leave.
'frin
--------------------
"Even the crocodile looks after her young" - Lamentations 4, remembering Erin.
Posts: 4496 | From: a library | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
Letters of any kind are a bad idea IMHO and IME.
Once written, it can end up anywhere with anyone who knows little about the context of the letter itself.
I'd suggest a meeting
1. On neutral ground
2. With an independent chair or observer
3. Bring a friend
4. Make sure you pray together before and after
5. Be ready to forgive
6. Be prepared to lsiten, not fight a corner: who really is "right?" Honesty at all times
7. Most issues of this kind centre around the 3 P's of dispute - principles, practice and preference. Few fall into the 1st IMHO - some fall into the last 2 and they are hard to shift as by the time the discussion starts most are pretty far gone
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
|
Posted
Within months of starting ministry in my first appointment (loast year)I had to face the issue of a church group meeting to prayer for Israel in a manner that actually involved praying that palestinians and Arab nations be smited a la OT.
In facing up to it and telling them that they could not meet in our name or on our premises as it was contrary to our denominational stance on the issue [useful separation that it is not about my opinion alone] we had some members later leave the church.
The group leader and his wife, who had always been difficult characters and other members were all but scared of, stayed for a while staring me down ('not going to be pushed out of the church by new person, young, woman, and just out of college')but as boycotted everything I led or was at and people glad that someone had stood up to him they finally left - no word, just returned thier keys to the treasurer. In fact refused to speak to me in the street or at funerals etc. I only clipped his wings re that group but it was a relief to the whole congregation when they left.
Another member of the group was torn between loyalty to this man who had been a study leader to her for years and the church roots (plus small town, limited options and no car) However a denominational report some months later made her decide to leave us.
I visited her, we chatted, I asked about where she would go and concerned that she found fellowship somewhere, we prayed for each other and I prayed that she would find and settle well in a new place.
We speakk when we meet and she is happy to share in midweek things when the times suit. She knows she is welcome to come back but that she will not be pushed.
Disagreement shouldn't stop me wishing them well in their future places, though in the former case it invovled praying for the new church as well! But for anyone going the move, the conflict, it is painful and was keen to know they had pastoral support even if I could not be the one to offer it because our relationship was too damaged.
--------------------
http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
If they wanted to work with children, they would also need a full Criminal Records Bureau check and some training before they could start. That protects both the church and the individual.
Records checks do a lot less that people generally think, and you indicated this. But it tweaked me to add some specifics.
If someone has a criminal record then they will turn up a positive record and can be screened out. However since the vast, vast majority of sexual and related crimes against children are never reported and never prosecuted, it misses these people who may in fact be more dangerous because they are better at hiding their behaviour and at not getting caught.
Thus churches must do their diligence beyond the paper work that pleases lawyers when defending lawsuits against church after the fact: supervise the volunteers, have sufficient volunteers so that they are seldom all alone, provide briefing and orientation info that includes the sexual harassment and abuse policies both discussed and in written form, and check references. This last one - 'check references' is absolutely vital, and may tell you much more than the records check. Of course those doing the work in checking volunteers and orienting them must have excellent orientation and training themselves. It is quite typical that social workers and police will be more than happy to help in this regard, ask, and the worst that can be said is 'no, too busy'.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
In the life of any church, even the most excellent one, people leave from time to time, and new people arrive.
I don't think the clergy need bust a gut with worry every time an individual or one family leave their church. It happens. Better to accept it and give those departing their blessing.
They might, however, do well to worry if 50 people leave at once or in a very short space of time. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
I've been reading this with mixed feelings because of what happened to my family long ago and my guilt at not answering the letter asking if I wanted to continue my membership, having missed 6 communions. I thought it was perfectly obvious that I wouldn't be after my mother was hauled up before a selection of deacons like Rabbie Burns for no clearly defined reason - except that it concerned her work with the children. I was guilty about not answering because it was one of the decent folk, and I could not say to her what I wanted to say, so I said nothing.
I was going to say nothing here, either, but seeing that post about having a meeting and making sure it started with prayer, I felt I had to. That deacons' meeting started with prayer - and my mother felt she was being prayed at aggressively. If you can make the prayer a time to bring concerns before God in silence, fine. But if it is to be spoken, then the minister/pastor/priest will expect to lead it, and it could be putting a weapon into his hand. (Mostly his, I expect, but her if appropriate - the nastiest deacon was female.) If trust has already gone, then behaving as if it hasn't won't help.
I have also been thinking about what Colin Firth said about his attitude to political parties. He moved from Labour to LibDem, and has now left them. He said that he has not moved in what he believes, but that the parties have moved from where they stood. If it feels that the church has done that, then leaving is what you need to do.
Penny
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Traveller
Shipmate
# 1943
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
If you can make the prayer a time to bring concerns before God in silence, fine. But if it is to be spoken, then the minister/pastor/priest will expect to lead it, and it could be putting a weapon into his hand.
That is the best analysis and description of a situation that I was in some years ago. I postponed a requested meeting with the priest to a time after I knew I would have left, because he (yes, a he) had become adept at extempore prayer imploring the Holy Spirit to action his own prejudices and preferences. Any sort of mildly different viewpoint then becomes disobedient to God. Spiritual blackmail via the weapon of prayer.
--------------------
I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live:
I will praise my God while I have my being.
Psalm 104 v.33
Posts: 1037 | From: Wherever the car has stopped at the moment! | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Clemency
Shipmate
# 16173
|
Posted
I've left two churches (other than by geographical moves); both were painful happenings, one fairly instant, one more long drawn out. The first was when the new minister at a rural Baptist church suddenly got into serious fundamentalism and heavy shepherding, and for all sorts of reasons became unlivable with. Half the congrgeation left and we formed a 'new fellowship'; the first years of that were great, and a learning experience. Fifteen years on something I would never have preducted happened - the leadership changed tack; one 'spiritual' guy came in and got their ear. 'We have decided to relieve you of the responsibility for decision-making' was the phrase used in one meeting, and 'the church is not a democracy' on several occasions. No argument, no discussion, on one occasion I was told 'I'm sorry, but that is just the way that it is'. What had been an 'us' became an 'us-and-them'. These folk were, or had been, our brothers, sisters and friends. we left as gently as possible (as did most of the fellowship) but of our relationships with those who had stayed could never be the same. It still hurts; I don't think this sort of scar is one you ever really lose. If you think about it theologically - us being the Body of Christ and all that - it gets scary. But, then again, Paul and Barnabas split up, didn't they?
Five years on, I am not only an Anglican but a Reader. That is something else I would never have envisaged.
--------------------
Who knows where the Time goes?
Posts: 90 | From: Northumberland, UK | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
eeGAD
Wandering Stowaway
# 4675
|
Posted
Wood, my heart aches for you during this difficult time. It sounds like you have been presented with a very strong question of What Do You Believe? And do you believe it enough to put those beliefs into action?
Leaving a community is never easy, be it by choice or relocation. You have memories, and hopefully friends. Those that know you are trying to live the best Christian life for Wood, will be sorry to see you go, but will wish you well on your way, and hopefully keep in touch.
However, for those that practice things that are hurtful to you, or that you find in conflict with your beliefs, you have two choices. Fight or Flight. And sometimes after a long fight all that is left is flight.
Follow the path that you belief God wants for you. Hopefully that path will help you find some peace.
Two questions for you to ponder:
First - regarding the loss of your tithe to the parish income if you leave - Would you donate funds to a charitable organization that did not practice what you in your heart feel is right? If the answer is "no", then why do you worry about removing your tithe from a church that preaches against what you believe? Could those funds be donated to an organization that helps promote your Christian ethics?
Second - regarding The Letter - What do you wish to achieve with this letter? Don't answer right away. Just think about it.
Who are you writing it for, the rector or yourself? Or the congregation as a whole?
I hope my 2 cents have helped you think about things perhaps from a different perspective.
Keep us up to date on your journey. I wish you well.
-eeG
--------------------
You don't fix faith. It fixes you. - Shepherd Book
Posts: 976 | From: The Land of Mary | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
|
Posted
Some congregations just aren't good fits for people. Over the years we've lost a few families to some ueber-conservative congregations in other traditions...my pastor says he'd much rather that these people be happy Baptists than unhappy Lutherans.
--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
frin
Drinking coffee for Jesus
# 9
|
Posted
I remember a lengthy disagreement with a person I was working with on a project which ended with a kind of working resolution which was unpicked by praying aloud together afterwards, and a summary of the situation before God to which one of us could not assent.
Praying together is great. Except when it isn't.
'frin
--------------------
"Even the crocodile looks after her young" - Lamentations 4, remembering Erin.
Posts: 4496 | From: a library | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
Wood, to change tack completely (although I've just discovered there are shades of it in Clemency's post above) - are you sure you're not receiving the beginnings of a call to ordination? No hear me out, before you fall off your chair in a fit of mirth. Those stirrings of questioning and dissatisfaction with the easy life of the status quo, the awareness of how the church (sometimes) treats others, and the wish to proceed with caution and care. That's often how it starts, or so I've been told.
It may be very early days, and you have a family to bring up. But think about it.
And one day in the distant future, if I really was wrong, then you can laugh at me. Lots.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
|
Posted
Alan Creswell, I think there is more than one strand to this thread and I may very well have picked up some things from some posters which you did not and vice versa.
Wood, I think I understand where you are personally coming from and respect it.
I have spent a great part of my adult life travelling. Perhaps I stayed in a place for 8 or 13 years and then moved on for further study, work or family. Unlike friends of mine who've been born and lived in Melbourne all their adult lives, I haven't. I've led a rather peripatetic existence. My children have gone to different schools in different places and have been brought up to be what I consider good moral people who made their own religious and other choices. So I have never brought them up as continuing members of a bricks and mortar church, though there are interest groups I belonged to which may or may not have influenced them.
One of the major influences in my own religio-spiritual formation was the Society of Jesus, once seen as the bright, shining equivalent of the Brigade of Guards in the Catholic Church. I was asked if I would consider joining them when I was much younger. It was, I believe, a singular honour, not lightly bestowed. Suffice it to say I did not take it.
My religious pilgrimage has taken me elsewhere, but, when I think of 'the church' I think of 'the Church' as an institution much, much larger than St Mumbles of the Crossways.
I can understand people wanting, or being forced to, leave a discrete church. Often it boils down to a matter of personalities. It makes me very sad that many clerics and members of congregations are often so stiff and unbending in their attitudes and behaviour.
There are also reasons where people feel that they cannot take a certain doctrinal position or practice and must move on.
--------------------
Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by eeGAD:
First - regarding the loss of your tithe to the parish income if you leave - Would you donate funds to a charitable organization that did not practice what you in your heart feel is right? If the answer is "no", then why do you worry about removing your tithe from a church that preaches against what you believe? Could those funds be donated to an organization that helps promote your Christian ethics?
No, I can't in my heart feel it's right. But for all that, it's hard -- it's a Baptist church. These men, not bad men at all, will have their lives made harder by our not being there.
quote:
Second - regarding The Letter - What do you wish to achieve with this letter? Don't answer right away. Just think about it.
Who are you writing it for, the rector or yourself? Or the congregation as a whole?
I feel I owe them some explanation, but I am not sure they want one.
Mrs Wood is seeing the pastor's wife this morning at the mums and tots group. She will tell her, given the chance. I suspect that I may not have to write anything.
Like I said. I'm already dreading the phone call.
--------------------
Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Wood, to change tack completely (although I've just discovered there are shades of it in Clemency's post above) - are you sure you're not receiving the beginnings of a call to ordination? No hear me out, before you fall off your chair in a fit of mirth. Those stirrings of questioning and dissatisfaction with the easy life of the status quo, the awareness of how the church (sometimes) treats others, and the wish to proceed with caution and care. That's often how it starts, or so I've been told.
It may be very early days, and you have a family to bring up. But think about it.
And one day in the distant future, if I really was wrong, then you can laugh at me. Lots.
A few years ago, I might have agreed with you, or at least have thought, maybe she has a point. But I think that ship has sailed, frankly.
I don't have that sort of call on my life. I'm pretty certain on that.
[ 26. January 2011, 10:03: Message edited by: Wood ]
--------------------
Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
|
Posted
Wood, you do not owe anyone at your ( soon to be) former ekklesia any sort of eksplanation, apologia or whatever.
As others have already said, you may be loading someone else's gun.
If you want to begone, just shake the dust off your shoes and begone.
In a week the management will have forgotten.
m
--------------------
quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
In a week the management will have forgotten.
I remember a good friend (one of a few who were able to treat me the same whether I went to her church or not) saying to me a few months later, 'You are "Old News" now'. It was helpful to hear.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
|
Posted
What a thread! The lack of support for Comet, Bib, and others, when they really needed it, added to the down right frightening stories like Clemency's, make me shudder.
I changed churches a few years ago and although I had determined to say nothing about the old church, I found it hard to do. People would ask if I was new in town and I would have to answer, "No, we've lived here ten years." Then they would give me a, "So where have you been?" look and I would end up saying that I had been going to Church X but they had a new minister who had been there for eight months with no communion and I missed it. The sweet Lutherans would smile and say, "Well. We have it every Sunday."
That was more gossip than I had intended to spread but it beat saying, "The minister is dumb as a rock, gets his sermons from Paul Harvey's radio spots, spreads false rumors as facts, tells the congo to vote Republican in a very unsubtle way, allowed a newbie church hopper to take over the music program (thereby running off the long serving lead singer, choir director and organist) before hopping off to another church and, lastly, had decided, against the denomination's stance, to boycott apportionments to the Conference because they had a gay employee."
I love my new church but just this year they've been having meetings to discuss the Dead Horse Issue. At least the discussions have been kind and thoughtful but the end decision didn't agree with me.
My very wise old pastor told me to sit tight, that he had seen churchs go through this sort of thing before, where everyone was adamantly against some social change one year, and five years later, society itself had caused a change in everyone's thinking so that the new policy seemed like a no-brainer.
I thought of this last night when I watched Glee a US TV show where the main character is the most lovable young thing since Bambi -- and gay. A whole generation of teens are following this show and the idea of excluding him from any church will seem horrible to them --and they'll be on the church board in a few years.
[I hope this isn't too Dead Horsie. I'm just saying whatever side one takes on this issue, it soon might not be an issue at all.]
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by eeGAD:
First - regarding the loss of your tithe to the parish income if you leave - Would you donate funds to a charitable organization that did not practice what you in your heart feel is right? If the answer is "no", then why do you worry about removing your tithe from a church that preaches against what you believe? Could those funds be donated to an organization that helps promote your Christian ethics?
No, I can't in my heart feel it's right. But for all that, it's hard -- it's a Baptist church. These men, not bad men at all, will have their lives made harder by our not being there.
quote:
Second - regarding The Letter - What do you wish to achieve with this letter? Don't answer right away. Just think about it.
Who are you writing it for, the rector or yourself? Or the congregation as a whole?
I feel I owe them some explanation, but I am not sure they want one.
Mrs Wood is seeing the pastor's wife this morning at the mums and tots group. She will tell her, given the chance. I suspect that I may not have to write anything.
Like I said. I'm already dreading the phone call.
Not harder, different. When one of the elder’s in Mr T’s church felt called to go and serve as a missionary in Romania, the church was left with 36 jobs to fill. Some they filled, and others they had to leave vacant.
If you accept the whole idea of the Christian life as being a journey, there will be some places and people that you’ll be with for a long time and others are just for a season. Based on what you’ve said here, it doesn’t sound like either you or they have done anything majorly wrong. It’s more that you’re both heading in different directions spiritually and the two are mutually exclusive.
Do whatever you feel is right to ensure that you leave on good terms and don’t carry unwanted baggage with you and start looking elsewhere. It might take a while before you find the right place, but IME you’ll know when you do.
Good luck with it all.
Tubbs
--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
birdie
fowl
# 2173
|
Posted
Wood! Long time..
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
So we're starting with churches in walking distance. We're going to join the Anglicans for a bit.
Some of the people who posted here years ago when I got my 7,000 posts would find that ironic.
I snorted, I admit it.
Anyway. I've been thinking a lot about this thread since you posted.
In your OP you mention the possibility of theological issues and relational issues. I think for me, I could probably live with problems in one or other of those areas, but if they both went wrong I'd be wondering why I was still there. (ETA: ...and in general I am with you on your view of church hopping.)
In some ways over the last few years I've moved away from the theology my church teaches. But I've stuck with it, because I have good friends there who (mostly) accept my Slightly Disappointing Dodginess*, when I choose to let them know about it. I have extended family there, my kids have grown up there. They have prayed for my kids when they have been very ill and supported us in practical ways. For me that has been enough to keep me there, sitting at the back and rolling my eyes during some of the preaching.
Last year the church had a real crisis, of the 'pastor leaves wife for church member' variety. For the first few months, I was really impressed with how it was all being handled; people really pulled together and it all looked promising. Since then though, in various ways, the relational side of it all has started to go tits up, and I'm very aware that if that falls apart, staying there is not going to be doing me, my husband or our kids any good. And that's heart-wrenching.
I don't know if there's a similar thing happening in your situation, but maybe it's a more chicken & egg situation. You've become more out of step, as you put it, with the teaching/theology side of it, which has perhaps affected the way people relate to you (having to finish doing the student work etc). So if the relational side has gone a bit wrong, you're more likely to feel that enough's enough when it comes to the particular theological issue at hand. Does that make sense?
b
*thanks to Chalky, years ago, for this phrase.
[ 26. January 2011, 13:46: Message edited by: birdie ]
--------------------
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness."
Captain Jack Sparrow
Posts: 1290 | From: the edge | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
But for all that, it's hard -- it's a Baptist church. These men, not bad men at all, will have their lives made harder by our not being there.
...
I feel I owe them some explanation, but I am not sure they want one.
...
Like I said. I'm already dreading the phone call.
Your primary responsibility is the spiritual care of yourself and your family and you're taking this decision after careful deliberation. That's your prerogative.
IME, the Holy Spirit often speaks though the many voices and actions of His children. Your decision to leave the congregation, taking your family's participation and contribution to the pocketbook perchance speaks volumes to the leadership that words set down on paper could not nearly express so cogently.
Ultimately, they are in His care; not yours. Your responsibility is towards the resources you've been given stewardship of - no more, no less.
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
tomsk
Shipmate
# 15370
|
Posted
We moved churches recently. There was no children's provision (or other children) at our church. We felt that church being 'normal' was important for them to grown in faith. Unlike Alan C, once we settled on a new church, and mini-tomsk was getting a lot from her group (micro-tomsk can't yet sit up so the need's less pressing), we felt affirmed in the decision we had made. Our family circumstances had changed and the church we were in no longer met our family needs, and in our circumstances the best way to meet that need was through moving church.
I think there's a difference between moving churches to meet a need or to use gifts, and leaving because of relational/spiritual/theological problems (away from vs towards?), in that the latter has ingredients to make it more painful.
Theological differences of the first order can simply be irreconcilable and the reality may be that people can no longer be in fellowship together. What we believe can affect how we behave, and it may be something that one party believes affects salvation. In such cases it may be best to recognise this and move on.
We wrote a letter (we'll Mrs tomsk did, coward that I am), and the priest came round for a chat. It was short, general and tried to be positive about the church. You might find that helps with a sense of closure or orderly departure. Going into great detail and/or having a meeting might be a good idea if you feel that would help but from what you've said that might cause more pain. Once you've left, it's best to leave the battles behind rather than taking them with you so it might help to close that in some way.
Things change. I pray you find somewhere suitable. Don't feel bad about the tithes, the life of the church will continue.
Hope Mrs W's conversation went well.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posts: 372 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Some congregations just aren't good fits for people. Over the years we've lost a few families to some ueber-conservative congregations in other traditions...my pastor says he'd much rather that these people be happy Baptists than unhappy Lutherans.
Some congregations just aren't good.
They are the sort of churches which always seem to be there but that's about it. They never seem to keep a pastor very long .... and the reasons for their departure are rarely referred to. Dig a bit deeper and you find that not only do the pastors turn round pretty often, most of the members are very long serving because new attenders also turn round pretty often. They aren't exactly made welcome .... and often at the bottom of it all is someone like LC's Lilian who sees it all as "My church."
Yes you can come and help but it's not on God's terms.....
On another point, I've only ever moved church owing to job moves. On reflection there's one church where I should have wiped the dust off and gone, rather than wait for another job to come up. My relationship with the Pastor never got off the ground, even though I was in leadership.
He had an unfortunate habit of using his position inappropriately, using what he claims were conversations his kids overheard to call people to account. A trainee pastor left after a row, leaders resigned but I stayed put. I was miserable and wished I hadn't as I became the next target after the trainee. Trouble was if you challenged him a) you were touching god's anointed and b) if you had FACTS that he didn't he woukld quickly back track and say "I thought I heard/saw ..." instead if "I heard/saw..."
[One occasion was hilarious: he wanted to chat to me about going to a pub and drinking. Interesting when I wsn't even in the country that week....]
he left and had 4 pastorates in 10 years in 3 countries .... when he leaves it's always someone else's fault. Hmmmmmm I wonder ...... and btw this isn't afreaky set up just a mainline uk denomination
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iGeek:
IME, the Holy Spirit often speaks though the many voices and actions of His children. Your decision to leave the congregation, taking your family's participation and contribution to the pocketbook perchance speaks volumes to the leadership that words set down on paper could not nearly express so cogently.
Ultimately, they are in His care; not yours. Your responsibility is towards the resources you've been given stewardship of - no more, no less.
OK, that's a fair point.
A minister friend of mine in whom I had confided is quite firm on the point that I should leave a letter though. His point is that if I give them a reason, they have no cause to make up one.
I'm not sure I'd credit them not to make one up anyway.
--------------------
Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
I have a cure of souls for an area where most people do not have a practised faith. That breaks my heart.
Isn't that rather a presumption? Who gave you it? Did the people assent?
a) Yes.
b) It is shared with the Bishop, given by Christ.
c) A remarkable number. Until I do something to upset them.
Yet despite that is doesn't bother me too much that lots of people head off to other churches on a Sunday, some of which openly deny many essentials of the apostolic faith being oppressed by such heresies as Calvinism, Anabaptistism, Memorialism, Charismatic Restorationism and Hymn Sandwichism.
Having said that, this week I have felt protective over someone who has died in the parish. But that is more an issue of lack of communication.
--------------------
blog//twitter//
linkedin
Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Trouble was if you challenged him a) you were touching god's anointed.
[/QB]
Very bad model of ministry.
I may be Christ at the Altar, but I am not Christ when we are discussing what colour the new chairs should be at the back of Church.
Although sometimes I wish I could be.
--------------------
blog//twitter//
linkedin
Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Trouble was if you challenged him a) you were touching god's anointed.
.....I am not Christ when we are discussing what colour the new chairs should be at the back of Church.
Although sometimes I wish I could be. [/QB]
Lol! I agree - but what makes you think that you are Christ at the altar? isn't chair choice spiritual too?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
For what it's worth (not much maybe), I sent a letter two months ago when my family had all but made its mind up to seek a call to another congregation. The issue had to do with loveless behavior on the part of the leadership. Mr. Lamb felt we'd done enough confronting (and that isn't his preferred style anyway) but I figured I owed something more to the Matthew 18 process before we and ours picked up and disappeared.
So I sent a letter, focusing on the one main issue and written with major prayer and as irenically as possible. I figured that would be it, and we'd be gone. I was rather shocked to get an urgent request to talk it over with the two leaders in question, me and Mr. Lamb (NOT a tribunal, more of a coffee with conversation). And they repented. We're taking baby steps toward a better way of getting along together, and there are still issues. But I'm glad I sent the letter, no matter how things turned out. (I'm also glad I didn't expect anything to come of the letter, so often nothing does.)
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
I have a cure of souls for an area where most people do not have a practised faith. That breaks my heart.
Isn't that rather a presumption? Who gave you it? Did the people assent?
a) Yes.
b) It is shared with the Bishop, given by Christ.
c) A remarkable number. Until I do something to upset them.
Yet despite that is doesn't bother me too much that lots of people head off to other churches on a Sunday, some of which openly deny many essentials of the apostolic faith being oppressed by such heresies as Calvinism, Anabaptistism, Memorialism, Charismatic Restorationism and Hymn Sandwichism.
Having said that, this week I have felt protective over someone who has died in the parish. But that is more an issue of lack of communication.
I'm intigued (really) by your understanding of your cure. Are you the only one called to have that cure or does it apply to the "dangerous heretic" priests of anabaptism???
It's an on the ground thought for me: the church of which I am a small cog is non anglican, yet with an anglican church in this village and also the next, the locals see Mark Tabernacle as "the village church." Is our minister/leader/pastor whatever he's called muscling in on the Anglican guy?
I think we'd rather disagree on a Bishop's authority to do anything other than pastor but I felt that way even when I was in the Anglican Communion.....
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Lol! I agree - but what makes you think that you are Christ at the altar?
Because it's the theological position of his particular branch of the church that he is. He's not just being vainglorious. He's using the accepted phrasing to describe what a priest does (which, granted, to an outsider, can often feel alien and bizarre, but is actually a theological position with history and that).
--------------------
Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Lol! I agree - but what makes you think that you are Christ at the altar?
Because it's the theological position of his particular branch of the church that he is. He's not just being vainglorious. He's using the accepted phrasing to describe what a priest does (which, granted, to an outsider, can often feel alien and bizarre, but is actually a theological position with history and that).
Thanks Wood!
I think I understand that position but don't really engage with it for the following reason.
I can't discriminate being at the altar or at the coalface, in the car or on the cricket pitch, As a believer I'm asked by God to offer a sacrifice all the time. Thus Philippians 2:13 "continue to work out..."
All of life is supposed to be an offering of worship and sacrifice. Sure Eucharist/Communion/Lord's Table/Love Feast is special as it is a communal act of proclamation, engagement and remembrance -- but it's not the only thing that Christ asks us to do ....
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by iGeek:
IME, the Holy Spirit often speaks though the many voices and actions of His children. Your decision to leave the congregation, taking your family's participation and contribution to the pocketbook perchance speaks volumes to the leadership that words set down on paper could not nearly express so cogently.
Ultimately, they are in His care; not yours. Your responsibility is towards the resources you've been given stewardship of - no more, no less.
OK, that's a fair point.
A minister friend of mine in whom I had confided is quite firm on the point that I should leave a letter though. His point is that if I give them a reason, they have no cause to make up one.
I'm not sure I'd credit them not to make one up anyway.
A letter gives closure, but all you need to tell them that you’re going, not why. The danger in giving too much information is that you can end up sounding like you’re trying to justify yourself to them and you really don’t have to do that. (As iGeek has so elegantly pointed out already). Keep it simple:
“After much prayer, the Wood family feels that the Lord is calling us to move to another church and explore new spiritual directions. We are grateful for our time here and will miss our many friends, but we are also excited about the future. God bless … blah, blah … Goodbye and thank you for the fish”.
What the leadership do with that is up to them. If they’ve got any sense, they’ll leave it there. If they make something up … Well, it’s their arse the Lord will be kicking for giving false testimony. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I also snorted at the fact you’re going to be at the local Anglican for a bit. In exchange, I offer you the nugget that Mr T is in his final year of Baptist ministry training. Feel free to snort away at my expense in return!
Tubbs
--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
I also snorted at the fact you’re going to be at the local Anglican for a bit. In exchange, I offer you the nugget that Mr T is in his final year of Baptist ministry training. Feel free to snort away at my expense in return!
Tubbs [/QB]
Snort? Depends on which college! We ALL know that there's only one real Baptist College, the rest are but shadows, spirits, smoke in the wind
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
I also snorted at the fact you’re going to be at the local Anglican for a bit. In exchange, I offer you the nugget that Mr T is in his final year of Baptist ministry training. Feel free to snort away at my expense in return!
Tubbs
Snort? Depends on which college! We ALL know that there's only one real Baptist College, the rest are but shadows, spirits, smoke in the wind [/QB]
Tubbs is referring more to our respective histories here. Back in the day — we're talking like nine or ten years ago here — I came across as a very firm, strident, forceful free church evangelical who got into many arguments with Anglicans both sensible and idiotic. From my posting history back then, one might consider me the Poster Least Likely To Turn Up at an Anglican Church.
In fact, I was never like that. But you play to your reputation sometimes.
--------------------
Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
|
Posted
Oh dear. As a minister, I would just hate, hate, hate to have a letter from a 'moving' parishioner. I'd feel like I was being dumped by text! But that's just me .
I'd be bound to take it horribly personally, whether it was meant to be so or not.
I would so much rather it was done over a chat and a cup of coffee just so I could see the face and demeanour of the person going and reassure myself that I hadn't done their faith some permanent damage and they were running away to get away from me! Insecure of me? You bet!
But I think it's quite natural for people to sometimes move churches, having done it twice myself - very amicably, no fireworks. And a letter would suggest that something negative was behind the move. I admit though, I'm desperately paranoid at times. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
I also snorted at the fact you’re going to be at the local Anglican for a bit. In exchange, I offer you the nugget that Mr T is in his final year of Baptist ministry training. Feel free to snort away at my expense in return!
Tubbs
Snort? Depends on which college! We ALL know that there's only one real Baptist College, the rest are but shadows, spirits, smoke in the wind
Tubbs is referring more to our respective histories here. Back in the day — we're talking like nine or ten years ago here — I came across as a very firm, strident, forceful free church evangelical who got into many arguments with Anglicans both sensible and idiotic. From my posting history back then, one might consider me the Poster Least Likely To Turn Up at an Anglican Church.
In fact, I was never like that. But you play to your reputation sometimes. [/QB]
I know you weren't, but this could be seen as evidence of God's very wicked sense of humour. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
ExclamationMark, he is at the college that is named after the people's preacher. Is that the one you mean?
Tubbs
[ 27. January 2011, 13:33: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
|
Posted
My church-leaving story:
My family and I had been members of a small pentecostal church going on 8 years in urban San Diego. A new pastor came along. Shortly, I realized that he had strange ideas. Whereas the former pastor had encouraged me in my educational and career aspirations, the new pastor expressed concern. I recall one conversation where he warned me about the dangers of temptation to take up with a "painted" female secretary (so off-base -- he should have warned me about my hot male co-workers). In the end, I sussed that he was misogynist, anti-education and wasn't comfortable with people who didn't express absolute certainty about their faith.
We ultimately bought our first home in an area that made it further involvement with that church logistically challenging. We took the opportunity to take our leave and ended up taking a sabbatical from church for about a year. It was wonderful and life-giving.
I never explained to the pastor why we were so glad to leave. I don't think he had the capability of taking it on board.
The church shut-down within 5 years and doesn't exist anymore.
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I'm intigued (really) by your understanding of your cure. Are you the only one called to have that cure or does it apply to the "dangerous heretic" priests of anabaptism???
Oh its the hymnsandwichites who really concern me! All that Hymn / Prayer or reading stuff is vain repetition of the worse kind!
Where I am the ecumenical context is somewhat limited unless you count the JW's. Which I don't. However in another environment yes of course the cure is shared as much as people are willing to be part of it. Certainly in my last Parish many people were nominally Methodist rather than nominally Anglican.
So I think that in your context you should be working together.
Now there is a problem here that relates to how we deal with out theological differences. I have close friends that believe different things on lots of different sides of different theological fences. This is fine while we are not working together! Where problems occur ecumenically or within a congregation is how those things get applied.
In general I try not to be reactionary. And I try to make the point to my more evangelical friends that even though they may consider me pastorally 'liberal' in certain areas I consider them equally or more theologically revisionist in others.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I think we'd rather disagree on a Bishop's authority to do anything other than pastor but I felt that way even when I was in the Anglican Communion.....
How do you feel about Restorationism's Apostles. The difference between ++Rowan and ++Terry strikes me as down to kit and actually authority and power. Rowan has more of the former and Terry more of the latter.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Lol! I agree - but what makes you think that you are Christ at the altar?
Because it's the theological position of his particular branch of the church that he is. He's not just being vainglorious. He's using the accepted phrasing to describe what a priest does (which, granted, to an outsider, can often feel alien and bizarre, but is actually a theological position with history and that).
Thanks Wood!
I think I understand that position but don't really engage with it for the following reason.
I can't discriminate being at the altar or at the coalface, in the car or on the cricket pitch, As a believer I'm asked by God to offer a sacrifice all the time. Thus Philippians 2:13 "continue to work out..."
All of life is supposed to be an offering of worship and sacrifice. Sure Eucharist/Communion/Lord's Table/Love Feast is special as it is a communal act of proclamation, engagement and remembrance -- but it's not the only thing that Christ asks us to do ....
You are of course theologically correct. But I was making the point that just because people respect my sacerdotal role doesn't mean that I am 'untouchable God's anointed'. The sacrament of Ordination does not mean that I get every pastoral, personal or managerial decision correct . Which can be how 'Leadership' is seen in some peoples eyes.
The opposite error can be where those God has called are completely stripped of the authority to lead and become chaplains to congregations. Although in a rural setting there has to be a balance between lay leadership and ordained leadership in each community.
--------------------
blog//twitter//
linkedin
Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tubbs:
ExclamationMark, he is at the college that is named after the people's preacher. Is that the one you mean?
Tubbs {/QUOTE]
It most certainly is .... was there a few years ago myself lol
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Oh dear. As a minister, I would just hate, hate, hate to have a letter from a 'moving' parishioner. I'd feel like I was being dumped by text! But that's just me .
I'd be bound to take it horribly personally, whether it was meant to be so or not. - I'm desperately paranoid at times.
Why are we (ministers) so often like this? It doesn't strike me as professional or pastoral or godly.
Shouldn't we have it beaten out of us at college?
--------------------
blog//twitter//
linkedin
Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
1. So I think that in your context you should be working together.
2. How do you feel about Restorationism's Apostles. The difference between ++Rowan and ++Terry strikes me as down to kit and actually authority and power. Rowan has more of the former and Terry more of the latter.
3. ....my sacerdotal role doesn't mean that I am 'untouchable God's anointed'. The sacrament of Ordination does not mean that I get every pastoral, personal or managerial decision correct . Which can be how 'Leadership' is seen in some peoples eyes.
Thanks Edward!
1. What if the theological gulf is too wide? the envy (of a growing cong) too great? The unwillingness too severe aka hatred of all things non anglican?
2. I don't give any credence to John Virgo. Never did like his way of playing snooker. Did he beat Rowan then?
3. I wouldn't understand a whole of life witness to mean that. Like you I accept the need for a balance between autocracy and democracy. Whatever your gift is - use it - but not at anyone's expense and for God's glory.
I'm not convinced either (sorry!) that ordination is a sacrament (a grace if you like). It's more than a job or vocation - it's the public recognition of certain giftings and perhaps we should all have a rite to ordain every saint!
I'm not restorationist and the only sandwich I'm interested in is cheese and pickle....
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
ExclamationMark, he is at the college that is named after the people's preacher. Is that the one you mean?
Tubbs
I never knew there was a famous preacher named Bristol. Just fancy ...
I also went to said establishment. But I prefer to refer myself as an alumnus of King's College, London (which I am also) - unless it's to prove my credentials in certain Baptist environments.
Long live the Blessed St. Nigel of Ansdell.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
Wood, I seem to remember you posting once that you used to attend a CofE church when back in Creamtealand on visits. So it's not so odd....
Back in the days of our youth, I'm sure many shipmates - like me - used to visit all sorts of churches, even if only to establish that you really do want to stay with the one you already attend. You're maybe just doing it a little later than some.
From tomorrow onwards, you can visit the archive of edition no. 7714 of the 'Church Times' and search for the title 'Why the Church should be more like poetry'. It's an article by Revd. Rachel Mann (poet-in-residence at Manchester Cathedral), which might interest you.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Oh dear. As a minister, I would just hate, hate, hate to have a letter from a 'moving' parishioner. I'd feel like I was being dumped by text! But that's just me .
I'd be bound to take it horribly personally, whether it was meant to be so or not. - I'm desperately paranoid at times.
Why are we (ministers) so often like this? It doesn't strike me as professional or pastoral or godly.
Shouldn't we have it beaten out of us at college?
I think you're confusing how I would feel with what my active response would be. And I don't particularly want to have beaten out of me that part of me that keeps me humble and reminds me of the responsibility I have as a church leader, despite my failures and flawed-ness.
Though I would be quite happy to lose the paranoia! Don't think a couple of years in college is going to do that though, do you?
I'm pretty sure that to have a partial response of 'have I done something wrong? Am I responsible for someone's bad experience of Church?' is actually more of a positive thing in a church leader than otherwise. I genuinelly would want the leaving person to feel as positively as possible about their move and to be as encouraging as I could be.
Not entirely sure why you see this as being unpastoral and ungodly.
And I believe that, bearing that in mind, one is less likely to have a truly helpful and thorough dialogue on such a thing via the hit and run method of a letter. Mind you, I suppose there are some ministers one would not like to sit down with and say 'I'm going because of.......'. And the letter method is probably so much less demanding and less stressful in those situations. I can understand that.
I think I would still prefer to be spoken to rather than addressed through the post like a public corporation! That's how I would approach it if I were moving on; and is in fact how I did approach it when I did move on from two previous churches as a worshipper. But then in those places the clergy involved were friends, or at least, known to me pretty well, and I wouldn't have dreamt of writing them a letter under any circumstance when just popping over and saying 'hi, this is what I'd like to talk about...' was so much more natural and effective.
I appreciate that's not everybody's option.
[ 27. January 2011, 16:20: Message edited by: Anselmina ]
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
But in general USA churches are eager to involve people. I've known people to land on Vestry who have been in this country only few months!
I know this kind of thing happens, and happens frequently, but in most cases I think it's not a good sign of organizational health.
If someone shows up and starts making "what do I have to do to get on Vestry? How long do I have to wait?" noises, I would immediately start seeing red flags all over the place. Does not play well with others, has a personal agenda, etc.
And for the organization to tap a six-month's newbie for a top management role ... yeah, I know there often aren't volunteers, but that's bad both from a potential "volunteer burnout" standpoint (too much/too fast), and also, it's not enough time for it to shake out to see if Newbie really "plays well with others", especially once given actual power. God knows I've seen lots of "nice" people turn "not-nice" once they get some (even small) authority.
As a data point, six months' participation at my parish is the theoretical cut-off for VOTING in the annual meeting.
I can think of limited circumstances under which it would be ok - I'm thinking of our former Senior Warden who moved back to Blighty and probably got tapped early on in his new parish because he is an organizational/management genius (and has great references, personal and professional).
quote:
I've known people to start a Bible study within weeks of arriving at a church.
One of these things is not like the other. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) This kind of thing is a much better IMO "way to get involved" for a new person.
--------------------
WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Oh dear. As a minister, I would just hate, hate, hate to have a letter from a 'moving' parishioner. I'd feel like I was being dumped by text! But that's just me .
I'd be bound to take it horribly personally, whether it was meant to be so or not. - I'm desperately paranoid at times.
Why are we (ministers) so often like this? It doesn't strike me as professional or pastoral or godly.
Shouldn't we have it beaten out of us at college?
But immensely human - and we can't get that humanity taken out. Even if self awareness helps us manage our outer reactions professionally we are still vulnerable to our weaknesses
--------------------
http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
Anselmina posts:
quote:
I think I would still prefer to be spoken to rather than addressed through the post like a public corporation! That's how I would approach it if I were moving on; and is in fact how I did approach it when I did move on from two previous churches as a worshipper. But then in those places the clergy involved were friends, or at least, known to me pretty well, and I wouldn't have dreamt of writing them a letter under any circumstance when just popping over and saying 'hi, this is what I'd like to talk about...' was so much more natural and effective.
I appreciate that's not everybody's option.
It wasn't in my case, as the cleric involved has a temper and had also developed an approach of delegating unpleasant (to him) meetings to a committee of "elders." In any case, my letter was unacknowledged and unanswered, and sources have informed me that the reasons for my departure were ... misinterpreted...
When dealing with dysfunctional and abusive personalities, formal confrontation of their superior to engage a review process is sometimes the only way. This was one of those circumstances, and I fault myself for not having done so much earlier. The whole episode, which featured several years of misrepresentation and (let's call it) intellectual dishonesty, has done much to undermine my trust in the clergy as such-- although I still retain much respect for individuals.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I think I would still prefer to be spoken to rather than addressed through the post like a public corporation! That's how I would approach it if I were moving on; and is in fact how I did approach it when I did move on from two previous churches as a worshipper. But then in those places the clergy involved were friends, or at least, known to me pretty well, and I wouldn't have dreamt of writing them a letter under any circumstance when just popping over and saying 'hi, this is what I'd like to talk about...' was so much more natural and effective.
You are obviously not a natural letter writer then. I am. If I have something important to say to someone (especially if it is potentially unpleasant), I don't trust myself to get it right face to face. I would rather write it down, considering my words carefully. Then after the letter or email has been sent, perhaps just then I might be willing to discuss it. But if its something difficult and unpleasant, like leaving a church, I would really rather just leave it at that.
This applies within the family as well - I have been known to email my husband or my kids when I wanted to say something important and uncomfortable for instance, its not just reserved for ministers. Although I certainly have and would use this method in a church situation. For someone like me it is better than talking face to face, at least as a starter.
(Interestingly, I sometimes also prefer to receive difficult news in written form, rather than delivered verbally. That way one can skim to the end to take in how it ends, then digest it slowly at ones own pace.)
I think that those ministers who say they want to know why people are going, in order to be assured that they will not continue to make the same mistakes with others, are almost certainly not the same ones that people may feel unwilling to talk to.
--------------------
Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
You are obviously not a natural letter writer then. I am. If I have something important to say to someone (especially if it is potentially unpleasant), I don't trust myself to get it right face to face. I would rather write it down, considering my words carefully. Then after the letter or email has been sent, perhaps just then I might be willing to discuss it. But if its something difficult and unpleasant, like leaving a church, I would really rather just leave it at that.
This applies within the family as well - I have been known to email my husband or my kids when I wanted to say something important and uncomfortable for instance, its not just reserved for ministers. Although I certainly have and would use this method in a church situation. For someone like me it is better than talking face to face, at least as a starter.
(Interestingly, I sometimes also prefer to receive difficult news in written form, rather than delivered verbally. That way one can skim to the end to take in how it ends, then digest it slowly at ones own pace.)
I totally agree with this ... writing a letter seems like the kindest and most natural way to break bad news to me, because it's the way I feel most natural giving and receiving news. It didn't even occur to me that the recipient might find a letter cold and impersonal, and prefer a face-to-face talk (something I would find almost impossible).
Tangentially, Gracious Rebel, I am just the same as you about receiving news in print as well. Twice in the last year we've had the misfortune of having a colleague die suddenly at my place of work. The first time it happened my boss couldn't find my phone number and apologized profusely for having to deliver such sad news via email. The second time, he woke me in the early morning with a phone call, and I was left in shock trying to think of something appropriate to say, thinking "Why couldnt' you have put this in an email?!?!?"
I can only extrapolate from this that if I were in a position of leadership in a church and someone wanted to let me know why they were leaving, I would much rather receive a letter than a phone call or visit -- but clearly not everyone's the same. One of those cases where the Golden Rule doesn't seem quite adequate.
--------------------
Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
