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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: What one might consider an adequate reason to leave a church
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I wrote a Dear John letter to the church of my childhood when I jumped the fence to another Lutheran church body. At the time I was very angry and frustrated with my childhood denomination, of which my hometown congregation was like a highly condensed, extra-strength version -- and even though I hadn't been back to the old home congo except for Christmas Eve for several years, and didn't even know its new pastor, I felt it necessary to effect some closure to this chapter in my spiritual life.
But I didn't want to come off as too strident or angry, especially since my parents were members. So I wrote a very polite letter asking to have my name taken off their roll because I had become a member of a congregation in [what is now the ELCA]. I added some mild statement about finding my new church home a more authentic reflection of my beliefs, but left it at that. And I thanked the congregation for the quality of my religious formation.
No one ever contacted me from my old church, nor did anyone mention the letter to my parents.
For me it was an important way to formally end my affiliation with this congregation/denomination and get on with my spiritual life. Had I simply slunk away, I'm not sure I wouldn't have carried more mental baggage about it for a longer time.
On the other hand, at another point in my life I became very angry with the Church, big C, and because of it became an ever-more infrequent worshipper at my then-church. But I never really told anyone why. That eventually led to a several-year Christianity hiatus. Maybe if I'd expressed myself, even in a letter (I'm not too good with face-to-face confrontation), someone might have been able to address some of my frustrations.)
[ 27. January 2011, 18:48: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
1. What if the theological gulf is too wide? the envy (of a growing cong) too great? The unwillingness too severe aka hatred of all things non anglican?
2. I don't give any credence to John Virgo. Never did like his way of playing snooker. Did he beat Rowan then?
3. I wouldn't understand a whole of life witness to mean that. Like you I accept the need for a balance between autocracy and democracy. Whatever your gift is - use it - but not at anyone's expense and for God's glory.
I'm not convinced either (sorry!) that ordination is a sacrament (a grace if you like). It's more than a job or vocation - it's the public recognition of certain giftings and perhaps we should all have a rite to ordain every saint!
I'm not restorationist and the only sandwich I'm interested in is cheese and pickle....
1. I have seen this not work several ways. Even between Churches who are pretty much doing the same thing the same way. Sometimes I think it is more to do with personalities than theology,
2. Rowan won but Benedict took the final. Ask
Captain Sensible
3. In a sense we probably share a similar view of leadership with different language and sacramental understanding. Both are along way from 'Don't touch God's Anointed'.
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Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I think you're confusing how I would feel with what my active response would be. And I don't particularly want to have beaten out of me that part of me that keeps me humble and reminds me of the responsibility I have as a church leader, despite my failures and flawed-ness.
No.
It is how we all feel.
I was being self critical and you were in the crossfire.
The problem really is how we react when wounded.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I've known people to land on Vestry who have been in this country only few months!
in most cases I think it's not a good sign of organizational health.
quote:
I've known people to start a Bible study within weeks of arriving at a church.
One of these things is not like the other. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) This kind of thing is a much better IMO "way to get involved" for a new person.
Tee hee, some might say the opposite, that someone on vestry with off-base ideas can be voted down on every proposal and rendered harmless, but a Bible study leader with off-base ideas can do a lot of harm.
I guess there are no easy or consistent answers to church in a mobile society.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Katherine777
Apprentice
# 15517
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Posted
Wood, I'm so glad you started this thread-- I've been reading with interest.
I'm on the side of those who say don't write a letter. Write something ahead of time if you want a way to think through your ideas and test the delivery, but say what you need to say in person and make eye contact. Your voice and body language will speak volumes about how you feel and convey your sincerity in a way even the best letter can't. Plus, some people (maybe not all) will see it as insulting if you know them well but deliver this news in an impersonal way.
I have not yet left a church, but have really thought about it. If I leave, it will be because I just feel lost... it's been about 2 years and the social component of it is like inviting yourself to someone else's party over and over again. I'm really not sure if a) I just don't belong there for whatever reason, b) people are just really busy and distracted, or c) this is a normal experience for everyone from time to time. Things I can envision to get more connected haven't really worked out-- everyone is super friendly but there is no depth (yet?). But the nice thing is I'm pretty sure no one will really notice if I decide to go, so no letters or difficult conversations! I'll stick with it a bit longer though...
One other comment though, about your reason for leaving-- it's admirable that you're considering such a major change in your life on principal (one with which I wholeheartedly agree), but why is this difference an absolute breaking point? Did it get personal in some way and wasn't handled well? You might in some ways be in a unique position to hold a different view and explain and advertise your position in a loving and reasonable way to people who don't often hear that particular message. Though emotionally challenging, it's much more noble than being someone in my shoes, who is more or less surrounded by people with similar social opinions. Do you think the leadership can change?
Posts: 10 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2010
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iGeek:
Your primary responsibility is the spiritual care of yourself and your family and you're taking this decision after careful deliberation.
To some extent. And to friends, especially Christian friends. I can't see how I could regularly attend church unless any of my friends who would want to come to church at all with me would be able to attend.
I have stopped going to some churches and started going to others. I think that in each case either I haven't felt I had any roots in the church I was leaving, or else I was moving out of the area altogether and so didn't really have a choice about continuing at the same church. So I don't have much to contribute in the way of personal testimony.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Katherine777:
I have not yet left a church, but have really thought about it. If I leave, it will be because I just feel lost... it's been about 2 years and the social component of it is like inviting yourself to someone else's party over and over again. I'm really not sure if a) I just don't belong there for whatever reason, b) people are just really busy and distracted, or c) this is a normal experience for everyone from time to time. Things I can envision to get more connected haven't really worked out-- everyone is super friendly but there is no depth (yet?). But the nice thing is I'm pretty sure no one will really notice if I decide to go, so no letters or difficult conversations! I'll stick with it a bit longer though...
I'd agree with your reason (c) that this is a normal experience for everyone occasionally but if it's been like that for two years then I'd sure be thinking about leaving! Everyone being super friendly is great but I think more is needed, and if you're not feeling included (despite your best efforts) then maybe it is time to move on.
A vital part of the Christian experience is, in my view, having a group of close companions with whom you can share pretty much anything - all your troubles, fears, triumphs and dreams for the future. If that's not happening with people at my church, then where else...?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Katherine777:
Wood, I'm so glad you started this thread-- I've been reading with interest.
I'm on the side of those who say don't write a letter. Write something ahead of time if you want a way to think through your ideas and test the delivery, but say what you need to say in person and make eye contact. Your voice and body language will speak volumes about how you feel and convey your sincerity in a way even the best letter can't. Plus, some people (maybe not all) will see it as insulting if you know them well but deliver this news in an impersonal way.
I don't think I could stand a sit down. Much of the advice I am getting now from friends suggests having a sit-down, but I can't bring myself to even contemplate that.
The problem is, I might get angry. And when I get angry, I get... mean. I think it has to be a letter.
It doesn't help that there's a lot of hurt and pain and a massive lack of trust that aren't actually the reasons for leaving (if they were, I'd have gone years ago. BTW, my ceasing to be a prolific poster on SoF around 2004-5 and my problems with my church bursting out like cancers on my faith at much the same time are not wholly unconnected). I don't want to go into those things.
quote:
One other comment though, about your reason for leaving-- it's admirable that you're considering such a major change in your life on principle (one with which I wholeheartedly agree), but why is this difference an absolute breaking point?
Because I owe it to my friends. They're gay. They get this sort of shit every. single. day of their lives, and it matters that someone stands with them.
quote:
You might in some ways be in a unique position to hold a different view and explain and advertise your position in a loving and reasonable way to people who don't often hear that particular message.
Put it this way: I was run out of student work because they didn't want a student worker who was friends with progressives.
I have tried. For years. It hasn't worked.
quote:
Do you think the leadership can change?
No.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Wood: Because I owe it to my friends. They're gay. They get this sort of shit every. single. day of their lives, and it matters that someone stands with them.
In that case, it wouldn't take much soul-searching for me to leave the church, no matter how long I'd been there. I'd be out before someone could say "Leviticus".
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Wood: Because I owe it to my friends. They're gay. They get this sort of shit every. single. day of their lives, and it matters that someone stands with them.
In that case, it wouldn't take much soul-searching for me to leave the church, no matter how long I'd been there. I'd be out before someone could say "Leviticus".
Quite. I'm not proud. I'm ashamed it took me so long.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Nothing to be ashamed of.
We are all creatures of habit, and we all crave approval; especially if we believe that we have been effective in our ministry, whatever it might have been.
Least of all from the Almighty, it seems..
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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chalky
Shipmate
# 143
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Posted
It's probably all been said, but... sounds like it is a bit of a combo, rather than just a single issue. If the church was more like what I would consider to be healthy, your progressive connections and 'differences' to the general run of convictions in the church would be open, part of a conversation regarding the mystery of faith, and you would not be, or feel, 'run out'.
I say 'what I would consider to be' because I know there are those who would feel that 'party lines' should be everything, and that taking a strong stand on single issues is positive. Personally I reject that. However, I think there CAN be possible for churches with particular 'party lines' to accommodate (or even welcome) dissent within; it should be OK to challenge or disagree without having to feel (or be) rejected by the church. I think church communities are far better served by leadership who are able to accommodate (or better still, present!) differing points of view, and be clear about why they hold to the one they do.
In the absence of that accommodation, if your considered convictions are unwelcome, you are in effect unwelcome. What a very devastating process to realise that - and particularly difficult when the church is not only represented by its leaders, but by everyone who is part of it, some of whom doubtless love, appreciate and learn from your contributions both as people and as thinkers (I am including Mrs Wood in this, I don't know the woodlets well enough to comment!!). A necessary but utterly shitty thing to have to do. This kind of echoes what Birdie said (and probably others!) about the relational and theological reasons. Probably a lot of your relational stuff is good, but the theological stuff (and the relational stuff with leaders, by the sounds) makes it impossible to stay.
Birdie, you are welcome to the phrase! I think being out of step with the general theology can be absorbed, accepted and even encouraged (uber healthy). Whatever the 'party lines' or the Generally Encouraged Views, knowing dissent or questions or depth is supported rather than rejected is important. And I think that certain church cultures are more given to Ousting By Disapproval, which is basically a silencing tool, which is in my opinion potentially abusive. Which is not something to hang around in, really.
So Wood I would say it is of course good to stay if you can, not just because leaving is so painful, but because things change, and being part of something can support positive change (both for the church and for yourself). So, good on you for sticking for ages and ages after the going had got tough, and also good on you for knowing when to draw the line. I don't think the situation calls for regrets on either count; it wasn't necessarily going to go this way, but it has, so you can only do what you gotta do now. I for one am really, really looking forward to you hanging out with the anglicans ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 409 | Registered: May 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Hi Chalks. I didn't thank you for your helpful and perceptive post before.
quote:
Originally posted by chalky:
It's probably all been said, but... sounds like it is a bit of a combo, rather than just a single issue. If the church was more like what I would consider to be healthy, your progressive connections and 'differences' to the general run of convictions in the church would be open, part of a conversation regarding the mystery of faith, and you would not be, or feel, 'run out'.
Well... yeah, OK. But if that simple closedown of dialogue and lack of honesty was the thing to make me give up on the place, I would have left a long time ago. I didn't. In the end, it had to be the principle.
quote:
I say 'what I would consider to be' because I know there are those who would feel that 'party lines' should be everything, and that taking a strong stand on single issues is positive. Personally I reject that. However, I think there CAN be possible for churches with particular 'party lines' to accommodate (or even welcome) dissent within; it should be OK to challenge or disagree without having to feel (or be) rejected by the church. I think church communities are far better served by leadership who are able to accommodate (or better still, present!) differing points of view, and be clear about why they hold to the one they do.
I think that for some of the people in my church, they can do that. To an extent. on some issues.
FWIW, someone in church confronted the minister who gave the offending sermon on Sunday and he told her that she was wrong. So on Wednesday she bumped into him again, and he asked her if she'd given it any more thought, as in, "have you come around to the truth yet"?
Make of that what you will. But she won't have to leave. She won't be denied communion.
If I was silenced, it was because I was too unafraid to express my views, and did not moderate my talk, and was combative and loud in my viewpoints. They might have been wrong to remove me from where I was, but I was being a bit of an arse.
You know what I'm like when I get going. I have a reputation for being awkward and combative. I rub people up the wrong way. I do. It's me. It's who I am. It doesn't make my problems completely invalid, but I am not sure I deserve all the sympathy I am getting.
Anyway, I am going because my friends couldn't be made welcome as part of that community. And although my decision is informed by the fact that I cannot have an honest dialogue with the leadership, in the end it's the point of principle.
quote:
In the absence of that accommodation, if your considered convictions are unwelcome, you are in effect unwelcome.
Yeah. But I think that I have worked very hard in the last few years to make myself more unwelcome than I could otherwise have been.
quote:
What a very devastating process to realise that - and particularly difficult when the church is not only represented by its leaders, but by everyone who is part of it, some of whom doubtless love, appreciate and learn from your contributions both as people and as thinkers (I am including Mrs Wood in this, I don't know the woodlets well enough to comment!!). A necessary but utterly shitty thing to have to do. This kind of echoes what Birdie said (and probably others!) about the relational and theological reasons. Probably a lot of your relational stuff is good, but the theological stuff (and the relational stuff with leaders, by the sounds) makes it impossible to stay.
Yeah.
quote:
So, good on you for sticking for ages and ages after the going had got tough, and also good on you for knowing when to draw the line. I don't think the situation calls for regrets on either count; it wasn't necessarily going to go this way, but it has, so you can only do what you gotta do now. I for one am really, really looking forward to you hanging out with the anglicans
Some of them are really weird.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
First, a mea culpa. I have hopped around a number of churches in this area; all because of various really important issues. Once was because there were no youth close to the age of one son who was wanting to be involved in a youth group. There was also the fact that there were a number of folks in the church who had no compunction about telling racial jokes.
Well, we would get to a new church and there would be some other problem. The group ethic held that _____ (Sorry, can't use that word. Please excuse me.) those people could not be ministers, etc. Also, there was this guy who went on and on about his sex addiction . . .
Go to another church and the minister is great, but the Sunday School classes are like attending 12 step programs. And so forth and so forth . . .
Churches are collectives of people. People are people, pretty much everywhere they gather; even in places where they are supposed to be on their best behavior. There is always gonna be something objectionable.
Perhaps, as C.S. Lewis suggested, part of the church experience is getting past your issues with individual members (groups) of the congregation and realizing we are all imperfect people trying to find God.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Perhaps, as C.S. Lewis suggested, part of the church experience is getting past your issues with individual members (groups) of the congregation and realizing we are all imperfect people trying to find God.
Well, yes. I think I said that in the OP. But where do we draw the line, then? Where do we stop and say, "enough"?
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I am suggesting you do not draw the line. (Absent the minister removing a mask and revealing horns, a pointed tongue, and a strangely ,luminescent eye. Or, everybody leaving church, donning their klan robes and burning a cross.)
Stay and work at change for the better.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
But where do we draw the line, then? Where do we stop and say, "enough"?
When the prejudice is getting worse, not better.
At our old place, we could ignore it for a while, but it grew and grew.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I am suggesting you do not draw the line. (Absent the minister removing a mask and revealing horns, a pointed tongue, and a strangely ,luminescent eye. Or, everybody leaving church, donning their klan robes and burning a cross.)
Stay and work at change for the better.
God, I wish I felt you were right.
You know, I did. And dear friends who once gave me this advice and did so for years and years have finally said, "OK, you're right, go."
For years. I think that if I do, I will either harm myself and my family or harm the church. It has taken years to come to this decision and I am not happy about it. This isn't about church hopping. It's about the principle.
[ 28. January 2011, 12:23: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Perhaps, as C.S. Lewis suggested, part of the church experience is getting past your issues with individual members (groups) of the congregation and realizing we are all imperfect people trying to find God.
Well, yes. I think I said that in the OP. But where do we draw the line, then? Where do we stop and say, "enough"?
When you can’t think of a single positive reason to be there other than because you always have ... ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Most of us have a deal breaker in church life. If you truely believe that cannot stay in a congregation where the leadership believes and preaches blah, then it's right to go.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
This is a reflection. I won't claim to have read everything above but some.
It seems to mean that what actually is occurring here is a conflict of loyalties. There is loyalty to the congregation and loyalty to your friends. I note your friends aren't making an issue of it, but the dissonance with who they are and who the church is, is.
It therefore may be worth making a point made at my membership service, that was:
- Firstly we are part of the whole body of the Christ, the Church catholic*.
- Secondly we were choosing to be part of a specific branch of the Church catholic i.e. the Reformed tradition
- Thirdly and only after those two, we were coming members of a specific congregation
To decide you can not longer belong to a specific congregation, is not to reject either the tradition nor the Church catholic. This needs holding onto because by walking away from the specific local manifestation of that, we move away also from the immediate manifestation of the church in our experience. It is a rupture in the experience but not in the reality of the Church catholic.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
...I don't think I could stand a sit down. Much of the advice I am getting now from friends suggests having a sit-down, but I can't bring myself to even contemplate that.
...
Whether you write, call, or have a sit-down is up to you. What you want to say is up to you. Advice from friends and family is just that, advice, and you are free to pick and choose what parts of it are right for you.
If you don't want a big deal made of it, probably a letter is best - it provides the opportunity to say what you want to, in carefully chosen words, and to not say what you don't want to, without having to plead the 5th. If you think they know your position and would be unwilling to reconsider their position on the matter, you get to decide whether to raise it or not. Having read this thread, I am guessing they know, or are likely able to assume, what your reason is.
But a letter, or something, as others have said, provides closure - for you and for the church.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
It seems to mean that what actually is occurring here is a conflict of loyalties. There is loyalty to the congregation and loyalty to your friends. I note your friends aren't making an issue of it, but the dissonance with who they are and who the church is, is.
Fair comment.
quote:
It therefore may be worth making a point made at my membership service, that was:
- Firstly we are part of the whole body of the Christ, the Church catholic*.
- Secondly we were choosing to be part of a specific branch of the Church catholic i.e. the Reformed tradition
- Thirdly and only after those two, we were coming members of a specific congregation
To decide you can not longer belong to a specific congregation, is not to reject either the tradition nor the Church catholic.
OK. Yes. I agree.
quote:
This needs holding onto because by walking away from the specific local manifestation of that, we move away also from the immediate manifestation of the church in our experience. It is a rupture in the experience but not in the reality of the Church catholic.
I think this is a very helpful point to make. Thank you.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
As best I can tell no one has yet posted the old chestnut "If you find the perfect church, don't join it. You'll only ruin it."
Sine, I am so glad that you are still here.
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
...I don't think I could stand a sit down. Much of the advice I am getting now from friends suggests having a sit-down, but I can't bring myself to even contemplate that.
...
Whether you write, call, or have a sit-down is up to you. What you want to say is up to you. Advice from friends and family is just that, advice, and you are free to pick and choose what parts of it are right for you.
If you don't want a big deal made of it, probably a letter is best - it provides the opportunity to say what you want to, in carefully chosen words, and to not say what you don't want to, without having to plead the 5th. If you think they know your position and would be unwilling to reconsider their position on the matter, you get to decide whether to raise it or not. Having read this thread, I am guessing they know, or are likely able to assume, what your reason is.
But a letter, or something, as others have said, provides closure - for you and for the church.
I've actually started drafting one.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
At one time I was a regular attender at a tiny rural church. Friendly, local, built into the rhythm of the community. The preaching was challenging, but sometimes we need a challenge. I certainly didn't agree with everything that I heard and sometimes it was uncomfortable, but the congregation was lovely. As the preaching got more hardline and I started to think about leaving, I felt that I didn't want to let them down. There were so few people there on a Sunday and I was the youngest there by about 20 years, so they'd certainly notice my absence. So I stayed.
Until the sunday when we were told (explicitly) that Muslims and Buddhists, Roman Catholics and Anglicans were GOING TO HELL.
It was strongly implied that the only people who weren't on their way down were in that chapel that morning. The following weekend my RC Aunt and Cousin were coming to stay and I knew I couldn't inflict this bigotry on them.
Next sunday we went to a church of the same denomination in town and were warmly welcomed. I stayed for 4 years (until I moved house) and it became a really important part of my faith journey. The preaching was always challenging and often uncomfortable - and I can remember some of the sermons today.
I wouldn't have left if I hadn't been forced to consider my Aunt and Cousin - and leaving was (for me) the right thing to do.
I don't think that we should feel too cosy or comfortable in church neccessarily - but if we feel that we couldn't take a friend or neighbour along, because they may be bullied or picked on, then it may be time to go.
Anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I am suggesting you do not draw the line. (Absent the minister removing a mask and revealing horns, a pointed tongue, and a strangely ,luminescent eye. Or, everybody leaving church, donning their klan robes and burning a cross.)
Stay and work at change for the better.
Not if staying is harming you.
Or if you've stayed and stayed and nothing changes at all.
In a way, his church is putting on the klan hoods.
I have, in a past city, stayed way too long, friends moved as a group to a different church (same denomination), I stayed, became increasingly marginalized because the clergy were increasingly moving to "God is dead or at least unknowable and therefore irrelevant" while I was increasingly moving to "God is intriguing and amazing." The mis-fit did me no good and my presence did the church no good, I would have been much better off at a different church with friends pursuing God in ways I could relate to, and the church would have been unaffected by my departure. I consider my staying at that church a major mistake in my spiritual journey.
There is no perfect church, but there are churches that are a terrible misfit for any one individual.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
There is no perfect church, but there are churches that are a terrible misfit for any one individual.
But it has mostly to be what is right. Rather than about what I want.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Churches are collectives of people. People are people, pretty much everywhere they gather; even in places where they are supposed to be on their best behavior. There is always gonna be something objectionable.
OTOH, there is such a thing as esprit de corps, and some of those corps out there are pretty rotten. A congregation has a collective personality - it's not only an agglomeration of individuals with a name stuck to the door.
(Unfortunately every single congregation is convinced it is "friendly". ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) )
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
The only time I've left a church for reasons other than moving was because I was treated as less than a full member.
A big reason for that was my singleness. When I was in my 20's and single, everything was cool. But when I got well into my 30's and was still single, it became very clear that was held against me.
I did not take that well. And the resulting conflict became so stressful, I asked the leaders of the church to leave in peace. And so I left.
And I still think I did the right thing. God certainly blessed that decision and led me to a much better church for me.
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Someone joined our choir from another church - he was married to a woman priest and sang in the choir of a church where the vicar didn't agree with women priests. It must have been a difficult situation, and I'm surprised he stayed so long.
The vicar said if the CofE elected women bishops then he'd leave. To which the choir man's reply was, 'Well I wish they'd hurry up then!'
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beautiful Dreamer
Shipmate
# 10880
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Posted
There are so many good and insightful posts here that I don't know where to start! I do have a question, though:
Has anyone ever left a church for a reason unrelated to its teachings or theology, only to see that all of that stuff is wrong too? I have, in more than one case. One was when I broke up with someone...it was a long-distance relationship, so once it was over, there was no reason to go back to their (baptistpentefundagelical) church. Since I was then 'at a distance', I was able to see more clearly just *how* wrong and/or harmful the things they taught really were. Some people who know me from long ago or from other forums have heard the story ad nauseum, but a lot of the teachings were of the 'Word of Faith' or "Prosperity Gospel' variety...basically the things Fineline mentioned on the first page. Anyway, that wasn't the only problem. I didn't realize how prejudiced the beliefs were against gay people, people of other religions, etc. before, which I simply cannot deal with. I'm not about to tell my Muslim friends that they're going to Hell or that my gay brother had better 'repent'... ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) Ugh, I never believed this bullshit anyway, but I can't be around people who do, I'm sorry.
I also didn't see how interested they were in pushing people into a box-especially I as a woman. Stupid, I know, but some things look clearer from a distance. The damage to my faith was done. The fact that *I* was just like the woman Fineline mentioned (with an illness) certainly didn't help! I'm much happier now anyway, in a good church and getting the medical treatment I was condemned for seeking.
I didn't mean to say this much but I was wondering if anyone else had left a church for reasons unrelated to beliefs, but later saw how they should have left a long time earlier.
[ 28. January 2011, 19:09: Message edited by: Beautiful Dreamer ]
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More where that came from
Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!
Posts: 6028 | From: Outside Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2006
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Beautiful Dreamer
Shipmate
# 10880
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Wood: Because I owe it to my friends. They're gay. They get this sort of shit every. single. day of their lives, and it matters that someone stands with them.
In that case, it wouldn't take much soul-searching for me to leave the church, no matter how long I'd been there. I'd be out before someone could say "Leviticus".
Quite. I'm not proud. I'm ashamed it took me so long.
Sorry for the double post, but I completely agree with this. This is partly why I chose my current denomination...'Piskies don't teach that crap.
And Wood, I wonder if a compromise might work? Write the letter to get the initial feelings out, don't send it, and then decide from there what you want to do? I'm saying this because I can be pretty irrational when angry, and getting the feelings out in a private setting helps me approach the other person in a more calm and productive way.
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More where that came from
Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!
Posts: 6028 | From: Outside Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I think when it comes to deciding whether to stay and be a force for the better, or go and better yourself--well, you have to keep in mind that you are not the Messiah. You have a breaking point, and it will come earlier than His. Do what good you can, but if you sense that you are about to become a casualty, it's time to get out. A destroyed Christian benefits nobody.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
You are obviously not a natural letter writer then. I am. If I have something important to say to someone (especially if it is potentially unpleasant), I don't trust myself to get it right face to face. I would rather write it down, considering my words carefully. Then after the letter or email has been sent, perhaps just then I might be willing to discuss it. But if its something difficult and unpleasant, like leaving a church, I would really rather just leave it at that.
This applies within the family as well - I have been known to email my husband or my kids when I wanted to say something important and uncomfortable for instance, its not just reserved for ministers. Although I certainly have and would use this method in a church situation. For someone like me it is better than talking face to face, at least as a starter.
(Interestingly, I sometimes also prefer to receive difficult news in written form, rather than delivered verbally. That way one can skim to the end to take in how it ends, then digest it slowly at ones own pace.)
I think that those ministers who say they want to know why people are going, in order to be assured that they will not continue to make the same mistakes with others, are almost certainly not the same ones that people may feel unwilling to talk to.
I've had a chuckle at your conclusion that I'm not a 'natural letter writer! Actually it's because my first response to most things is writing letters and such like that, over the years, I've had to adapt to being more face to face with my communications. I recognize within myself, you see, a tendancy to keep people and problems at arm's length by using letters, memos etc. And I've been challenged on that.
Even now I struggle against decanting as much of my relations with others onto paper (or e-paper) as possible; rather than mediating ideas, instructions, feedback etc to a human face, or even on the phone.
Having said that I generally respond in the first instance in kind to things: eg a phone call receives a phone call, an e-mail gets an e-mail back, a letter gets a written response at least initially, unless the issue is urgent etc.
Look, I'm not saying that in every case a leaver should go to their soon-to-be ex-minister and have a conversation about moving on. I've already said above that there are church leaders with whom one wouldn't want to do this.
In fact, if one is leaving because of the unreasonableness or horribleness of the minister then the best thing, imo, is just to go, no letter, no goodbye. If I were in that position, I would feel no responsibility on my part to explain why I'm going to such a person; and if they're that interested they can come and ask me.
So if we're talking about leaving churches because of aggressive and unpastoral leadership then surely a letter would be useless in that case and a confrontation possibly even detrimental!
(A letter is only required - from courtesy - if one is resigning from a church office or post.)
However, if one is leaving a church which does not have nasty, bullying and unreasonable leadership, then part amicably like ordinary people having talked together. But even then, only if one wants to share what it is that has compelled them to move on.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think when it comes to deciding whether to stay and be a force for the better, or go and better yourself--well, you have to keep in mind that you are not the Messiah. You have a breaking point, and it will come earlier than His. Do what good you can, but if you sense that you are about to become a casualty, it's time to get out. A destroyed Christian benefits nobody.
That is a very good point. Thanks for this.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I've known people to land on Vestry who have been in this country only few months!
in most cases I think it's not a good sign of organizational health.
quote:
I've known people to start a Bible study within weeks of arriving at a church.
One of these things is not like the other. This kind of thing is a much better IMO "way to get involved" for a new person.
Tee hee, some might say the opposite, that someone on vestry with off-base ideas can be voted down on every proposal and rendered harmless,
Well, indeed "some" *could* say it, but if the sayers think that's all that's likely to happen (including the implied no harm to the people doing the active "containment"), I'll loosely quote the Gator: "I want to live in that world. It must have pink fluffy unicorns and enchanted teapots". A longer observation period before giving out one of the top jobs with fiduciary responsibility is just due diligence . Starting out with smaller roles/responsibilities and seeing how they do is good practice.
quote:
but a Bible study leader with off-base ideas can do a lot of harm.
Oh, no doubt that a teacher with wonky ideas (or who is mostly interested in personal empire-building) can do damage to individuals/the church community/society at large.
Charlotte
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anne:
Until the sunday when we were told (explicitly) that Muslims and Buddhists, Roman Catholics and Anglicans were GOING TO HELL.
It was strongly implied that the only people who weren't on their way down were in that chapel that morning. The following weekend my RC Aunt and Cousin were coming to stay and I knew I couldn't inflict this bigotry on them.
(snip)
I don't think that we should feel too cosy or comfortable in church neccessarily - but if we feel that we couldn't take a friend or neighbour along, because they may be bullied or picked on, then it may be time to go.
This sounds similar to why I finally left the church I went to in high school. I was mostly "gone" anyway because I had gone off to uni in another town, but on my last visit, the youth pastor - a man who had been very kind to my squirrely teen self and whom I respected - reacted in horror to my tales of visiting the Newman Center. (I guess he hadn't heard the story about how I "accepted Christ" at a Catholic youth group meeting!) I was annoyed on behalf of my kind Christian friends who were part of that community, but my second reaction was "if he's that horrified about the Catholics, what must he think about my gay friends?". Besides dissing some wonderful people, I got the feeling that to remain "accepted" in that community, I would have had to "hide" things about myself that I didn't think were "bad" or needed to be kept secret. I'd heard a fair amount of it from the pulpit, but hearing it from this source made me think "I am really not safe here".
I wish I'd had the guts to challenge it, but I'm a wimp (and I was even wimpier as a young'un). I have, however, stayed true to my determination to never darken their doors again.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think when it comes to deciding whether to stay and be a force for the better, or go and better yourself--well, you have to keep in mind that you are not the Messiah. You have a breaking point, and it will come earlier than His. Do what good you can, but if you sense that you are about to become a casualty, it's time to get out. A destroyed Christian benefits nobody.
Heed the wise words of Lamb Chopped. Sometimes you just need to cut bait, shake the dust off your heels, and all that.
There are other communities. I am praying that you find one soon where you, Mrs Wood, and the children are welcomed and supported and are able to grow and flourish.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Welcome back, Wood.
Old hag that I am, I'm still here. Yes, I do find it a bit ironic that you are now exploring Anglicanism. All things change.
I have left a church only once, and it was one of the most difficult and painful experiences of my life.
I still miss that parish, although it would be more accurate to say that I miss it before it decided to leave the ECUSA and the Anglican Communion. Once the congregation made that choice, though, I felt that I had no choice but to leave.
Your friend,
Greta
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Welcome back, Wood.
In my long years, I fortunately have had to leave a church only once. It remains one of the most difficult and painful experiences of my life.
When the parish voted to leave the ECUSA and thereby the Anglican Commuinion, I felt that I had no choice other than to find another church.
Even though, at the time, I agreed with the congregation on the issue that precipitated their departure, I felt that breaking away was absolutely the wrong course of action.
I still miss that parish although it would be more accurate to say that I miss it as it was before it left the ECUSA and thereby left me.
Greta
P.S. I do find it a bit ironic that you are exploring Anglicanism. All things change.
[ 29. January 2011, 21:57: Message edited by: CorgiGreta ]
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Somehow that first post seemed to have been lost in cyberspace, only to appear after I had posted a re-write.
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
Welcome back, Wood.
In my long years, I fortunately have had to leave a church only once. It remains one of the most difficult and painful experiences of my life.
It's good to see you too, Greta.
And yes, it's horrible. The whole week, it's been the only thing on my mind.
I wrote and sent the letter. it went like this (parts are redacted obviously).
Dear [pastor's first name],
It's been hard for me to write this letter, but after several years of painful deliberation, I feel that differences in theological outlook and church vision leave me no choice but to resign my membership at [church]. I think that it has been apparent that my commitment to the church and my involvement in the meetings has been waning for some time, and I fear that this is only a symptom of the distance that has grown between the church and me.
[church] has been my spiritual home for over sixteen years. [partial list of things the church has done for me; partial list of things I've done in the church; ten lines or so] You don't forget these things.
[church] has been my community of faith for a long time, and God has given an immeasurable amount to my life though this church in the good times and the hard times. This is one of the saddest decisions I have ever made, and I want to make it clear that no ill feeling whatsoever exists between me and the church leadership or the community at large at this time. My decisive issue is on a point of belief.
[bit about how Mrs Wood feels]
We sincerely hope that while we shall no longer worship on a Sunday among the community at [church], we shall continue to maintain our friendships with our brothers and sisters there.
We wish the church all the best.
Yours in regret and sadness.
[signed]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
To move matters on ... what about ministers who feel at odds with their denomination and seriously think about leaving. I'm not specifically thinking of the Ordinariate here, I have known Baptists going to the URC or even the Church of England, for instance. I even knew a Salvation Army guy who felt drawn towards Greek Orthodoxy, although he didn't make the jump.
Often the issues are to do with the minister becoming more "liberal" and the denomination being more "evangelical", for instance - although the gay issue may also come into focus.
There are genuine practical issues involved here, such as pension and housing provision. These may make an older Pastor stay put even though they would really like to move. Has anyone any thoughts/experience on this?
I do realise that this is about moving Church (with a big "C") rather than leaving a congregation.
[ 31. January 2011, 10:36: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
To move matters on ... what about ministers who feel at odds with their denomination and seriously think about leaving. I'm not specifically thinking of the Ordinariate here, I have known Baptists going to the URC or even the Church of England, for instance. I even knew a Salvation Army guy who felt drawn towards Greek Orthodoxy, although he didn't make the jump.
Isn't this how most Anglican clergy feel all the time?
As none of us can quite agree on what the CofE actually is, and most of us want to change the CofE into something it is not, it must follow that nearly all of us must be wishing we were somewhere else!
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blog//twitter//
linkedin
Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I think there's always some tension, whichever tradition you're in. Because of my high church tendencies, I'm often asked why I'm not Anglican or Roman Catholic. I suspect if I went there, my Methodism would start showing! The grass always looks greener on the other side and I would be lying if I said I hadn't ever considered converting (and I think if I did, it would be Catholicism - but that's not to say that I don't have issues with Catholicism...) but there is a great deal I value where I am and I do feel that this is where God calls me to be. If anyone finds out where I can have the best of all of them, please drop me a line. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ 31. January 2011, 11:39: Message edited by: seasick ]
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
I hope the humour in my post was evident.
The CofE is a coalition of Evangelicals, Liberals and Catholics.
Naturally I want the CofE to be a Apostolic Sacramental Church as was the intention of the English Reformers.
However we keep letting in all these other folks who seem to think that the English Reformers had entirely different intentions!
Methodism has the same tensions I imagine. A fully pure Wesleyan Methodism with enhanced apostolic succession would also be an Apostolic Sacramental Church as was the intention of John Wesley. I would find such a church very attractive. As I do Scandinavian Lutheranism.
In the Cambridge Theological Federation relationships were warm between all the colleges (and warmer now than 5 years back I understand). But we all knew that it wasn't just in terms of geography that Westcott was closer to Wesley* than either were to Ridley+ or Westminster.
To be in such a diverse church is a great gift. But sometimes I think we skirt around fundamental theological and ecclesiological differences. I even suspect that many of the Dead Horse arguments are to keep our minds of the real divide in our communion#.
*Although separated by Jesus.
+I shall continue to dine out on my friend from Ridley who thanked 'us' for a very moving High Mass after shared worship. It was a straight forward Methodist communion service hosted by Wesley college, using the Methodist Worship Book.
#Which I believe to be the Sacraments. How a church can hold together with completely antagonistic competing views of the Eucharist, Holy Orders / Vocation and increasingly Baptism is a great mystery of the Holy Spirit.
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blog//twitter//
linkedin
Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Edward Green said:
*Although separated by Jesus.
But, of course, Jesus is on our side*... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
*Of the road...
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Oh that Jesus. Not the other Jesus.
[ 31. January 2011, 16:43: Message edited by: Chorister ]
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
I don't think you'll find they talk about that Chorister..... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Wood,
I think that your letter is perfect. It is both honest and charitable.
Greta
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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