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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Challenging Fellow Christians
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I started posting this in Purgatory and it turned into a rant, so it's here instead. It comes out of a number of conversations recently.
What makes it acceptable for the strand of Christianity that uses the language of "born again" to challenge other Christians and judge them on their answers? And if questioned on the acceptability of this, to say: "Oh, but you need to be challenged as a Christian. Do you acknowledge Jesus as Lord?".
Why can't people coming from that mindset see that it's only one mindset and that there is a whole range of Christians who do not express themselves in those terms and would be totally uncomfortable in trotting out such tired and loaded clichés to test and challenge your fellow Christians. From my own tradition I would not dream of asking how often the person I was talking to had received communion or been to confession - that's between the person and their priest.
So what on earth makes it acceptable to challenge your fellow Christians? And what for that matter to judge?
[ 27. August 2011, 19:55: Message edited by: PeteC ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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ianjmatt
Shipmate
# 5683
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Posted
You're making a rather large number of assumptions here. The first of which is that you assume the people who do this acknowledge people other than those like themselves as 'other christians'. Of course, they don't really which is why they are saying the things they say.
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You might want to visit my blog:
http://lostintheheartofsomewhere.blogspot.com
But maybe not
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
"Were you saved by our Lord Jesus Christ?"
"Absolutely!"
"When?"
"Two thousand years ago."
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
At times, I get quite wound up about the fact that Orthodox Christians - polite and charming as they (almost) uniformly are - cannot simply agree to differ, on a theological level. The interesting thing is that, on a human interaction level, they do (sort-of) agree to differ. RCs can go either way. In a sense, those of us in the agree-to-differ brigade are taking just as much of a stance as the RCs and the Orthodox.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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joan knox
Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100
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Posted
I find the response 'I'm sorry, but who died and made you God and judge?' tends to shut them up...
And, if it doesn't, the judicious use of a chainsaw 'in Christian love' tends to do the trick.
[ 01. May 2011, 09:04: Message edited by: joan knox ]
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Jesus saves, Allah protects, Buddha enlightens, Cthulhu thinks you'll make a nice sandwich
Posts: 906 | From: edinburgh | Registered: Dec 2010
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
From my own tradition I would not dream of asking how often the person I was talking to had received communion or been to confession - that's between the person and their priest.
Maybe you should. It might help them to see how ludicrously stupid their own criteria for consideration as a "Real Christian" are.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
So what on earth makes it acceptable to challenge your fellow Christians? And what for that matter to judge?
Well, of course it's perfectly fine to judge them as long as you do it positively.
I think it's likely they are scoring points with God for 'zeal' as they are at a place in their lives where they are sincerely trying to do what they have been led to believe is 'right' (often knowing full well they are subjecting themselves to ridicule from their 'betters' - DAMHIK), although s/he/it may be otherwise less than completely pleased with their overall development.
Love 'em or hate 'em, they're not lukewarm.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
So what on earth makes it acceptable to challenge your fellow Christians? And what for that matter to judge?
Nothing. It's not acceptable. Not at all. The Bible never gives permission to challenge a person's salvation.
You might ask them to carefully define the term "born again." I've found that many who use the term don't really know what they mean when they're saying it. Actually, I find that many (certainly not all) in that stream of the church discuss their faith almost completely in empty tag lines that they can't really define and don't really understand. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
And if they can define it, you might find (depending on exactly who you're dealing with here) that either:
A: Their definition is not really what the Bible says about the term. My concordance only found three instances of it, all pretty vague as to what it really meant: Jesus just said you are "born of the Spirit" which one could say happens when you are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
OR
B: you may find the term actually fits you. Again, this is heavily dependent on who you're dealing with and what they mean by the term.
For the OP, it sounds like B won't be the case; but you never know, they might not realize how much they actually have in common with the rest of the Church. I was very surprised to find that most of my theology fit better in the Orthodox church than in my protestant background. Sometimes some people (thinking of myself when I say this) just need their eyes opened to the fact that there are a lot of Christians out there who share the same basic beliefs as them, and that despite differences we really have quite a lot in common.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I can no longer count myself a Christian, and am in fact in something of a personal knot over that fact, but I very much want to address this:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
. . . What makes it acceptable for the strand of Christianity that uses the language of "born again" to challenge other Christians and judge them on their answers? And if questioned on the acceptability of this, to say: "Oh, but you need to be challenged as a Christian. Do you acknowledge Jesus as Lord?".
Why can't people coming from that mindset see that it's only one mindset and that there is a whole range of Christians who do not express themselves in those terms and would be totally uncomfortable in trotting out such tired and loaded clichés . . .
Until 2-3 years ago, I was an active and faithful (well, reasonably faithful) member of a church at a very different spoke-end of the Christian spectrum from "born-again" folk.
It was the sagging, empty, flapping-in-the-wind cliches that ultimately drove me away. Born-againers have no corner on the cliche market. While my by-and-large very liberal church-mates used different cliches (and were perhaps slightly less judgmental, or at least judgmental on different grounds), the hollow cliches abounded.
While active, I tried hard to live a life that accorded to my (possibly dim) grasp of Christ's teachings. Not only did I find this nearly impossible (and certainly not within my reach), I also found that hewing to what I understood (or misunderstood) these principles to be put me constantly at odds with (and put down by) Christians of all kinds of stripes.
My 6-7 year Christian journey ultimately proved exhausting, unsatisfying, and bewildering, in large part because I find it so problematic to mouth cliches that seem to be sucked dry of meaning for the lives we live, in that efforts to actually live the cliches (and thereby render them real and meaningful) are so consistently sniped at.
Unfortunately, a tradition (or really, a host of traditions) of over 2000 years' standing is going to ring increasingly hollow as it increasingly diverges from the realities of the culture with birthed it as opposed to the culture in which contemporary followers attempt to apply it.
One result is the tension between those who would claim that the tradition's truth is inherent in its exact wording ("literalist" Biblical exegesis, formulae like "Have you accepted Jesus as Lord"), and those who would say that the tradition's truth is inherent in the perceived deeds and teachings of its founder (Do you give your time, talent and treasure to help the disadvantaged, and do you love your neighbor as yourself?).
Ultimately, ISTM that the tension Jesus sought to point out was that between the values of the incumbent surrounding culture and the values of (watch out: here comes another cliche) of the Kingdom, and this tension seems to get pretty consistently swept under the rug in terms of actually attempting to live a Christian life.
In one case, it's clobbered and hidden behind the wall of wording, and in the one I experienced, it's clobbered and hidden behind the separation between church-life and the business, domestic, and social realities we actually live, without much sincere examination of these for the ways in which they might differ from the teachings we repeat but find impossible to follow.
Sorry; this has wound me up.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Then you get the very silly people who think I can't possibly be a (real) Christian because I sing in a church choir.
I suppose you can only hold up a mirror to them and let the light of their misconceptions shine back in their faces.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Apocalypso, it winds me up too, because I do try to follow the teaching of Christ, in a failing human way, and it's not easy. Being a stiff-upper-lipped introverted Brit, I really do not want to stand on a street corner or talk in a café about my faltering attempts to choose to try to live out a Christian life with someone I hardly know mouthing the platitudes about being "born again" or declaring "Jesus as Lord". The last person who wound me up to the rant would not listen to my responses that this was from one viewpoint, it was a particular form of language and it was not how I would express myself, but kept coming back with more of the clichés - so I left.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by joan knox:
I find the response 'I'm sorry, but who died and made you God and judge?' tends to shut them up...
And, if it doesn't, the judicious use of a chainsaw 'in Christian love' tends to do the trick.
I agree.
But the snag is - the people who do this tend to think that they're doing you a favour. They will defend themselves by saying that they're only interested in getting you saved. They'll tell you that they themselves are saved, and they just want to share that salvation with you.
That's nice of them, isn't it? The little darlings.
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Indeed, it's perfectly lovely of them.
What falls far short of lovely is the (for me, anyway) ludicrous notion that merely uttering the words "I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior" (or Saviour, if you prefer) provides a permanent ticket to salvation (whatever that may be once it's got its house shoes on).
Because, in my experience, what then follows is either (A) no change whatever in lifestyle, because, after all, (Cliche Alert) We're Not Perfect, Just Forgiven, or (B) the sort of ongoing fall, repentance, confession, forgiveness, rinse, lather, repeat cycle which actually seems to stem from no sincere effort to change.
It's like the endless cycle we often see in domestic violence cases: Partner A abuses Partner B. Partner B (choose as appropriate) rages, weeps, and/or reports. Partner A apologizes and promises to change. Partner B forgives; life resumes; Partner A abuses Partner B. And on and on until Partner B lands in hospital, divorce court, or the cemetary.
I know; there are exceptions. People can and do change. AFAICS, though, one primary purpose to which Christianity gets put by many Christians is to justify or excuse / forgive the failure to change.
[ 01. May 2011, 16:33: Message edited by: Apocalypso ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Japes
Shipmate
# 5358
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Then you get the very silly people who think I can't possibly be a (real) Christian because I sing in a church choir.
I suppose you can only hold up a mirror to them and let the light of their misconceptions shine back in their faces.
Ah, you remind me of a fellow student who took my umbrella, without checking with me first if I needed it, so she didn't get wet going to church. What had been a drizzle when fellow student set off for church turned into a torrential downpour as I was mid-way to Evensong...
On being confronted with a very angry, and still fairly soggy Japes on her return, I was stared at blankly, and informed it was because it didn't matter if I got wet, as I didn't go to a "proper" church. I sang in the voluntary choir in the cathedral, and had to be lent towels by the vergers so I could dry off enough before Evensong.
The Canon-in-Residence's face was a picture when I explained when I met him the next day just why I was so wet the day before.
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Blog may or may not be of any interest.
Posts: 2013 | From: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: Dec 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Some of you are definitely holier than I ![[Biased]](wink.gif) because when someone starts in with the "Are you saved, sister?" I'm afraid any number of sarcastic ways of messing with their heads pop into mine....
I try not to do that to those who are a) fearfully in earnest and b) Christ's "little ones"--you know, the ones who are childlike innocents and might get seriously harmed by my snarkiness. But if I suspect there's a game of one-up-manship going, why then...
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.
- Who is Jesus?
- (Trick question- What about God?)
- What does Christ mean?
- Lord- in what sense? Does he micromanage or or is he one of those CEOs with a zillion deputies?
- Savior- from what? Hell? That place he created for you in the first place?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Some of you are definitely holier than I because when someone starts in with the "Are you saved, sister?" I'm afraid any number of sarcastic ways of messing with their heads pop into mine....
I try not to do that to those who are a) fearfully in earnest and b) Christ's "little ones"--you know, the ones who are childlike innocents and might get seriously harmed by my snarkiness. But if I suspect there's a game of one-up-manship going, why then...
Well, you're definitely holier than I am. How are we meant to tell the difference among these groups?
I was once virtually "stalked" by a fellow-parishioner who not only targeted me for "conversion" -- in his view, our whole congregation had jumped into a fast-moving handbasket, and he regarded it as His Job to save people -- but also flat-out lied to me to get my ear, attention, time alone for his rants, etc. Fearfully in earnest? Little one? One-upper? And if I was to respond to him at all, how could I, without falling into the very trap that held him so tight?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.
- Who is Jesus?
- (Trick question- What about God?)
- What does Christ mean?
- Lord- in what sense? Does he micromanage or or is he one of those CEOs with a zillion deputies?
- Savior- from what? Hell? That place he created for you in the first place?
- I'm sorry I don't believe in feudal forms of social organisation
- Well, we talk, but the relationship is complicated
- The salvationists tell me the rolls of the elect have been full for half a century, so I have opted for a Hindu cyclical creation sequence in which I can be reborn an unlimited number of times - admittedly one has no guaranteed access to paradise but it gives you a great deal of varied experience and an unrivalled choice in situationally appropriate avatars to adore
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Boopy
Shipmate
# 4738
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Posted
"Yes of course I need to be challenged in how I live life as a Christian. But this is not a task that has been allocated to you."
Posts: 1170 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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joan knox
Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100
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Posted
Adopt look of pastoral concern... gently hold elbow in supportive, yet non-sexually threatening way [unless person has elbow-fetish... they never did cover that one in pastoral care class!], using hushed, caring tones note to person:
"Actually, I was just chatting to Jesus a couple of minutes ago and He was telling me that He was a little worried about you, brother/sister..."
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Jesus saves, Allah protects, Buddha enlightens, Cthulhu thinks you'll make a nice sandwich
Posts: 906 | From: edinburgh | Registered: Dec 2010
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
What makes it acceptable for the strand of Christianity that uses the language of "born again" to challenge other Christians and judge them on their answers? And if questioned on the acceptability of this, to say: "Oh, but you need to be challenged as a Christian. Do you acknowledge Jesus as Lord?".
In my experience, it's not just that particular strand of Christianity. All kinds of strands do it, but they just use different jargon, and have a different way of implying that they are holier than you, and that you are wrong. And they challenge on different things.
One difference is that some will simply leave you in your 'wrongness', while silently looking down on you and alluding to things without saying it outright, while others see it as their duty to help you out of your 'wrongness', and so are vocal about it. Both are equally annoying to me.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Joan Knox...
Apocalypso, c'mon now. You know what I mean--it doesn't require any spiritual discernment to know that X always talks to himself in the back pew and is definitely a little off, and giving him snarky answers would be putting yet another fearful bogeyman into his already shadowed world. Or Y, who is literally wringing her hands while she talks to you, and you know that she's a terribly worrywart and probably on six forms of Xanax, and why add another ring to those already under her eyes?
With regards to your stalker frenemy, I'd say simply the fact that he LIES to you makes him fair game for snarky treatment, the more outrageous the beter. And the stalkerish behavior is grounds to a sharp rebuke and to follow-up action if he continues to stalk. You've got a right to be left in peace. And HE may have several screws loose that need a sharp adjustment, by court order if necessary.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Then you get the very silly people who think I can't possibly be a (real) Christian because I sing in a church choir.
I suppose you can only hold up a mirror to them and let the light of their misconceptions shine back in their faces.
WHAT??! Why wouldn't you be a real Christian if you sing in a choir? That's the weirdest, most fucked up thing I've heard recently. Well, maybe not the MOST fucked-up thing, but still. Do these imbeciles give you reasons why you are not considered a Christian? Do tell. This is bizarre.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Some of you are definitely holier than I because when someone starts in with the "Are you saved, sister?" I'm afraid any number of sarcastic ways of messing with their heads pop into mine....
I try not to do that to those who are a) fearfully in earnest and b) Christ's "little ones"--you know, the ones who are childlike innocents and might get seriously harmed by my snarkiness. But if I suspect there's a game of one-up-manship going, why then...
Here's a few snarky comments that my sisters (not the oldest sister because she's a wacko-fundie) and other friends have come up with:
Q: Have you found Jesus?
A: I didn't know He was missing!
Q: Have you found Jesus?
A: Yes, He was hiding behind the couch.
Q: Have you been saved by Jesus?
A: The Lord has preserved me in a tight-fitting jar. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Jesus saves, Moses invests.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boopy:
"Yes of course I need to be challenged in how I live life as a Christian. But this is not a task that has been allocated to you."
Ooooh, SNAP! I like it!
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
I don't know what I would do if, like Apocalypso, I'd been stalked because of a perceived un-born-again state.
However, in general, I'm an economical person. It's easier for me to give someone a minute of my time, adopt a Mona Lisa smile and answer yes to all their questions....meanwhile, inwardly I am visualizing the person with duct tape over the mouth.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Joan Knox...
Apocalypso, c'mon now. You know what I mean--it doesn't require any spiritual discernment to know that X always talks to himself in the back pew and is definitely a little off, and giving him snarky answers would be putting yet another fearful bogeyman into his already shadowed world. Or Y, who is literally wringing her hands while she talks to you, and you know that she's a terribly worrywart and probably on six forms of Xanax, and why add another ring to those already under her eyes?
With regards to your stalker frenemy, I'd say simply the fact that he LIES to you makes him fair game for snarky treatment, the more outrageous the beter. And the stalkerish behavior is grounds to a sharp rebuke and to follow-up action if he continues to stalk. You've got a right to be left in peace. And HE may have several screws loose that need a sharp adjustment, by court order if necessary.
Lamb Chopped, thanks. Thing is, I didn't know what you meant, and I work 40 hours / week (when I'm lucky -- it's often more) with people generally deemed by the rest of society as funny-acting, funny-looking, funny-sounding, funny-thinking or any combination thereof. My discernment skills regarding "normal" vs. "abnormal" behavior are probably permanently warped.
The other thing is, I've had more contact with the "R-U-Saved?" contingent than anyone could ever want, and IME, lying and tricking "infidels" into salvation is not at all unusual. Apparently, it's done on the theory, "Heck, saving this blackened soul matters more than one small sin committed in aid of a larger purpose, and anyway, I'm Not Perfect, Just Forgiven. (shudders)
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Ah, I get it now! No, I wouldn't snark to anybody with a clear mental/emotional disability-directly-affecting-our-present-interaction. (remind me to tell you about the sweet gentleman who walked up to our Bible study group and introduced himself as Jesus Christ.)
I've met some of the religious hypocrites you describe too (been permanently scarred, shudder) and it seems to me that engaging in such behavior in the name of the Lord is blasphemy with a capital WTF and deserves all the snarkiness it gets.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
. . . (remind me to tell you about the sweet gentleman who walked up to our Bible study group and introduced himself as Jesus Christ.) . . .
Small world. His mother is one of my clients. She doesn't try to save me, though.
[ 02. May 2011, 00:54: Message edited by: Apocalypso ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
In my experience, if someone starts talking along the lines of "born again", "do you know Jesus", and "are you saved", they tend to be the exact sort of people I want nothing whatsoever to do with about anything of any depth or importance. This includes my God-less Pentecostal sister and many others. Such language breed selfish thoughts and all sorts of holier than thou nonsense. --Never want to hear this sort of language.
Can't help but quote the 1960s summer camp song:
Tune: Battle Hymn of the Republic:
"Jesus plays ice hockey, he's a goalie for the Leafs (repeat x2)
Jesus saves, Jesus saves, Jesus saves"
Other verses:
-Jesus put some money in the Bank of Montreal.
-Jesus walks on water, he's a lifeguard at the pool.
-He changes water into wine and doesn't spend a dime.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
(remind me to tell you about the sweet gentleman who walked up to our Bible study group and introduced himself as Jesus Christ.)
But how will we know when he really does come?
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Maybe he came again and we didn't notice.
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
p.s. I would have thought the obvious answer to the questions "Are you saved? Are you born again? Do you know Jesus"? would be
"Damn straight I am. You?"
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
So has anyone got any theories as to why these people go about asking other people if they're saved or not? What do they get out of it?
And more importantly - how long do they keep it up? I suspect that if you secretly stalked one of these "I'm saved and I want to share my salvation with you" people for a year or more, then, more often than not, you'll find that they get bored of it after a while.
Then again, you might get bored of watching them before they get bored of asking people if they're saved or not. So perhaps we're wrong to assume it's a permanent character trait.
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
To be fair, there are evangelical Christians around who do like to dialogue with other people and to actually listen to what they have to say. I can give examples of quite bold moves in this respect from people you would not expect.
I know one chap of a very conservative frame of mind who invited some gay spokespeople to a very open and frank discussion about homosexuality and religion - and he did it in a way that respected their views and lifestyle and gave them 'the floor' as well as those who took an opposing view.
I'll admit that this sort of thing is rare in conservative circles, but it is not entirely unknown.
Equally, this sort of thing isn't restricted to evangelicals and fundamentalists (I make a distinction between the two).
I once went on a trip with some Orthodox folk when a well-known Russian icon was touring the UK. One the way there, to the embarrassment of one of my Orthodox friends, a woman accused me of 'making up my own religion' because the Anglican church allows for 'confession' but doesn't make it compulsory.
'You've got to be pretty sure of yourself to invent your own religion!' she scoffed, smugly.
'On the contrary,' I said. 'I haven't made up my own religion at all. The core of it I share with you guys and indeed derives from the teachings of the Bible and the Fathers. Just because my own tradition places less emphasis on particular aspects - such as auricular confession - doesn't mean that we don't share the same basic Faith.'
Ok, I know where she was coming from, the 'seamless robe' of Orthodoxy and all that, unpick one part and it all unravels etc ...
But the attitude struck me as very similar to that found among the fundie 'Are you saved?' brigade.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
There comes a liberating point in the Christian life where you just have to stop giving a shit about what anyone other than God thinks. I've met conservative evangelicals who think I'm a Bad Christian because I'm off message about how wonderful post substitutionary atonement is or whatever, and liberal Christians who think I'm a Bad Christian because I'm off message about how awful post substitutionary atonement is or whatever. And then there's the Catholics and Orthodox, who don't even think my church is a 'church'. After a couple of years of worrying about it I now really, really don't give a fuck.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
..... and I work 40 hours / week (when I'm lucky -- it's often more) with people generally deemed by the rest of society as funny-acting, funny-looking, funny-sounding, funny-thinking or any combination thereof. My discernment skills regarding "normal" vs. "abnormal" behavior are probably permanently warped.
Are you sure you don't work with clergy?! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Seriously, just to say I've been valuing your contribution to this thread so far.
I have a feeling I've been subtly 'challenged' by 'washed in the blood' style parishioners, in the past, trying to work out whether their vicar is 'saved' or not. And I know many people who would just assume that as an Anglican cleric I couldn't possibly be a 'real' Christian anyway!
The terminology is, of course, perfectly scriptural and even orthodox. But it does seem to be appropriated more readily by a particular kind of Christian. Can't say it's bothered me particularly. With some it's probably part and parcel of a judgemental attitude and a personality that thrives on confrontation, and the need for personal reassurance of one's own state of superiority.
But for others, it probably is related to a sense of mission. John Wesley took every opportunity he could to 'correct' wrong ideas of salvation and tell people when they were lost, so that he could consider himself acquitted of their blood, come the day of judgement. Also a scriptural tenet, as it happens. He felt it as a deep Gospel responsibility.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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rosamundi
Ship's lacemaker
# 2495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
"Were you saved by our Lord Jesus Christ?"
"Absolutely!"
"When?"
"Two thousand years ago."
"Have you accepted Our Blessed Lady as your personal intercessor?"
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Website.
Ship of Fools flickr group
Posts: 2382 | From: here or there | Registered: Mar 2002
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BessLane
Shipmate
# 15176
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:
Here's a few snarky comments that my sisters (not the oldest sister because she's a wacko-fundie) and other friends have come up with:
Q: Have you found Jesus?
A: I didn't know He was missing!
Q: Have you found Jesus?
A: Yes, He was hiding behind the couch.
Q: Have you been saved by Jesus?
A: The Lord has preserved me in a tight-fitting jar.
Jesus saves, Moses invests.
I love these and am soooo stealing the tight-fitting jar one.
My (usually internal) response to the Have you found Jesus? question is "Why are you bugging me, I'm not the one who misplaced him!"
On a similar note, there is a lovely earnest couple who eat in my restaurant a couple of times a month. Every visit, they leave their tip inside one of those "Take a minute right now to accept Jesus..." pamphlets. While I appreciate the tip, I am left with a slightly offended feeling. They know me as their server, why do they make assumptions about my spiritual status?
eta: The blatant hypocrasy of some of the saved drives me batty. I actually overheard one lady talking about how she worried about her unmarried 19 year old granddaughter. "I know she's saved," the lady said, "but this is her second child..." ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
[ 02. May 2011, 15:22: Message edited by: BessHiggs ]
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It's all on me and I won't tell it.
formerly BessHiggs
Posts: 1388 | From: Yorkville, TN | Registered: Sep 2009
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
This is probably the least uncivil Hell forum thread I have noticed. It almost belongs in Heaven.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
You mean I didn't add any gratuitous swearing?
Having just encountered this mindset again, I think what I'm really finding frustrating is the lack of ability to listen - to get alongside anyone, but to launch in regardless. The first episode of A History of the Christianity which was reshown last week had Diarmaid MacCulloch comparing unfavourably the recent Christian missionaries in the Far East and China to the original Eastern Orthodox expansion into the same area several hundred years before for similar reasons.
There is an arrogance, an absolute certainty of rightness within some Christians, and it's often, but not always, of a protestant fundamentalist mindset, that doesn't listen and doesn't want to hear that there might be another way, that the sure fire recipe to fix anything may not apply in this case. It's probably a way of paddling furiously and refusing to face any doubts, but that adamantine certainty that refuses to accept their way is not the only way is so frustrating to deal with.
And small group situations with strangers who need to be dealt with in the longer term are not the best place to practice many of the answers above, although they may well work on street corners.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:
WHAT??! Why wouldn't you be a real Christian if you sing in a choir? That's the weirdest, most fucked up thing I've heard recently. Well, maybe not the MOST fucked-up thing, but still. Do these imbeciles give you reasons why you are not considered a Christian? Do tell. This is bizarre.
Because if I was a real Christian I would sing in a worship band or play guitar, of course.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
There is an arrogance, an absolute certainty of rightness within some Christians...
Ditto some atheists, socialists, conservatives, liberals, Muslims, libertarians....A percentage of the human race are just knobheads. Do we need a new hell thread every time that fact is demonstrated?
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:
WHAT??! Why wouldn't you be a real Christian if you sing in a choir? That's the weirdest, most fucked up thing I've heard recently. Well, maybe not the MOST fucked-up thing, but still. Do these imbeciles give you reasons why you are not considered a Christian? Do tell. This is bizarre.
Because if I was a real Christian I would sing in a worship band or play guitar, of course.
If I recall correctly, you lot were interfering with the work of the Spirit in your church, probably by singing Bach and Tallis. The nerve of you! ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Someone I know compares the "challenging" behavior to Klingon love -- you know, how on quote:
Star Trek
the Klingons could only mate with one another after beating one another up.
I have been given to understand that this sort of "But are you really, really, really saved?" stuff is something that Christians of that particular theological stripe do to one another on a regular basis as a kind of group bonding and boundary-marking ritual; so we Lutherans and Anglicans, RC's Presbyterians, et al, don't need to feel singled out when they do it to us.
My favorite response to the "Are you saved?" question is, as others have noted, "Why, yes -- on a hill outside Jerusalem 2,000 years ago." If I'm asked if I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior, I reply, "My accepting Jesus Christ isn't nearly as important as his accepting me...," at which point I'm usually ready to segue into the story of my Holy Baptism back in 1961 when I was a sickly little newborn in an incubator. (This is my kinder, gentler version of "Go ahead...make my day...")
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Q: are you saved?
A: only from the likes of you! (exit stage left)
I hate Hate HATE this sort of patronizing dialogue. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
There is an arrogance, an absolute certainty of rightness within some Christians...
Ditto some atheists, socialists, conservatives, liberals, Muslims, libertarians....A percentage of the human race are just knobheads. Do we need a new hell thread every time that fact is demonstrated?
But it fits so well with "how those Christians love one another" and "love your neighbour" and "love is always patient and kind". Not.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
When riding on a bus in a Brazilian city, someone shouted at me: "Do you listen to rock music? God doesn't like rock music." Probably this was because my hair was a bit long at the time. I replied "I used to listen a lot to rock music, but nowadays I prefer Afoxé." That was sure to get him in a fit.
What really revolted me, is that he was being quite rude and obnoxious, but a lot of people in the bus were applauding him and cheering him on.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I think what I'm really finding frustrating is the[ir] lack of ability to listen
Maybe it's just because you're crushingly boring?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Come off it, Yorick. You know the rules back to front by now. You can say CK's posts are crushingly boring. You can't say CK is crushingly boring. That's a C3.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Come off it, Yorick. You know the rules back to front by now. You can say CK's posts are crushingly boring. You can't say CK is crushingly boring. That's a C3.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
Barney, you're on my turf here. Kindly stop telling the denizens what they can and can't do. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Marvin
Hellhost
PS:
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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