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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Challenging Fellow Christians
RadicalWhig
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# 13190

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quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
Question RW what happens when you die? If it is something other than the complete and total end of your existence on this or any other plane is there anything you can do to better your lot?

Same as you, I imagine: brain functions cease and thus conscience existence ends; organs (if they are still in serviceable shape) get donated to those who need transplants, and the rest of me becomes fertilizer. I will live only only in the memories of those I have encountered, in my legacy and achievements, and perhaps my descendants.

In the meantime, bettering our lot involves making the most of the life we have and trying to leave the world a better place than we found it.

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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Yea.

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mousethief

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# 953

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Yea

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Curiosity killed ...

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# 11770

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Yea to changing the title - but do I have to still show as the thread starter?

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Evensong
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# 14696

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No need for a change. Radical Whig is precisely a challenging fellow christian.
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RadicalWhig
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# 13190

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"Beating RadicalWhig's head against the wall" would be a more accurate reflection of the thread's tone.

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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Beating one's head against the wall in conversation with Radical Whig ... Yeas or nays only please. No substitutions allowed.

Nay.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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How about "Radical Whig brings it upon himself - again"?

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... The Respectable

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molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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Having said that, I think RW does have a point in as far that institutionalised, traditional Christianity has become largely meaningless to contemporary European society. We worry about making Christianity relevant and thus spend a lot of effort contextualising it for all sorts of cultures across the world, however, no useful interpretation is available for young, urban Europeans. This is a great tragedy, as a whole culture is now lost to the deliverance from existential meaningless that Jesus offers. A declining church is forced to worry about maintaining church buildings, making flower arrangements and haggling senselessly over gay issues instead of doing the work of Jesus. In all seriousness, unless we rise to the challenge of totally re-explaining the Gospel in the narrative of our contemporary society, the European church is condemned to the waste heap of history.

Now while I doubt that you “own” the way forward out this, RW, I do accept that you have some interesting and useful ideas, although they are somewhat lost in the emotional vigour of offensive argumentation. There has been talk of reformations and constitutions on this thread, so I would like to challenge you, RW, to draw on your outstanding grasp of constitutional methodology and expression (I mean this seriously), and draw up a catechism, a 95 thesis, a proto-canon law or whatever you feel fit to explain what you believe Christianity should be without the emotional baggage of this thread. I think that could be a very interesting and fruitful basis for discussion.

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... The Respectable

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RadicalWhig
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# 13190

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Well, it's funny you should mention it; my hard-drive is crammed full of various half-baked attempts to do just that.

I'm convinced that there needs to be some social, congregational and institutional element. There are, amongst the educated under-35 middle class of Europe (i.e. just about everyone I know) lots of people who might be "ethical culturists", deists", "humanists", "pantheists", such like - although they might not use the labels. Many of these people are trying to find an encouraging, sustaining spirituality, and a mode of living-well, which does not depend on elaborate supernatural schemes(*) - and they are willing to find much good in Christianity, even though it is not true. If the benefits of Christianity are not to be lost (as I fear they are being), then these people need to find a way to come together, to act in concert, to encourage and to sustain one another.

So forming a "Post-theistic Church", or whatever it might be called, isn't such a ridiculous idea.

OK, it has been done - the Unitarians; yes, but that's got the same "little old ladies arranging flowers" mentality as the traditional churches. I guess the way my mind is going is some sort of "emerging unitarian-universalism", with a radical and more urgent edge: (Here I really am just thinking out loud).

I tried to address this question over a year ago with a thread entitled "What would a Spongite church be like?", but the only responses I got were dismissive and derogatory.

I'll post more on this later: I do have some ideas for an organisational basis.

For the time being: how about some wonderful liturgy?

(Jump down to Section 5: The Form of Celebrating the Socratic Society; Section 6: the Deity and Philosophy of the Society; and Section 7: the Liberty of the Society).

(* "Elaborate supernatural schemes" is my attempt to say "magic and fairytales" without upsetting people - is that better?)

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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)

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RadicalWhig
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# 13190

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quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
For the time being: how about some wonderful liturgy?

(Jump down to Section 5: The Form of Celebrating the Socratic Society; Section 6: the Deity and Philosophy of the Society; and Section 7: the Liberty of the Society).

Actually, Section 6 is probably the best place to start - it goes straight into the theology of a non-theistic God.

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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)

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Helen-Eva
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# 15025

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quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:

(* "Elaborate supernatural schemes" is my attempt to say "magic and fairytales" without upsetting people - is that better?)

Oddly enough, yes it seems much better. Though possibly the "elaborate" is superfluous. [Razz]

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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

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rugasaw
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It almost seems like you would be better of with something like Kiwanis International. Although I am confused about your desire for a "worship" service. When God has no effect in your life or after why?

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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
Having said that, I think RW does have a point in as far that institutionalised, traditional Christianity has become largely meaningless to contemporary European society. We worry about making Christianity relevant and thus spend a lot of effort contextualising it for all sorts of cultures across the world, however, no useful interpretation is available for young, urban Europeans. This is a great tragedy, as a whole culture is now lost to the deliverance from existential meaningless that Jesus offers. A declining church is forced to worry about maintaining church buildings, making flower arrangements and haggling senselessly over gay issues instead of doing the work of Jesus. In all seriousness, unless we rise to the challenge of totally re-explaining the Gospel in the narrative of our contemporary society, the European church is condemned to the waste heap of history.

This idea of "re-explaining the gospel for contemporary society" - that indeed of urban Europeans, though young they increasingly aren't - has been tried extensively for about 50-60 years now by pretty much every church that's out there! Heck, the RCC did call an Ecumenical Council for the express purpose of this pastoral concern, an unprecedented move in Church history. And as far as keeping membership numbers up is concerned, it has been an abject failure. In all seriousness, unless we trash this idiotic project of totally re-explaining the Gospel in the narrative of our contemporary society, the European church is condemned to the waste heap of history. The Zeitgeist is not the Holy Spirit, and it will never be. It's time to stop trying to lead by following. The Groucho Marx approach to principles is just not attractive, certainly not to young people. It's time to do a Luther on contemporary culture: Here we Christians stand, we can do no other - and if you don't like it, get fucked! Maybe the churches will continue shrinking. So what, they shrink anyway. Maybe they won't. But at least a modicum of (self-)respect will be regained. Nobody likes a sucker, and Christian attempts at being contemporary make a Dyson look feeble.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Now I think about it RW sems to be trying to reinvent the Lions Club, or possibly the Rotary Club.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Anselmina
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# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Now I think about it RW sems to be trying to reinvent .... the Rotary Club.

You mean, reinventing the wheel ? [Big Grin]

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molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
This idea of "re-explaining the gospel for contemporary society" - that indeed of urban Europeans, though young they increasingly aren't - has been tried extensively for about 50-60 years now by pretty much every church that's out there! Heck, the RCC did call an Ecumenical Council for the express purpose of this pastoral concern, an unprecedented move in Church history. And as far as keeping membership numbers up is concerned, it has been an abject failure.

While this is true, it does not mean that it is wrong. It only means that has (so far) not been undertaken successfully. It is of course quite an arduous undertaking. The success of the early Christians was certainly based on their social engagement, but it also helped that the NT narratives were to a greater or lesser degree all couched in the Hellenic cultural paradigm and used Greek imagery. We should be open to contentious catch phrases such as "God is a DJ", and try to fill them with meaning to which the (post)modern urbanite can relate.
quote:
In all seriousness, unless we trash this idiotic project of totally re-explaining the Gospel in the narrative of our contemporary society, the European church is condemned to the waste heap of history. The Zeitgeist is not the Holy Spirit, and it will never be. It's time to stop trying to lead by following.

Yet church relevance cannot be reduced to the waxing and waning of the Holy Spirit, or what mood He happens to be in. We too are called to do our part. I choose to think of the Holy Spirit as being more of a constant than the Zeitgeist, which would suggest to me that the latter is the variable we are wrestling with. We don't need to follow it, but we need to respond to it.
quote:
The Groucho Marx approach to principles is just not attractive, certainly not to young people. It's time to do a Luther on contemporary culture: Here we Christians stand, we can do no other - and if you don't like it, get fucked! Maybe the churches will continue shrinking. So what, they shrink anyway. Maybe they won't. But at least a modicum of (self-)respect will be regained. Nobody likes a sucker, and Christian attempts at being contemporary make a Dyson look feeble.

I don't know that G.M. had any other approach to principles than grotty cynism, and I don't think anybody is suggesting that. Meanwhile, taking the Luther stand is commendable, but not terribly helpful if people do not know what he is standing for. Translating the Bible from Greek/Hebrew into German was helpful, but given that the shift in life's experience from Luther to the 21st century is probably about one order of magnitude greater than the shift between Abraham and Luther, it is not enough today. It will also be necessary to translate the cultural discourse of the Bible into that of the 21 century. No-one growing up in a modern city half understands what Jesus wa on about in his agricultural parables.

A church which withdraws into itself is a laughing stock. Self respect in Christianity is never to tire of explaining and re-explaining the saving grace of Christ in word and deed.

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... The Respectable

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Helen-Eva
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# 15025

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quote:
Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
We should be open to contentious catch phrases such as "God is a DJ", and try to fill them with meaning to which the (post)modern urbanite can relate.

The problem with this kind of thing is that it turns off plenty of people - possibly as many or more than it engages. Plenty of people may be postmodern urbanites but plenty of others are annoyed by nothing so much as by postmodern urbanites.

I really don't think there's ever going to be one approach that works for everyone. That's the whole problem with postmodern diversity. So maybe the thing is to be diverse...?

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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Molopata the Rebel
While this is true, it does not mean that it is wrong. It only means that has (so far) not been undertaken successfully. It is of course quite an arduous undertaking. The success of the early Christians was certainly based on their social engagement, but it also helped that the NT narratives were to a greater or lesser degree all couched in the Hellenic cultural paradigm and used Greek imagery. We should be open to contentious catch phrases such as "God is a DJ", and try to fill them with meaning to which the (post)modern urbanite can relate.

The problem is that the more 'up-to-date' something is, the sooner it becomes dated. What percentage of the population do you think would respond well to "God is a DJ." Remember it is not just young people who are unchurched.

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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RadicalWhig
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# 13190

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quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
When God has no effect in your life or after why?

Because worship isn't about trading favours or placating deities; it is an natural expression of awe and wonder at Existence.

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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Well, it's funny you should mention it; my hard-drive is crammed full of various half-baked attempts to do just that.

In other words, you ARE trying to start a second Reformation. You just haven't got your tract together yet.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Well, it's funny you should mention it; my hard-drive is crammed full of various half-baked attempts to do just that.

In other words, you ARE trying to start a second Reformation. You just haven't got your tract together yet.
And when he does it will be way too long to nail to the church door.

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Even more so than I was before

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RadicalWhig
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# 13190

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I lobby on political issues, but I don't want to be Prime Minister.

I'm involved in a charity, but I don't want to be its chairman.

I'm keen on a reformation of Christianity, but I don't try to lead it.

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND, PEOPLE?

Are you just taunting me for the fucking fun of it?

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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)

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Moo

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# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I lobby on political issues, but I don't want to be Prime Minister.

I'm involved in a charity, but I don't want to be its chairman.

I'm keen on a reformation of Christianity, but I don't try to lead it.

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND, PEOPLE?

The political party you support already exists. The charity you are involved with already exists. AFAIK the Christian reform movement you want does not exist.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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rugasaw
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# 7315

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quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Because worship isn't about trading favours or placating deities; it is an natural expression of awe and wonder at Existence.

As a Christian I agree with you to a point. I also see worship as being in communion with ones fellows and for me God. And, for me, Christianity is never about trading favors at any time. Also I naturally express my awe and wonder at existence at times like hiking, athletics, fishing, listening to music, watching a fire, watching a storm roll in, and various other experiences.

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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Beating one's head against the wall in conversation with Radical Whig ... Yeas or nays only please. No substitutions allowed.

Nay.
And another Nay. The title fits what RW is struggling with.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
When God has no effect in your life or after why?

Because worship isn't about trading favours or placating deities; it is an natural expression of awe and wonder at Existence.
What you fail to understand is the vast majority of Christians do NOT participate in worship to "trade favors or placate God. It is communion with God and with fellow believers. Your perception that it is anything but for Christians is your problem, not ours.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I lobby on political issues, but I don't want to be Prime Minister.

I'm involved in a charity, but I don't want to be its chairman.

I'm keen on a reformation of Christianity, but I don't try to lead it.

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND, PEOPLE?

The political party you support already exists. The charity you are involved with already exists. AFAIK the Christian reform movement you want does not exist.

Moo

Precisely. If you are going to strike out on a genuinely new path, then you are inevitably going to be the 'leader' on that new path to begin with, until such time as you manage to persuade one of your subsequent 'followers' to take over from you.

Whether you 'want' to isn't really to the point unless and until there is actually an alternative. If it's your idea, either YOU run with it or nobody does.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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OTOH, Marx never led any revolution, but he was the spiritual father of the ideology invoking communist uprising.

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... The Respectable

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molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
quote:
Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
We should be open to contentious catch phrases such as "God is a DJ", and try to fill them with meaning to which the (post)modern urbanite can relate.

The problem with this kind of thing is that it turns off plenty of people - possibly as many or more than it engages. Plenty of people may be postmodern urbanites but plenty of others are annoyed by nothing so much as by postmodern urbanites.

I really don't think there's ever going to be one approach that works for everyone. That's the whole problem with postmodern diversity. So maybe the thing is to be diverse...?

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
The problem is that the more 'up-to-date' something is, the sooner it becomes dated. What percentage of the population do you think would respond well to "God is a DJ." Remember it is not just young people who are unchurched.

The problem with our age is that we are not dealing with a fashion fad which needs to be sat out. Something very fundamentally has changed. City dwellers live in man-made worlds where the hand of God seems very remote and is easily forgotten. In some areas of our cities, many children aren't even vaguely aware that milk comes from cows. Given that, what kind of mileage do you think Jesus has with his parables which are imbued in non-technical, agricultural imagery? Exactly none! To a lesser degree it applies to us all, even in fairly rural areas. Although I have generally always said grace before a meal, it was only after growing some of my own vegetables for first time that the full meaning of thanking God for the food, which had wonderfully grown out of the earth with no doing of my own, was indeed a gift from God. Buying your food in the supermarket and sitting in front of a dish of manufactured food utterly undermines this understanding of God's hand in the world, and renders the mealtime grace meaningless. We have to realise that these traditions just no longer work.
The NT authors worked hard to explain the OT in a new cultural paradigm in light of the experience of Jesus as messiah, and although we can't rewrite the NT, we in turn have to do the same for our age. We have to explain how the God of the Bible continues to be present in a man-made city-scape. Yes, fashions come and go, yet all of them rest in what has become a fundamental and permanent shift of culture from a natural to a man-made world. AFAIK, I don't think the church has consciously even tried to deal with our age in such terms.

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... The Respectable

Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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Molopata, I think that you are mistaken, but this is interesting and Purgatorial. Care to open a thread there? You could just copy the paragraph you just wrote as OP.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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If you promise to participate and not immediately let it drop like a stone - the usual fate of threads I start.

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... The Respectable

Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
If you promise to participate and not immediately let it drop like a stone - the usual fate of threads I start.

It's a fascinating subject I've not thought of before. I think it'd make a good OP and would certainly take part.

[Smile]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025

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I would be happy to chip in if you create a thread on this.

[ 30. June 2011, 11:35: Message edited by: Helen-Eva ]

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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged
molopata

The Ship's jack
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Ok, up we go.

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... The Respectable

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leo
Shipmate
# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I lobby on political issues, but I don't want to be Prime Minister.

I'm involved in a charity, but I don't want to be its chairman.

I'm keen on a reformation of Christianity, but I don't try to lead it.

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND, PEOPLE?

Are you just taunting me for the fucking fun of it?

Some probably are.

However, would that all Christians lobbied and were involved in charities.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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