Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Challenging Fellow Christians
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Once again?
-------------------- Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
Hopefully he takes enough time to deal with the boatload of anger and bitterness he's got towards Christians. He'd be great to have discussions with on religion if he'd lose the "Christians are STUPID to believe the MYTHS and LIES and mean to everyone else" routine.
-------------------- "love all, trust few, do wrong to no one" Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
You have to allow others the dignity of being wrong. Otherwise no discourse is possible.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte: quote: RadicalWhig jumps the shark: LC acted towards me like typically smug, condescending, patronising little Christian bitch.
"Lamp Chopped is a smug, condescending, patronizing little Christian." Fine. Everyone is entitled to be wrong.
But, "little Christian bitch"?
But, for you to be reduced to potty-mouthed name-calling of one of the most measured, giving, and gracious posters on the Ship demonstrates so much more about the spiritual wasteland you inhabit than it ever could say about Lamp Chopped.
Even if Lamb Chopped were not made of awesome, it would say a lot about him, and none of it good. I mean, here he thinks he's being ~edgy~ and ~progressive~ and ~original~ and ~enlightening~, and at the slightest hint of disagreement, he's all potty-mouth sexist in a very retro (and not the fun kind) way.
-------------------- WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Actually that post gave me a twinge of nostalgia. A long, long time ago on a thread in a galaxy far away I wistfully mentioned my desire for the strapline "Christian bitch" under my avatar,* and a VERY kind but-never-revealed Shipmate put up the money (we were grovelingly poor). On second thought I opted for "ship's kebab," but I have never forgotten the kindness.
* It had been a VERY difficult year.
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: You have to allow others the dignity of being wrong. Otherwise no discourse is possible.
Quotes file.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Evensong: quote: Originally posted by Think²: That statement makes no sense.
True. Duchess said she only bible thumps once in a while.
You know, I should bible-thump more often...for shame.
-------------------- ♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮ Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: quote: Originally posted by mousethief: You have to allow others the dignity of being wrong. Otherwise no discourse is possible.
Quotes file.
Except it isn't.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by duchess: quote: Originally posted by mousethief: Duchess, you're back! Good post.
never left completely. I always have to have one steel-plated bible thump every once in awhile.
Good to see you back, D, and posting in style!
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by duchess: quote: Originally posted by mousethief: Duchess, you're back! Good post.
never left completely. I always have to have one steel-plated bible thump every once in awhile.
Good to see you back, D, and posting in style!
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
IMHO, RW is suffering from a huge amount of pain and anger, due to deciding/finding out that Christianity is a load of crap. So he's being ferocious in his attacks.
Not excusing the hurt he's causing.
FWIW.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: IMHO, RW is suffering from a huge amount of pain and anger, due to deciding/finding out that Christianity is a load of crap. So he's being ferocious in his attacks.
Not excusing the hurt he's causing.
FWIW.
More specifically, he now believes that the particular church/denomination he belonged to taught nonsense. I got the impression that this church was somewhat coercive.
The fact that he lumped together the resurrection of Jesus and talking snakes indicated that it was not mainstream.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
The hurt he's causing seems to be mainly to himself.
I'm deeply sympathetic to people who have gotten out of coercive organizations (been there, done that, got the "I survived" T-shirt) but he needs to find a more constructive way to process. Besides the "the Ship is the wrong target", there's the "sexism: not helping" thing.
-------------------- WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Moo--
Re mainstream, resurrection, and talking serpent: depends on whether you consider fund/evo churches to be *entirely* outside the mainstream. I grew up in one. Belief in the talking serpent in Eden may not currently be mainstream, but it probably was at one time. The resurrection is still pretty mainstream, AFAIK, except among churches that ONLY allow for a symbolic interpretation.
For me, the supernatural biblical stuff has always been pretty easy to accept. ("God is an ogre" stuff, not so much.) I figure if God exists, caused our existence in some way, loves us, and became incarnate, anything might happen. (And I mean those ifs--I don't know what's true.)
AG--
I haven't been in a coercive church, but I've been in other coercive groups. Glad you got out of yours!
I didn't get the impression, at least in recent memory, that RW's church is coercive. ISTM, from posts over the last 6-8 months, that he's given up Christianity as a whole, not just his church's interpretation. Seems like he still has some interest in God, if I correctly understood one or two Purg posts.
I just find myself empathizing when someone is in pain from their religious struggles; I've been there.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: I didn't get the impression, at least in recent memory, that RW's church is coercive. ISTM, from posts over the last 6-8 months, that he's given up Christianity as a whole, not just his church's interpretation. Seems like he still has some interest in God, if I correctly understood one or two Purg posts.
Man, if this is mostly a case of "convertitis", I've lost a good deal of the sympathy I had. quote: I just find myself empathizing when someone is in pain from their religious struggles; I've been there.
I can sympathize and empathize with the "in pain" part; it's the dumping on non-involved third parties/being a sexist shithead that I think is Not Good. It's not the way through. By doing so, he is really only salting his own wounds.
-------------------- WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Hugal
Shipmate
# 2734
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Posted
Sorry I have just caught up with the rest of this thread. As Gill said we have had no internet at home and I have been organising an event for CDFB so not much time to get on. CK I was not offended. As one of rare Evo Charismatics on the ship I just thought I would contribute, bring the other side of the argument. Don't worry I am not crying onto my computer at the horrible way you nasty people have treated me...honest... I'm not...honest.
-------------------- I have never done this trick in these trousers before.
Posts: 1887 | From: london | Registered: Apr 2002
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: IMHO, RW is suffering from a huge amount of pain and anger, due to deciding/finding out that Christianity is a load of crap.
No, no, it's a little more subtle than than. Christianity isn't a load of crap. There's some excellent things in it. It's just that the central story and central idea on which it is based is, to the best of our knowledge, impossible and without foundation, and thus cannot be believed by any rational, sensible, person. Which is a shame, because it would be lovely if it were true. But it isn't. So my response is to keep on living as if it were true, saying, "you know what, it really doesn't matter whether it's true, and no one should really expect anyone to believe in the truth of it, but it's a good story anyway".
I knew some pagans once. They were a decent bunch, and they went on about Thor and Odin and Loki and such like. But when I pressed them, they had the courage to admit that, of course, Thor and Odin and Loki are just made up gods. Their value lies in the tradition, in the practice, in the stories. So, essentially, paganism is a great big role-play, in which they pretend to interact with pretend characters called gods. Christianity is just the same. Jahweh, Bible-god, Wafer-god, is just a made up god. But it's still a great story. If pagans can still be pagans while not really believing in their gods, why cannot Christians be Christians without really believing in their gods? That's how I always saw it.
The shock to me was only this: (1) Discovering that almost all Christians really do believe in the magic and fairy-tales; (2) discovering that for almost all Christians believing in the magic and fairy-tales is essential, while actually living in accordance with Christian virtues doesn't matter much; (3) Discovering that pointing this out in a straightforward, forthright and honest way gets you obstracised and labelled as someone who is being "ferocuous" and who "causes hurt".
I've spent years defending Christians, saying to my non-Christian friends, "no, look, we are not really batshit crazy, the mistake is that you are taking all this stuff literally and then saying it is not true; of course it's not true, everyone - bar a few crazy fundamentalists and magic hatted Catholics knows that; but really we know it is just a story, a myth that gives meaning, that's all - the key bit is in the ethical message of Jesus".
Now I realise that I was wrong. Almost all Christians are batshit crazy, because they really do believe this stuff; they think that the little bronze age tribal deity of the bible really is the One True God. And if you don't believe it too, you are out of here!
It's that, ultimately, that pushed me out of Christianity: worshiping God in Spirit and Truth and following the teachings of the man Jesus makes it impossible for me to continue in the Christian religion.
But then, if you understood me, you'd realise that I'm really trying not to destroy Christianity, but to fulfill it.
The easiest thing is that we don't talk about it - it's too seemingly paradoxical for both religious and non-religious people to understand. All my real life friends (except the Christian ones) think I am some kind of God-intoxicated Jesus-freek. Everyone on the Ship, and my few remaining Christian friends, think I am a godless atheist. The only person who seems to half-way understand is my wife, but I think she thinks I hold several contradictory positions at alternating moments, when the reality is that I hold several consistent positions at the same time: namely
(1) There is no God but God. Only God is God. Jahweh is not God; The Bible is not God, the Wafer is not God, Jesus is not God, only God is God, and there is no God but God, and God is All-in-All: from this is the foundation of all spirituality, no matter how corrupted it might be.
(2) That human beings have evolved in God's universe as a rational, social and ecological species: from this is the root of all ethics and all virtues, no matter how corrupted they might be.
(3) Jesus of Nazareth, called the "annointed", a man who is dead, pointed the way to a natural religion of pure spirituality and humane ethics - and his way of doing that was through a non-violent social and political revolution, unlike any seen before, against the religious and secular powers of corruption, tyranny and injustice.
(4) That I find that revolution so compelling, I cannot help be part of it. This is what gives the meaning, purpose and drive to my life, and it starts from inside and works outwards. I could talk about this in Christian language, salvation, sanctification and working for what Jesus called the "Kingdom of God", or I could talk about it in less Christian terms, it makes little difference.
You see, that's why christians cannot figure it out, no matter how many times I try to explain it: I'm not really an apostate, merely a "heretic" who is forced into apostacy against a Christianity which has been grossly corrupted by priestcraft.
I deny Christianity, in order to assert it.
(I deny the creedalist, trinitarian, magic-n-fairytales, resurrecting Zombies Christianity, in order to assert the true Christianity of Natural Religion - which is some kind of "Ethical Pan/Deism").
Christians are not interested in this distinction. They prefer their invented paganism; which would be fine, if only they could remember that the stories are just stories, and that the myths are just myths. [ 23. June 2011, 18:30: Message edited by: RadicalWhig ]
-------------------- Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
And, the point of all this, of course, is that I cannot stand the persistent fucking smugness of the creedalists, who take every opportunity they can to laugh one off, or brush one aside - and they are so very, very smug that half the time they don't even realise they are doing it (as in LambChopped's case, I think - the smugness and conceit is so ingrained, and comes so naturally, that they are oblivious to it). Neither can I stand the double-standard, by which Christian smugness is ok, but pointing out that smugness gets one labelled as "troublesome".
-------------------- Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
The problem RW, is that we don't believe as you do. That does not make us "batshit crazy". That's just your opinion, which matters not, just as our opinion of you shouldn't matter to you. Personally, I'd just ask that you give us the same respect you expect from us. I respect that you no longer believe in the tenets of the Christian faith. Please respect those of us who believe differently than you do. We are not blindly ignorant or crazy. Most of us have a solid basis for our faith and belief system. You'd have picked that up from quite a few of your shipmates here if you'd ignore the ones who are only interested in causing trouble.
ETA: There are a few whose opinion does matter and whose words I will take into consideration because of their history and/or personal knowledge. Strangers, not so much.
It's funny, my nephew who is a fairly new vegan was here not long ago and had the same arrogance of "I've seen the truth and you just don't know any better or are ignoring facts for your own pleasure" that most people who change religious beliefs project on to other people - which is kind of what you're doing here. I can respect his beliefs and yours, but I have a tolerance limit for bullshit and mistreatment because of arrogance and disrespect. [ 23. June 2011, 18:54: Message edited by: Niteowl2 ]
-------------------- "love all, trust few, do wrong to no one" Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: And, the point of all this, of course, is that I cannot stand the persistent fucking smugness of the creedalists, who take every opportunity they can to laugh one off, or brush one aside - and they are so very, very smug that half the time they don't even realise they are doing it (as in LambChopped's case, I think - the smugness and conceit is so ingrained, and comes so naturally, that they are oblivious to it). Neither can I stand the double-standard, by which Christian smugness is ok, but pointing out that smugness gets one labelled as "troublesome".
Take a good long look in the mirror RW.
-------------------- "love all, trust few, do wrong to no one" Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Now I realise that I was wrong. Almost all Christians are batshit crazy, because they really do believe this stuff; they think that the little bronze age tribal deity of the bible really is the One True God. And if you don't believe it too, you are out of here!
Where do you get that information from?
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Niteowl2: quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: And, the point of all this, of course, is that I cannot stand the persistent fucking smugness of the creedalists, who take every opportunity they can to laugh one off, or brush one aside - and they are so very, very smug that half the time they don't even realise they are doing it (as in LambChopped's case, I think - the smugness and conceit is so ingrained, and comes so naturally, that they are oblivious to it). Neither can I stand the double-standard, by which Christian smugness is ok, but pointing out that smugness gets one labelled as "troublesome".
Take a good long look in the mirror RW.
Exactly!!!!!
Well done.
That is the absolutely typical response; throw it right back. Perhaps you are the one who needs to look in the mirror for a change, huh?
-------------------- Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: quote: Originally posted by Niteowl2: quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: And, the point of all this, of course, is that I cannot stand the persistent fucking smugness of the creedalists, who take every opportunity they can to laugh one off, or brush one aside - and they are so very, very smug that half the time they don't even realise they are doing it (as in LambChopped's case, I think - the smugness and conceit is so ingrained, and comes so naturally, that they are oblivious to it). Neither can I stand the double-standard, by which Christian smugness is ok, but pointing out that smugness gets one labelled as "troublesome".
Take a good long look in the mirror RW.
Exactly!!!!!
Well done.
That is the absolutely typical response; throw it right back. Perhaps you are the one who needs to look in the mirror for a change, huh?
I do. It's why my previous post was about respecting others beliefs, which I try my best to do. But your obsession with LC and hatred of Christians is going to the extreme. That's why I posted what I did. And you don't even blink or even risk a moment's look in that mirror.
-------------------- "love all, trust few, do wrong to no one" Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: quote: Originally posted by Niteowl2: quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: And, the point of all this, of course, is that I cannot stand the persistent fucking smugness of the creedalists, who take every opportunity they can to laugh one off, or brush one aside - and they are so very, very smug that half the time they don't even realise they are doing it (as in LambChopped's case, I think - the smugness and conceit is so ingrained, and comes so naturally, that they are oblivious to it). Neither can I stand the double-standard, by which Christian smugness is ok, but pointing out that smugness gets one labelled as "troublesome".
Take a good long look in the mirror RW.
Exactly!!!!!
Well done.
That is the absolutely typical response; throw it right back. Perhaps you are the one who needs to look in the mirror for a change, huh?
OHforgoodnessakes. Don't you have vertigo on that high horse?
You take passive-aggression to a whole quantum dimension.
[I know I probably should leave this alone, because you're going to project your projection onto me, causing something somewhere to implode in a smouldering heap of contradictions] [ 23. June 2011, 20:24: Message edited by: la vie en rouge ]
-------------------- Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by la vie en rouge: You take passive-aggression to a whole quantum dimension.
[I know I probably should leave this alone, because you're going to project your projection onto me, causing something somewhere to implode in a smouldering heap of contradictions]
Heisenburg's uncertainty principle? He can't actually be passive or aggressive till you measure him - then your perception defines the result?
-------------------- --Formerly: Gort--
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman: Heisenburg's uncertainty principle? He can't actually be passive or aggressive till you measure him - then your perception defines the result?
You obviously don't understand the uncertainty principle. Her perception doesn't define the result, but makes there be a result. What that result is is (dead cat or live cat) is not dependent upon her perception.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: (3) Jesus of Nazareth, called the "annointed", a man who is dead, pointed the way to a natural religion of pure spirituality and humane ethics - and his way of doing that was through a non-violent social and political revolution, unlike any seen before, against the religious and secular powers of corruption, tyranny and injustice.
And he called himself the son of God. So I assume that would make Jesus bat shit crazy. Which leads me to believe you follow the way of a bat shit crazy person.
By the way I am fine with all the people with various bat shit crazy beliefs, including you.
-------------------- Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: quote: Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman: Heisenburg's uncertainty principle? He can't actually be passive or aggressive till you measure him - then your perception defines the result?
You obviously don't understand the uncertainty principle. Her perception doesn't define the result, but makes there be a result. What that result is is (dead cat or live cat) is not dependent upon her perception.
But what happens if there is no cat?
-------------------- Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by rugasaw: quote: Originally posted by mousethief: quote: Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman: Heisenburg's uncertainty principle? He can't actually be passive or aggressive till you measure him - then your perception defines the result?
You obviously don't understand the uncertainty principle. Her perception doesn't define the result, but makes there be a result. What that result is is (dead cat or live cat) is not dependent upon her perception.
But what happens if there is no cat?
Einstein wins.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: ... Her perception doesn't define the result, but makes there be a result.
Are you saying measuring instruments are not defined by our perception, therefore the results are not? [ 24. June 2011, 00:19: Message edited by: Alfred E. Neuman ]
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
RW--
Ok. Given that you are evidently angry and not fragile, and you probably know that I'm not against you, then let's cross swords a bit, yes? Partly for fun, and partly to think out loud.
You seem to be at a point that dear old Ambrose Bierce described in a poem, thusly:
quote: CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.
I dreamed I stood upon a hill, and, lo! The godly multitudes walked to and fro Beneath, in Sabbath garments fitly clad, With pious mien, appropriately sad, While all the church bells made a solemn din - A fire-alarm to those who lived in sin. Then saw I gazing thoughtfully below, With tranquil face, upon that holy show A tall, spare figure in a robe of white, Whose eyes diffused a melancholy light. "God keep you, strange," I exclaimed. "You are No doubt (your habit shows it) from afar; And yet I entertain the hope that you, Like these good people, are a Christian too." He raised his eyes and with a look so stern It made me with a thousand blushes burn Replied -- his manner with disdain was spiced: "What! I a Christian? No, indeed! I'm Christ." G.J.
I've always liked that, even back when I was a fundamentalist.
So...you've decided/discovered that God exists; Jesus was a good spiritual teacher and a good man, but not God; his ethical teachings are worth following; everything else is crap that was piled on; and you are fervently in favor of Jesus' ethical teachings and your "ethical pan/deism".
You've found The Truth (tm).
Now, what are you going to do about it? How are you going to live it?
I take this moment to gently point out that you're being every bit as fierce and...prickly...about this set of beliefs as you were about your previous understanding of Christianity. Which is to be expected. Whatever belief system a person chooses, they bring their self along.
IME, that's where you find out who you are and the truth of your beliefs--*whatever* they are: getting to know yourself, growing, living your life in a good way (by whatever definition), treating others in a good way. It's hella hard work, whether you're a Christian, an Ethical Pan/Deist, a Zoroastrian, an Atheist, or a follower of the small, blue, stuffed dog from your childhood that sits (hidden) on the top shelf of your closet.
I'm no expert--just one fallible, searching person talking to another, from experience. Two things I, personally, have found helpful: Salinger's novel "Franny & Zooey" (stick with it--the second half is most pertinent, but you need the first half for perspective); and Bob Dylan's "My Back Pages".
Oh, and Terry Pratchett's "Carpe Jugulum", which is a vampire romp about finding out what you *really* believe. (Crass commercial: it will be the subject of the Ship's book group in July, on the Heaven board.)
So...when the anger cools down (and, realistically, you can't maintain that forever), how then shall you live?
Best of luck to you!
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman: quote: Originally posted by mousethief: ... Her perception doesn't define the result, but makes there be a result.
Are you saying measuring instruments are not defined by our perception, therefore the results are not?
No.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: Given that you are evidently angry and not fragile, and you probably know that I'm not against you, then let's cross swords a bit, yes? Partly for fun, and partly to think out loud.
Ok, good. That's something we can work with.
quote: You seem to be at a point that dear old Ambrose Bierce described in a poem, thusly:
CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.
What makes you think that?
1. I don't beleive the New Testament is a divinely inspired book.
2. Although I am, of course, concerned with the spiritual needs of my neighbour, I can do so only through attending to my own as well. (My definition of "spiritual" = awareness of the transcendent, not necessarily supernaturalism).
3. Why is this assumption made that if you disagree with a religion it is because you want to "sin'? That's precisely the double-standard I am railing against, but folks on the other side just do not see it. It is ok for them to say that, but the equivalent opposite (e.g. trinitarian creedalists only believe in magic and fairytales because it either suits them or they are too stupid to think otherwise) is "aggressive", "provocative", and demands time on the naughty step. Niteowl and La vie en rouge take note.
(It's this sort of thing that makes me wonder, time and time again, whether there is any point in trying to continue this conversation. But anyway...)
quote: So...you've decided/discovered that God exists;
I believe it, based on my best understanding of the natural evidence; I cannot claim to have discovered it or decided upon it. I believe in God the same way as I believe in gravity; when I was a self-identifying Christian, I believed in God the same way as I believe in Santa Claus - it is shift in ontology, from anti-realism to realism.Really.
quote: Jesus was a good spiritual teacher and a good man, but not God; his ethical teachings are worth following; everything else is crap that was piled on; and you are fervently in favor of Jesus' ethical teachings and your "ethical pan/deism".
A fair summation.
I should add, also, that the invocation of Jesus is not an appeal to authority. The teachings which are good are not good because he said them, rather, he is good based on an understanding of his teachings - which would still be intrinsically good no matter who taught them. They are rooted in the natural ethics of humanity as social animals.
(Actually, my ethics are more of a fusion of Aristotle and Jesus, rather than Jesus only; I agree with much of Christian Social Teaching, in a sort of Affirming Anglo-Catholic Socialist way).
quote: You've found The Truth (tm).
No. At best, I've found an approach that works for me, and which is not obviously untrue, because it does not make absurd and unsubstantiated claims.
quote: Now, what are you going to do about it? How are you going to live it?
Well, compared to when I was a Christian, I have a clearer and stronger faith in God and a more immediate sense of God's presence. That helps. Also, being honest about not believing in the magic and fairytales helps me to concentrate on the important practicalities of religion, in terms of applying a grace-based, kenotic virtue ethic to my personal, social, civic, economic and political relationships.
This is true on the micro-level (e.g. helping out friends, being more patient with my wife when she is flexing her Spanish temper, trying to be a good neighbour by taking the bins out) as well as on the macro-level (e.g. leaving a well-paid but unethical job to take lower-paid but more ethically worthwhile work, becoming a trustee of a charity promoting citizenship education).
quote: I take this moment to gently point out that you're being every bit as fierce and...prickly...about this set of beliefs as you were about your previous understanding of Christianity. Which is to be expected. Whatever belief system a person chooses, they bring their self along.
This might be a flaw of the medium; when I was a Christian I was never prickly about my beliefs - and I'm not prickly about them now. I'm actually a pretty self-depreciating sort of chap, but I don't think that comes across well on the Ship.
quote: IME, that's where you find out who you are and the truth of your beliefs--*whatever* they are: getting to know yourself, growing, living your life in a good way (by whatever definition), treating others in a good way.
Agreed.
quote: It's hella hard work, whether you're a Christian, an Ethical Pan/Deist, a Zoroastrian, an Atheist, or a follower of the small, blue, stuffed dog from your childhood that sits (hidden) on the top shelf of your closet.
Agreed.
quote: I'm no expert--just one fallible, searching person talking to another, from experience. Two things I, personally, have found helpful: Salinger's novel "Franny & Zooey" (stick with it--the second half is most pertinent, but you need the first half for perspective); and Bob Dylan's "My Back Pages".
Whatever works for you.
quote: Oh, and Terry Pratchett's "Carpe Jugulum", which is a vampire romp about finding out what you *really* believe. (Crass commercial: it will be the subject of the Ship's book group in July, on the Heaven board.
I love discworld. Incidentally, did I mention that I once spent an enjoyable weekend writing a constitution for Ankh-Morpork?
quote: So...when the anger cools down (and, realistically, you can't maintain that forever), how then shall you live?
Anger is cooling, except when stoked by Christian exclusiveness, smugness superiority and double-standards.
Other than that, I find Tom Paine's "I believe in one God, and no more; and I believe that our religious duties are to do justice, love mercy, and endeavour to make our fellow-creatures happy" useful. Also, more explicitly from the Christian tradition, the golden rule, the great commandment, and philippians 4:8-9.
-------------------- Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: quote: You've found The Truth (tm).
No. At best, I've found an approach that works for me, and which is not obviously untrue, because it does not make absurd and unsubstantiated claims.
Hear, hear! Christianity certainly does make absurd and unsubstantiated claims, which at best require 'willing suspension of disbelief'. Anyone who self-identifies as 'Christian' certainly doesn't have any sort of logical or even intellectual high ground and would do well to cultivate…wait for it…Christian humility and go for an attitude of "Yes, I know it sounds crazy but, if you'll pardon me, it's something I've chosen to believe. YMMV."
I like the apocryphal Muslim missionary in Africa who tells potential converts: "If you go with the Christians you get three gods and one wife, but with Islam you get one God and three wives."
-------------------- Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Sine Nomine: Hear, hear! Christianity certainly does make absurd and unsubstantiated claims, which at best require 'willing suspension of disbelief'. Anyone who self-identifies as 'Christian' certainly doesn't have any sort of logical or even intellectual high ground and would do well to cultivate…wait for it…Christian humility and go for an attitude of "Yes, I know it sounds crazy but, if you'll pardon me, it's something I've chosen to believe. YMMV."
If they were to do that, I'd have no objections.
-------------------- Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re Ambrose Bierce:
I was trying (and seem to have failed) to point at the "even Jesus wouldn't be a Christian" part of the poem.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: Re Ambrose Bierce:
I was trying (and seem to have failed) to point at the "even Jesus wouldn't be a Christian" part of the poem.
I thought that might have been the case, but wasn't sure; the definition bit threw me.
-------------------- Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: Incidentally, did I mention that I once spent an enjoyable weekend writing a constitution for Ankh-Morpork?
Gsp. You wrote a constitution for Ankh-Morpork?? Does that not come dangerously close to believing in a fairytale? [ 24. June 2011, 22:35: Message edited by: Molopata The Rebel ]
-------------------- ... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: Why is this assumption made that if you disagree with a religion it is because you want to "sin'?
It's probably because of statements like "I deeply regret having become a christian age 18. I should have slept with many more people at university - or at least been much less of a prig about it." (RadicalWhig) Somehow people that lose religion seem to rarely end up with a stricter morality. Rather they end up doing (or wishing they had done...) things they shouldn't be doing according to their previous religious commitments. So, in general, people want to sin after they've lost their religion, according to that religion. It's not much of a stretch to assume that they wanted to sin even before, and that this played a role in losing their religion.
quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: It is ok for them to say that, but the equivalent opposite (e.g. trinitarian creedalists only believe in magic and fairytales because it either suits them or they are too stupid to think otherwise) is "aggressive", "provocative", and demands time on the naughty step.
It's not the equivalent opposite. You attack the religious on a supposed weakness of their intellects, the religious attack you on a supposed weakness of your will. That is a big difference. Nobody likes to be called an idiot. But to be a bit of sucker for this or that is more easily excused and can even make you likeable. People will readily admit that we are all sinners, but not so readily that we are all rather stupid. Of course, it doesn't help that you are simply wrong about how incredibly unreasonable Christianity is.
quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: I'm actually a pretty self-depreciating sort of chap, but I don't think that comes across well on the Ship.
Don't worry, your relentless nasty attacks and your strict refusal to accommodate others depreciate your self sufficiently in the eyes of most.
quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: Anger is cooling, except when stoked by Christian exclusiveness, smugness superiority and double-standards.
[A]ny one can get angry - that is easy...; but to do this to the right person, to the right extent, at the right time, with the right motive, and in the right way, that is not for every one, nor is it easy. - Aristotle, "Nicomachean Ethics"
Three and a half years ago, you were in a very different place. That's water under the bridge, we need not dwell on your past. Yet people that are attracted to these things now are no more idiots than you were back then, and they do not deserve to be treated worse by you than you were by others then. The Golden Rule doesn't just apply to the present, but also to the past.
-------------------- They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
My ethics have strengthend, and become more demanding, since I quit christianity: indeed, the inability of christianity to contain a sufficiently compelling ethic was one of the reasons that my theology moved beyond it. A silly taboo on sex is not good ethics; putting people and planet before profit and power is. Your remark is typical of the sort of gnat-straining camel-swallower who fill temples with their false travesty of the gospel.
After all, I did not abandon Christianity for hedonistic atheism, but for a virtuous deism which aims to follow Jesus as one of the great sages and teachers of humanity. Just as God is bigger than your human-invented god, ethics are bigger than your bronze age taboos, and the Good News is bigger than christianity.
If I wanted easy morality I would be an evangelical, because at root it is alien to all ethics and morals: there is no virtue or goodness in anything except accepting the formulaic set of doctrines which magically effect salvation. But I do not choose that which is easy, but that which is good - you could describe it as "taking up one's cross". And yet you have the audacity, the presumption, the hubris, the arrogance, to say this reflects nothing but a weakness of my will?
-------------------- Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel: quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: Incidentally, did I mention that I once spent an enjoyable weekend writing a constitution for Ankh-Morpork?
Gsp. You wrote a constitution for Ankh-Morpork?? Does that not come dangerously close to believing in a fairytale?
Excellent point!
I'd just read Going Postal (I think); there is a part need the end where Vetriani presides over a meeting of the guilds, and this chimed well with the ideas of neo-medieval civic republicanism.
If there is a unifying direction to my research it is probably something like "How can institutions and processes of ancient and medieval republicanism be applied to improve the quality of democracy today?" So I got very excited.
I wrote a constitution for ankh-morpork because it gave me a ready-made playing field for working out ideas. I wasn't writing in the abstract, but in a well-developed scenario. I could experiment with neo-medieval republicanism, not on a blank piece of paper, but in a "living" city, filled with characters.
The story gave me images, narratives, aesthetics, structures, around which to build an imaginary project of my own - the ultimate (although very distant) purpose of which is to make life better for real people in the real world (i.e. earth, not discworld).
It's like that with Christianity.
The difference is, I don't think Terry Pratchet is God, or the Son of God, or even the Prophet of God, and I don't think that discworld - interesting, and amusing, and instructive as it is - represents reality.
Folks mustn't think, when I use words like magic and fairytales, that I am being unduely harsh. I'm not. Magic and fairytales can be good things in lots of ways - but only so long as we know that they are not really real. We can inhabit imaginary universes if we choose, and use them to provide narratives and imagery to help us; the Greeks had their myths, and they were good and useful, just as the Christian myths can be good and useful, or as Discworld novels can be good and useful. But they are only imaginary, or at best legendary - they are not real.
Incidentally, if you go to Constitutional Commission's Resources Page, and scroll down to the bottom document on the page, you can see one of the eventual spin-offs from the Ankh-Morpork idea; a hypothetical example of a civic constitution for an imaginery city called Pugin-Ruskin.
You'll also notice that it is signed, "a citizen, in exile in babylon". I'm not really in exile, and I'm not really in babylon. These are just cultural tropes which I am employing for dramatic effect - there's a certain value and usefulness in them, even a kind of allegorical truth, but it is still not real.
(I wish I had time to respond to all your comments , because you are one of the people here with whom I can have a productive conversation, but sadly, I know some have been missed.)
-------------------- Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
Or, to put it another way, I accept almost all of Christianity(*), except for its realist truth-claims.
It pains me that that matters, but unfortunately it does: if you cannot affirm the realist truth-claims, the you are not a Christian, even if you are really a Christian in the best, purest, most natural sense of the word.
(* Depends how you define it, of course)
-------------------- Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: My ethics have strengthend, and become more demanding, since I quit christianity: indeed, the inability of christianity to contain a sufficiently compelling ethic was one of the reasons that my theology moved beyond it. A silly taboo on sex is not good ethics; putting people and planet before profit and power is. Your remark is typical of the sort of gnat-straining camel-swallower who fill temples with their false travesty of the gospel.
After all, I did not abandon Christianity for hedonistic atheism, but for a virtuous deism which aims to follow Jesus as one of the great sages and teachers of humanity. Just as God is bigger than your human-invented god, ethics are bigger than your bronze age taboos, and the Good News is bigger than christianity.
If I wanted easy morality I would be an evangelical, because at root it is alien to all ethics and morals: there is no virtue or goodness in anything except accepting the formulaic set of doctrines which magically effect salvation. But I do not choose that which is easy, but that which is good - you could describe it as "taking up one's cross". And yet you have the audacity, the presumption, the hubris, the arrogance, to say this reflects nothing but a weakness of my will?
Now, this post screams self deprecation.
-------------------- Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible. -Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: Re Ambrose Bierce:
I was trying (and seem to have failed) to point at the "even Jesus wouldn't be a Christian" part of the poem.
I thought that might have been the case, but wasn't sure; the definition bit threw me.
Sorry! I should've been more clear. The entire quote is from the satirical "Devil's Dictionary", by Ambrose Bierce.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Tangent re Ankh-Morporkian constitution:
Surely, it must be
1) All power, control, and machinations reside with Lord Vetinari;
2) If you doubt #1, please leave town immediately--for your own safety.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: Or, to put it another way, I accept almost all of Christianity(*), except for its realist truth-claims.
It pains me that that matters, but unfortunately it does: if you cannot affirm the realist truth-claims, the you are not a Christian, even if you are really a Christian in the best, purest, most natural sense of the word.
(* Depends how you define it, of course)
Do you mean 'realist' as the same thing as 'literalist'? I personally don't believe in some of the literal assertions of scripture, partly because I understand some of them were not intended to be perceived that way, and partly for other reasons. But the reality behind such assertions is very 'real' indeed.
As many Christians would identify themselves with the saving grace of Christ rather than the goodness of their own works, the phrase 'a Christian in the best, purest and most natural sense of the word' probably seems a bit redundant. Though there are certainly 'good' and 'bad' Christians in terms of personal behaviour.
For me, the touchstone of any claim to faith or life-philosophy is: does it make someone a better human being? If I can regard a person's, or my own, life as - at least - attempting to be less ego-centric, more expressive of productive virtues, then imo God's Spirit is at work. If, otoh, a believer (in whatever they believe in) regresses in this process, the Spirit is being stifled.
I'm a little puzzled by your personal experience of morality and ethics. I find the opposite, that being a Christian very much constrains my freedom to suit myself and seek my own satisfaction over the good of others. But given the statement in the para above, that would be entirely consistent with my view of exercising my own belief in Christ.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Beeswax Altar: Now, this post screams self deprecation.
I can't win.
Say you are no longer a Christian, they say it is because you just want to be a sinner. Explain that that is not the case, and they say you are boasting.
Really can't bloody win.
-------------------- Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RadicalWhig: I can't win.
Say you are no longer a Christian, they say it is because you just want to be a sinner. Explain that that is not the case, and they say you are boasting.
Really can't bloody win.
I'd say stop trying to win.
I am interested in your faith journey because I feel that mine is very similar. But your need to convert others bothers me.
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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