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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Challenging Fellow Christians
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
A distinct Dejavu in this conversation (seven times seven).
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
quote:
I look forward to the moment when you grow up and realise that you're just fighting against nothing.
On the other hand, I'm looking forward to the moment when you realise that there is so much to fight against: tyranny, torture, exploitation, environmental degradation, and a hegemonic assumption of consumerist individualism - and that these require a theological response, because all socio-economic problems are political, and all politics is cultural, and all culture is at root religious - Christianity, as the root of our culture, is too important to be left to those who think it's real.
What about Christian Aid, Traidcraft, Arochas? all Christian organisations. Do you think they are doing nothing? Do you think churches are not supporting their work.
You're arguing against a very narrow view of Christianity and assuming that everyone fits the box you're stuffing us all in.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Radical Whig
Actually, I think it sort of is my job; some of us care about the state of the world and the future of humanity, and are trying to do something about it. There is a profound spiritual crisis in our civilisation, and unless we, as a culture, can address this, we are all screwed.
Why do you think it is Christians who have to change? Why don't you try proselytizing Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.
Actually, there is a religious group, Bahai which comes close to what you want. Here is a statement from their website. quote:
Bahá’u’lláh, the latest of these Messengers, brought new spiritual and social teachings for our time. His essential message is of unity. He taught the oneness of God, the oneness of the human family, and the oneness of religion.
Bahá'u'lláh said, “The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens,” and that, as foretold in all the sacred scriptures of the past, now is the time for humanity to live in unity.
Founded more than a century and a half ago, the Bahá'í Faith has spread around the globe. Members of the Bahá'í Faith live in more than 100,000 localities and come from nearly every nation, ethnic group, culture, profession, and social or economic background.
Bahá'ís believe the crucial need facing humanity is to find a unifying vision of the nature and purpose of life and of the future of society. Such a vision unfolds in the writings of Bahá'u'lláh
You seem to think that the world's problems must be solved by people who currently call themselves Christians.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
On the other hand, I'm looking forward to the moment when you realise that there is so much to fight against: tyranny, torture, exploitation, environmental degradation, and a hegemonic assumption of consumerist individualism - and that these require a theological response, because all socio-economic problems are political, and all politics is cultural, and all culture is at root religious - Christianity, as the root of our culture, is too important to be left to those who think it's real.
What about Christian Aid, Traidcraft, Arochas? all Christian organisations. Do you think they are doing nothing? Do you think churches are not supporting their work.
You're arguing against a very narrow view of Christianity and assuming that everyone fits the box you're stuffing us all in.
Missed this in RW's post. There's also World Vision, Mercy Ships, Samaritan's Purse, etc. etc. etc. Methinks RW only sees what he what he wants to see.
[ 26. June 2011, 12:11: Message edited by: Niteowl2 ]
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
And dear Radish Whig! If you were Baha'i you could move to Iraq to prosletyse the masses there.
All you have to do is open your mouth and they would come flocking to you.
to martyr you. But who cares? Then you could die for your faith.
Jolly good show, I'd say.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Really, I'm trying for a Second Reformation, more radical than the first.
In that case, you might want to examine thoughtfully how the previous one came about. Your current methodology is the equivalent of showing up at a mediaeval village and shouting at the peasants that their beliefs are insane.
If we follow your analogy and compare you with Luther, there are a few things you lack for "traction" of your attempted Reformation: (1) some kind of internal supports in which you function as a leader: pastor of a church, professor in a university; (2) external political support.
If you were clergy, you might be able to persuade some of your fellow clergy. If you taught in a seminary, you would be able to influence your students to approach Christianity in the RadicalWhig™ way. If you taught Religious Studies somewhere, you might be able to teach this. Leadership within the organization seems to be prerequisite for change; Luther was not shouting from without but within, so to speak.
Political expediency helps; it served the purposes of local princes to support Luther. Radically secularizing political leadership might help you. For example, where there is an established church, perhaps you could lobby politicians to make confession of the Creed a crime.
I am not sure that the peasants of Luther's time saw The Light of Sweet Reason and changed their habits and beliefs. Their leaders introduced this change and they (variously) went along with it. Since it seems you have neither internal church nor external political leadership, you seem to be left with the "shouty internet method". It seems not to be very effective, although admittedly the previous Reformation took a while to have effect too.
Certainly you would want to find some like-minded others and gather strength, ideas, and organization.
Speaking for myself as a relatively happy peasant in my simple beliefs, I am not interested in your pitch.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I don't hate you in the least. It's a pity you hate us.
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I don't really hate you; I just get frustrated. I think you are right in that you don't really hate me either; it feels more like your technique is just to smile sweetly in unspoken contempt.
Well, it's a text-based medium. You can't see my body language or hear my tone of voice. Therefore you bring to the conversation your own assumptions about those things, and frankly, you've got the wrong ones.
I'll never be able to convince you of this, of course. It is impossible for the human mind to devise a sentence that another human being cannot take as satirical, sarcastic, or otherwise rude. If that's the way you want to read it, I can't stop you.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
RW I still do not think you ever understood what Christianity is truly about. Then again the problem may also lie in that many Christians do not know what Christianity is about. So what are you calling Christians to do to make society better? What are you doing to make society better? Your focus probably should not be on Christians but on non-Christian. When your focus is on Christians you should be challenging them to truly live as Christ preached. Focus on the values part not on the God part.
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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Well, it's a bit odd I should come across as an atheist, when I've said time and time again that I'm not an atheist.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Yes, I know. I knew that, too, when I typed the quote you refer to, and I can't even now recall the word I meant to put in. 'Atheist' wasn't the word I wanted, but there it is nevertheless. Senior moment, I suppose.
Likening you to David Icke is probably not fair anyway. Nobody else can have the kind of dress sense he has...
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
Just a few quick points:
Firstly, I don't really think this is newbie syndrome, because I've not had a recent "conversion" or "deconversion" experience. My basic core beliefs on all the major theological points at which I diverfge from trinitarian creedalist Christianity have remained remarkably consistent for many years. All that has really changed is the label and the affiliation, and that's more because they were denied to me than because I repudiated them.
Secondly, I'm not trying to lead a reformation; I'm just an ordinary layman who is following and supporting it. More a Jenny Geddes than a Calvin. There are people like Spong, Holloway and Vernon who are leading it - wittingly or otherwise.
I would, however, be really keen to try joining a church with liturgies, hymns and sermons which concentrate on our practical and ethical response to humanity and nature, informed principally by the man Jesus of Nazareth, while being open and inclusive of those with non-trinitarian, non-creedalist, and/or non-theistic beliefs.
Thirdly, ok, LambChopped, fair enough; I am willing to accept that you were not being the smarmy little git I accused you of being, and that your good intentions were merely betrayed by the inadequacies of a text medium. My apologies.
Fourthly, I don't deny the good work done by some Christian organisations - I'm not sure where folks picked up that idea. I'm just saying that the church, as the leaven in the social lump, needs all the help it can get - including that of non-trinitarians, non-creedalists, and non-theists; if it excludes them, it is betraying its own cause.
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Without a supernatural element - what is the point of a religion ? As opposed to some form of moral philosophy. What is the point of worship in this world view ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
...I would, however, be really keen to try joining a church with liturgies, hymns and sermons which concentrate on our practical and ethical response to humanity and nature, informed principally by the man Jesus of Nazareth, while being open and inclusive of those with non-trinitarian, non-creedalist, and/or non-theistic beliefs.
Here you go! Enjoy the fellowship.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:
Here you go! Enjoy the fellowship.
They believe in penal substitutionary atonement Neuman. They're not a church. They're a cosmic child abuse cult. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Don't confuse the issue with that theological crap. They have a cool building and thousands of members with deep pockets. What's not to like?
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I'm just saying that the church, as the leaven in the social lump, needs all the help it can get - including that of non-trinitarians, non-creedalists, and non-theists; if it excludes them, it is betraying its own cause.
As far as working for the good of the individual and the common good goes, most Christians have no problem working together with those who share their concerns, irrespective of their faith background. As far as the Christian faith itself is concerned, you do not offer help. You wish to cure us of our "insanity", but we want to spread our "mental illness" to each and everyone alive. You are a declared enemy of that and thus of Christianity, even though (or perhaps because) you share our love for Christ.
Furthermore, most people who leave Christianity will not park their spirituality at the halfway house you are offering, they will simply move on and blend into our general cultural background. I certainly would do so, if I lost my faith. I would see little point in your "Jesus Appreciation Society". If Jesus is not God, then what's good about him is on offer from humanism at a bargain price. Your natural clientele are people with a sentimental attachment to church life, who have drifted away slowly from faith. However, you'll need to mellow a lot to attract them.
Finally, as far as SoF is concerned, you are not getting flak because you are so terribly challenging. You are getting flak because you are confrontational and boring. You don't have to be. Why don't you talk about the constitution of Ankh Morpork for a while? If you were to talk about interesting stuff like that a lot more, then people also would be a lot more forgiving when you go on about our collective insanity now and then...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
all socio-economic problems are political, and all politics is cultural, and all culture is at root religious - Christianity, as the root of our culture, is too important to be left to those who think it's real.
Now I get why your blatherings are so annoying - it's because you're seeking to turn Christianity into something that will promote and further your own socio-economic causes. You don't want it to be a religion, you want it to be a political institution creating good little citizens who will agree with your sociological ideals and create the "perfect democracy" under the guidance of a perfect constitution (written by yourself, naturally). You don't want it to have ideas or goals of its own, you want it to serve yours.
Get the fuck over yourself.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
Marvin, you are probably not far wrong.
Cicero, Machiavelli saw this, Rousseau saw this, Moses saw this, Mohammad saw this: the good legislator, in trying to establish a good state, should take care to encourage the best form of religion as well as the best form of political institutions.
I think, though, that my political views have a religious root, more than my religious views having a political root: yet, as both concern intra-human relations, I admit that it is hard to tell the difference.
Many of the political radicals of the 18th and early 19th century were dissenting ministers - many others were Quakers or Unitarians. It builds from a consistent ethical core, which has religious and political implications.
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
Or, to quote my signature, "trampling on the Common Prayer book", "talking against the Scriptures", and "railing against priests in general" is consistent with, and inextricably linked to, "commending Commonwealths". Maybe neither one nor the other is the cause or the effect; maybe both are effects of a common cause - a sort of equalitarian humanism.
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
Oh drat!
Ok, at root, I'm not a heretical Christian, I'm a pandeistic Humanist.
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
The key part of my previous post is, of course, the part where I tell you to get the fuck over yourself.
Seriously. You ain't all that. Your political ideas are trite and uninspired, your idolisation of constitutional governance is embarassing in its naivete, and your implicit belief that everything else in the universe should be arranged for your benefit is something most people grow out of by about the age of five.
I say it again: get the ever-loving fuck over yourself.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
Marvin, I don't know who you think I think I am, or what opinion of my own self-importance I have.
I'm not claiming to be original or groundbreaking, I'm not trying to lead a revolution or a reformation; I certainly don't think constitutions are a panacea (come on, give me a break here, and don't twist every fucking thing I say). I'm just an ordinary person who cares about the world and is trying to figure out better ways, and do something about it, before it is too late; an important part of that is the religious issue, and I'm trying to sort it out in my own mind - and, in so far as I think I've got something useful to say, to share it with others in the hope that they will also be convinced and motivated in a similar direction (I think that is what Christians call "evangelism", but it is ok when they do it). Why does that offend you? Why does it threaten you? Do you really think I think I'm something special? If so, I'd be more deluded than those who, to go back to an earlier image, believe in the talking snake theory.
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I'm not trying to lead a revolution or a reformation
Make your bloody mind up:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Really, I'm trying for a Second Reformation, more radical than the first.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
He's not a Humanist; he's a pandeistic humanist/
Why, he should start a Unitarian Church.
Oh wait! That wheel's been invented.
He should be a Buddhist.
Oh, Wait...
Or a Hindu. That would kill two birds with one stone. He could spend his entire life deciphering the Indian Constitution. And studying Sanskrit.
Then he'd be so fucking busy, we'd never hear from him again.
Yup! That's a win-win situation
Go for it, boy!
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Your natural clientele are people with a sentimental attachment to church life, who have drifted away slowly from faith. However, you'll need to mellow a lot to attract them.
This comment is so perfect it deserves showcasing.
Ingo does have a knack for hitting the nail on the head. Part of me wants to say that we've already got the Episcopal Church for this but that would be unkind, especially since I'm a card-carrying member of same. However the sermon yesterday seemed particularly useless (yet again) so I'm a little cranky this morning.
As to Mr. Whig and his ongoing angst, we've all heard of 'preaching to the choir' but I think he's invented (or perfected) 'yelling at the choir'. One shudders to think of the tantrum he threw when he found out Santa-Claus wasn't real. His life has obviously been one long series of disappointments. Bless his heart.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Part of me wants to say that we've already got the Episcopal Church
Yes, that's what I thought, too...
...but clearly I was wrong.
quote:
One shudders to think of the tantrum he threw when he found out Santa-Claus wasn't real.
No, no. All wrong.
It's more like finding out that everyone else still believes in Santa Claus, and thinks you are either a rotten egg or an attention whore when you try to point out - with increasing exasperation - that, of course, Santa Claus is not real, and that those who believe in Santa Claus must be a bit imaginative.
Marvin - hoping for, wanting to see, and being willing to take part in a reformation is one thing; leading it or starting it is quite another.
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I'm trying to sort it out in my own mind - and, in so far as I think I've got something useful to say, to share it with others in the hope that they will also be convinced and motivated in a similar direction (I think that is what Christians call "evangelism", but it is ok when they do it). Why does that offend you? Why does it threaten you? Do you really think I think I'm something special? If so, I'd be more deluded than those who, to go back to an earlier image, believe in the talking snake theory.
Once again, it's the way you express yourself, shouting at the world that you are right and everyone else who doesn't believe exactly as you do isn't just wrong, they are demented and insane. THAT is what is offensive. When Christians express themselves in that manner it isn't evangelism it's self aggrandizement couched in religious terms - and they get the same reaction from others that you've gotten here.
Don't fantasize that you are going to change Christianity, it's not gonna change. It has splintered into new theological denominations or religions when there's someone new on the block who thinks they know best, but basic Christianity has not changed.
You do have posts where you express yourself clearly without insulting the other side. Concentrate on your communication methods or you won't find many on your side - even when they agree with you.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I'm not trying to lead a revolution or a reformation
Make your bloody mind up:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Really, I'm trying for a Second Reformation, more radical than the first.
Seconded. Alternatively, be open about the fact that you're thinking out loud on the Ship, and accept the fact that you'll get a wide range of reactions, all of them worth considering without breaking out the caps lock for any more than a word at a time.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
It's a pity for Mr. Whig that Madalyn Murray O'Hair (for one) beat him to it.
I watched her interviews with David Frost, when I was a kid. She shouted a lot. Very off-putting.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
It's a pity for Mr. Whig that Madalyn Murray O'Hair (for one) beat him to it. He's sort of a day late and a dollar short with his startling news.
Ok, this is a typical one.
(1) Why do you insist that I be compared with atheists, when I am not an atheist?
(2) Why do you assume that I'm trying to be new or original, or announce "startling news". I've never claimed to have any new or original insight into this. There is no "startling news". There does not have to be.
I don't know what you believe, but you might think it a bit odd if I were to respond to the ordinary evangelical Anglican pew-warmer who says, "Jesus saves", with, "It's a pity for [whoever] that Pope Pius X (for one) beat him to it. He's sort of a day late and a dollar short with his startling news."
Do you see this? Is there any attempt at communication here at all?
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
Orfeo: To repeat, there is no inconsistency: hoping for, wanting to see, and being willing to take part in a reformation is one thing; leading it or starting it is quite another.
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Marvin - hoping for, wanting to see, and being willing to take part in a reformation is one thing; leading it or starting it is quite another.
And where on that spectrum do you claim "trying for" sits? Sounds pretty proactive to me. Sounds pretty "up there at the front shouting 'come on'" to me.
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Why do you insist that I be compared with atheists, when I am not an atheist?
Hang about, you've spent pages of this thread telling us all that our religions are nice stories that are useful in as much as they may inspire people to behave in a more socio-politically beneficial way, but that there's no actual truth in them. That talk of God is in the same general ballpark as talk of Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.
That, in a nutshell, there is no God - only stories and ideals.
Now, what's the correct word for someone who believes there is no God? Oh yes, it's ATHEIST.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Orfeo: To repeat, there is no inconsistency: hoping for, wanting to see, and being willing to take part in a reformation is one thing; leading it or starting it is quite another.
Yes, but since no one else seems to be interested in your little reformation this strikes me as rather a moot point.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I suppose, Marvin. I guess I see something more like rescuing instincts at work. Mostly, that is.
RW does sometimes come across as belonging to "a plague on all your houses" group, but also as someone who believes there actually is some kind of baby in there with with the dirty bathwater.
Hosts get chocolate from time to time. Shipmates don't get much by way of gifts. Maybe a copy of Dale Carnegie's book would make a suitable present from someone?
[ 28. June 2011, 09:14: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Hang about, you've spent pages of this thread telling us all that our religions are nice stories that are useful in as much as they may inspire people to behave in a more socio-politically beneficial way, but that there's no actual truth in them. That talk of God is in the same general ballpark as talk of Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.
That, in a nutshell, there is no God - only stories and ideals.
Now, what's the correct word for someone who believes there is no God? Oh yes, it's ATHEIST.
I agree that the correct word for someone who believes there is no God is Atheist, of course.
But that is not my position, because I do believe in God.
You are focusing on this:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
...a great big role-play, in which they pretend to interact with pretend characters called gods. Christianity is just the same. Jahweh, Bible-god, Wafer-god, is just a made up god. But it's still a great story. If pagans can still be pagans while not really believing in their gods, why cannot Christians be Christians without really believing in their gods? <...>
Almost all Christians are batshit crazy, because they really do believe this stuff; they think that the little bronze age tribal deity of the bible really is the One True God. And if you don't believe it too, you are out of here!
But you are neglecting this:
quote:
It's that, ultimately, that pushed me out of Christianity: worshiping God in Spirit and Truth and following the teachings of the man Jesus makes it impossible for me to continue in the Christian religion.
All my real life friends (except the Christian ones) think I am some kind of God-intoxicated Jesus-freek.
And, most importantly, you are neglecting this:
quote:
There is no God but God. Only God is God. Jahweh is not God; The Bible is not God, the Wafer is not God, Jesus is not God, only God is God, and there is no God but God, and God is All-in-All: from this is the foundation of all spirituality, no matter how corrupted it might be.
I don't believe in bronze age tribal deities like Ra, Jupiter, Odin, Bible-god, Jahweh, Isis or Ceres.
I do believe absolutely in Nature's God, the God of Nature, the All-in-All, the Great Architect of the Universe, etc.
In other words, there is no god but God.
That doesn't make me an atheist.
(Although it often seems a bit like this.)
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I do believe absolutely in Nature's God, the God of Nature, the All-in-All, the Great Architect of the Universe, etc.
Actually, the last of those terms is probably less appropriate, because it conjures up anthropmorphic images of a personal deity external to nature, rather than a transcendent non-supernatural, impersonal deity which is present in and through nature.
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I do believe absolutely in Nature's God, the God of Nature, the All-in-All, the Great Architect of the Universe, etc.
Actually, the last of those terms is probably less appropriate, because it conjures up anthropmorphic images of a personal deity external to nature, rather than a transcendent non-supernatural, impersonal deity which is present in and through nature.
You believe in "a transcendent non-supernatural, impersonal deity which is present in and through nature"? One which presumably doesn't act on or in the world, and which makes no demands of us and requires no worship (as such things would be inherently personal)? A god that exists in the same way that the planet exists? A god that is all-pervading in the same way that protons are all-pervading?
OK, that's not strictly speaking atheist. But it's about as close as you can come without going the whole hog.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I do believe absolutely in Nature's God, the God of Nature, the All-in-All, the Great Architect of the Universe, etc.
Actually, the last of those terms is probably less appropriate, because it conjures up anthropmorphic images of a personal deity external to nature, rather than a transcendent non-supernatural, impersonal deity which is present in and through nature.
You believe in "a transcendent non-supernatural, impersonal deity which is present in and through nature"? One which presumably doesn't act on or in the world, and which makes no demands of us and requires no worship (as such things would be inherently personal)? A god that exists in the same way that the planet exists? A god that is all-pervading in the same way that protons are all-pervading?
OK, that's not strictly speaking atheist. But it's about as close as you can come without going the whole hog.
It's panentheism, really. Bloody stupid position to hold while claiming to want to follow the teachings of a First Century, Torah-abiding, Yahweh-worshipping, Second Temple Jew, but whatever floats his boat.
[ 28. June 2011, 09:55: Message edited by: MarsmanTJ ]
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
It's panentheism, really.
No. Panentheism is God transcendent and immanent.
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
There is no God but God. Only God is God. Jahweh is not God; The Bible is not God, the Wafer is not God, Jesus is not God, only God is God, and there is no God but God, and God is All-in-All: from this is the foundation of all spirituality, no matter how corrupted it might be.
Sounds like unsubstantiated bat shit crazy stuff.
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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
Sounds like unsubstantiated bat shit crazy stuff.
Yeah. Maybe it is religion.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
It may be religion but it is religion with God cast in Rad's own image. I shudder to think what will happen when He is no longer good for Him.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Not at all.
That line just exemplifies the transcendent bit.
God exists without us and our paltry definitions.
Seeing through a mirror dimly and all that.
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
…but you might think it a bit odd if I were to respond to the ordinary evangelical Anglican pew-warmer who says, "Jesus saves", with, "It's a pity for [whoever] that Pope Pius X (for one) beat him to it. He's sort of a day late and a dollar short with his startling news."
No, actually that's pretty much what I used to think when the Jehovah's Witness types used to come a knockin' on my door. Now, fortunately, I live in a secured high-rise so they can't get in.
quote:
Is there any attempt at communication here at all?
Damn. Busted.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
Sounds like unsubstantiated bat shit crazy stuff.
Yeah. Maybe it is religion.
Well, it's a sliding scale: here you can calculate your God Delusion Index.
Mine is 20 points. So I'm a "normal human being who sees the world as it is".
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Well, it's a sliding scale: here you can calculate your God Delusion Index. Mine is 20 points. So I'm a "normal human being who sees the world as it is".
It is not the time to plant your tongue firmly in your cheeks when you are already making an arse of yourself...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
Question RW what happens when you die? If it is something other than the complete and total end of your existence on this or any other plane is there anything you can do to better your lot?
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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I think that the new title for this thread will be
Beating one's head against the wall in conversation with Radical Whig
But being the nice guy I am I thought I might put it to a vote. Yeas or nays only please. No substitutions allowed.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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