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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: Dress the Minister
Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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A funny tat incident happened in the small town where I currently live. The Roman Catholics got a new priest, young too. He has made a splash by wearing his cassock at all times. He's often seen at the Post Office in his cassock while checking the parish mailbox in the afternoon. Apparently the Catholics paid for a few cassocks for this priest to wear. This has gone over very well among both the Catholic community in town and everyone else too. It has been said that there hasn't been such a strong example of "being Catholic" around since the Grey Nuns left town.

Over at my shack across the river, the United Church minister has noted the sartorial elegance of the Catholic Priest and now wants a cassock of his own. The minister is not known for particularly high standards of clerical wear and in the past has expressed a desire to preach in a t-shirt after spending one Sunday with the Pentecostals (he was on vacation). In order to call his bluff I want to appeal to Eccles for advice on how to dress the Minister *properly*.
[Snigger]

So, assembled Eccles members, the current competition is to dress the United Church of Canada Minister. We need a good street rig and a Sunday rig. The minister currently has a medium blue gown with a white stole which he wears at Communion and baptisms. He often preaches in something looking like clericals. The church has a set of liturgical-year stoles which match the paraments. They are currently unused.

For reference, Geneva Gowns and Albs are both acceptable wear among United Church of Canada clergy. We are a United Church of Methodist, Presbyterian and Congregationalist descent, so anything from the UMC, Methodist Church of Great Britain, the Church of Scotland, the United Reformed Church, Uniting Church of Australia, etc. is acceptable.

Elegance and decorum is to be emphasized, the more traditional the better. Scottish-style vented gowns are acceptable for the purpose of this exercise.

Have at it!

[ 29. September 2011, 07:34: Message edited by: Spike ]

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Enoch
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A selection of kilts in liturgical colours?

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moveable_type
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The street rig must involve gaiters.
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Episcoterian
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My take at it (which reflects the overall weather in my neck of the woods; might not apply or be considered proper/classy dress in Canada):

Street wear

Dress trousers and clerical shirt; a jacket if weather so requires. I can do either tab or dog collar. Dog collars are rare and seen as a strictly Anglican affectation around here, though.

For hospital and parish visitation, suit and clericals, or at least jacket and clericals. That mini-stole applies for sacramental visiting.

Shirt should be in a discreet colour, black or white strongly preferred. Could get away with violet if one is Presbytery, Synod or GA Moderator, though.

For Sundays and all liturgical occasions

Black Geneva Robe. Black clerical shirt (either tab or dog collar). Stole matching Holy Table and Pulpit paraments.

During Summer months, high-collared alb, cincture and stole matching paraments. I am highly fond of this one.

For Weddings, Baptisms, Funerals, Presbytery/Synod/GA special services and all other dress-up occasions

Black Geneva robe (the one Murphy sells with the closed black velvet lining down the front); doctoral robe optional. Black clerical shirt with white bands. Dressier stole or tippet. Hood and respective head cover if applicable (not for me, though; different academic tradition etc.).


This is what I am going to wear, myself, once I get ordained. Too PCUSA-ish?

[ 23. February 2011, 22:17: Message edited by: Episcoterian ]

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ChippedChalice
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How about a T-shirt which reads "Daur ye say Mass in my lug?"

with a picture of Jenny Geddes flinging a three-legged stool at someone's head?

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Lamb Chopped
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Birthday suits are highly traditional, all the way back to Adam's time.

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Olaf
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This is what you need. The purple color one-ups the Catholic priest in rank by stressing the built-in episcopal function of UCC clergy.

When that's in the wash, there's always this.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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Episcoterian:

No, you're right in the ballpark. The UMC is a tad higher than the UCCan. Methodism gets higher the further south you. Texas Methodism* counts as Anglicanism up here.

MartinL:

[Killing me]

He'd wear them too.

* UMC church in Texas advertising "Anglo-Catholic style Eucharist."

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seasick

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Worship-wise I'd say (with my UK Methodist hat on): cassock*, gown, bands, hood, scarf for preaching services
alb and stole for the Eucharist, baptisms, weddings, funerals etc.

On the street, you can't go wrong with black clericals.

*I do personally prefer latin cassocks, but if it's traditional you're after then double-breasted is probably the order of the day for Methodists.

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dj_ordinaire
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
This is what you need. The purple color one-ups the Catholic priest in rank by stressing the built-in episcopal function of UCC clergy.

I like that concept!

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sebby
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I'm quite interested in why the 'dog collar' as opposed to the tab collar (small plastic insert) should be seen as a strictly Anglican for od dress or 'affectation' as one shipmate put it?

At one time in the UK it was rather a 'low' form of clerical dress, churchmanship being judged inversely by the amount of white collar shown.

I still think that a nothing really beats a starched linen collar worn with a vestock (backless wasitcoat) and a white collarless shirt underneath. Those white cuffs, black front and collar look unbeatable. However, it is expensive to clean and climate may have its own demands.

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Circuit Rider

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I do pretty much what Episcoterian said, except that I don't wear clericals everyday. If I did I'd do black shirt and probably tab collar for everyday since they are easier to put on. Definitely band collar for dressier occasions. I did a funeral recently where I wore the band collar with my dark suit.

I have both black academic robe and white alb and use stoles with the color of the year, matching paraments. In ordinary time I pull back a little, and wear a suit for preaching. In the summer I have been known to ditch the tie because of the heat and humidity.

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Jengie jon

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Do you want me to outline what I call Mansfield high, but is probably more correctly traditional non-conformist clergy dress.

It is:

  • Suit - black (preferable) or very dark navy blue
  • Shirt - white
  • V neck sweater - black or dark charcoal grey.
  • tie - white
  • Shoes - black

If he wants to be more traditional black or dark grey waistcoat instead of sweater and a white cravat instead of tie, but in the same colour scheme.

Jengie

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
My take at it (which reflects the overall weather in my neck of the woods; might not apply or be considered proper/classy dress in Canada):

Street wear

Dress trousers and clerical shirt; a jacket if weather so requires. I can do either tab or dog collar. Dog collars are rare and seen as a strictly Anglican affectation around here, though.

For hospital and parish visitation, suit and clericals, or at least jacket and clericals. That mini-stole applies for sacramental visiting.

Shirt should be in a discreet colour, black or white strongly preferred. Could get away with violet if one is Presbytery, Synod or GA Moderator, though.

For Sundays and all liturgical occasions

Black Geneva Robe. Black clerical shirt (either tab or dog collar). Stole matching Holy Table and Pulpit paraments.

During Summer months, high-collared alb, cincture and stole matching paraments. I am highly fond of this one.

For Weddings, Baptisms, Funerals, Presbytery/Synod/GA special services and all other dress-up occasions

Black Geneva robe (the one Murphy sells with the closed black velvet lining down the front); doctoral robe optional. Black clerical shirt with white bands. Dressier stole or tippet. Hood and respective head cover if applicable (not for me, though; different academic tradition etc.).


This is what I am going to wear, myself, once I get ordained. Too PCUSA-ish?

[Big Grin] These seems like good suggestions, though for street wear, this Presbyterian would like a nice blue clerical shirt. And rather than the Geneva gown with the closed black velvet lining down the front, I'd advocate the Scottish style vented Geneva gown with cassock. (And as I noted in another thread yesterday, I'd leave off the hood.)

I'm curious though why the distinction between "Sundays and all liturgical occasions" and "Weddings, Baptisms, Funerals, Presbytery/Synod/GA special services . . . ." Surely the latter fall under "all liturgical occasions." (And at least in the PC(USA), baptisms will normally be part of the Service for the Lord's Day on a Sunday.) FWIW, I think in the PC(USA) one would rarely see such a distinction. Normal vesting for any service, except in informal settings, would be a Geneva gown or alb and stole, possibly with collar and tabs.

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Jengie jon

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Oh to add to the Mansfield everyday wear when leading worship

Cassock (black), gown (black), scarf (black, some allow limited gold ornamentation, but in the strict cases even the embroidery is black), white bands.

Jengie

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Episcoterian
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Sebby

This is a Brazilian thing. The only clergy you'll see wearing dog collars down here are the Anglicans. Everyone else, including the RCs, will do tab collar instead.

That is, for those few who do wear clericals. Most of the Protestants prefer to suit up instead. Even among the few who wear robes, regular shirt and tie are more common than clericals.


Nick

I just wanted to add some "oomph" to these dressier occasions. I could settle for robe, stole and tabs for all occasions, though. Cassock, vented Scottish robe, bands and stole/scarf looks nice too.

IPB doesn't have any direct Scottish heritage, though (former PCUS-PCUSA mission), so I probably can't pull this one off myself. Especially because of the cassock.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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Anybody have a good picture of a Scots-type vented gown and cassock? My Google-fu is failing me at the moment.

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+Chad

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Is this the style you mean?

Not a very large image, I'm afraid.

[ 24. February 2011, 21:32: Message edited by: +Chad ]

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Metapelagius
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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Anybody have a good picture of a Scots-type vented gown and cassock? My Google-fu is failing me at the moment.

Try this (pity about the stole ....) or this - the picture about half way down. They look fairly typical.

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Jengie jon

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I really must arrange with my father to do a full how to dress as a Reformed Minister but guy on left here is I think pretty correctly wearing it, he is a Scot by the way.

Note the bands, that nearly always means cassock, not the frills on the shoulder those indicate gown.

Jengie

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Oreophagite
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So, what's the proper width for bands? An Almy cassock comes with a 2" collar gap, making for bands with 1" width each. That seems rather puny, compared to the splendid bands in the above photo.
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PD
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Around my way standard Methodist - Congregationalist - Presbyterian street dress was a grey suit, dark blue or grey clerical shirt and a dog collar. No tab collars as they are Papist/rather High Anglican. The only avoidance was of the all-black look, which was definitely MOTB (Anglo-Catholic). This distinguished them from the Anglican who wore tweed jacks, "rentman trousers" and a black stock and dog collar. The occasionally townie Anglican clergyman would wear a charcoal grey or black suit - usually with shiny elbows due to age!

PD

[ 24. February 2011, 23:37: Message edited by: PD ]

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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Actually, in Canada it's the other way around. Tab collars are the standard in the United Church of Canada, the Anglicans lean toward full dog collars.

Judging from photos of past ministers on the narthex wall and dated photos from the denominational magazine, full dogs were as popular as tabs until the 1960's when tabs became the rule.

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Amazing Grace

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The Methodist, Presbyterian, and Dutch Reformed ministers of my yoof - and the dear retired pastor who took my grandmother's funeral much later - wore their Geneva gowns (for service) over a shirt and conservative (often black) tie.

Is it now common practice to wear the gowns over clericals? (My mother's current minister eschews all forms of "clerical wear" when he's taking a service, as far as I can tell, so I don't know what the Presbies are doing these days.)

Otherwise, I'm fully signed up with the Episcoterian program. (And, if I lived in SPK's town, might contribute to a whip-round to get young Father some headgear by a Eccles-approved vendor. [Big Grin] )

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WearyPilgrim
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I've seen the occasional Anglican or Episcopal priest wear a cassock outside the church sanctuary, but I've never known a Presbyterian or Congregationalist to do so. Can anyone say otherwise?

I like cassocks; they look sharp. I've never worn one with my Geneva gown. I have to say, however, that in wearing one it helps not to be chubby. I don't qualify in that department. My gown happily covers my avoirdupois.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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It is common to wear one's gown with a clerical collar. Ties on ministers around here are less dressy than clerical collars. Mark of office, I think.

The Young Father does have a biretta, I think.

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Amazing Grace

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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
It is common to wear one's gown with a clerical collar. Ties on ministers around here are less dressy than clerical collars. Mark of office, I think.

Thanks. I can see where that comes from but I suppose in my day the GG was considered plenty of a mark [Biased] . I will note that clerical shirts were an essential part of the pastoral/visiting kit.

These days a number of them (including my mom's pastor) wear street clothes in the pulpit.
quote:
The Young Father does have a biretta, I think.
Excellent!

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+Chad

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quote:
Originally posted by Oreophagite:
So, what's the proper width for bands? An Almy cassock comes with a 2" collar gap, making for bands with 1" width each. That seems rather puny, compared to the splendid bands in the above photo.

The total width of my bands is 31/2 inches, as is the gap in my cassock collar, both from Wippell's.

Not that size matters, of course. [Biased]

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius
Try this (pity about the stole ....) or this - the picture about half way down. They look fairly typical.


Tangent alert.

Is it just me, but as an English person there is something indelibly Church of Scotland about the red carpets in both churches, particularly the one in Bainsford? I don't know whether it is the particular shade of red or something to do with the way it is laid.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Anybody have a good picture of a Scots-type vented gown and cassock? My Google-fu is failing me at the moment.

In addition to other pictures posted, try this (gown, blue cassock and tippet).

And as long as you're dressing the minister up, I'd be remiss not to mention that along with stoles in the proper season colors, stoles made of the clergy tartan (like these or these) are popular among some around here, at least during "green" seasons (even though it's a mainly blue tartan) or on special occasions. Yes, really.

quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
The Methodist, Presbyterian, and Dutch Reformed ministers of my yoof - and the dear retired pastor who took my grandmother's funeral much later - wore their Geneva gowns (for service) over a shirt and conservative (often black) tie.

Is it now common practice to wear the gowns over clericals?

In the PC(USA) in the South, my experience would lead me to believe it's maybe about 50-50 ties vs. collars.

[ 25. February 2011, 13:30: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

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Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known
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What about hats?

As for the rest of the rig, I'm throwing my lot behind Episcoterian's suggestions, although adding an option for bands in lieu of the dog/tab collar for certain functions (rare, but an option nonetheless).

Don't forget frock coats (always black). Choice of trouser restricted to either black or cashmere stripes. These are for dressy daytime affairs.

Formal dinners require at least a dinner jacket ensemble with clerical waistcoat (a gilet, per the Canadian author of this website ).

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:
What about hats?

A John Knox cap surely.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Anybody have a good picture of a Scots-type vented gown and cassock? My Google-fu is failing me at the moment.

In addition to other pictures posted, try this (gown, blue cassock and tippet).
Double posting and quoting myself to say I found another good picture here. It's from St Columba's in London.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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I was finally able to find a good picture of historic practice in the UCCan, located here.

These are the ministers of Saskatchewan Conference who ordained Lydia Gruchy, our first female minister, in 1936. She's at the lower right.

I see that dogs are the order of the day. As I said the more recent fashion has been for tabs.

John Knox cap would be just the thing.

A more recent gown picture is here of the Very Rev. Lois Wilson, Moderator from 1980-82.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

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I didn't notice anyone's mentioning preaching tabs yet. (I tried to link to Wikipedia's article "Bands (neckwear)" to no avail but you can see them described and shown there). Schoolchildren in my day must have seen drawings in their history books of the "Pilgrim" clergy so dressed in seventeenth-century Massachusetts, because that formed my first assocation.

The first time I ever saw them in real life was on the priest at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine who was serving as our tour guide through the building in 1964. I thought that they were probably low-church and definitely quaint.
But since then I have noticed them worn by clergy of a definitely high persuasion, although perhaps for some reason confined to the New York area. I've come to like seeing them, but really have no idea what they are supposed to denote or connote.

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Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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I do think adding a frock coat to the clerical wardrobe would cause a sartorial stir all on its owneo. [Biased]

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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Up here bands would be easier to get, you just get what the lawyers wear. Judges and lawyers still wear gowns and bands when in Superior Court/Court of Queen's Bench/Whatever (it goes by various names in different provinces). No wigs though for our lawyers and judges.

Anybody care to analyze the pictures I posted for sartorial components? I'm not an expert in this department.

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Circuit Rider

Ship's Itinerant
# 13088

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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Up here bands would be easier to get, you just get what the lawyers wear. Judges and lawyers still wear gowns and bands when in Superior Court/Court of Queen's Bench/Whatever (it goes by various names in different provinces). No wigs though for our lawyers and judges.

Anybody care to analyze the pictures I posted for sartorial components? I'm not an expert in this department.

Could you provide a link for getting the tabs? I might be interested in having one for special occasions and teaching. Maybe next time I am in Manitoba visiting granddaughter I can pick up a set.

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Double posting and quoting myself to say I found another good picture here. It's from St Columba's in London.

Wow that is quite a find, the eldership in communion dress!! The give away is actually the ladies, who seem to beI wonder if it is still done anywhere else in the CofS outside London!

Next Nick you will find a pic of a Moderator of General Assembly in full sartorial elegance. (I am sorry I have looked, the custom stopped in the early part of this decade, I have a picture off line but can find nothing online). For those who want I am think black velvet frock coat, lace, breeches and silver buckles but would not guarantee it.

Jengie

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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Ask and you shall receive.

Gaspard & Sons, $15, velcro fastener the neck strap, one size fits all.

Just the thing for a poor Methodist preacher.

They have an American site, mail might work for you.

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Oreophagite
Shipmate
# 10534

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quote:
Originally posted by +Chad:
quote:
Originally posted by Oreophagite:
So, what's the proper width for bands? An Almy cassock comes with a 2" collar gap, making for bands with 1" width each. That seems rather puny, compared to the splendid bands in the above photo.

The total width of my bands is 31/2 inches, as is the gap in my cassock collar, both from Wippell's.

Not that size matters, of course. [Biased]

Thank you. 3 1/2 inches? Wow! Of course, size matters.
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Cottontail

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# 12234

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quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
I do think adding a frock coat to the clerical wardrobe would cause a sartorial stir all on its owneo. [Biased]

I know a minister who wears one when he is out and about. Most elegant. A youngish man too. [Big Grin]

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Circuit Rider

Ship's Itinerant
# 13088

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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Ask and you shall receive.

Gaspard & Sons, $15, velcro fastener the neck strap, one size fits all.

Just the thing for a poor Methodist preacher.

They have an American site, mail might work for you.

Thanks! My alb came from Gaspard and although most of Gaspard's stuff is pricey, the alb was very reasonable. Haven't noticed the tabs there but I will check. $15 also sounds reasonable, and you are right about "poor Methodist preacher." Ain't none of us getting rich! [Disappointed]

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Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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You have to go to the Canadian site and the bands are in the Legal section. That section doesn't exist in the US version of the site, logically enough. American lawyers don't dress like that.

Perhaps Mrs. Rider and Young Daughter Rider could conspire to arrange for a present of some sort... [Big Grin]

[ 26. February 2011, 23:08: Message edited by: Sober Preacher's Kid ]

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804

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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
American lawyers don't dress like that.

[Frown]
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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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It was your revolution, you deal with it. [Biased]

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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This is such a good shot Sober Preacher's Kid but Full length Genevan Gown and cassock and a close up showing tabs.

Jengie

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WearyPilgrim
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# 14593

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Shadyside Presbyterian Church in Pittsburgh --- one of the cathedral churches of American Presbyterianism (figuratively, of course). They sure know how to do Reformed worship right.

That having been said, however, the button-down cassock seems unusual to me . . . more Roman.
Whaddya think?

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Episcoterian
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# 13185

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Geneva robe worn longer than the American usual... I approve! Mine is also almost cassock-lenght.

The way most people wear it (be in in Court, Academy or Church) is just plain ugly.

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Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Wow that is quite a find, the eldership in communion dress!! The give away is actually the ladies, who seem to beI wonder if it is still done anywhere else in the CofS outside London!

Does "communion dress" mean black? Totally foreign to me.

quote:
Next Nick you will find a pic of a Moderator of General Assembly in full sartorial elegance. (I am sorry I have looked, the custom stopped in the early part of this decade, I have a picture off line but can find nothing online). For those who want I am think black velvet frock coat, lace, breeches and silver buckles but would not guarantee it.
I aim too please. [Big Grin]

Try this.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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