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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Dress the Minister
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
I recall being told (many years ago) by none other than the late Canon Edward N West of NYC's Cathof StJohntheDiv that there was a length difference between Anglican and Presbyterian bands. One being 5" and the other 7". (He was correcting a priest friend of mine, who was wearing the wrong sort.)
Unfortunately, I cannot now remember which was which. I don't really need to know, I'm just wondering.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I aim too please.
I aim to spell as well, but my aim seems to be off. I do wish the edit window lasted longer.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
I recall being told (many years ago) by none other than the late Canon Edward N West of NYC's Cathof StJohntheDiv that there was a length difference between Anglican and Presbyterian bands. One being 5" and the other 7". (He was correcting a priest friend of mine, who was wearing the wrong sort.)
Unfortunately, I cannot now remember which was which. I don't really need to know, I'm just wondering.
Possibly, but I don't think it matters any more. When I have to go to the legal section of a Canadian legal and church clothier to find bands for an American Methodist preacher, such fine distinctions are hard to justify.
The market for bands in North America today is dominated by Canadian legal attire, Canadian lawyers are the only group who are required to wear them without alternative. There just isn't the choice anymore.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I'd be very interested to know what authority one might cite for the proposition that Presbyterian and Anglican bands are of different lengths. I own two sets, one of which is 4" (total) wide and 6" long and the other is 2" (total) wide and 7½" long. I wonder what denominational allegiances they signify?
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
I once heard/read (?) of another distinction:
It was said that Reformed ministers wore their bands parallel to each other (as in the Shadyside pic), while Lutheran ministers wore them at a 30° angle, as we can see in the Bands article in Wikipedia.
Does this ring true?
The explanation given was that it reflects their views on "Law and Grace" (complementing or opposed to each other, respectively). But this is probably an a posteriori symbolism, as often happens in the liturgical vestments department.
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WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
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Posted
I think the angle of the two bands from one another has more to do with the extent to which they're tucked, more than anything else. The Sed Angli. blog has great pix of various clergy wearing bands, which provide examples of this.
It's interesting to note, too, that when worn with an academic hood, the bands should always be worn OUTSIDE the hood.
The Lutheran-vs.-Reformed rule seems to be, from all that I've ever seen, that Reformed bands are longer. I've seen five- and seven-inch ones worn by Presbyterians, UCCers both American and Canadian, Congregationalists, and even the occasional Baptist. (Peter Gomes, the Harvard chaplain and a staunch Baptist, wears them regularly with cassock, Harvard gown, tippet, and hood.)
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Wow that is quite a find, the eldership in communion dress!! The give away is actually the ladies, who seem to beI wonder if it is still done anywhere else in the CofS outside London!
Does "communion dress" mean black? Totally foreign to me.
Well often yes but not necessarily, but have a close look at the suits the ladies are wearing and you will realise that for practical purposes they are identical. The men are also in morning dress, i.e. dark grey trousers and black jacket.
In a number of CofS congregations the dress of elders at communion was highly stipulated, basically a standard uniform. I know Crown Court used to have its on line, including what material the men's suit was in, the tie and so on. However that has been offline I think for about a decade.
Jengie
[ 01. March 2011, 07:43: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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Oreophagite
Shipmate
# 10534
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Posted
It looks like Wippell's offer bands in both the 5 1/2 and 7 1/2 inch length.
Furthermore, they can be ordered to be tucked in, or to be tied on.
Too many choices...
Perhaps +Chad might have additional insight on...size.
[ 01. March 2011, 12:45: Message edited by: Oreophagite ]
Posts: 247 | From: The Klipoth | Registered: Oct 2005
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Does "communion dress" mean black? Totally foreign to me.
Well often yes but not necessarily, but have a close look at the suits the ladies are wearing and you will realise that for practical purposes they are identical. The men are also in morning dress, i.e. dark grey trousers and black jacket.
In a number of CofS congregations the dress of elders at communion was highly stipulated, basically a standard uniform. I know Crown Court used to have its on line, including what material the men's suit was in, the tie and so on. However that has been offline I think for about a decade.
Thanks for the info. I did notice looking again at the picture that the men were in morning dress. Very interesting.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oreophagite:
It looks like Wippell's offer bands in both the 5 1/2 and 7 1/2 inch length.
Furthermore, they can be ordered to be tucked in, or to be tied on.
Too many choices...
Perhaps +Chad might have additional insight on...size.
I think the tie-ons are for your lawyer or academic types - Wippells are not only ecclesiastical outfitters.
As for personal preference - 71/2" to tuck in. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Tangent: This thread reminded me of the 'dress up doll' kits we used to play with as children. I looked up google to see if 'dress the minister' was available as an option. And came across these rather scary alternatives, plus a royal wedding version.
Who knew that dressing up could be so much fun?
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Low Treason
Shipmate
# 11924
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oreophagite:
It looks like Wippell's offer bands in both the 5 1/2 and 7 1/2 inch length.
Furthermore, they can be ordered to be tucked in, or to be tied on.
Too many choices...
Perhaps +Chad might have additional insight on...size.
Bands are a required part of the academic dress of male members of the university of Cambridge. AAUI the proctors and probably other senior officers wear longer bands than the hoi polloi.
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Who knew that dressing up could be so much fun?
Anglo-Catholics ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Cassocks seem to be having something of a revival within the URC. First there is this one, I suspect this one as well and finally I suspect not one but two with a great rarity stole and cassock on one in grey. The third one is I suspect the local Anglican and yet another.
Last year it was albs this year it appears to be cassocks! They are still the minority but given the number of blank searches in the past, this is quite substantial.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
<snip>Cassocks seem to be having something of a revival within the URC. First there is this one</snip>
But why, oh why, must Reformed ministers (in the broad sense) have the worst taste for stoles in the whole tat-dom?
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WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
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Posted
This is one (but not the only) reason I won't wear a stole. Supposedly, the stole is a symbol of ordination, and stoles also represent the colors of the Christian Year. Recently, however, they have taken upon themselves all sorts of silliness and gaudiness, similar to the chasubles, copes and mitres depicted in the great and infamous "Bad Vestments" blog. The point of said blog is, "It ain't about you." A good many clergy seem to forget that.
I've seen some truly beautiful handmade stoles; I've seen others that were ridiculous. And NO stole, in my not-so-humble opinion, goes with a Geneva gown. The book of Leviticus should have a prohibition against that, if it doesn't.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
<snip>Cassocks seem to be having something of a revival within the URC. First there is this one</snip>
But why, oh why, must Reformed ministers (in the broad sense) have the worst taste for stoles in the whole tat-dom?
Because they know enough to want to dress up, but not enough to know how to dress up WELL. They think being Reformed gives them a license to look ghastly.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
This is one (but not the only) reason I won't wear a stole. Supposedly, the stole is a symbol of ordination, and stoles also represent the colors of the Christian Year. Recently, however, they have taken upon themselves all sorts of silliness and gaudiness, similar to the chasubles, copes and mitres depicted in the great and infamous "Bad Vestments" blog. The point of said blog is, "It ain't about you." A good many clergy seem to forget that.
I've seen some truly beautiful handmade stoles; I've seen others that were ridiculous. And NO stole, in my not-so-humble opinion, goes with a Geneva gown. The book of Leviticus should have a prohibition against that, if it doesn't.
There are plenty of places where you can obtain decent stoles though. That there are terrible ones shouldn't stop the use of seemly ones. As to gown and stole, I agree: terrible combination.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
I haven't yet made my mind on whether the Scottish-style, open and vented gown can go well with a good stole. The Central-European Talar certainly does not.
But (IMHO) the plain black American Geneva robe looks real nice with a stole. Especially without the hood.
And for the Reformed it has the benefit of adequately conveying the dual nature of the ministry, the teaching of the Word (robe) and the administration of the Sacraments (stole).
Good stoles to go with Reformed robes should be plain satin or discreet brocade matching Table/Pulpit paraments, with equally discreet traditional symbols embroidered near the fringes. Perhaps some more gold and richer embroidery on the white ones for the high feasts, but that's it.
No cute patterns whatsoever, no trying to get any other kind of message across via the stole. And. No. Rainbows. EVER.
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
I'm on Facebook too!
Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
I haven't yet made my mind on whether the Scottish-style, open and vented gown can go well with a good stole. The Central-European Talar certainly does not.
But (IMHO) the plain black American Geneva robe looks real nice with a stole. Especially without the hood.
And for the Reformed it has the benefit of adequately conveying the dual nature of the ministry, the teaching of the Word (robe) and the administration of the Sacraments (stole).
Good stoles to go with Reformed robes should be plain satin or discreet brocade matching Table/Pulpit paraments, with equally discreet traditional symbols embroidered near the fringes. Perhaps some more gold and richer embroidery on the white ones for the high feasts, but that's it.
No cute patterns whatsoever, no trying to get any other kind of message across via the stole. And. No. Rainbows. EVER.
1. The one time I saw a Scottish-style gown worn with a stole was at a United Church of Canada congregation in Toronto. The minister, who was the church's associate pastor, wore the gown over a suit rather than a cassock and wore a hood over the stole. He looked rather ridiculous, IMHO. However if he had omitted the hood and worn a cassock under the gown I think he might have looked better.
2. American Style Geneva gown + stole is still the standard dress for Methodist ministers in Texas and the rest of the Southern US. The Geneva Gown is still mandatory at most United Methodist ordinations in the Southeastern and South Central jurisdictions- the stole is put on the minister who is being ordained as a deacon or elder in the course of the ordination. (In the North ministers-to-be are nowadays either given the choice of gown or cassock-alb or required to wear a cassock-alb.) American style Geneva gowns are designed to be worn with a stole, and look very nice with them. I never saw a minister wearing a hood in person until I went to Canada.
I disagree with the poster above who suggests that a Protestant's stole should not be elaborate. I certainly despise hippey vestments in general, though I do think Guatamalen stoles in the liturgical colors can be very nice, and are certainly some of the least expensive stoles a young minister can find. But the local Lutheran bookstore also sells quite a few stoles that are quite elaborate- gold brocade crosses on red, for instance- that would work well in a Victorian Gothic sanctuary. And I personally see no need to match the paraments, as long as I don't clash with them.
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