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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Father's Day and other such secular marketing-fests in church
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm finding this thread highly ironic, given the number of churches - Anglican ones alone, let alone anyone else - who have all but given up referring to God as "Father", preferring something along the lines of the "Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer" heresy.
I *read* about those but I very rarely come across any in real life.
In our evening service sermon the vicar said something that surprised me - twenty or thirty years ago she rarely heard people preaching about the Trinity but the concept seems to have been getting more prominent and more important recently. I can't say I've noticed myself.
But, so far at least, its more or less always been "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" as written in the liturgy, in whatever flavour of CofE church I've been in. (I can't speak for the very nice URC people down the road...)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm afraid, Ken, that in more liberal establishments around here you get 'Creator, Redeemer and Friend' and so forth.
I've had words with them over it ... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Longest service for while though - a few minutes short of two hours.
The liturgy you linked to must have taken all of twenty minutes. How did you manage to spin it out so long?
That's a rhetorical question, right? I mean you do know how these things work really, I assume. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
But for those of us whe have never met mild-mannered Anglican Evanglicalism slowly moving up the candle in all its low-key glory, the service went like this:
- Choir and clergy arrive at choir stalls about four minutes late because vicar was explaining something to someone out the front
- Non-liturgical greeting, includsing explanation of why we are doing things differently from normal, that it is Trinity Sunday and we have moved from Easter season to Ordinary Time, and that it is also Father's Day, and that the Men's Group planned the service together and are sitting at the front, and that we are having another service at 4pm at another church in the team which will be more about Trinity Sunday.
- Liturgical greeting
- Hymn Praise to the Lord, the almighty, the king of creation Which sounded a lot better than normal because lots of the men, all wearing dark suits, were sitting in a body at the front and samg lustily (as John Wesley would have said). Things start to look up.
- Confession. Slighly fluffed because Reader (me) vaguely thought that one of the clergy present would say the Absolution but they weren't expecting to so I said it myself. I imagine no-one in the congregation noticed. Or they might have thought it was a moment's silence for recollection.
- Recital of Ten Commandments
- Collect for Trinity Sunday
- Some responses from that NPW book
- Three songs mildly dated 1980s charismatic choruses in a row led by bloke from the front with microphone. A certain amount of clapping of hands and shouting of "Praise the LORD"! But not too much. We are Anglicans.
- Short "Dramatic Presentation" by the children. A veil is drawn over this. Well, actually it was a Cyberman mask.
- One of the men in the church says a few words about the rewards and joys of parenting. Went on for about ten minutes, rather than the one or two the vicar might have been expecting. Actually quite good. Lots of stuff about modelling behaviour, and funny and touching anecdotes. (Do seven year-old girls really say "Daddy lets make a deal. You stop shouting at me in the morning and I'll stop not getting ready for school"?)
- Hymn, Immortal, Invisible, God only wise (I got to sing this twice in one day)
- Notices. I lost track of the time. There were some birthdays and singing of "Happy Birthday". It was now almost an hour since the service started.
- Responsorial said canticle (if that makes sense) We used a quite from Proverbs 23, instead of our usual Psalm.
- OT reading, Genesis 27.1-29 (Isaac tricked into blessing Jacob by strategic application of bits of dead goat and quite a lot of wine)
- NT reading, Ephesians 6.1-4 (obedience and honour and stuff - as insisted on by the Men's Group)
- Sermon. Which was really good. Guest preacher started off with what sounded like a proper Trinity Sunday sermon & I wondered if he was going to ignore our odd choice of readings entirely. Then somehow segued into anecotes about his own early life which were exactly relevant - he was brought up in a culture in some ways much nearer to that of the patriarchs than we are in London, and had in fact herded his grandfather's goats and sheep when he was a child, and he had been blessed by his father on the last day he saw him alive before leaving for another country. That and some comments about a missionary priest who he said had been a second father on God to him, and then things about being an African living in England rather than a black Englishman which was directly relevant to those men sitting at the front. The sermon turned a service I thought was likely to be a mess into one of the best and most thought-provoking we've had for a while.
- Hymn, How great thou art
- Intercessions led by a member of the congregation
- Hymn, The Lord's my shepherd
- Song sung by the choir that was meant to have been done earlier in the service but had been inadvertently missed out (involving organist dashing round the front of the church to the piano, and then dashing back to organ again when we announced a different song to the one he was expecting)
- More liturgical responses from that NPW service and a final prayer
- Hymn, Be thou my vision and procession to the back of the church
- Blessing and dismissal
Nearly two hours. Honest ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 20. June 2011, 11:31: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Only too familiar! Though it sounds less of a car crash than it could have been.
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
ken's description of the service makes me shiver to my very marrow . Father's Day got a brief mention as part of the Trinity theme - more of an introduction to God the Father than a theological treatment of Father's Day itself.
As I am frequently 'corrected' to use the term 'Mothering Sunday' rather than 'Mother's Day', I occasionally slip and call Father's Day 'Fathering Sunday'. However, I think this is acceptable as it tends to fall nine months before Mothering Sunday ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
My parish church did as I assumed -- celebration of Trinity Sunday with fathers being quietly mentioned in the intercessions. In the afternoon I went to Evensong at our Trinity Cathedral -- beautiful, traditional Evensong in honor of their feast of title.
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
ken.
Too many words.
Ian J.
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Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
I completely forgot it was Fathers' Day and no one mentioned it.. It was Trinity Sunday and the glorious OT was a bit long as was the sermon, so really no need to mention a greeting card holiday.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
ken.
Too many words.
Ian J.
Yes. Good music, though.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
My (free) church doesn't follow the same liturgical path as the more established denominations, unless we feel like it, so it was a service inspired by Hallmark, about God the Father, which of course led to a sermon entitled "Who's Your Daddy?" from on Galations 3-4, and necessarily mentioning the Son and the Holy Spirit, so inadvertently becoming a Trinity-based talk, with heavy references to God as Father in both sermon and worship. We celebrated communion too, which threw in a bit more of the Son to the mix.
It was great.
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
In my 250 member parish, I would say that biologic fathers number a handful at most. If we were to celebrate some kind of Father's Day, I imagine it would be in honor of our Father Rector.
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
The Baptist church where I worship does the following:
- Father's Day – Acknowledged in the welcome and “fathers and the people that father us” mentioned in the prayers.
- Remembrance Sunday – Special service, lots of visitors.
- New Years' Eve – Nothing. (Previous churches we've attended have had services but we've always stayed well away. I sort of see the point of this and the Christmas service followed by a lunch. It means that members of the congregation who'd otherwise spend the time on their own have the opportunity to spend the time with others if they want to)
- St Valentine's Day – Not mentioned unless it falls on a Sunday.
- Mothering Sunday - Special All Age Worship service and all the women in the congregation are given a small gift. We get lots of visitors for this as many of the congregation have older children who come home specially.
- Church Birthday – Special service with visiting speaker, followed by a lunch. It’s at the same time as my birthday.
- Harvest – Special service, some visitors.
Things like Pentecost, Trinity and the Acension are usually mentioned either in the prayers or in the sermon on the relevant Sunday.
Other special Sundays celebrated include:
- Back to Church Sunday
- An all age worship service to celebrate the church’s work with children and young people and to give thanks for them and the leaders. Visiting speaker.
- Specific services where the preach is given by someone from a charity / mission supported by the church. There’s also usually a presentation on the work done. (These can either be brilliant or dire, depending on the quality of the speaker. It’s good to see what the church has supported over the year. Some are permanent – BMS, Spurgeons etc while others are chosen each year by the congregation).
- Lay Preacher’s Sunday – Service led by a local lay preacher. Minister gets an unexpected Sunday off.
- Church Swops – We do two. One that’s organised by the Association where Baptist ministers from other churches get an opportunity to preach at a church that’s very different to their own. The other is done by Churches Together and a Minister from another tradition does the service that Sunday.
Tubbs
[ 21. June 2011, 11:44: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
(And why didn't I post this OP before we'd finished planning the service? Oh well, I suppose there is a No Homework rule)
Ken, I'm responding a little late to your OP, but I thought this clarification might be useful. The "no homework threads" rule means homework in the very literal sense: we take a dim view of people using the Ship as a short cut to doing real academic research. So, for example, if a person is taking a liturgy course and had to write a paper, we wouldn't want to have an Eccles help thread for that.
But that's not the kind of help you've requested. Asking for suggestions for planning a liturgy or alt. worship event or the like is well within the remit of Ecclesiantics, and we've had such threads in the past. Feel free to invite collaboration from the wise and generous folks hereabouts.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
[ 21. June 2011, 16:54: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
In the Father's Day service I went to, the guest speaker said that it had been his custom on that Sunday to invite all fathers present to stand so that they could be prayed for. He said he no longer did this as the last time he did it in his own church he and the other leaders had got a surprise. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Anyway, grumpiness aside, seeing as people expect such secular events to be celebrated in church - and trust me, they do - what can we do in the liturgy to get the most out of it?
And what if anything is your church doing tomorrow?
...
How could that service be improved? (other than by scrapping it)
We celebrated the feast of All Saints, (the Holy and Undivided Trinity having been commemorated on the previous Sunday). There was no mention of Fathers' Day. It doesn't even enter into my consciousness and it certainly isn't the sort of thing I would expect to find included alongside, let alone replacing, the liturgical celebration of the day in a church.
However, answering the above questions about the other observances that you mention, harvest is interesting. We have no "harvest festival" as such, but the feast of the Transfiguration seems to be the nearest thing to it. It is traditionally the beginning of the Greek grape harvest and this found its way into church through a liturgical blessing of the firstfruits of the harvest, later spreading and being expanded in other parts of the world to any firstfruits. The Russians customarily bless apples, for instance, among other things. Even when the fruits are not the result of the fruit of our own labours, we still bring them to be blessed and shared as a celebration of God's grace and bounties. After all, at almost every service, we pray for "the abundance of the fruits of the earth". It seems fitting that we give thanks for that petition having been fulfilled. It doesn't really feature much in the service short of a brief prayer of blessing inserted near the end, after the Prayer Below the Ambo. That seems more than sufficient. That is the customary place for the insertion of occasional special things so that gives it due place in the minds of the people but it does not intrude into the actual celebration of the day.
From the list, the only other thing that features at my parish is Remembrance Sunday, which is always difficult to handle, precisely because it is a Sunday. Our church is in a cemetery which has a war memorial, so we use that for a few brief prayers for the departed after the Liturgy but even that is awkward.
I think a less difficult solution might be to observe this on the afternoon of the Saturday nearest Remembrance Day. That would solve the problem of public, liturgical prayers for the dead on a Sunday, moving it instead to Saturday, which is the day set aside in the liturgical week for remembering the departed. Freed from the constraints of wanting to make as little of praying for the dead as possible on a Sunday, the day could be marked with a full Pannykhida (memorial service), with all of the music and honour that is due, instead of something severely curtailed. If it were to be immediately followed by Great Vespers of the coming Sunday, (perhaps with a 2-minute silence before moving back into church), it would be more likely to actually have some people in attendance. (Most of our people travel some considerable distance to get to church and, like it or not, a short service of a mere 45 minutes' length is not going to be considered worth most of their time and expense in getting there and back).
The other observances mentioned in this thread don't really get a look-in at all at my parish.
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I would imagine that anyone choosing to become Orthodox in Britain or other historically Protestant north-western European countries knows what they are in for! They are choosing to follow the churches liturgical calendar in that way and voluntarily submitting to it.
And civic celebrations and commemorations in Greece or Russia are probably already fitted around the feasts and fasts of the Church so there won't be any percieved clash. (Well, apart from purely nationalistic things like independence days and military parades but we wouldn't want those in church anyway I hope). Things that we might use secular commemorations for will be dealt with on appropriate saint's days.
But most people here in HPNWE don't have that sort of background. People are not familiar with the saint's days. They do not expect the church calendar to over-ride the secular one they are used to (with the possible exception of the days leading up to Easter). Only a few keenies come to church on any day other than Sunday. So the kind of things you can do in an Orthodox parish can't really be done.
There is a sense in which one of the goals of the whole Anglo-Catholic project was to reintroduce that perception of the church year to Protestants. And it has partialy succeeded - typical Church of England worship has been sliding gently up the candle for over a century, and there are many CofE parishes - and even Methodist or IRC churches - that, for example, use seasonal colours, or mention saints days, who would never have dreamed of doing such a thing in the 1970s, or even 1870s.
But they only succeeded a little bit. The CofE is still very much a Protestant church, and the English people - even the Roman Catholic ones - still to some extent culturally Protestant and increasingly secular. There aren't many English-speaking people who would find it natural to parade chanting through the streets behind an ikon or a statue of their patron saint.
The Office Christmas Party is going to trump fasting for the Friday of the third week of advent for 99.9% of us, however devout we might be on Sunday morning. And maybe it should - there is little enough sense of community and fellowship in our daily lives as it is - perhaps churches ought not to try to replace or override what there is already.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
In our evening service sermon the vicar said something that surprised me - twenty or thirty years ago she rarely heard people preaching about the Trinity but the concept seems to have been getting more prominent and more important recently. I can't say I've noticed myself.
I heard Nigel Wright (principal of Spurgeon's College and a charismatic evangelical Baptist) say the same thing in a university sermon in Oxford last Sunday, which surprised me too. He attributed it partly to an increased Christian emphasis on the communal and the relational.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
In the Father's Day service I went to, the guest speaker said that it had been his custom on that Sunday to invite all fathers present to stand so that they could be prayed for. He said he no longer did this as the last time he did it in his own church he and the other leaders had got a surprise.
Perhaps members of the Mother's Union had life experiences which had not been previously known?
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Nigel Wright has been saying this for some time, Yerevan. I put it down to the influence of his Orthodox pal, Andrew Walker.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I wonder, too, if it may have anything to do with Stephen Holmes, now at St. Andrew's but formerly at King's, London (where he taught me). He is a Baptist and very keen on the doctrine of the Trinity, especially the Orthodox concept of Deisis. However his mentor was not an Orthodox but the late great Colin Gunton, who was URC.
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Joan_of_Quark
Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887
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Posted
Just wondering - do Antipodean Anglican churches celebrate Harvest Festival? And does it get in the way of Lent?
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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness
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Ascension-ite
Shipmate
# 1985
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Posted
On a slight tangent but still relevant, we have the 4th of July coming up here in the States, what is your church doing, if anything, to celebrate?
I have volunteered recently to help out in my MOTR, TEC church during the Summer, as with many people away they are sometimes short a crucifer or LEM. This is a pretty traditional large formal parish, white gloves on the crucifer, by the book (thank God), but a little more protestant than I am used to, coming from the A-C wing.
The MC said "good, next week is the 4th and we sing the national anthem, and need someone to stand at the chancel steps holding the US flag". I said that was something I felt I could not do in a church. Hopefully they won't find anyone else to do it, as for me it borders on idolatry, but then I'm an old fashioned catholic type. Appropriate, not, any thoughts on what is or isn't allowable on the 4th?
Posts: 318 | From: Old Dominion | Registered: Dec 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
We'll have a said Eucharist Monday morning, using the propers for Independence Day -- about a dozen people will show up.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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wrinkley
Apprentice
# 7673
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Posted
There are some denominations that do not have even a cross,or statues because they feel that is idolatry. I do not think an
American flag in an American church on July 4, can be called an idol. Anymore than standing for the National Anthem could be called secular song.
We have an American flag, a ECUSA flag and statues in our church. We do not worship them, but they are reminders, symbols. Stained glass windows depicting the saints, Bible scenes, and in the case of Coventry Cathedral,a motorcycle, are not idols but reminders, symbles.
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If I can see, If I can feel, If I can hear, And if I can speak,breath, and if I have love, there is nothing else that I need
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wrinkley:
There are some denominations that do not have even a cross,or statues because they feel that is idolatry. I do not think an
American flag in an American church on July 4, can be called an idol. Anymore than standing for the National Anthem could be called secular song.
Erm,why wouldn't it be called a secular song? 'Secular' just was means 'worldly' - how much more worldly can you get than a country which is, geographically, part of the world? As far as I'm concerned, a national flag is an idol, pure and simple, and bringing it into church does not make it any less profane than it was to begin with.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
Just wondering - do Antipodean Anglican churches celebrate Harvest Festival? And does it get in the way of Lent?
Just saw this. I grew up in what was then a perfectly ordinary small Anglican church in Sydney. It would now be regarded as a bit elevated. We had Harvest Sunday then in autumn, probably March/April. I can't remember the date. I haven't seen a reference to it for many years but it was celebrated in a Uniting Church Mission congregation that I saw, about 15 years ago. This church requested tinned food as evidence of the festival as that could easily be stored for later distribution.
I now attend one of the relatively few up the candle churches here, and have been there about 18 months. That gives two autumns for celebrations of harvest Festival, but we haven't done that.
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NatDogg
Shipmate
# 14347
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by wrinkley:
There are some denominations that do not have even a cross,or statues because they feel that is idolatry. I do not think an
American flag in an American church on July 4, can be called an idol. Anymore than standing for the National Anthem could be called secular song.
Erm,why wouldn't it be called a secular song? 'Secular' just was means 'worldly' - how much more worldly can you get than a country which is, geographically, part of the world? As far as I'm concerned, a national flag is an idol, pure and simple, and bringing it into church does not make it any less profane than it was to begin with.
Doesn't it all depend on that you define as worshipping? Isn't, by definition, an idol an object that is worshipped? When taken from that aspect, I don't see how a national flag starts out as an idol. Now, what you do with the flag when you bring it into the church, that's another matter. . .
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
IMNSHO things go beyond the line when the nation becomes the subject of the day instead of God ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) , or when the nation is depicted as faultless and deserving of our uncritical adoration. That kind of thing pisses me off to an extreme. And I love my country.
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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I am a bit leary of the Church being too hand-in-glove with the State - especially a godless Republic - so next Sunday will be interesting. I will be firmly in Trinity II mode and some folks will be expecting me to be in 'God bless America' mode. It will be interesting to see how it turns out. If my sense of humour is up to snuff the last hymn will be "God the All-Terrible" to the tune old Russian National Anthem. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
I sometimes wonder if I could cure them of singing the National Anthem the same way as I got rid of the fourth verse of America - by singing the original words to the tune loudly. Three weeks of "God save the Queen" got rid of the fourth verse of America. A bawdy boozing song should work even faster...
PD
[ 27. June 2011, 01:59: Message edited by: PD ]
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Ascension-ite
Shipmate
# 1985
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Posted
I'm not terribly opposed to a flag being in the church, as we have an American flag and an Episcopal Church flag which are in upright stands on either side of the chancel arch, where they remain. I'm also not terribly opposed to singing the national anthem on the 4th, although it's rather militaristic, and makes me a little uncomfortable. I think that is where it should end. Having someone hold the flag in the center of the chancel during the singing of the national anthem seems to be one step too far. It would appear as though we were singing praises to the flag. I just have a hard time with any State/Church connection. I'm not about to pledge any allegiance to any state in the House of God.
Posts: 318 | From: Old Dominion | Registered: Dec 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I am a bit leary of the Church being too hand-in-glove with the State - especially a godless Republic - so next Sunday will be interesting. I will be firmly in Trinity II mode and some folks will be expecting me to be in 'God bless America' mode.
I think the best way to handle the Fourth is the same way Memorial Day and Veterans Day can be treated; turn them all into a kind of All Souls' Day, with special intercessions for those who serve.
The Navy Hymn ("Eternal Father, strong to save") is a great hymn to use (if the Army and the Air Force don't whine too much). It is Trinitarian times two. It appeals to the Creator-God and it places the Son at creation, Jesus on the water, rebuking the storm, and asleep in Mark's boat. And, it brings to tears to the eyes.
It is number 512 in the 1940 Hymnal and 608 in the 1982 Hymnal. The alternate verses two and three provided in number 513 in the 1940 Hymnal gut the original sense and turn it into a kind of itinerary prayer.
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PD
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Posted
The Church flag and the American flag have been at the back of the church ever since we moved, which is a situation I - ahem - contrived to bring about by grumbling they were in the way wherever someone dumped them in the quire and sanctuary. They eventually made their way to the back which was where I wanted them.
As for singing the National Anthem after Mass on the Sunday before the Fourth. I allow it after the Recessional Hymn; however, some of my choices for final hymn have been a bit interesting over the last five years. One it worked out that O God of earth and altar fitted with the lessons for the day, which fits in rather more closely with my feelings about earthly governments.
Inevitably, anywhere that has a fairly strong Low Church tradition - or even the memory of one - you are going to get the flag thing on the Fourth or thereabouts. I have concluded that it is an ordinance of man to be endured for the Lord's sake. That said, I have no problem praying for those who govern, though the 1928 BCP's O Lord, save the state is a bit Orwellian for my taste.
PD
[ 27. June 2011, 02:57: Message edited by: PD ]
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Leaf
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TSA: Thank you for reminding me of "Eternal Father, Strong to Save" at this time of year.
A parish in a resort area had this hymn as a sobering reminder at the beginning of holiday season (July): there were always drownings. The hymn not only functioned as prayer and praise but also a "Let's be careful out there" message.
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Gamaliel
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Oh yes, Baptist Trainfan ... in reply to your comment up-thread ... I'm not saying that an interest in the Trinity is a purely Orthodox concern ... but there does appear to have been a renewed interest in the doctrine among various folk in Baptist/independent circles ... as well as Cappadocian Christology and, indeed, sacramental theology.
I think we're living in a time where there's a lot of cross-over and debate. I'm not sure I see much evidence of a renewed interest in the Trinity and so on in the pews though ... but perhaps these things do lend themselves to more rarefied academic debate. Really, they should be thrashed out and lived out among the people in the churches - and that applies to all of us, whatever our tradition or Tradition.
I do think, though, that people like Nigel Wright have developed a strong interest in these things as a counter-balance to some of the frothy stuff that has come in through the charismatic renewal. If the renewal itself stimulates and encourages that, then all to the good ...
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Baptist Trainfan
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Certainly my views - especially over such issues as the Social Nature of the Trinity, and seeing the Trinity as a dynamic relationship rather than as simply a static ontology - have changed over recent years. I have tried to communicate and apply them to my congregation, especially in regard to our interaction with each other and the wider community.
As I did this Trinity Sunday - although fathers did get a brief lookin!
[ 27. June 2011, 12:09: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Belle Ringer
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It's "celebrate America" Sunday next week at the church I sing in. I usually skip patriotic holiday Sundays (Memorial Day in May, Independence Day in July, Veterans Day in October). This time I'm stuck, the solo I was supposed to do yesterday got moved to next week because of rehearsal scheduling, there will be at least one song unrelated to America.
I told the music director I dislike songs celebrating war in church, which is what a lot of "patriotic" songs are. He said we won't do any of them, we will do God Bless America. (He does a mixture of patriotic and God-aware songs, unlike a Baptist church I visited last summer where what was billed as a church worship service came across to me as patriotic rally.)
I don't sing songs about war in church, so I remain seated and silent when in church they sing about bombs bursting in air, so what if it's the national anthem, it's not even superficially a God-aware song. But I've never (yet) heard the national anthem in an Episcopal or Methodist church. Yea!
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The Silent Acolyte
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I don't sing songs about war in church...
Me neither.
But, then I got to wondering about setting bits of Joshua to music. Hmmmm.
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NatDogg
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# 14347
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I don't sing songs about war in church...
Me neither.
But, then I got to wondering about setting bits of Joshua to music. Hmmmm.
Or the Psalms for that matter.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Which is the hymn about bombs bursting? I've met some odd hymns over the years, including some with some fairly repulsive imagery, but can't recall that one.
quote:
"By the light of burning martyrs,
Christ, Thy bleeding feet we track,
Toiling up new Calv’ries ever
with the cross that turns not back;"
is fairly bad, and
quote:
'Pierce my ear Lord',
is just odd. But which is the bombs one?
I share the unease about too much nationalism in church. At least 'God save the queen' is a prayer, but we don't normally have things like 'Rule Britannia' or 'Land of hope and glory' in services.
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Pigwidgeon
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Which is the hymn about bombs bursting?
This one.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Ah. I see the problem. I never knew those were the words. We don't have much occasion to encounter them, though most of us would recognise the tune.
Belle I can see why you're also querying whether those words really qualify as a hymn at all. As a foreigner, I can say that I don't think they do. But then, I'm a foreigner. It's much more of a problem for you.
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
Enoch, Pigwidgeon gave you short measure, leaving out the central stanzas which contain these irenic sentiments: quote:
[The blood of the foe’s haughty host] has washed out their foul footsteps’ pollution. / No refuge could save the hireling and slave / From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave.
More details here.
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Shadowhund
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Posted
The strangest incident I've ever encountered regarding secular holidays in church is where a priest and a soprano sang a duet of "A Whole New World" from Disney's Aladdin in honor of Columbus Day.
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NatDogg
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# 14347
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowhund:
The strangest incident I've ever encountered regarding secular holidays in church is where a priest and a soprano sang a duet of "A Whole New World" from Disney's Aladdin in honor of Columbus Day.
Shadowhund, you've got to be kidding us, no?!
I was drinking water and spit it clear cross the room when I read your post. That is, er, um. . . interesting. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Shadowhund
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I kid you not! The duet took place after communion and before the final collect.
Exactly how this liturgical travesty came to pass I do not know. Strangely enough, they actually sang it well, though they should have done it during a coffee hour.
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"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"
A.N. Wilson
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
The Navy Hymn ("Eternal Father, strong to save") is a great hymn to use (if the Army and the Air Force don't whine too much).
Indeed. It is certainly a stand-by for us on "national" weekends, although keep in mind that the Gospel of Peter being called out onto the water is going to come up later in July or August. We chose to save it for then, this year.
In the National Songs section at the back of our shiny new (5 years old) ELCA hymnal, we have This is my song, O God of all the nations, set to the tune Finlandia. It's basically a nod to "country" in general. People usually love the tune enough that they don't mind it taking up one of the hymn slots on the weekend nearest the Fourth of July.
We also use Before you, Lord, we bow by Francis Scott Key, set to the ever-popular Darwall's 148th. Once again, the tune helps to "sell" this one.
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Belle Ringer
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
In the National Songs section at the back of our shiny new (5 years old) ELCA hymnal, we have This is my song, O God of all the nations, set to the tune Finlandia. It's basically a nod to "country" in general. People usually love the tune enough that they don't mind it taking up one of the hymn slots on the weekend nearest the Fourth of July.
We also use Before you, Lord, we bow by Francis Scott Key, set to the ever-popular Darwall's 148th. Once again, the tune helps to "sell" this one.
You made me look.
Episcopal has a section "national songs":
"God Bless Our Native Land"
"My Country 'Tis of Thee" (mentions God in 4th verse)
"God of Our Fathers, Whose Almighty Hand"
America the Beautiful,
and the National Anthem ("bombs bursting in air.")
Methodist hymnal has only
"My Country 'Tis of Thee" and
America the Beautiful.
(I'm looking at the specifically national songs. "O God of every nation" is also in both hymnals.)
[ 28. June 2011, 02:50: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]
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scuffleball
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Posted
Being British I find the American custom of putting the national flag in or on a church unusual. Likewise, in Britain we don't really have denominational flags, if that's what you mean by "church flag." The only real exception would be Northern Ireland, and that has more to do with sectarianism than anything else, I think.
I had never seen "Eternal Father..." used as a naval hymn. I did, however, hear a version on "A Prairie Home Companion" that changed the latter verses to make reference to the land and air, which absolutely butchered the trinitarian theme.
The only day British churches get even slightly nationalistic is on Remembrance Day. I don't think this is simply due to military families - our college chapel celebrates it, and we have no one in the military. Remembrance Day, the national anthem tends to be sung. Unlike the US anthem, however, the British one is a prayer. Given the furore surrounding the singing of "I vow to thee" I doubt any of the peculiarities suggested above would get much truck here.
I find it interesting that you consider the US "godless". Although the US state is more secular, I get the impression that US culture and politics are far more effected by religion than the British, and that in the US there is a far bigger divide between denominations, and between religious and non-religious people. We wouldn't have collects for national days as most British holidays have religious origins any way.
For reference, popular hymns for Remembrance day are "O God our help in ages past" and "Rock of Ages."
Getting back to the original topic, for what Sundays have we developed detailed liturgies completely divorced from any prayer book - be it 1662, CW or whatever? "Nine Lessons and Carols," Remembrance Day and Christingle all spring to mind.
In a similar vein, what customs have sprung up surrounding religious events? I am thinking of funeral wakes, for instance, which have always made me feel slightly uncomfortable.
[ 28. June 2011, 08:35: Message edited by: scuffleball ]
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ken: I thought it was called Taize?
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Getting back to the original topic, for what Sundays have we developed detailed liturgies completely divorced from any prayer book - be it 1662, CW or whatever? "Nine Lessons and Carols," Remembrance Day and Christingle all spring to mind.
Not totally divorced from any prayer book. The three you mention are all included in CW Times and Seasons.
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