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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Father's Day and other such secular marketing-fests in church
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Scuffleball, I'm not sure we quite as innocent of caesaropapism as you suggest. After all, we have an established church. Many churches have the royal arms displayed in them. Although the union flag is rarely, if ever, displayed inside a church, many churches do have old regimental banners gathering dust and moth in them, and I've certainly seen the flag of St George flown outdoors from a church flag pole. Wells Cathedral regularly flies what appears to be the Saltire, which is incongruous until one realises that it's dedicated to St Andrew.
I agree with your discomfort with 'I vow to thee'. I've sometimes said that I find "And there's another country I've heard of long ago" one of the saddest lines in any hymn.
Having seen, for the first time, yesterday, the words of the US national anthem, I'd be very uncomfortable with singing it as part of a church service which one hopes is addressed to God, rather than in a wholly secular civic setting. That's what I meant when I said "Ah, I see the problem".
My own view is that it is right that the state should acknowledge the sovereignty of God. Since it is framed as a prayer, I'm comfortable singing 'God save the Queen' as a hymn. I agree with the fact that the Queen is crowned in a Christian ceremony. Although the church has problems from being established, I think the idea of an apostate state is a lot worse. But one does have to be ever aware that it is the state that is accountable to God and not vice versa. It is blasphemy when it enlists God as its servant.
I also, though this may be a digression, find it more comfortable that we owe our allegiance to a person, another human being. I know this will sound very odd to transatlantic shipmates, but the idea of opening each school day by swearing allegiance to a flag has to me a distinct whiff of idolatry.
As for 'Eternal Father', I've always known this as the sailors' hymn, but not exclusively for the RN. It belongs to all those that go down to the sea in ships and make their business upon the great waters.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
We had Trinity at my parish. I think if'n one wants to have Fathers' Day in church, one can put on a Dads' luncheon after divine worship.
Zach
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Joan_of_Quark
Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Getting back to the original topic, for what Sundays have we developed detailed liturgies completely divorced from any prayer book - be it 1662, CW or whatever? "Nine Lessons and Carols," Remembrance Day and Christingle all spring to mind.
Not totally divorced from any prayer book. The three you mention are all included in CW Times and Seasons.
Ah yes, the Commemoration of the Mutilation of the Oranges. Where would we be without that?
PS Thanks Lothlorien for answering my query on Southern Hemisphere harvests!
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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness
Posts: 1025 | From: The Book Depository | Registered: Jul 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Being British I find the American custom of putting the national flag in or on a church unusual.
I read somewhere that putting the US national flag in church started in Lutheran churches during the first (?) world war because many Lutheran churches conducted their services in German (a rare few still do occasionally) and wanted to make clear they weren't sympathizers of the enemy.
Don't know if this is THE start of national flag in churches, but it makes sense as A start.
Add the myth that THE reason people moved to the New World was to worship God, and you can too easily slide into sort of blending God and country into being the same topic, in which case why wouldn't you have the national flag in church? Sigh.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Its not in Times & Seasons AFAIR but that "fathers" liturgy I posted does seem to be authorised in the CofE. I think its from New Patterns for Worship. Which I can't say I ever liled much, it seems a little wishy-washy to be.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Its not in Times & Seasons AFAIR but that "fathers" liturgy I posted does seem to be authorised in the CofE. I think its from New Patterns for Worship. Which I can't say I ever liled much, it seems a little wishy-washy to be.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes, it is available from the C of E's website here
Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes, it is available from the C of E's website here
Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
Wherefore so disappointed? It seems slightly innocuous, a little wordy, very 'CofE' but otherwise fine. Not worth the dreaded roll of the eyes surely?
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Makes it so much harder to resist the "joys" of Fathers' Day when there's an authorised service - which means another day to lose the lectionary. Mind you, looking at that service, the CofE is trying to make sure that the service doesn't go too far adrift.
I like that the copyright information gave the blessing or other ending as "for a memorial service".
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Email received today from a local church:
quote:
We invite all those who are in Scouts, or who were Veterans of the military, civil servants firefighters, police & EMS workers and active duty military to join our processional as we begin worship services on Sunday, July 3rd. Please wear your uniform if possible. We will file into the sanctuary carrying the Texas flag and the American flag...as we celebrate Independence Day here at [church name].
At least it's not JUST military.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
[A couple of random reactions, Belle Ringer: (1) I'll bet they didn't include fire fighters etc until after 9/11. Americans became much more aware and respectful of first-responders after that. (2) I think if a church is going to do this kind of procession it's not inappropriate to include Scouts, but it does remind me of how the Scouters in my family complained about Scouts being viewed in some quarters as a sort of para-military group.]
Anyway, I'm not surprised by the church email Belle Ringer posted. It strikes me as very Southern, although probably not exclusively Southern. Our interim rector, who is from the South, included remarks about Memorial Day in her sermon the last Sunday of May. I missed it, but she commented to me afterwards about how she thinks it's "important to include holidays in the sermon." She's actually, in most things liturgical, higher up the candle than we are used to, so this was a bit of a surprise. I'm very interested in seeing what this Sunday brings, sermon- and music-wise. If there's anything unusual, I'll report back!
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
...(1) I'll bet they didn't include fire fighters etc until after 9/11. Americans became much more aware and respectful of first-responders after that. (2) I think if a church is going to do this kind of procession it's not inappropriate to include Scouts, but it does remind me of how the Scouters in my family complained about Scouts being viewed in some quarters as a sort of para-military group.
This is the first year they've honored other than military and veterans. (This is the first year they've had a procession; in the past they've had veterans stand and each state their unit and location of any war service.) But this year is the 10th anniversary of 9/11, so including firefighters might have seemed, as you say, natural. That raises the issue - if you go beyond military, which is a group with clear boundary lines, who else do you include and where do you stop?
Weren't the boy scouts modeled in a sense on military, and then girl scouts modeled on boy scouts? I thought that was the history, not paramilitary but the uniforms, having ranks (2nd class, 1st class), etc. I suppose scouts are thought of as a patriotic organization. They make a pledge to God and country.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Baden-Powell certainly modelled his boy scouts as though it were a kind of auxiliary armed force capable of surviving in enemy territory sort of thing. So even though they are not usually trained to fight in any way, there is clearly still a 'military' angle.
This includes parades, which of course they perform in many Anglican churches without any particular patriotic occasion being involved.
(I understand that during the War this confused the Nazis who imagined them as a dangerous youth combat movement, and compiled dossiers on how they would deal with them post-invasion ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) )
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Getting back to the original topic, for what Sundays have we developed detailed liturgies completely divorced from any prayer book - be it 1662, CW or whatever? "Nine Lessons and Carols," Remembrance Day and Christingle all spring to mind.
Not totally divorced from any prayer book. The three you mention are all included in CW Times and Seasons.
But they all predate that book -- they developed separately from authorised liturgy. Christingle I believe stems from the Children's Society. Nine Lessons and Carols is Eric Milner-White in the 1920s (building on others I believe).
A facebook friend has just criticised Mission Praise for containing plenty of Graham Kendrick but not God Save the Queen. -- To me that's a benefit of MP not a defect; there are plenty of things I might critise MP for but not omitting GStQ!
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Are you sure? I think it's 194.
Another benefit bites the dust.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
GSTW isn't in "Songs of Fluffiness", so that's safe.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
GSTW? God save the Workers?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
GSTW? God save the Workers?
I had thought it might be "God Save the Windsors."
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
I was more ![[Confused]](confused.gif) by the fact that it apparently needs to be in a hymnal to be sung. I've heard it only a handful of times in my life, and I can probably sing two verses without looking.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I think Barbara Windsor is quite sympathetic to Christianity, though I don't know whether she is 'saved' yet.
How about a remake of the Carry On series with Barbara and the cast of Rev? Carry on in the Vestry for starters?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Christingle I believe stems from the Children's Society.
Originally it was a Moravian custom, but the Children's Society have more recently promoted it as a Christmas-time fund-raiser.
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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