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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: CofE clergy titles
Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by minstermusic:
I have never considered 'Father' to be a particularly AC form of address - around these parts, most clergy who are middle-of-the-road use it.

One thing which does irritate me is the incorrect use of 'Reverend'. This really started after the ordination of women to the priesthood when people usually from a non-church background didn't know how to address them. (Despite what some others have said, I've never encountered 'mother') Thus interviewers will address someone as 'Reverend Angela', 'Reverend Smith', or perhaps worst of all, just plain 'Reverend'. These of course are quite wrong - the title should only be used when referring to someone as 'The Reverend Angela (or A.) Smith'.

*snip*

First prize however must go to Mrs Proudie, wife of the Bishop of Barchester, who really wore the trousers (or gaiters) in the Bishop's palace, yet very deferentially always addressed her husband as 'My Lord'.

Minstermusic is quite fortunate; North Americans have been longtime grievously oppressed by the use of Reverend as a stand-alone noun or vocative. By now it has acquired a backwoods dialectic legitimacy, I imagine, but it always grates. Here at Circumlocution Canada, I take much cheer in correcting it in correspondence dockets.

Mrs Proudie is to be emulated! My favourite clerical title was that which an NDP activist gave to the Venerable Ken Bolton, when he was elected MLA for Middlesex Centre in 1969(?), who referred to him as Comrade Archdeacon.

Speak for yourself, O Aleut!

I for one find myself quite oppressed by Anglicans who with to impute their own thinking into other people's traditions where such thinking doesn't belong.

The simple fact is that the Anglican usage is normative only for England. Most churchgoers in North America are either Roman Catholic, for whom usage is clear, or Methodist/Presbyterian/Baptist who have their own customs and those customs are much closer to the Church of Scotland's usage than the Church of England.

For instance, the United Church of Canada is quite insistent that it is Rev., not Rev'd. Ma Preacher was addressed as Rev. Ma by all her pastoral charges before her retirement.

Our house, our rules eh? It's like calling former Preacher residences which were provided by the pastoral charge Rectories instead of Manses. The former is Quite Wrong.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Augustine the Aleut
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I referred, SPK, only to Anglican usage, by Anglicans, of Anglicans, and was thinking of the folkways and speech of the area from South Alice Township to Horton Township to Bastard & Burgess. This, of course, goes beyond the thread's title, as the CoE is a minority within Anglicanism.... That UCC ministers in Smith's Falls are called Reverend and OCA bishops in Merrickville are called Vladyka are interesting facts, but this is more properly part of a wider or more denomination-specific thread.

Some former Canadian practices, such as Mr Dean and Mr Archedeacon, have almost entirely disappeared--- I have not heard either within the past twenty years. Most bishops these days are really not comfortable with "My Lord," but they can just suck it up.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Surely "M'Lord" makes no sense in the Canadian context? They were never Lords Spiritual in the CofE sense were they, i.e. they didn't get seats in the upper chamber of Parliament?
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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Surely "M'Lord" makes no sense in the Canadian context? They were never Lords Spiritual in the CofE sense were they, i.e. they didn't get seats in the upper chamber of Parliament?

First, not all UK My Lords get seats anywhere (such as judges) and the link is now broken under recent legislation. Second, in Canada the term was used officially not only of judges, but also of RC bishops (e.g., the Governor-General's letter "recognizing Mr Power in the character of Roman Catholic Bishop of Toronto," also addresses him as Your Lordship) as well as Anglican ones. The official style handbook no longer uses it although it exists still in a few of the legislation which established some dioceses.

In colonial times, a few bishops were also executive councillors (Inglis in Nova Scotia, Briand, Plessis, and Mountain in Lower Canada and Strachan in Upper Canada), but that only carried an Honourable. In recent years, the only clerical senator was a nun from Nova Scotia.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Thanks for that. Yes, I know that CofE bishops who don't sit in the Lords may also be referred to as "My Lord", but in fact that tends in practice to be done by a certain species of Sanctuary Swan. Your reminder that high court judges are similarly addressed seems more pertinent. But I wonder if in Canada as in the CofE, most of those today who would use "M'Lord" as a form of address are being rather camp.

[ 13. June 2011, 11:46: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]

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ExclamationMark
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We of the non anglican persuasion are often called vicar by those who can't work out our pecking order. I was called "Father" a while back....

It must be confusing to people that I'm neither an anglican nor do I wear a clerical collar. They seem to think somehow (at least a few admit to thinking) that you aren't the real deal ....

Fortunately there's a few (who knowing the ante) call me Pastor Mark but most people (including the children I meet from school when I'm in the Supermarket in the White Town), call me Mark.

Godo enough for my parents and hence good enough for me.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Thanks for that. Yes, I know that CofE bishops who don't sit in the Lords may also be referred to as "My Lord", but in fact that tends in practice to be done by a certain species of Sanctuary Swan. Your reminder that high court judges are similarly addressed seems more pertinent. But I wonder if in Canada as in the CofE, most of those today who would use "M'Lord" as a form of address are being rather camp.

Just a quick guess, on my part, that the Canadian users fall into three categories: primarily those who embrace the use of titles as a sign of Times Gone which they would like to return (ca. 1925 or members of the Monarchist League of Canada), a few of the camp category, and the third (in which I include myself) who simply like to annoy people. I think that there are also a few who like any sign of differentiation with Our Great Neighbour to the South, but I am not sure what the percentage would be there. Our usage has to do with our own peculiar situation.
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daviddrinkell
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quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
The Anglican Church of Canada seems not to be keen on the use of "Father" as formal address for clergy.

Not so in Newfoundland - 'Father' is the normal form of address. There are a few folk who don't feel comfortable with it and use 'Rector' or 'Reverend', but it's by far the most usual. Perhaps this is because it's convenient and short, but historically Newfoundland was further up the candle than Canada, and somewhat dubious about joining the ACC on Confederation.

'Reverend' goes much further back than OOW. It's incorrect English but very common.

Rector and Vicar describe one's appointment, rather than what one is. Historically, the Rector received the Great Tithes. If theliving was owned by, say, a monastery, they would provide a parish priest - a Vicar - but retain the Great Tithes to themselves.

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minstermusic
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I referred, SPK, only to Anglican usage, by Anglicans, of Anglicans,.... Some former Canadian practices, such as Mr Dean and Mr Archedeacon, have almost entirely disappeared--- I have not heard either within the past twenty years. Most bishops these days are really not comfortable with "My Lord," but they can just suck it up.

Just to come back to usage on this side of the pond - Roman Catholic Bishops here are addressed as 'My Lord', at least in formal situations. Confirmandi in RC schools are rehearsed in greeting the Bishop, "Good morning, My Lord",when he visits the school - unless it's the Archbishop coming to confirm, in which case it's "Your Grace".
On the other hand, I can't remember the last time I heard an Anglican bishop addressed in this way, and those I know prefer simply "Bishop John" or whatever. A new area bishop I know doesn't even use the term bishop as a title but just as the position he holds - "I'm Dave, Bishop of *******".

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Take heed ye unwise among the people: O ye fools when will ye understand? Ps.94.8.

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Is this a particularly English thing? I mean, in France, RC priests have always been "Père," haven't they?

Maybe just a Reformation thing, I guess?

No, only religious priests are Père; diocesan priests are Abbé even today. In most histories of the church in France in the 19th Century, a lot of the priests will be referred to as "Monsieur <last name>."
Thanks, Hart - very interesting. Really, I had no idea. (Would have thought that religious priests would be called Frère instead, in fact!)
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Earwig

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quote:
Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
So we've had a couple of sightings in the wild of women who are OK with others calling them Father, but none who prefer it or suggest it themselves. Maybe these fabled creatures do not in fact exist? Or maybe it's about time someone tried it!

I know one priest who refers to herself as herself Father Name - she's very high church, wears a Saturno and black shoes with silver buckles. I think it's slightly tongue-in-cheek - she'd fit right in in Eccles!

[ 13. June 2011, 13:36: Message edited by: Earwig ]

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Mama Thomas
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"Rev" seems to be very popular among some people in TEC today, especially from those who have converted and are in lowish parishes. I am of the age where it will be difficult for me to accept.

I know some bishops in certain countries in the Commonwealth who don't stop people from addressing them as "My Lord" or "Your grace," that seems to be to be a very dangerous stiuation really.

The other day someone addressed me as "pastor" before the Mass and was actually taking notes during the sermon as if he would be examined later. Obviously not of the Anglican tradition!

I used "mama" for years as my title and so did everybody else. It simply means "father" and is what Anglican priest are called in Vanuatu and the Solomon Islands. When two women priests from NZ came one time to Vanuatu, people were wondering what to call them. ' "Mama" means "father" so it won't be correct' said some. We then realised that "mama" is the Bislama word for "mother" AND the Mota word for "father" so "mama" it became for everyone.

"Good morning, Mama Dorothy, More tea, Mama Philip?" Worked out fine.

What about introducing oneself? In church, I usually am becassocked and stick out my hand and say something like, "I'm Father Thomas" or at the hospital, funeral home, or other places on job. Never do when in mufti and just say, "Thomas" during introductions.

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ExclamationMark
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Wouldn't call anyone "Father" personally - seems somewhat contradictory to scripture to me
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BroJames
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Frederick Buechner says it all in his definition of 'Reverend' in Wishful Thinking. Where he points out that 'Reverend' is a title of honour given to clergy on account of the one whom they represent. He says that it should never be used as a form of address any more than you would address your congressman in a letter, say, as "Dear Honorable Smith…" let alone used on its own as a noun for that person.
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Wouldn't call anyone "Father" personally - seems somewhat contradictory to scripture to me

Not even your dad?

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Adeodatus
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We do lots of stuff that scripture doesn't approve off. Can't remember the last time I cut one of my hands of because it offended me.

When it comes to clergy titles, it's all the Venerables, Very Reverends, Slightly Reverends and Reverend on Tuesdays that annoy me. That lot need chucking on the scrapheap.

The titles, I mean, not the people.

Although ... [Biased]

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John Holding

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And, going back some decades, there was that Archbishop of Cyprus (and president, I think), properly addressed in church as (please excuse spelling) Macarious (honorific) Macarious (first name).

John

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Wouldn't call anyone "Father" personally - seems somewhat contradictory to scripture to me

Not even your dad?
I call him dad
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:


When it comes to clergy titles, it's all the Venerables, Very Reverends, Slightly Reverends and Reverend on Tuesdays that annoy me. That lot need chucking on the scrapheap.

[Overused]

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

The simple fact is that the Anglican usage is normative only for England.

Actually what is described as Anglican usage here is only normative for a high-church minority of Anglicans - it just so happens that most north American Anglicans are part of it.

Calling somone "Father" is a sign of marked Anglo-Catholicism here. If someone says its MOTR then thats a clue that they are far enough over their side of the road that they can't see to the other side.


And people do call priests "vicar" quite commonly. And they do say "Rev so-and-so" or even "the Rev" or "a Rev" and have done for the thirty or forty years I've been hanging around churches. Its neither new nor an American import.

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Wouldn't call anyone "Father" personally - seems somewhat contradictory to scripture to me

Not even your dad?
I call him dad
What he said [Smile]

quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Titles and honorifics are not as big a deal in America as they are over there.

As a Brit who worked for a US company for 14 years, I can assure you that that is not true, On the whole Americans are far more formal than we are and care far more about rank and titles.
okay, ken
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
Martin L: That's Mr. ken to you [Razz]

Exactly! The Americans in the copmpany used "Mr Surname" more than we did, we tended to use first names for everyone.

And normal people calling people "sir" feels creepy here. In Britain it goes with uniforms and discipline - if you call someone "sir" it means they are in some sense you commanding officer and entitled to have you punished. So the military, and prisons and and schools. There is an involuntary aspect to it.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Wouldn't call anyone "Father" personally - seems somewhat contradictory to scripture to me

Not even your dad?
I call him dad
What he said [Smile]


Do you call him 'Dad' because he or you prefer it, or because of what scripture says? Plenty of priests I know get called 'Daddy X'.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Tangent alert: I was surprised during my time working in the UK that first name address was used in professional situations there so much more than in America. What I would like to ask is: how long has this been the case, and what factors contributed to the proportionately greater rise in the use of first name address in Britain relative to the USA?

[ 13. June 2011, 17:10: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]

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Doublethink.
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I think about a generation.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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OK, so what's the origin of the practice? A type of protest against the class system?
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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Titles and honorifics are not as big a deal in America as they are over there.

As a Brit who worked for a US company for 14 years, I can assure you that that is not true, On the whole Americans are far more formal than we are and care far more about rank and titles.
okay, ken
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
Martin L: That's Mr. ken to you [Razz]

Exactly! The Americans in the copmpany used "Mr Surname" more than we did, we tended to use first names for everyone.

And normal people calling people "sir" feels creepy here. In Britain it goes with uniforms and discipline - if you call someone "sir" it means they are in some sense you commanding officer and entitled to have you punished. So the military, and prisons and and schools. There is an involuntary aspect to it.

American use of "sir" and "ma'm" is, I think,
Southern and Midwestern usage - particularly Southern. (And, as you note, military.)

Nobody uses it around here, anyway - and whenever somebody does, I know they're from "someplace else" originally - or in the Marines....

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Augustine the Aleut
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Ken posts:
quote:
If someone says its MOTR then thats a clue that they are far enough over their side of the road that they can't see to the other side.
More pond difference here, Ken, although that certainly would have been the case here (in Canada) in my youth. Currently, I know several evangelical clerics (so they claim themselves to be) who are often referred to as Father Bob or Father Igor by their GLE congregants. One of my evan singer friends tells me that this is frequent at youth for Christ gatherings, where the Anglican and RC clerics get the Father and the others get the Reverend or the Pastor.

Younger small-town Ontario Anglicans will sometimes use Father, but the post-50 generation will tend to stick with Mr or Reverend. Most Anglican Cree and Inuit I know keep to the older form.

I think that here are regional variations here, given the insular nature of Canadian diocesan life, but I do not know them all.

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Carys

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quote:
Originally posted by Earwig:
quote:
Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
So we've had a couple of sightings in the wild of women who are OK with others calling them Father, but none who prefer it or suggest it themselves. Maybe these fabled creatures do not in fact exist? Or maybe it's about time someone tried it!

I know one priest who refers to herself as herself Father Name - she's very high church, wears a Saturno and black shoes with silver buckles. I think it's slightly tongue-in-cheek - she'd fit right in in Eccles!
Some of us call our vicar Father Name and she doesn't seem to mind. In fact her previous parish did so too -- at least the church where she was the first female priest and which had a tradition of calling the priest Father. She's not as high church Earwig's example. I have to say I prefer Father Name to 'Reverend Name' which our sister church uses.

Carys

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

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Angloid
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Surely our Lord's strictures against calling men 'Father' would apply equally to titles such as 'Reverend'. Only God is Father, but in the same way only God is worthy of reverence. Except insofar as we are God's representatives of course.

As I said before, I'm not fussed about titles, but of them all I prefer to be called Father, because it implies a family relationship and not social superiority. First name suits me fine though. Or in the context where every other adult male is Mr, Mr will do. Not in a church where everyone is on Christian name terms except with the vicar.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Some of us call our vicar Father Name and she doesn't seem to mind. In fact her previous parish did so too -- at least the church where she was the first female priest and which had a tradition of calling the priest Father. She's not as high church Earwig's example. I have to say I prefer Father Name to 'Reverend Name' which our sister church uses.

I can't get my mind around calling a woman "Father" and not "Mother." There must be some thought process leading to that custom that I've never experienced! [Eek!]
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Avila
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In my non-con experience older folk have been used to the minister as Mr X etc

Now we use first names mostly but Rev when formal.

I use Rev on paper when acting in role, correspondence etc but am Miss for everything else in life.

My church only has reverend no Right Rev or Very Rev etc I get very confused by the ranks of the heirachy

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Wouldn't call anyone "Father" personally - seems somewhat contradictory to scripture to me

So is eating shrimp and wearing polycotton.
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Carys

Ship's Celticist
# 78

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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Some of us call our vicar Father Name and she doesn't seem to mind. In fact her previous parish did so too -- at least the church where she was the first female priest and which had a tradition of calling the priest Father. She's not as high church Earwig's example. I have to say I prefer Father Name to 'Reverend Name' which our sister church uses.

I can't get my mind around calling a woman "Father" and not "Mother." There must be some thought process leading to that custom that I've never experienced! [Eek!]
One that sees role and gender as non-exclusionary. A priest is in some sense a 'father' this is true regardless of the gender of the priest. God is Father, but not male -- both men and women are created in his image.

Carys

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
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Mama Thomas
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# 10170

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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
qb]
I can't get my mind around calling a woman "Father" and not "Mother." There must be some thought process leading to that custom that I've never experienced! [Eek!]
It certainly isn't new; I first heard about 30 years ago!

[ 14. June 2011, 00:09: Message edited by: Mama Thomas ]

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Oblatus
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# 6278

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quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
It certainly isn't new; I first heard about 30 years ago!

Say there were an ancient community of monks, who naturally addressed each other as "Brother N." In recent years the community had gotten quite small, so they decided to open a new dormitory and to admit women into the professed community, becoming a dual monastery where they pray, eat, and work together and stay in their separate dormitories.

The monks have always called members of their community "brother," so when the first woman takes her first vows, they dub her "Brother Mary Elizabeth." Their rationale is that members of this community have always been called "Brother." They ignore the fact that the word Sister is available, has been used elsewhere, and makes sense.

That's how calling a female priest "Father" strikes me. Or perhaps I should think of it similarly to "Sir" in Star Trek: superior officers are addressed as "Sir," even if the one being addressed is a female admiral (never mind Capt. Janeway's preference for "Captain"). But Star Trek is centuries off. For now, I think gender is firmly tied to the terms "Father," "Mother," "Sister," and "Brother." The appropriate one should be used for the person.

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bib
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# 13074

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Can someone please enlighten me as to the meaning of the abbreviation TEC as I am only aware of Training and Employment Council where I live and I'm sure this is not what is referred to. Can't find the answer in FAQ.

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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

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TubaMirum
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# 8282

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"The Episcopal Church" (TEC) is the (official, I think) designation for what used to be called "Episcopal Church in the USA" (abbreviated "ECUSA").
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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:

The monks have always called members of their community "brother," so when the first woman takes her first vows, they dub her "Brother Mary Elizabeth." Their rationale is that members of this community have always been called "Brother." They ignore the fact that the word Sister is available, has been used elsewhere, and makes sense.

In this fair city we have had several female Lord Mayors in recent years. And in another borough the very genteel lady who held the office was insistent that she be addressed as 'Mr Mayor'.
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Joan_of_Quark

Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887

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Yes, I think we should use the appropriate title for the person, BUT taking into account the person's preferences, which might include using it as an opportunity to play around with the norms and to question whether we need different titles for different genders, heights, marital status, eye colours etc.

Words like "Father" and "Mother" all evoke different first thoughts in us according to culture and history and so on, which could be used as an argument for ditching them completely or trying them in new ways.

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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness

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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Wouldn't call anyone "Father" personally - seems somewhat contradictory to scripture to me

Not even your dad?
I call him dad
What he said [Smile]


Do you call him 'Dad' because he or you prefer it, or because of what scripture says? Plenty of priests I know get called 'Daddy X'.
Any title brings some kind of social or hierarchical cachet. being called "Father" in the church context is nothing to do with family as you claim since you aren't their dad in reality or in christ. It's just an affectation (which means it's really irrelevant0 or a desire to be recognised (which is spiritually to be deprecated).
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Wouldn't call anyone "Father" personally - seems somewhat contradictory to scripture to me

So is eating shrimp and wearing polycotton.
Ah but neither of them in use or misuse are capable of bigging someone up. "Father" is.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
"The Episcopal Church" (TEC) is the (official, I think) designation for what used to be called "Episcopal Church in the USA" (abbreviated "ECUSA").

It's the official DBA (doing business as)for what even farther back used to be PECUSA (Protestant Episcopal Church in the USA) and whose actual official monicker under the laws of incorporation of the State of New York is The Domestic and Foreign Missionary Society of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America (or is it the Foreign and Domestic...Society... -- never can remember which adjective comes first).
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Wouldn't call anyone "Father" personally - seems somewhat contradictory to scripture to me

So is eating shrimp and wearing polycotton.
Ah but neither of them in use or misuse are capable of bigging someone up. "Father" is.
So it's not actually the scriptural reference that matters - I thought that that was the point you were making; but the fact that in your opinion of scripture, people being called 'Father' are abusing the term.

Eclectic!

I know a few priests who give the impression that they like being called 'Father' because it gives them a certain something different to other clergy, and maybe even other people. But for the most part I'd say most 'Fatherly' clergy just take it on board as a working title; especially the Roman Catholic clergy, who couldn't get away from it if they tried.

Just because it's misused by a few, doesn't make the term redundant or wrong in call cases.

[ 14. June 2011, 12:33: Message edited by: Anselmina ]

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DangerousDeacon
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# 10582

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In Newcastle (NSW) the dominant tone is MOTR to Anglo-Catholic, and most priests go by Father - perhaps it serves to distinguish ourselves from Sydney to the south. Older parishioners seem to prefer the term "Rector" (no Vicars in this diocese). Some women priests like "Mother", others just go for "Reverend". Non-anglicans tend to call me "Father" (especially if Catholic) or "Minister" (especially if protestant). Nobody calls me "Mr" or "Dr", except for junk mail.

Incidentally, we have a Lord Bishop. My understanding is that this goes back to the 19th Century. Our Diocese was founded by Royal Letters Patent signed by Queen Victoria in 1847, as were all colonial dioceses up until the 1860's - I think the last may have been Goulburn NSW. Anyway, at that time there was a challenge to the practice, on the grounds that colonial churches were not established. So, if your Diocese was founded by Royal Letters Patent, then the Bishop is (in a sense) nobility, and hence "My Lord"; if not, you missed out.

In summary - from our jumbled wonderful history, do not expect consistency.

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'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'

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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
So is eating shrimp and wearing polycotton.

quote:
Ah but neither of them in use or misuse are capable of bigging someone up. "Father" is.
Depends how many shrimps you eat.

But seriously, the same would apply to any titles, such as 'Reverend', 'Sir' or even Vicar. I'm happy to do without them all, but if people insist on using them I prefer one that indicates a relationship of service rather than social status.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Lone voice: I'm not!

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seasick

...over the edge
# 48

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In the same passage, Christ tells us not to call anyone "teacher" either but I don't see anyone condemning the Sunday Schools of the land, nor yet those "Bible Teachers" that you see so prominently advertised in certain places.

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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TubaMirum
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# 8282

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
"The Episcopal Church" (TEC) is the (official, I think) designation for what used to be called "Episcopal Church in the USA" (abbreviated "ECUSA").

It's the official DBA (doing business as)for what even farther back used to be PECUSA (Protestant Episcopal Church in the USA) and whose actual official monicker under the laws of incorporation of the State of New York is The Domestic and Foreign Missionary Society of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America (or is it the Foreign and Domestic...Society... -- never can remember which adjective comes first).
DFMS. Check out, for instance, dfms.org!
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Wouldn't call anyone "Father" personally - seems somewhat contradictory to scripture to me

So is eating shrimp and wearing polycotton.
Ah but neither of them in use or misuse are capable of bigging someone up. "Father" is.
So it's not actually the scriptural reference that matters - I thought that that was the point you were making; but the fact that in your opinion of scripture, people being called 'Father' are abusing the term.

Eclectic!

I know a few priests who give the impression that they like being called 'Father' because it gives them a certain something different to other clergy, and maybe even other people. But for the most part I'd say most 'Fatherly' clergy just take it on board as a working title; especially the Roman Catholic clergy, who couldn't get away from it if they tried.

Just because it's misused by a few, doesn't make the term redundant or wrong in call cases.

Agreed to soem extent but you don't get builders' labourers (as I once was) being called Labourer Mark. It was usually something far ruder but Mark in a real crisis.

It's not the title nor the clothes nor the background that's important but the depth of character.

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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
In the same passage, Christ tells us not to call anyone "teacher" either but I don't see anyone condemning the Sunday Schools of the land, nor yet those "Bible Teachers" that you see so prominently advertised in certain places.

Agreed but you don't get anyone being called Teacher (name) do you? The status is sufficient rather than the (often insincere) flattery of "Father"
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
So is eating shrimp and wearing polycotton.

quote:
Ah but neither of them in use or misuse are capable of bigging someone up. "Father" is.
Depends how many shrimps you eat.

But seriously, the same would apply to any titles, such as 'Reverend', 'Sir' or even Vicar. I'm happy to do without them all, but if people insist on using them I prefer one that indicates a relationship of service rather than social status.

How does Father imply a relationship of service? It more likely implies a relationship of dependance and authority -- at best "Minister" is more service orientated but I suspect very unwieldy in conversation.

Why the beef about being known by our jobs? (Or in the case of ex service personnel their ex jobs? (Really raises my hackles when I see a letter in the local paper from Colonel Spiggot (rtd) - you don't get Paperboy Mark Exclamation 9rtd) do you). The whole thing is just a brag contest really - it's best to be known ISTM for what you are as a person not for the function you perform.

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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
it's best to be known ISTM for what you are as a person not for the function you perform.

A half truth. All things being equal, I would want to be a human being first and a priest second, preferably one respected for my human (and Christlike) qualities. But on a bad day (of which there might be many) I'd prefer simply to be acknowledged as Father Angloid, because I am God's servant whether or not I display that in my personality. And more importantly, it's not what I prefer but what enables the church to function.

Maybe 'Father' does come with additional baggage of 'this guy thinks he's superior to us'. It does link etymologically with 'patronise'. I accept that. But every other title commonly used for the clergy comes with similar baggage. I don't think people think too much about these connotations. And I certainly don't think titles are important or usually necessary (though, like a dog-collar, 'Father' can be a convenient way of identifying yourself).

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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