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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Staring at the debt ceiling
Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Speaking of the party of No, how are the Republicans stacking up as far as judicial appointees through the Senate? Compared to, say, the amount of stonewalling the Democrats did during Bush II's term?

I don't know - my knowledge of this kind of detail isn't good enough. Care to enlighten me?

--------------------
"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
...Wear that badge of honour as your country goes the way of Greece. Enjoy.

Hey, there's a thought! Any chance the EU would bail us out? [Cool]
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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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It's truly painful to see that the adults are no longer in charge in Washington DC. Even by low Washington standards, the adults knew when to stop playing games.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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the giant cheeseburger
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# 10942

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quote:
Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
...Wear that badge of honour as your country goes the way of Greece. Enjoy.

Hey, there's a thought! Any chance the EU would bail us out? [Cool]
Not the EU. Any bailout for the US will come with nice big portraits of Chairman Mao for all government buildings, especially the outside of the White House.

Going the way of Greece is very relevant. No bailout will come without deep-cutting austerity measures, which for the USA will require a State of Emergency and nationalisation of corporate assets.

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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?

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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754

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How about this as an analogy to the present credit rating raise standstill?

Picture a runaway train heading down a steep incline toward a canyon that has a rail bridge that has collapsed. Obama is the engineer on the train.
One side of the group wanting to join in the rescue effort is interested in repairing the bridge; the republicans. The other side wants to try a last ditch effort to stop the train; the democrats.

As the train rumbles on both sides are trying to assign blame or credit to the engineer for causing the situation.

Why must there be so little attention paid to the immanence of the wreck? The answer might be that neither side is really focused on the potential wreck but on who owns the railroad when it comes up for grabs in 2012.

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New Yorker
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# 9898

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I still have not seen anything that says if we don't raise the debt ceiling we can't make Social Security and other entitlement payments. We'd have to not pay something else of course. We could start by not paying elected officials salaries.

I did hear that if we simply repeal Obamacare all the problems would be solved. If that's correct go for it.

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
I did hear that if we simply repeal Obamacare all the problems would be solved. If that's correct go for it.

Given that very little money has been spent on Obama's health care reform measures yet, I'd say you're being fed a line. Whatever it may or may not do for the U.S. bottom line in the long run, "Obamacare" has almost nothing to do with the current debt ceiling kerfuffle.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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New Yorker
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# 9898

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I also see statistics that some 40% of the population does not pay income taxes. Their incomes are under the limit. Well, why shouldn't they pay something? Shared sacrifice and all that.
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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
I also see statistics that some 40% of the population does not pay income taxes. Their incomes are under the limit. Well, why shouldn't they pay something? Shared sacrifice and all that.

That 40% figure sounds about right. About 25% of the U.S. population is under 18 years old and another 12% is 65 years old or older. The under-eighteens don't vote, so getting them to "pay something" gets into that whole "taxation without representation" thing that was such a big deal in the early republic. I guess you could squeeze retirees, perhaps take back some of their Social Security or Medicare benefits. This is, of course, exactly in line with current Republican proposals.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Speaking of the party of No, how are the Republicans stacking up as far as judicial appointees through the Senate? Compared to, say, the amount of stonewalling the Democrats did during Bush II's term?

I don't know - my knowledge of this kind of detail isn't good enough. Care to enlighten me?
If I knew, I wouldn't have asked, I would have boldly declared (if it favored my side) or not brought it up at all (if it favored the other side).

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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tclune
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# 7959

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I guess you could squeeze retirees, perhaps take back some of their Social Security or Medicare benefits. This is, of course, exactly in line with current Republican proposals.

It's also a major part of Obama's Grand Bargain proposal. Of course, when Obama talks like a Republican, Republicans recoil in horror. Go figure...

--Tom Clune

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This space left blank intentionally.

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I guess you could squeeze retirees, perhaps take back some of their Social Security or Medicare benefits. This is, of course, exactly in line with current Republican proposals.

It's also a major part of Obama's Grand Bargain proposal. Of course, when Obama talks like a Republican, Republicans recoil in horror. Go figure...

--Tom Clune

Indeed. Paul Krugman's column today deals with this a bit.

quote:
Put it this way: If a Republican president had managed to extract the kind of concessions on Medicare and Social Security that Mr. Obama is offering, it would have been considered a conservative triumph. But when those concessions come attached to minor increases in revenue, and more important, when they come from a Democratic president, the proposals become unacceptable plans to tax the life out of the U.S. economy.


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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
I also see statistics that some 40% of the population does not pay income taxes. Their incomes are under the limit. Well, why shouldn't they pay something? Shared sacrifice and all that.

Over here anything other than essentials is subject to Value Added Tax. Excise duties are payable on booze, tobacco and the like. AFAIK you have duties and state sales taxes, which are levied at the same rate irrespective of income, so anybod with any cash will pay something. Not income tax, but as far as you purse, pocket or wallet is concerned, it feels like tax.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
I also see statistics that some 40% of the population does not pay income taxes. Their incomes are under the limit. Well, why shouldn't they pay something? Shared sacrifice and all that.

Over here anything other than essentials is subject to Value Added Tax. Excise duties are payable on booze, tobacco and the like. AFAIK you have duties and state sales taxes, which are levied at the same rate irrespective of income, so anybod with any cash will pay something. Not income tax, but as far as you purse, pocket or wallet is concerned, it feels like tax.
True, but most sales taxes in the U.S. are collected by the individual states and have no bearing on the federal budget. The U.S. also levies a payroll tax, which is used to fund Social Security, and this is paid by anyone drawing a paycheck. There's no exempted amount so if a U.S. worker makes any kind of salary, she's paying at least some kind of tax. Interestingly, money earned through investment or speculation (i.e. the sources of income most common to the very wealthy) is not subject to the payroll tax.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
We could start by not paying elected officials salaries.

New Yorker speaks the truth!

quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
I also see statistics that some 40% of the population does not pay income taxes. Their incomes are under the limit. Well, why shouldn't they pay something? Shared sacrifice and all that.

Because they have nothing?

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I guess you could squeeze retirees, perhaps take back some of their Social Security or Medicare benefits. This is, of course, exactly in line with current Republican proposals.

Yeah, all those seniors squandering their wealth on medical copayments, bus fare, absorbent panties, hearing aids, etc. How selfish! It's not as though they're spending money on really useful things, such as corporate jets, country club memberships, political contributions, etc.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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New Yorker
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# 9898

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
We could start by not paying elected officials salaries.

New Yorker speaks the truth!
Always, my friend. Glad we agree.

I read where Obama claimed at his presser today that 80% of Americans wanted a tax increase. I mean, I know the guy is a serial liar, but that is beyond belief.

Rasmussen says that only 35% of Americans support tax increases.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
I also see statistics that some 40% of the population does not pay income taxes. Their incomes are under the limit. Well, why shouldn't they pay something? Shared sacrifice and all that.

I thought about this whilst driving today, and figured out what bugs me about it. Part of the reason so few people pay income tax is that they no longer have living-wage jobs, because the super-rich have tossed them out on their ear and moved those jobs overseas. Guess who needs to take up the slack?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
[QUOTE]
I read where Obama claimed at his presser today that 80% of Americans wanted a tax increase. I mean, I know the guy is a serial liar, but that is beyond belief.

Rasmussen says that only 35% of Americans support tax increases.

As always, it depends on who's asking the question, who they're asking, and how the question is worded.

When you simply ask, as Rasmussen does, whether deficit reduction should include tax increases, the majority of Americans say no. Quelle surprise.

But when asked the more specific question of how deficit reduction should be accomplished, given a selection of options, the majority of voters in both parties favor increasing taxes on the wealthiest Americans, as proposed by Obama and the Democrats.


Americans favor tax increases

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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sabine
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# 3861

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
I also see statistics that some 40% of the population does not pay income taxes. Their incomes are under the limit. Well, why shouldn't they pay something? Shared sacrifice and all that.

You're looking at only one end of the spectrum. There are huge corporations (e.g., General Electric) which pay no taxes at all. And very wealthy (as in millionaires) who also have found many loopholes.

Of the two ends of the spectrum, which end actually has the money to pony up for taxes? Which end can get along at a basic survival rate without cuts to services?

sabine

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898

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quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
There are huge corporations (e.g., General Electric) which pay no taxes at all.

Oh yes, Obama's best friend!
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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Speaking of the party of No, how are the Republicans stacking up as far as judicial appointees through the Senate? Compared to, say, the amount of stonewalling the Democrats did during Bush II's term?

I don't know - my knowledge of this kind of detail isn't good enough. Care to enlighten me?
If I knew, I wouldn't have asked, I would have boldly declared (if it favored my side) or not brought it up at all (if it favored the other side).
Oh, okay. I thought you were asking rhetorically. My mistake.

--------------------
"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Timothy the Obscure

Mostly Friendly
# 292

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I guess you could squeeze retirees, perhaps take back some of their Social Security or Medicare benefits. This is, of course, exactly in line with current Republican proposals.

It's also a major part of Obama's Grand Bargain proposal. Of course, when Obama talks like a Republican, Republicans recoil in horror. Go figure...

--Tom Clune

Indeed. Paul Krugman's column today deals with this a bit.

quote:
Put it this way: If a Republican president had managed to extract the kind of concessions on Medicare and Social Security that Mr. Obama is offering, it would have been considered a conservative triumph. But when those concessions come attached to minor increases in revenue, and more important, when they come from a Democratic president, the proposals become unacceptable plans to tax the life out of the U.S. economy.

Or as David Brooks said on All Things Considered this afternoon (paraphrasing):
quote:
If someone had told me that a Democratic president would offer the cuts Obama has offered, I wouldn't have believed it--and if someone told me a Republican Congress would turn it down I would have been amazed.
The truth is the GOP has been taken over by crazy people who have no agenda except to destroy the social safety net and make the rich richer. In other words, to make the US into a Third World country, with an enormously wealthy elite, a vast impoverished underclass, and a small, insecure middle class that will be conservative out of fear.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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Timothy the Obscure

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# 292

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
I've often wondered why the Tea Party politicians have been so eager to be elected into government when they seem to feel that government is so bad.

Huh? To be elected into government is, in a democracy, the right thing for them to do. Politics 101 says that people with that view have the right to be represented. It's screwing with the rest of us? That's part of the price we pay for democracy. Or should they be taking up arms against the government?
No--but now they are the government. And a government is an enduring entity--as the current members of the government they are responsible for everything that has been done since 1787. And they are trying to act like they can just walk away.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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sonata3
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# 13653

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Much of our problem lies in the facts that our parties have become ideological - Democrats are liberals, Republicans are conservative. This ideological divide is not healthy. When I was growing up, John Lindsay and Nelson Rockefeller were very liberal Republicans, George Wallace a very conservative Democrat. But, however counterintuitive it might be, it allowed for bipartisan discussions, and, even occasionally, agreements.
Even more problematic now is the rather extraordinary divide within the Republican Party; I really think Boehner and Obama could have reached an agreement, but not with Cantor screwing up the machinery. The 2012 Republican primary will be quite a show to watch.

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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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If, on August 2 the US defaults on its debt and there is a massive spike in interest rates and then a lot of businesses and workers are going to take it on the chin.

I saw this in action last time. I was looking for work, got on an interview and drove three hours to get there. It went well, but at the end I was told that their customers said they had no money because the banks had called their loans and the customers had cancelled their orders. I went home with nothing.

And the nasty thing is it will be entire self-inflicted. The United States will have held a gun to its economy and pulled the trigger.

The US is so big that nobody is going to escape the pain.

I suffered through the last credit crunch. Two worldwide credit crunches in four years, each leaving massive unemployment in their wakes is just too much.

If the US defaults and I have to suffer through yet another round of unemployment and deprivation because nobody can get any money then I no longer believe in the capitalist system.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I saw this in action last time.

When was the last time? I thought the US hadn't defaulted before. [Confused]

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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The last credit crunch in 2008? Tight money, lots of misery?

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Timothy the Obscure

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Only this time it will be worse and last longer. Larry Summers was on All Things Considered on Friday, talking about how the original stimulus wasn't big enough and short term austerity is a big mistake that will likely lead to another recession as in 1937 (or worse), never mentioning that the policies he was critiquing are the same ones he helped craft.

There are people in their 40s and 50s who have lost their jobs and will never work again, except perhaps as a Wal-Mart greeter. There are people in their 20s, with college degrees, who will never have a decent job because by the time the economy recovers (if it does) they will be over 30 with no significant employment history. And while the primary responsibility for this lies with the Republican Party and their faith-based economics (never mind the evidence--we believe that small government, low taxes, and free markets inevitably lead to prosperity), some share will go to Obama and the Democrats who didn't have the guts to fight on the core issue, which is inequality.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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China will be fine, as will a whole lot of the rest of the world. Much of Europe, on the other hand, will probably be facing a big dose of reality.

Settling for less will make for an interesting cultural shift.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Ender's Shadow
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# 2272

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quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
And while the primary responsibility for this [the LAST bust] lies with the Republican Party and their faith-based economics (never mind the evidence--we believe that small government, low taxes, and free markets inevitably lead to prosperity), some share will go to Obama and the Democrats who didn't have the guts to fight on the core issue, which is inequality.

What I find interesting in that post is the assumption that there IS a solution to the problem - but that the Republicans stopped it being implemented. Why are you so sure there is a solution? The counter argument is that there was a build up of imbalances in the economy which the hyper-activity of the Fed (probably starting as early as 1992) prevented getting sorted earlier. When therefore there was such a big shift in the economy - the panic over the levels of debts - that a lot of banks were forced to draw in their horns and the Fed could no longer correct for, all this bad stuff happened. And it's perverse to blame anyone in particular - as much the Republicans of 2008, as opposed to the ignoramuses of the Tea Party - as Democrats, aliens from Zog or the tooth fairy.

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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alienfromzog

Ship's Alien
# 5327

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
And it's perverse to blame anyone in particular - as much the Republicans of 2008, as opposed to the ignoramuses of the Tea Party - as Democrats, aliens from Zog or the tooth fairy.

[Mad] [Mad] [Mad]
Oi!

It's not MY fault!

[Paranoid] [Eek!]

AFZ

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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)

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New Yorker
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# 9898

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Mark Steyn is always a good read.

I don't know Mark Tapscott but he has an interesting and brief column.

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alienfromzog

Ship's Alien
# 5327

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Mark Steyn is always a good read.

I don't know Mark Tapscott but he has an interesting and brief column.

A good read?

Well maybe. But somewhat lacking in some actual facts...

1. 25% of GDP taken up by the federal government not sustainable? um, bollocks.
2. Obamacare being too expensive? um, bollocks.
3. Cuts are the only answer? um, bollocks.

It was the Bush tax-cuts that exploded the deficit. And now it is America's poorest who the Republicans want to pay for it. There's a reason why the cost of foodstamps has exploded - it's because the number of people needing them has gone up!

The richest country in the world cannot provide healthcare for all its citizens? Give me a break.

It's a funny thing, for me, as a citizen of the UK, certainly in the short term, any kind of deal would suit me. Because the US defaulting would send shock-waves across much of the world, particularly Europe. But the inequity of it astounds and offends me; America will be a third-world country within a generation if the Tea Party get their way. There will be a small elite of superrich and large majority of people scraping by.

AFZ

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
But the inequity of it astounds and offends me; America will be a third-world country within a generation if the Tea Party get their way. There will be a small elite of superrich and large majority of people scraping by.

Don't look now, but...

--Tom Clune

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New Yorker
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
But the inequity of it astounds and offends me; America will be a third-world country within a generation if the Tea Party get their way. There will be a small elite of superrich and large majority of people scraping by.

Don't look now, but...

--Tom Clune

Yep. We're there already.
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Timothy the Obscure

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
And while the primary responsibility for this [the LAST bust] lies with the Republican Party and their faith-based economics (never mind the evidence--we believe that small government, low taxes, and free markets inevitably lead to prosperity), some share will go to Obama and the Democrats who didn't have the guts to fight on the core issue, which is inequality.

What I find interesting in that post is the assumption that there IS a solution to the problem - but that the Republicans stopped it being implemented. Why are you so sure there is a solution? The counter argument is that there was a build up of imbalances in the economy which the hyper-activity of the Fed (probably starting as early as 1992) prevented getting sorted earlier. When therefore there was such a big shift in the economy - the panic over the levels of debts - that a lot of banks were forced to draw in their horns and the Fed could no longer correct for, all this bad stuff happened. And it's perverse to blame anyone in particular - as much the Republicans of 2008, as opposed to the ignoramuses of the Tea Party - as Democrats, aliens from Zog or the tooth fairy.
It goes back much farther--to 1980 or a bit earlier, when US corporations, actively supported by policymakers (of both parties, admittedly) began to pump up profits by holding down wages through moving jobs overseas, breaking unions, etc. (and along the way, creating a new class of unimaginably wealthy CEOs). The consumer economy that was the source of the profits was kept going with easy credit, supported by ever-increasing real estate values--people paying for stuff with the equity in their homes, since wages have been essentially flat for 30 years. Add on a vast superstructure of phantom wealth built on subprime mortage bonds, credit default swaps, etc., and the active cultivation of unsustainable consumer debt to keep it going, and you have a formula for collapse. The problem is that there's insufficient demand to get a strong recovery going, because consumers are broke and scared. The solution is more government spending in the short run to pump up demand and get people working again, and reversing the policies that have handed over all the increased productivity of the past three decades to the top 1%. Once the middle class has got their personal balance sheets in order, it becomes possible for the government to attend to its deficit problem--macroeconomics 101.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
<snip>The problem is that there's insufficient demand to get a strong recovery going, because consumers are broke and scared. The solution is more government spending in the short run to pump up demand and get people working again, and reversing the policies that have handed over all the increased productivity of the past three decades to the top 1%. Once the middle class has got their personal balance sheets in order, it becomes possible for the government to attend to its deficit problem--macroeconomics 101.

Hmm - I'd describe that as Keynesian Macroeconomics 101, making certain assumptions about the nature of what the economic system will stand for - particularly the assumption that it can stand more government debt. Let's try and agree something - at some point a government cannot borrow any more, because the interest cost of that additional borrowing will cost more than the taxes on that the rise in economic growth that the extra borrowing achieves will bring in. Once you get to that point you must default - or suffer a horrendous amount of austerity, as Greece is currently proving. Now the question is whether the US would hit this problem if it attempted to go down that route, and that is a genuinely open question, but one that we have to consider.

Your second proposal, by contrast, strikes me as fatuous. Sadly you can't just wave a magic wand and 'revers[e] the policies that have handed over all the increased productivity of the past three decades to the top 1%' - or at least I can think of nothing that will get close to doing so. This shift has two elements - the effect of globalisation - that American workers are competing against those in foreign lands, about which almost nothing can be done, and the breakdown of union monopolies which have made some American worker uncompetitive compared with others. This is hard to prevent - short of preventing new companies entering product areas where there are unionised jobs, a concept that is... interesting.

The debate about preventing the benefits going to the richest is more complex; if the market is working correctly, the profits from the shift to cheaper suppliers will be competed away and reflected in cheaper prices, and that, I suspect, is what has happened a lot. It would be an interesting exercise to identify what proportion has been grabbed by the rich.

However the core problem with CEO pay is that there is an arms race; no board of directors is willing to pay below or even at the market rate - they want to present their company as something special, so executive pay does keep rising. We do need to reverse this somehow - on that we can agree.

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
It would be an interesting exercise to identify what proportion has been grabbed by the rich.

Indeed it is.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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Nonsense Ender. The United States is in a vastly different position than Greece. Both the United States and the United Kingdom borrow in their own currency and have their own central banks. They cannot be forced to default on their debts but they can choose to do so*.

A true sovereign borrower can always print more money to cover its debts. The effect may be inflation, but there is no need, absolutely no need for a default.

Greece on the other hand is not a true sovereign borrowers, neither is France or Germany for that matter. European government debts are denominated in Euros and each individual state cannot ask the central bank to print more money to cover their debts.

Apples and oranges.

*The Tea Party idiots want the US to do just that.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Nonsense Ender. The United States is in a vastly different position than Greece. Both the United States and the United Kingdom borrow in their own currency and have their own central banks. They cannot be forced to default on their debts but they can choose to do so*.

A true sovereign borrower can always print more money to cover its debts. The effect may be inflation, but there is no need, absolutely no need for a default.

Greece on the other hand is not a true sovereign borrowers, neither is France or Germany for that matter. European government debts are denominated in Euros and each individual state cannot ask the central bank to print more money to cover their debts.

Apples and oranges.

*The Tea Party idiots want the US to do just that.

Not quite. The reality of the 'inflation' you so blithely disdain is that US's ability to buy things in the world would be SEVERELY undermined. At the moment the US is running a severe balance of payment deficit which it is already covering by borrowing. If that source of support disappeared, things would rapidly get very 'interesting' as oil imports would become VERY expensive; $10 a gallon anyone? It's essentially the same risk of severe austerity - though from a different route.

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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Inflationphobia is the economic mental illness of our time.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Inflationphobia is the economic mental illness of our time.

I really ought to call you to Hell for the sheer ignorance and lack of empathy for the main victims of inflation - the poor - that that comment demonstrates. Sadly as I won't be on line much over the next few days, I wouldn't be able to make a decent debate of it. However, let me assure you that the long term effect of high levels of inflation (>> 15% or so) are serious; just consider a) the person on a fixed pension - rapidly reduced to poverty b) Even someone whose pension is inflation linked will suffer a loss the equivalent of half the prevailing rate unless updating for inflation is made more frequent than annually.

But that's just the most obvious effect. Lots of other perversities rapidly start to appear in the economy.... It's really not healthy - and would make the US economy even more messed up than it is now.

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
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Meanwhile, gold continues record climb.
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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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And we care why? It can't buy anything by itself. The same could be said of copper, iron or chocolate.

Pork belly futures, however, are no longer traded.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
... the sheer ignorance and lack of empathy for the main victims of inflation - the poor - that that comment demonstrates.

It is instructive to work out who the main beneficiaries of inflation are.

Bearing in mind that in normal inflation (i.e. not the kind of hyperinflation they had in Germany in the early 1920s or Zimbabwe recently, which disrupts normal economic activity) production continues more or less at the same level - in fact it usually slowly rises - so there is the same amount of stuff to buy, so if the poor are getting poorer and having to make do with less stuff, someone else will be getting hold of more stuff. Who are they?

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
And we care why? It can't buy anything by itself...

It's simply an indicator of nervousness in the economy and stock markets; anticipation of inflation and devaluation, but you knew that, right?
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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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But since it's not actually money, I don't care.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
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Let me know how nutricious that money is, OK?

You need to learn how to shelter your assets.

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--Formerly: Gort--

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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What assets? The recession came down on my head and since then it has been a crime to be young, educated and to want a career. Something in which I could afford my own apartment and actually have a social life.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
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Ah, then you're more interested in a "career" than making money. That's a different ballgame. Nevermind.
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