Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: Staring at the debt ceiling
|
New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
|
Posted
The interesting and scary thing to me is that Moody's says that none of the plans being talked about address the problem or protect our AAA rating.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy the Obscure
 Mostly Friendly
# 292
|
Posted
David Stockman, one of the architects of the policies that got us here, said on NPR Saturday: quote: We're not a AAA country. When we spend 24 percent of GDP and tax 14 and have gap 10 percent that we're borrowing, and this is the third year in a row, then there's no reason why the rating agency should extend our AAA.
Notably, he also says: quote: We are raising 14 percent of GDP in taxes, the lowest since 1948. The Republican position that taxes aren't part of this solution, raising taxes is just nonsensical and can't be defended.
-------------------- When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. - C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
moron
Shipmate
# 206
|
Posted
Hearing McConnell this morning my take is the Tea Party is going to 'win'. Fair assessment?
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
That's the word on the street, 205.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
moron
Shipmate
# 206
|
Posted
So would Hillary have allowed herself to be positioned the way Obama has?
And I saw a poll today suggesting independents have largely lost their love for him: IMNSHO it doesn't bode well for next year's election.
All you godless liberals better start figuring out which country to move to.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
That leaves me out. I'm a Christian liberal.
If independent voters are mad at him for caving to the GOP, does that mean they'll vote for the GOP? The logic of this escapes me.
What I and many other liberals would like to see is a successful takeover bid during the Dem primaries. We've tried the honorary Republican; we don't like him. Time to move on.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
moron
Shipmate
# 206
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: If independent voters are mad at him for caving to the GOP, does that mean they'll vote for the GOP? The logic of this escapes me.
You think that's why they're unhappy with him?
I'd say it's his intransigence RE deficit spending but durned if I know.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy the Obscure
 Mostly Friendly
# 292
|
Posted
The polls seem to show that while people aren't happy with Obama's handling of the situation, Congress comes out worse, and the GOP worse than the Dems (66% wanted the debt deal to include tax increases). I think the real casualty is likely to be the Tea Party, who are increasingly being seen as the hysterical extremists they are. I think there's a good possibility that a Tea Party endorsement may be poison in the general election in many places, even if it's necessary to win the GOP primary.
-------------------- When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. - C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Breaking news:
quote: Obama, Congress reach a debt deal
By DAVID ESPO - AP Special Correspondent | AP – 16 mins ago
WASHINGTON (AP) — Racing the clock to avoid a government default, President Barack Obama and Republican congressional leaders reached historic agreement Sunday night on a compromise to permit vital U.S. borrowing by the Treasury in exchange for more than $2 trillion in long-term spending cuts.
Officials said Speaker John Boehner telephoned Obama at mid-evening to say the agreement had been struck.
No votes were expected in either house of Congress until Monday at the earliest, to give rank and file lawmakers to review the package
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
|
Posted
Look for Obama to loose next year. The Tea Part types wsill reek revenge on GOP supporters of this compromise . Maybe common senmse will break out ? I can hope can't I ?
-------------------- "He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Well, he said a long time ago that he might be a one-term president, and that he was ok with that. I suspect his family would be very ok with that.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by PaulBC: Look for Obama to loose next year. The Tea Part types wsill reek revenge on GOP supporters of this compromise . Maybe common senmse will break out ? I can hope can't I ?
If the tea partiers seek revenge on moderate GOPers, that would divide the party, insuring an Obama win.
Or so we hope and pray...
-------------------- "Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
|
Posted
One of my church friends today suggested that at least a few voters would turn on their Tea Party legislators -- who'll comfortably retire from public service with lots of perks and leverage their one-term experience into sweet private-sector jobs. Ironic.
-------------------- Simul iustus et peccator http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by 205: quote: Originally posted by mousethief: If independent voters are mad at him for caving to the GOP, does that mean they'll vote for the GOP? The logic of this escapes me.
You think that's why they're unhappy with him?
I'd say it's his intransigence RE deficit spending but durned if I know.
Clearly you don't. See above comments. 66% of people wanted tax increases.
We've been deficit spending since at least 1941. All of a sudden it becomes a big issue. Ask yourself why? Answer yourself: because Grover Norquist wanted to drown the government in a bathtub. By driving the deficit into the stratosphere, the GOP can then turn around and use it as an excuse to dismantle social services -- by holding the nation's and the world's economies hostage until they get what they want.
And lo and behold, Obama caves, and they're STILL NOT FUCKING HAPPY WITH HIM even though he's given them everything they wanted, and got back NOTHING in return except for the right to use the word 'compromise' when talking about his reaming.
Wake up, America. The GOP has been fucking you up the ass since 1980.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
|
Posted
Next year is an eternity for the average American voter who won't remember any of this once football/fall television season starts. Most of the campaigning will be negative and will focus on "values" since neither party can demonstrate they've done anything to address the economy.
-------------------- Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alfred E. Neuman
 What? Me worry?
# 6855
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: ...Wake up, America. The GOP has been fucking you up the ass since 1980.
...and they don't even have the common courtesy to give me a reach-around.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy the Obscure
 Mostly Friendly
# 292
|
Posted
If you weren't a commie you'd like it.
-------------------- When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. - C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure: If you weren't a commie you'd like it.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niteowl
 Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
|
Posted
Michele Bachmann and other Tea Party members of Congress are already stating they are going to vote AGAINST the compromise. The Tea Party seems determined to torpedo the economy and destroy the country. Words fail me on how these people can be SO FUCKING STUPID! (And I generally don't swear, but this occasion calls for it.)
ETA: By the time we get to vote these clowns out of office it will be too late for the country. [ 01. August 2011, 08:36: Message edited by: Niteowl2 ]
-------------------- "love all, trust few, do wrong to no one" Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
 Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
From today's Guardian -
quote: Politics involves negotiation. In the US system, with all its checks and balances, a refusal to negotiate amounts to an inability to participate. It means you can pretty much stop anything; it also means you can get almost nothing done. The Republican party's inability to bring its raucous base into line has cost it, and the country, dear. The point of brinkmanship is to take you to the edge, not over it.
Spot on.
I watch with increasing incredulity - do Republicans care at all about Americans or their Country?
It appears not ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
moron
Shipmate
# 206
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by art dunce: Most of the campaigning will be negative and will focus on "values" since neither party can demonstrate they've done anything to address the economy.
If I'm comprehending any of this (to save mt some time: very unlikely ) I thought the 'compromise' which forces cuts if none can be agreed on is another example of both sides (I'm not sure how to classify the Tea Party) being unwilling to really address unsustainable spending. I predict no cuts will be reached, entitlements will be therefore 'automatically'* scaled back and both parties will say it was the evil people on the other side who are taking away your 'right to benefits'.
Well, at least it doesn't look like we're going to be Greece, quite yet.
*(Dear Constituents: the 'rules' made us do it. )
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Niteowl2: Michele Bachmann and other Tea Party members of Congress are already stating they are going to vote AGAINST the compromise. The Tea Party seems determined to torpedo the economy and destroy the country. Words fail me on how these people can be SO FUCKING STUPID! (And I generally don't swear, but this occasion calls for it.)
Only in sufficient numbers to ensure that it still passes, most likely. Bachmann will use her "principled opposition" to seek a few markers in aid of her ambitions, then reluctantly acquiesce. If she's got any sense, that is. Which is not a given.
I guess of course. But if they do torpedo, then the Pres can take last minute Executive Action as a last resort "at the 11th hour and 59th minute" given their obduracy even in the face of GOP leadership. That way he probably escapes any impeachment chatter and looks strong in advance of 2012. It's a "save the nation" move. You can hardly see Boehner supporting any hypothetical impeachment moves under those circs, given that the basis of the deal is "we can't afford to default".
Come to think of it, that scenario doesn't look too bad for anybody but the Tea Party. All it would take under those circs would be for Bill O'Reilly to have an Ed Murrow speech in him and the "shooting star would fall from the sky". I think that might even be good for America. Don't like the thought of it being good for Bill O'Reilly.
Wait for an alternative view from New Yorker or romanlion.
-------------------- Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
moron
Shipmate
# 206
|
Posted
They ought to hire ME to write this stuff. quote: Originally posted by Boogie: From today's Guardian -
Politics involves negotiation. In the US system, with all its checks and balances, a (seeming, but really only a bluff) refusal to negotiate gives the impression of an inability to participate. But it REALLY means you can get something, arguably huge, done.
The Republican party's shrewd subsuming of the 'Tea Party' allows them (being the True Patriots they are, and ONLY concerned about the long term welfare of the USA's finances, knowing that is the foundation of more prosperity for all) will benefit it, and the country, dearly. The point of brinksmanship is, as they have savvily demonstrated, to take recalcitrant political opponents to some edge in order to achieve a Righteous End.
But I'll do that one for free.
Don't mention it.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niteowl
 Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Barnabas62: I guess of course. But if they do torpedo, then the Pres can take last minute Executive Action as a last resort "at the 11th hour and 59th minute" given their obduracy even in the face of GOP leadership. That way he probably escapes any impeachment chatter and looks strong in advance of 2012. It's a "save the nation" move. You can hardly see Boehner supporting any hypothetical impeachment moves under those circs, given that the basis of the deal is "we can't afford to default".
Come to think of it, that scenario doesn't look too bad for anybody but the Tea Party. All it would take under those circs would be for Bill O'Reilly to have an Ed Murrow speech in him and the "shooting star would fall from the sky". I think that might even be good for America. Don't like the thought of it being good for Bill O'Reilly.
Wait for an alternative view from New Yorker or romanlion.
Sad thing is, I don't think Obama has it in him to show that kind of leadership. And I do think the Tea Party has it in them to let this country go over the cliff as their ideology has them blinded as to the consequences.
-------------------- "love all, trust few, do wrong to no one" Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
Just one very brief comment on the whole business. I can't figure out whether what we've been seeing over the past few weeks is insanity or play-acting. But I do think a very serious collapse is just around the corner, simply because for 300 years now the whole western world has based its economy on debt. And there comes a point - long past - where basing an economy on debt means basing it on fictional money. The $2.4tn is fictional. That money doesn't exist, anywhere. Nor do the $14.3tn that came before it. It is all a fiction, hitherto a useful one, henceforth a very, very dangerous one.
This is one Emperor who's been walking around naked for a very long time. But since 2008, he's been feeling a very chilly draught around his cods.
-------------------- "What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by 205: If I'm comprehending any of this... I thought the 'compromise' which forces cuts if none can be agreed on is another example of both sides (I'm not sure how to classify the Tea Party) being unwilling to really address unsustainable spending. I predict no cuts will be reached, entitlements will be therefore 'automatically'* scaled back and both parties will say it was the evil people on the other side who are taking away your 'right to benefits'.
ISTM that all this is an elaborate way around the Tea Party crackpots. The overwhelming majority of the American public want "revenue enhancements" to be part of the way that we address the debt problem. When the special committee comes out with its proposal, which will include the same close-the-loopholes, lower-the-marginal-rates agreement that the Tea Partiers torpedoed earlier, it will face an up-or-down vote in both houses and pass.
--Tom Clune
-------------------- This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Josephine
 Orthodox Belle
# 3899
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by tclune: ISTM that all this is an elaborate way around the Tea Party crackpots. The overwhelming majority of the American public want "revenue enhancements" to be part of the way that we address the debt problem. When the special committee comes out with its proposal, which will include the same close-the-loopholes, lower-the-marginal-rates agreement that the Tea Partiers torpedoed earlier, it will face an up-or-down vote in both houses and pass.
I hope you're right -- but I don't believe it. And the reason that I don't believe it is that the Republican "hawks" pitched a fit about the defense cuts in the trigger. They are expecting the trigger to be pulled.
My prediction is that the committee's proposal will pass the house (barely), but will be filibustered in the Senate and fail there 59 to 41.
The filibuster has become poison. We're dying from it.
-------------------- I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: I suspect his family would be very ok with that.
What? Michelle loves living off the taxpayer. Trips to Spain, Africa, etc. She'll do everything she can to keep the gravy train running.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Adeodatus: But I do think a very serious collapse is just around the corner, simply because for 300 years now the whole western world has based its economy on debt. And there comes a point - long past - where basing an economy on debt means basing it on fictional money. The $2.4tn is fictional. That money doesn't exist, anywhere. Nor do the $14.3tn that came before it. It is all a fiction, hitherto a useful one, henceforth a very, very dangerous one.
Given that all money is essentially fictional (i.e. a mental constuct society has collectively created to denominate value), I'm not sure what point you're making.
-------------------- Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Josephine
 Orthodox Belle
# 3899
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by New Yorker: quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: I suspect his family would be very ok with that.
What? Michelle loves living off the taxpayer. Trips to Spain, Africa, etc. She'll do everything she can to keep the gravy train running.
New Yorker, your routine is no longer funny. You might need to find a new gag writer.
-------------------- I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Crœsos: quote: Originally posted by Adeodatus: But I do think a very serious collapse is just around the corner, simply because for 300 years now the whole western world has based its economy on debt. And there comes a point - long past - where basing an economy on debt means basing it on fictional money. The $2.4tn is fictional. That money doesn't exist, anywhere. Nor do the $14.3tn that came before it. It is all a fiction, hitherto a useful one, henceforth a very, very dangerous one.
Given that all money is essentially fictional (i.e. a mental constuct society has collectively created to denominate value), I'm not sure what point you're making.
Back in the days when anybody still bothered with defining things like M1 money and M3 money, it was generally held that, while all money is to a degree unreal, some kinds were more real than others. So back then, "this piece of paper I'm giving you in exchange for the work you did for me, and which you can use to buy food for your family" would be considered more real than the billions of imaginary dollars that hedge fund managers bet on what is essentially a throw of the dice.
The USA can't really buy anything with its extra $2.4tn, except time. And time is running out. One day, a rising political power will turn round and say, "You know all that fictional money we lent you a few years ago? We'd like it back...". That's the day you won't be able to get out of it by extending the fiction any more.
-------------------- "What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote: The USA can't really buy anything with its extra $2.4tn, except time. And time is running out. One day, a rising political power will turn round and say, "You know all that fictional money we lent you a few years ago? We'd like it back...". That's the day you won't be able to get out of it by extending the fiction any more.
Treasury bonds mature on a set day, dearie.
Zach
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
New Yorker, at long last, do facts mean absolutely nothing to you?
First, to momentarily sink to the level of your comment, where do you get the factually wrong idea that the extent of Michelle Obama's travels as a 1st lady is all that different from previous 1st ladies? Or does the commandment "Thou shalt not bear false witness..." mean nothing to you?
Now there are also those who really still can't get past the idea of a African-American 1st Lady. This of course would not be true of you, though hailing from the deep south as you do (despite your screen name)
-------------------- God = love. Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
I hope the last comment is not considered a personal atteck. I was not making any charges, but just notuing that people should examine themselves as to where they are coming from on an issue.
Note: I have a a very nice exchange of PMs with New Yorker on a nonm-political topic, and he said things that really touched me.
-------------------- God = love. Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
|
Posted
Honestly, I don't think the lunatic fringes of the House GOP realize how much they've won by: Obama has caved on virtually everything.
-------------------- "We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass." Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Imaginary Friend: Honestly, I don't think the lunatic fringes of the House GOP realize how much they've won by: Obama has caved on virtually everything.
That's really the thing that chills the blood. Obama has been able to get virtually no democratic legislation through, and what he has gotten through has been so co-opted that it's unrecognizable, yet he's still being decried as a socialist by far right fanatics. Just what is this about anyway?
Zach
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Adeodatus: The USA can't really buy anything with its extra $2.4tn, except time. And time is running out. One day, a rising political power will turn round and say, "You know all that fictional money we lent you a few years ago? We'd like it back...". That's the day you won't be able to get out of it by extending the fiction any more.
First off, U.S. bonds are issued with a fixed term. Anyone, private citizen or foreign government, can't just demand a refund from the federal government. They've agreed to the terms and, while bonds are negotiable and can be traded to other parties, you can't just demand your money back from the feds. You've already agreed to those terms. The worst you could do is simply refuse to buy any more bonds from the U.S. government.
So, how close are we to that situation? Not counting the panic a default by the U.S. government on its existing debt would cause, not very close at all. You'll note that the inflation-adjusted yield on five and seven year U.S. bonds is actually negative, even in the shadow of a possible default. In other words, once inflation is factored in people are essentially paying the U.S. government to take their money. Even without taking inflation into account the price the U.S. government has to pay for credit is ridiculously low. So while there may very well be a point at which the U.S. government can't borrow any more, we're nowhere near that point right now (assuming the debt ceiling is raised and there is no default).
-------------------- Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
|
Posted
It's about this.
Esp. note the part about "a population capable of critical thinking."
-------------------- "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
Does anyone have any ideas that are both legal and practical that those of us who reside in this childish and corporately-owned polical entity can do to rescue ourselves. By us I mean the many who being preyed upon by the few.
I see no hope for this. But God makes a way out of no way.
But (S)he also gives us brains and choice.)
for all the victims of the socioeconomic predatory few. Out of the depths we cry to you, O Lord! Lord, hear our voice!
-------------------- God = love. Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote: Does anyone have any ideas that are both legal and practical that those of us who reside in this childish and corporately-owned polical entity can do to rescue ourselves. By us I mean the many who being preyed upon by the few.
I see no hope for this. But God makes a way out of no way.
But (S)he also gives us brains and choice.)
It's the way of things. The only thing left is to "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Zach [ 01. August 2011, 14:29: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hawk
 Semi-social raptor
# 14289
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by malik3000: Does anyone have any ideas that are both legal and practical that those of us who reside in this childish and corporately-owned polical entity can do to rescue ourselves. By us I mean the many who being preyed upon by the few.
I see no hope for this. But God makes a way out of no way.
Surely emigration is the only rational choice for an American. Pick a country at random and apply. Anywhere's got to be better.
-------------------- “We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Crœsos: Even without taking inflation into account the price the U.S. government has to pay for credit is ridiculously low. So while there may very well be a point at which the U.S. government can't borrow any more, we're nowhere near that point right now (assuming the debt ceiling is raised and there is no default).
But, as discussed already on this thread, your AAA rating is under serious threat, even if a deal gets done. And once your rating starts to slip, things get very slippery indeed.
(My point being that the first step on the road to "give us our money back" is "we're going to make it very expensive for you to borrow any more". Ask Greece, Portugal, Ireland and Iceland.) [ 01. August 2011, 14:41: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]
-------------------- "What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
moron
Shipmate
# 206
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by irish_lord99: It's about this.
Esp. note the part about "a population capable of critical thinking."
Do you suppose George (RIP) really believed any of that?
Personally, I prefer the 'blissful ignorance' approach: IME life is much more enjoyable that way.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Imaginary Friend: Honestly, I don't think the lunatic fringes of the House GOP realize how much they've won by: Obama has caved on virtually everything.
Is it really that bad? $1T in cuts over 10 years for a limit rise of $2.4T that gets all these assholes through the election next year? One measley trillion over a period of time when the budget is baselined to grow to something like $5.5T in 2022?
Our two-party system is nothing more than a political good cop-bad cop routine. When these episodes galvinize voters further into their respective corners is when we are all really getting fucked.
-------------------- "You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Adeodatus: But, as discussed already on this thread, your AAA rating is under serious threat, even if a deal gets done. And once your rating starts to slip, things get very slippery indeed.
As was demonstrated during the 2008 financial meltdown, credit rating agencies seem to be ridiculously harsh on government bonds and ridiculously forgiving on corporate-issued debt. I'm not sure there's any action the U.S. government could take that would appease agencies that are pre-disposed to cut its rating, and it's not apparent that such a cut would necessarily scare off lenders.
quote: Originally posted by Adeodatus: (My point being that the first step on the road to "give us our money back" is "we're going to make it very expensive for you to borrow any more". Ask Greece, Portugal, Ireland and Iceland.)
Okay, let's ask Iceland. What's that you say, Iceland?
quote: Iceland is considering selling foreign-currency debt with longer maturities after last month’s $1 billion sale of five-year dollar bonds was twice oversubscribed, Finance Minister Steingrimur J. Sigfusson said.
“We’re very satisfied with how things have developed, how successful our auction was,” Sigfusson said in a phone interview in Reykjavik yesterday. “Issuing bonds with a longer maturity is an option that we’re looking closely at.”
The cost of insuring against an Icelandic default is now lower than guarding against a credit event in Italy, the third-largest member in the euro area.
You say you can borrow money at much lower rates than Greece, Portugal, Ireland, or other nations that foolishly pursued contractionary deficit reduction policies during an economic downturn? And that investors are clamoring to buy more bonds than you issue? Good to know. Thanks, Iceland!
-------------------- Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by 205: quote: Originally posted by irish_lord99: It's about this.
Esp. note the part about "a population capable of critical thinking."
Do you suppose George (RIP) really believed any of that?
Personally, I prefer the 'blissful ignorance' approach: IME life is much more enjoyable that way.
I'm pretty sure he did (he frequently pontificated on it in serious settings as well as on stage), and I'm not so sure he was wrong.
'course, you make a valid point yourself.
-------------------- "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Crœsos: Thanks, Iceland!
... After three years as a virtual economic pariah. Could the USA afford 3 years of that, if it came to it?
-------------------- "What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Adeodatus: quote: Originally posted by Crœsos: Thanks, Iceland!
... After three years as a virtual economic pariah. Could the USA afford 3 years of that, if it came to it?
Well, when you compare Iceland's performance (as you suggested) with the performance of deficit-cutting, austerity-oriented nations in the same situation (Greece, Ireland, Portugal) I'm not seeing the advantage of fiscal austerity of the type you advocate. If anything, the examples you cite seem to argue against it. For a lot of reasons the U.S. isn't in the exactly the same situation as either Iceland or Greece, but if those are the only two templates available it seem like the former is a lot more successful than the latter.
-------------------- Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Adeodatus: And there comes a point - long past - where basing an economy on debt means basing it on fictional money. The $2.4tn is fictional. That money doesn't exist, anywhere. Nor do the $14.3tn that came before it. It is all a fiction, hitherto a useful one, henceforth a very, very dangerous one.
All money is fictional. That's what money is. If it was really worth what you get for it it wouldn't be money it would be goods of some sort.
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by malik3000: New Yorker, at long last, do facts mean absolutely nothing to you?
First, to momentarily sink to the level of your comment, where do you get the factually wrong idea that the extent of Michelle Obama's travels as a 1st lady is all that different from previous 1st ladies? Or does the commandment "Thou shalt not bear false witness..." mean nothing to you?
Now there are also those who really still can't get past the idea of a African-American 1st Lady. This of course would not be true of you, though hailing from the deep south as you do (despite your screen name)
Malik -
The fact that Michelle is black has no bearing on my thoughts. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that she has been traveling and living large on the taxpayers' dime(s). If I am wrong, then I was wrong. And thank you for your kind words.
As for the budget deal, it must have been a compromise since nobody is happy. I still don't see how we can avoid making deep, deep cuts in spending and do so soon. Maybe in 2013 when the GOP controls both Houses of Congress and the White House, we'll make progress! But the Republicans always seem to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|