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We're not a AAA country. When we spend 24 percent of GDP and tax 14 and have gap 10 percent that we're borrowing, and this is the third year in a row, then there's no reason why the rating agency should extend our AAA.

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We are raising 14 percent of GDP in taxes, the lowest since 1948. The Republican position that taxes aren't part of this solution, raising taxes is just nonsensical and can't be defended.

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Originally posted by mousethief:
If independent voters are mad at him for caving to the GOP, does that mean they'll vote for the GOP? The logic of this escapes me.

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Obama, Congress reach a debt deal

By DAVID ESPO - AP Special Correspondent | AP – 16 mins ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — Racing the clock to avoid a government default, President Barack Obama and Republican congressional leaders reached historic agreement Sunday night on a compromise to permit vital U.S. borrowing by the Treasury in exchange for more than $2 trillion in long-term spending cuts.

Officials said Speaker John Boehner telephoned Obama at mid-evening to say the agreement had been struck.

No votes were expected in either house of Congress until Monday at the earliest, to give rank and file lawmakers to review the package

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Originally posted by PaulBC:
Look for Obama to loose next year. The Tea Part types wsill reek revenge on GOP supporters of this compromise . Maybe common senmse will break out ? I can hope can't I ?

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Originally posted by 205:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
If independent voters are mad at him for caving to the GOP, does that mean they'll vote for the GOP? The logic of this escapes me.

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You think that's why they're unhappy with him?

I'd say it's his intransigence RE deficit spending but durned if I know.

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Originally posted by mousethief:
...Wake up, America. The GOP has been fucking you up the ass since 1980.

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Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
If you weren't a commie you'd like it.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Politics involves negotiation. In the US system, with all its checks and balances, a refusal to negotiate amounts to an inability to participate. It means you can pretty much stop anything; it also means you can get almost nothing done. The Republican party's inability to bring its raucous base into line has cost it, and the country, dear. The point of brinkmanship is to take you to the edge, not over it.

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Spot on.

I watch with increasing incredulity - do Republicans care at all about Americans or their Country?

It appears not

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Originally posted by art dunce:
Most of the campaigning will be negative and will focus on "values" since neither party can demonstrate they've done anything to address the economy.

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If I'm comprehending any of this (to save mt some time: very unlikely ) I thought the 'compromise' which forces cuts if none can be agreed on is another example of both sides (I'm not sure how to classify the Tea Party) being unwilling to really address unsustainable spending. I predict no cuts will be reached, entitlements will be therefore 'automatically'* scaled back and both parties will say it was the evil people on the other side who are taking away your 'right to benefits'.

Well, at least it doesn't look like we're going to be Greece, quite yet.


*(Dear Constituents: the 'rules' made us do it. )

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Michele Bachmann and other Tea Party members of Congress are already stating they are going to vote AGAINST the compromise. The Tea Party seems determined to torpedo the economy and destroy the country. Words fail me on how these people can be SO FUCKING STUPID! (And I generally don't swear, but this occasion calls for it.)

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Originally posted by Boogie:
From today's Guardian -

Politics involves negotiation. In the US system, with all its checks and balances, a (seeming, but really only a bluff) refusal to negotiate gives the impression of an inability to participate. But it REALLY means you can get something, arguably huge, done.

The Republican party's shrewd subsuming of the 'Tea Party' allows them (being the True Patriots they are, and ONLY concerned about the long term welfare of the USA's finances, knowing that is the foundation of more prosperity for all) will benefit it, and the country, dearly. The point of brinksmanship is, as they have savvily demonstrated, to take recalcitrant political opponents to some edge in order to achieve a Righteous End.

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But I'll do that one for free.

Don't mention it.

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:

I guess of course. But if they do torpedo, then the Pres can take last minute Executive Action as a last resort "at the 11th hour and 59th minute" given their obduracy even in the face of GOP leadership. That way he probably escapes any impeachment chatter and looks strong in advance of 2012. It's a "save the nation" move. You can hardly see Boehner supporting any hypothetical impeachment moves under those circs, given that the basis of the deal is "we can't afford to default".

Come to think of it, that scenario doesn't look too bad for anybody but the Tea Party. All it would take under those circs would be for Bill O'Reilly to have an Ed Murrow speech in him and the "shooting star would fall from the sky". I think that might even be good for America. Don't like the thought of it being good for Bill O'Reilly.

Wait for an alternative view from New Yorker or romanlion.

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Originally posted by 205:
If I'm comprehending any of this... I thought the 'compromise' which forces cuts if none can be agreed on is another example of both sides (I'm not sure how to classify the Tea Party) being unwilling to really address unsustainable spending. I predict no cuts will be reached, entitlements will be therefore 'automatically'* scaled back and both parties will say it was the evil people on the other side who are taking away your 'right to benefits'.

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Originally posted by tclune:
ISTM that all this is an elaborate way around the Tea Party crackpots. The overwhelming majority of the American public want "revenue enhancements" to be part of the way that we address the debt problem. When the special committee comes out with its proposal, which will include the same close-the-loopholes, lower-the-marginal-rates agreement that the Tea Partiers torpedoed earlier, it will face an up-or-down vote in both houses and pass.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
I suspect his family would be very ok with that.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
But I do think a very serious collapse is just around the corner, simply because for 300 years now the whole western world has based its economy on debt. And there comes a point - long past - where basing an economy on debt means basing it on fictional money. The $2.4tn is fictional. That money doesn't exist, anywhere. Nor do the $14.3tn that came before it. It is all a fiction, hitherto a useful one, henceforth a very, very dangerous one.

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Originally posted by New Yorker:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
I suspect his family would be very ok with that.

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What? Michelle loves living off the taxpayer. Trips to Spain, Africa, etc. She'll do everything she can to keep the gravy train running.

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
But I do think a very serious collapse is just around the corner, simply because for 300 years now the whole western world has based its economy on debt. And there comes a point - long past - where basing an economy on debt means basing it on fictional money. The $2.4tn is fictional. That money doesn't exist, anywhere. Nor do the $14.3tn that came before it. It is all a fiction, hitherto a useful one, henceforth a very, very dangerous one.

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Given that all money is essentially fictional (i.e. a mental constuct society has collectively created to denominate value), I'm not sure what point you're making.

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The USA can't really buy anything with its extra $2.4tn, except time. And time is running out. One day, a rising political power will turn round and say, "You know all that fictional money we lent you a few years ago? We'd like it back...". That's the day you won't be able to get out of it by extending the fiction any more.

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Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Honestly, I don't think the lunatic fringes of the House GOP realize how much they've won by: Obama has caved on virtually everything.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The USA can't really buy anything with its extra $2.4tn, except time. And time is running out. One day, a rising political power will turn round and say, "You know all that fictional money we lent you a few years ago? We'd like it back...". That's the day you won't be able to get out of it by extending the fiction any more.

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Does anyone have any ideas that are both legal and practical that those of us who reside in this childish and corporately-owned polical entity can do to rescue ourselves. By us I mean the many who being preyed upon by the few.

I see no hope for this. But God makes a way out of no way.

But (S)he also gives us brains and choice.)

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Originally posted by malik3000:
Does anyone have any ideas that are both legal and practical that those of us who reside in this childish and corporately-owned polical entity can do to rescue ourselves. By us I mean the many who being preyed upon by the few.

I see no hope for this. But God makes a way out of no way.

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
Even without taking inflation into account the price the U.S. government has to pay for credit is ridiculously low. So while there may very well be a point at which the U.S. government can't borrow any more, we're nowhere near that point right now (assuming the debt ceiling is raised and there is no default).

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Originally posted by irish_lord99:
It's about this.

Esp. note the part about "a population capable of critical thinking."

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Do you suppose George (RIP) really believed any of that?

Personally, I prefer the 'blissful ignorance' approach: IME life is much more enjoyable that way.

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Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Honestly, I don't think the lunatic fringes of the House GOP realize how much they've won by: Obama has caved on virtually everything.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
But, as discussed already on this thread, your AAA rating is under serious threat, even if a deal gets done. And once your rating starts to slip, things get very slippery indeed.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
(My point being that the first step on the road to "give us our money back" is "we're going to make it very expensive for you to borrow any more". Ask Greece, Portugal, Ireland and Iceland.)

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Iceland is considering selling foreign-currency debt with longer maturities after last month’s $1 billion sale of five-year dollar bonds was twice oversubscribed, Finance Minister Steingrimur J. Sigfusson said.

“We’re very satisfied with how things have developed, how successful our auction was,” Sigfusson said in a phone interview in Reykjavik yesterday. “Issuing bonds with a longer maturity is an option that we’re looking closely at.”

The cost of insuring against an Icelandic default is now lower than guarding against a credit event in Italy, the third-largest member in the euro area.

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Originally posted by 205:

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Originally posted by irish_lord99:
It's about this.

Esp. note the part about "a population capable of critical thinking."

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Do you suppose George (RIP) really believed any of that?

Personally, I prefer the 'blissful ignorance' approach: IME life is much more enjoyable that way.

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
Thanks, Iceland!

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
Thanks, Iceland!

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... After three years as a virtual economic pariah. Could the USA afford 3 years of that, if it came to it?

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
And there comes a point - long past - where basing an economy on debt means basing it on fictional money. The $2.4tn is fictional. That money doesn't exist, anywhere. Nor do the $14.3tn that came before it. It is all a fiction, hitherto a useful one, henceforth a very, very dangerous one.

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Originally posted by malik3000:
New Yorker, at long last, do facts mean absolutely nothing to you?

First, to momentarily sink to the level of your comment, where do you get the factually wrong idea that the extent of Michelle Obama's travels as a 1st lady is all that different from previous 1st ladies? Or does the commandment "Thou shalt not bear false witness..." mean nothing to you?

Now there are also those who really still can't get past the idea of a African-American 1st Lady. This of course would not be true of you, though hailing from the deep south as you do (despite your screen name)

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