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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: London Riots - The Root Cause
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Amen to that, Gamaliel. I shudder at the idea of a modern-day equivalent of Geneva in Calvin's time, with orthodoxy being enforced by state sanction. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Oh I wouldn't want that! What I would want is a recognition of the work of the churches by local authority and a reversal of the idea that faith groups must be gagged. The salvation Army tries to tell people that our work must necessarily include the faith element or it's not authentic. The churches need to say this loud and clear.
We need to have confidence within ourselves to offer Christ as the answer.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Oh I wouldn't want [a modern-day equivalent of John Calvin's Geneva]!
I'm sure you wouldn't; sorry if I implied that you might!
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What I would want is a recognition of the work of the churches by local authority and a reversal of the idea that faith groups must be gagged.
Do you think public bodies generally don't recognise the work that churches do? And could you give one or two illustrations of what you mean by the gagging of faith groups?
The only restriction that I'm aware of is that faith groups usually aren't permitted to use public funds (from grants, contracts etc.) for activities where the primary purpose is to promote their faith.
I used to run a publicly-funded grant scheme for groups working with children and young people, and faith groups were most welcome to apply. Projects / activities that were primarily about promoting the faith were not eligible, and the groups also had to confirm that their project would be open to people of any / no faith. Are there more restrictions on religious groups these days?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
I'm sure that thanks from local government officials are always offered privately to those responsible in churches and other non-government organisations when effective work is done, and sometimes even publicly. That should be more than enough recognition than is necessary, given that the true reward shall be received in heaven. To demand public adulation of the Salvation Army's leaders trumpeting their great deeds would be the modern-day equivalent of this person who chose to receive their reward in full on earth.
[ 13. August 2011, 14:23: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
And could you give one or two illustrations of what you mean by the gagging of faith groups?
I was once the assistant manager of a Salvation Army hostel for the homeless and the logo for all the hostels was a Salvation Army Red Shield surrounded by the words 'Care in a Christian Environment'. That encapsulated 120+ years of what we have done openly and with public recognition. Then we were told that we could no longer 'care' for the homeless and so, at a national level we had to remove that word and put 'support'. 'Care' plans were changed to 'action plans'.
The next step, which appeared after I returned to preaching work, was that they wanted the word 'Christian' removed - even though that was our published and consistent motivation down through the decades. Even though all faiths are respected and efforts made to facilitate the spiritual needs of residents in conjunction with other faith leaders.
The Salvation Army has never made it a secret that we have a Christian motive and that all our managers must be professing Christians - and yet, after 130 years we are pressurized into stripping away the spiritual content of our centres. The reason is obviously that the authorities do not recognise the value of faith and especially of Christian faith, in the work we do.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
I'm sure that thanks from local government officials are always offered privately to those responsible in churches and other non-government organisations when effective work is done, and sometimes even publicly. That should be more than enough recognition than is necessary, given that the true reward shall be received in heaven. To demand public adulation of the Salvation Army's leaders trumpeting their great deeds would be the modern-day equivalent of this person who chose to receive their reward in full on earth.
yeah thanks Cheeseburger. That's why we don't demand public recognition. Did you see the SA during the riots? Were they interviewed? Were they at the forefront of comment and publicity? No, but they were there just getting on with clean-ups, serving tea, offering safe places and counselling, quietly and without fuss. We've seen it all before and hardly anyone really knows it's happening - much to the annoyance sometimes of Salvation Army people in the rest of the country who would love to know what their comrades are doing.
I'm not asking for recognition of the work - we don't need it to be honest - what I am asking for is the recognition by the government and local authority that the message of the church - faith, morality and spiritual values - is a valuable contribution to the life of a community and should be encouraged and supported, rather than the 'we don't do God but we like your cup of non-faith-specific-fairtrade-tea' mentality.
Vicars, priests, officers and pastors, as well as countless lay people, bring spiritual counsel and influence 'on the quiet', as it were, all the time. It's something that needs to be recognised as central to the needs of the community not just something that is 'nice but not necessary' while they do the 'real' community work.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... We've seen it all before and hardly anyone really knows it's happening - much to the annoyance sometimes of Salvation Army people in the rest of the country who would love to know what their comrades are doing.
I'm not asking for recognition of the work - we don't need it to be honest - what I am asking for is the recognition by the government and local authority that the message of the church - faith, morality and spiritual values - is a valuable contribution to the life of a community ...
... It's something that needs to be recognised as central to the needs of the community not just something that is 'nice but not necessary' while they do the 'real' community work.
So are you requesting/asking/demanding/wishing for some kind of extra recognition in public, or are you not? I can't tell based on this post that says you don't but also says you do!
Or are you just saying that internal communications in the SA are so bad that people rely on secular newspapers to find out what other SA people are doing?
As I wrote above, I'm sure that work done by the SA and other NGOs which is genuinely valued by government departments/agencies is already recognised appropriately according to the circumstances. The appropriate form of recognition would vary according to the nature of the work...
- If we're talking about recognition for outstanding completion of a secular government-funded contract where results have been achieved well above the aims, then the appropriate recognition is a formal speech with presentation of a formal certificate of recognition to the program's director. Some other formal open letter or press conference may also be appropriate. For recognising the mere completion of what the organisation was contracted to do, an formal letter to the organisation that could then be copied internally is adequate.
- For a program/project done on a NGO's initiative (i.e. not funded by the government) that is assessed as having been of outstanding benefit to the community from a purely secular point of view, the appropriate form of recognition is some kind of honour for the organisation or a significant person involved in it on behalf of all the staff. This would be best dealt with in the civil honour lists associated with occasions like the Queens Birthday or Australia Day.
- For a program/project with a significant religious component associated, no formal recognition from the government is appropriate. An informal visit restricted to just the staff involved from a lesser government official (not a mayor, minister or department CEO) or an invite to an informal function might be suitable, as long as the organisation's recent PR record is squeaky clean. This is the case where the due reward is in heaven, and anything above that is a nice bonus.
My experience in the community where I live is that politicians love being seen to be connected with and supporting any NGO, faith-based or not, which does stuff that is generally popular with the community. But as soon as a NGO does something embarrassing or gets caught using government funding for purposes outside their contracted work, they may as well have leprosy. If politicians are deliberately avoiding being seen as pro-SA, this is just the symptom of the problem.
I have no problem with agencies of churches accepting contracts to operate secular programs or projects, but as long as they set the gold standard for integrity through sticking with the contracts they sign. If a church wants to go outside the contract they agreed to, they should request a renegotiation or early termination and use their own money to do their own thing. I do think that mixing evangelism, worship and community work is a really good thing, but if it's not important enough that it warrants priority use of their own money is it really a core issue? Accepting money knowing that it comes with strings attached and then complaining when those strings are pulled is fraudulent - if there was no intention of complying with the contract it should not have been accepted, and the SA's own funds (or some other non-government sponsor) used to provide that service. It's always possible to say no,
I can't see how the SA is being pressured to abandon their core values, I'm sure that if they wanted to run unilaterally Christian services that actually do good things nobody would object to their members giving sacrificially to fund the things they consider important. It's not like any sane person would confuse a SA mission in a city to the Islamic "charities" that fund groups like Hezbollah. It also needs to be pointed out that as a church even their operations that are not directly government-funded already get a huge amount of government assistance through taxation concessions.
[ 13. August 2011, 15:57: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Thanks for your reply to my questions, Mudfrog. I do sympathise with the effect that sudden changes in local authority policy seem to have had on the Salvation Army.
Am I right in thinking the services you mention received funding from one public body or other? If that's the case, I think one just has to go with it; we want the public money, we have to follow the rules imposed. As per the giant cheeseburger's comments, presumably there'd be far fewer restrictions on services provided with no financial support from public funds.
By way of example, Christians Against Poverty receives no government funds (AFAIK) and, thus, can be upfront about their aim 'to show God's love in action'.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Sorry, I think we've moved off the point somewhat tanks to Cheeseburger.
It is NOT that I want the government to publicise the work of the churches and say how wonderful they are at all!
I am asking that the role of Christian faith, morality and spiritual values be recognised - even when they underpin the 'community work' done by the churches.
I spoke as a Christian, not as an evangelical in this instance, and so I would like the work of all churches that involves spirituality - and not necessarily proselyting - to be recognised when it is part and parcel of what we do.
I want someone to say that faith should be valued as a community value, and not just secular philosophy.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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redderfreak
Shipmate
# 15191
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Posted
One thing that concerns me is the disproportionate sentencing that appears to be going on. I read that someone got six months in prison for stealing some bottles of water. Dave Cameron, George Osborne and Boris Johnson's Bullingdon Club, by contrast, get off by just throwing money at people.Bullindon Club trash pub
I can see that pointing to root causes just seems to make people angry because it appears to be justifying the actions. However, history shows that petty crime goes up in recessions and is more commmon in poor areas. It doesn't make it OK, it's just a fact. If people are happy and content, they do less crime.
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You know I just couldn't make it by myself, I'm a little too blind to see
Posts: 287 | From: Exeter | Registered: Sep 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by redderfreak:
One thing that concerns me is the disproportionate sentencing that appears to be going on. I read that someone got six months in prison for stealing some bottles of water. Dave Cameron, George Osborne and Boris Johnson's Bullingdon Club, by contrast, get off by just throwing money at people.Bullindon Club trash pub
I can see that pointing to root causes just seems to make people angry because it appears to be justifying the actions. However, history shows that petty crime goes up in recessions and is more commmon in poor areas. It doesn't make it OK, it's just a fact. If people are happy and content, they do less crime.
That doesn't quite hold water when you conmsider that a lot of the rioters were well off! What were they unhappy and discontented about? These weren't riots filled with starving people wanting bread! As far as I am aware when Debenhams was stripped of all its luxury goods, I don't think Tescos was cleared out of bread, milk and baby food!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Mudfrog, engage with what I said, not what you thought I said ...
I'm not saying that we should dilute the gospel, take God out of what we do or anything of the kind. And yes, the SA is exemplary in the way that it integrates faith and practice and gets on with what it does behind the scenes and without a great deal of trumpeting - except when you come on these Boards and tell us about it ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I accept what you're saying about the authorities trying to secularise what you were doing, but on the whole I'd suggest that both government agencies and the general public are in favour of faith groups (of whatever kind) doing genuinely good work. It ain't simply a case of 'they're alright because they've got Fair Trade tea and coffee.'
I'm not denying that it's Christ that saves and transforms people either but for some reason I find your revivalist rhetoric rather tiresome. Like the SA, I've seen it all before ... ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
I'm frankly not bothered whether a social initiative down town is run by Muslims, Sikhs, Rastafarians, Pentecostals, RCs, the SA or the Jolly Green Giant Cheeseworshippers ... just as long as it's done authentically and effectively and with demonstrable outcomes.
I'd like to see much more of this sort of thing done by the churches - and yes, in the name of Christ rather than a nebulous set of 'values'. But I'm not talking about vague values here, I'm talking about the building blocks of a civilised society that we can all sign up to. I'm not saying we should privatise our faith and reserve it for church on Sunday or the synagogue on Saturday, the Friday prayers at the mosque or whatever else ...
This isn't just about the church and Christianity, it's bigger than that ... and God's bigger than everything anyway.
I'm finding it quite hard to articulate what I'm thinking of here, to be honest, because I want to maintain a position that Christ is the answer to everything and that the Spirit of God changes people etc ... and yes, I believe all of that - but I somehow want to engage in it without sounding like someone who bangs a tambourine on a street-corner. Not that there's anything wrong in doing that, of course, it's got a lot to recommend it. It lifts my spirits whenever I hear an SA band or see them out selling the War Cry and much else.
But I dunno ... there's something about the tone of how you're pitching all this that grates with me now for some reason. It's like I've had enough of all that ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Somebody mentioned the lottery a coupla pages back and I'd like to put in a bid for pinning a generous portion of the blame on what the National Lottery has done and is doing to our culture - not single-handedly, of course, (despite its leering logo) but alongside the rest of the stuff that helps to build the illusion that something-for-nothing is within your grasp. It came in hand-in-hand with Crazy Credit and your-house-is-your-biggest-asset Massive Mortgages - but whereas much of that has taken a knock recently, the lottery is still very much with us.
It may be that money - or the love of it - is not the root all evil, but certainly stupidity (and gambling on that scale is pretty stupid, IMHO) about money makes a very unhappy combination with cupidity. And combine those with the commodification of education - so that even if you're intelligent and hard-working it still looks as though you will have to buy your way out from the bottom of the heap - and you will get a culture in which large numbers of people see nothing much wrong in grabbing what you can when the opportunity arises.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
I'd like to put in a bid for pinning a generous portion of the blame on what the National Lottery has done and is doing to our culture ... that helps to build the illusion that something-for-nothing is within your grasp.
It's not something for nothing - Euromillions recently went up to £2.00!
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
I've just heard possibly the stupidest comment about the rioting that I've heard in a while. I was just flipping through the t.v. channels and heard this British preacher, David Holloway talking about the root causes of the riots. He said the breakdown of morals in the country was to blame. Asked what specifically he meant, he said that the breakup of the family, high divorce rates, and the homosexual lifestyle were the reasons that the youth of today had no moral compass.
Yep, blame it on those eeeeevil homosexuals again! Why, I bet those evil homosexuals put the idea to riot into the minds of those impressionable, morally bankrupt youth. The menace of the homosexuals and their sinful "lifestyle" are to blame! ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Mudfrog--
What about recognizing the value of *other* faiths?
Does holding up faith as a community value shut out agnostics, atheists, and seekers?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
Evening Paddy O. Adrian Holloway's comments - was he talking about homosexual lifesryle or same sex parents? The latter would make more sense in the overall context of your summary of his comments. There is a legitimate ongoing discussion about the relative merits of different models of parenting. I didn't heat his comments so just guessing here.
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
The Rev Holloway has form on this. (Declares interest - I used to work at his church and worshipped there for the best part of 15 years).
The argument goes: by encouraging* homosexual activity, society undermines the basis of heterosexual marriage** and the stability of the traditional*** family.
*decriminalising it
**how, I've never quite understood
***can I sleep with my concubine or not?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Well, everyone knows London street gangs are full of raging homosexuals in pink tutus singing the YMCA song ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
A number of points.
Another Bullingdon story. Bullingdon excesses
I got good and mad listening to the BBC Radio 4 Sunday programme this morning where they had Nadine Dorries, a vicar from Hackney and a pastor from Salford discussing the moral failings and lack of church leadership which lie at the root of the riots. Nadine Dorries introduced the idea that abortion was somehow involved, and the vicar seemed to support this by pointing out that the bishops in the Lords speak out on this subject. I think experiments on human tissue were also mentioned. These are serious issues, with more than one side to the arguments, but not relevant to the looting and burning that were going on.
Then they moved on to government support for the breaking up of marriages. Arguably this is more relevant, but there seems to be an assumption that the absence of fathers is not due to said fathers absenting themselves, and that said fathers would all be providing positive role models. The speakers also seemed to think that any marriage has to be better than a divorce.
I have known people whose partners left them to bring up the children alone when they went off with another woman. Is that the wife's fault? Is she to be punished?
I have also known, when I was teaching, mothers who I have commiserated with about the husband who has abandoned them, only to be told how relieved they were that the man was gone because of the effect he had on the whole family.
The speakers on the radio seemed entirely ignorant of the existence of unhappy marriages which destroyed people's lives. Given that two were involved in pastoral roles in their churches, and one as an MP must have come across such problems in her surgery, this is appalling.
I remember a piece on the radio drawing on social studies in London in the early part of the last century which showed just how negative marriage could be. Women so damaged by many pregnancies that they could not use the stairs except in a sitting position, who were nevertheless expected to keep the house clean and their husband fed, or face violence, and expected to lie down for his attentions when he came in drunk on a Friday. Marriage has historically been for many, and in some cases still is, slavery. Seeking to close off escape for those who need it is stupid.
I have written to the programme suggesting more nuanced discussions in future.
Penny
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
Mark Steyn sums up exceedingly well in seven words why the riots got so out of hand:
“In Britain, everything is policed except crime.”
Mark Steyn is a liar and a cheat and a racist and so right-wing if he flew a plane it would roll in to the runway on take-off and totally ignorant of British politics and if you believe a single word the mendacious little cunt says about life in Britain then you are a gullible fool. His articles are not news, they are not even comment, they are propaganda designed to dupe people into voting for his friends and political masters. What he says about Britain is probably less worth paying attention to than what Coke says about Pepsi.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Just read that - I wasn't going to until I read ken's comment. Boy what a self satisfied little [insert word of own choice as I can't bring myself to write the ones that occur to me] with his little coterie of sycophants. Nothing about the cleaneruppers I see. Would that have happened in the States?
Penny
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Mark Steyn is a liar and a cheat and a racist and so right-wing if he flew a plane it would roll in to the runway on take-off and totally ignorant of British politics and if you believe a single word the mendacious little cunt says about life in Britain then you are a gullible fool. His articles are not news, they are not even comment, they are propaganda designed to dupe people into voting for his friends and political masters. What he says about Britain is probably less worth paying attention to than what Coke says about Pepsi.
Nice. But the Marxist class-hate diatribe that you linked to a few days ago was balanced and well-observed, right?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Its not on target its rubbish. And my post was not ad hominem, it was abusive. Get your rhetorical tropes right.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
But the Marxist class-hate diatribe that you linked to a few days ago was balanced and well-observed, right?
"Class-hate diatribe"? You obviously never read it. And anyway I never said that I agreed with it just that it was interesting and partially accurate.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
It seems to me that the younger generations have been groomed to be ego centred so that they demand rights to have everything they want immediately. This is a significant change from my childhood when I was constantly told that I wasn't the centre of the universe. I know that these are generalisations, but I have seen enough examples to make me think that this may explain some of the chaotic behaviour of recent days. However, I doubt if there is any chance of a return to former values.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
You obviously never read it. And anyway I never said that I agreed with it just that it was interesting and partially accurate.
Because I couldn't possibly have read it and differ from your opinion of it. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
That you commended it to our reading at all, can't see the class-hate in it and commented on Steyn as vitriolically as you did above hardly inclines me to your way of seeing the world.
[ 14. August 2011, 13:48: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
Mark Steyn sums up exceedingly well in seven words why the riots got so out of hand:
“In Britain, everything is policed except crime.”
Nope. Way off the mark. Doesn't even scratch the surface. Yes, we've bred a generation (probably two or three, actually) who have a nasty sense of entitlement - but the moral example is set by politicians, celebrities, and business people, virtually all of whom have for years been taking, taking, taking - and giving nothing. Peter Oborne's Telegraph article, which I linked to on the previous page, is still the best thing I've read on the subject. Our society is rotten from the top down, not from the bottom up.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
Mark Steyn sums up exceedingly well in seven words why the riots got so out of hand:
“In Britain, everything is policed except crime.”
Nope. Way off the mark. Doesn't even scratch the surface. Yes, we've bred a generation (probably two or three, actually) who have a nasty sense of entitlement - but the moral example is set by politicians, celebrities, and business people, virtually all of whom have for years been taking, taking, taking - and giving nothing. Peter Oborne's Telegraph article, which I linked to on the previous page, is still the best thing I've read on the subject. Our society is rotten from the top down, not from the bottom up.
Nope, our society is rotten from the inside, out.
It's out of the heart that all this stuff flows.
Unredeemed hearts produce unredeemed actions - it's mere respectability that prevents most of us behaving like thugs.
The fact that so many well-off, educated and privileged people took part in these riots shows that it's not an economic thing - it's a lack morality, an ignorance or disregard of right and wrong.
It's Godlessness, pure and simple.
Even if that IS an unfashionable view that I will be criticised for - again!
But hey, it's my parapet and I'll stick my head over it as often as I like.
[ 14. August 2011, 14:00: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
As for interesting links this interesting (and now mildly famous) blog post is worth reading. And tells you more than Mark Steyn's ignorant whinging ever could. And, no, I'm not saying I agree with everything the blogger says.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
It seems to me that the younger generations have been groomed to be ego centred so that they demand rights to have everything they want immediately. This is a significant change from my childhood when I was constantly told that I wasn't the centre of the universe. I know that these are generalisations, but I have seen enough examples to make me think that this may explain some of the chaotic behaviour of recent days. However, I doubt if there is any chance of a return to former values.
Every generation has told the coming one the very same thing. It has made no difference in the past and will make no difference in the future. The 'former values' you mention are a fiction.
Pensioners have all worked fifty years without a day off sick, working people pay their taxes and those who can't, won't or don't work not only demand assistance but get a bollocking from the 'haves' for doing so.
There are enough motes and beams around now to rebuild England in timber. And what a good idea!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It's out of the heart that all this stuff flows.
Unredeemed hearts produce unredeemed actions - it's mere respectability that prevents most of us behaving like thugs.
Well, speak for yourself. And I know any number of 'ordinary decent pagans' who wouldn't behave like a thug, either.
[ 14. August 2011, 14:26: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
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Forward the New Republic
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It's Godlessness, pure and simple.
This has been said so often, you have now convinced me of the Truth. I surrender and shall follow your guidance and commence looting now.
hmmm, rock or hammer for smashing windows and where did I see that giant telly.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
Have you even read Steyn's article, Ken? It makes sense. A lot of sense, a damning indictment of the entitlement culture bred bred by welfare dependence. I know you won't like that but it's time to wake up; my last vestige of liberalism died when I saw Graham Reeves' store burn...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Have you even read Steyn's article, Ken? .
Yes I have. It is ignorant lies.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Have you even read Steyn's article, Ken? It makes sense. A lot of sense, a damning indictment of the entitlement culture bred bred by welfare dependence. I know you won't like that but it's time to wake up; my last vestige of liberalism died when I saw Graham Reeves' store burn...
I read it. It reeks so much of white middle-class Tory entitlement that the peg I was wearing on my nose wasn't sufficient to keep out the stench of smugness.
quote:
One tenth of the adult population has done not a day’s work since Tony Blair took office on May 1, 1997.
I suppose I'm going to be branded a communist for asking why these people were unemployed in the first place...
Appeal to WWII? Check. Laud the Empire (Empire? FFS...)? Check. Attack on 'PC gone mad'? Check. Institution of marriage done for? (despite divorce rates are at 30 year low and first-time marriages are actually growing) Check. It's the Daily Mail by numbers. Lazy, stupid, ignorant and wrong.
Just think about what's wrong with this paragraph: quote:
Big Government means small citizens: It corrodes the integrity of a people, catastrophically. Within living memory, the city in flames on our TV screens every night governed a fifth of the earth’s surface and a quarter of its population. When you’re imperialists on that scale, there are bound to be a few mishaps along the way. But nothing the British Empire did to its subject peoples has been as total and catastrophic as what a post-great Britain did to its own.
He attacks big government at the start of the para, and by the end, he's praising the British Empire, the biggest global government the world has ever seen. If that's what passes for insightful critique, I'll have the monosyllabic grunts of a looter, thanks very much.
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Forward the New Republic
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
, a damning indictment of the entitlement culture bred bred by welfare dependence.
An article about the banks then, is it?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Have you even read Steyn's article, Ken? It makes sense. A lot of sense, a damning indictment of the entitlement culture bred bred by welfare dependence. I know you won't like that but it's time to wake up; my last vestige of liberalism died when I saw Graham Reeves' store burn...
Looks like Matt's joined the Forces of Over-reaction.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Sleepwalker
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# 15343
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
Mark Steyn sums up exceedingly well in seven words why the riots got so out of hand:
“In Britain, everything is policed except crime.”
Mark Steyn is a liar and a cheat and a racist and so right-wing if he flew a plane it would roll in to the runway on take-off and totally ignorant of British politics and if you believe a single word the mendacious little cunt says about life in Britain then you are a gullible fool.
In which case I'm a fool and proud. Having worked for Social Services for some years in a couple of different towns, I know full well that while he does use hyperbole in his article, the stories he includes are accurate. I know that the British taxpayer pays for 15 year old girls to move into a house (which they 'bid' for) with their baby and pay for it to be furnished, for the mother and baby to attend places like SureStart and all the rest. I know that the British taxpayer pays for heroin addicts to go on courses and have methadone replacement and for their children to remain in their care with costly social work input. I know that the British taxpayer funds so-called 'incentive payments' to individuals who have actually left care but who continue to have everything provided at tax payer's expense such as education costs and allowances until they are 21 years old. The story about a disabled boy being flown to the continent to have sex with a hooker featured on a Panorama programme a couple of years ago discussing the role of the state in Britain.
I thought his final quote was spot on.
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
Sorry but something has snapped inside me; the riots have become a tipping point
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Sorry but something has snapped inside me; the riots have become a tipping point
So Thatcher closing the mines, the shipyards and the steelworks wasn't a tipping point? Hundreds of MPs stealing taxpayers' money wasn't a tipping point? Bankers helping themselves to billions that weren't theirs wasn't a tipping point? Government being run by and for a powerful media concern wasn't a tipping point?
A few hundred people run amok and help themselves to consumer goods, and it's suddenly the end of the world? It's a shame they don't sell consciences or backbones...
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Forward the New Republic
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
Mark Steyn sums up exceedingly well in seven words why the riots got so out of hand:
“In Britain, everything is policed except crime.”
Mark Steyn is a liar and a cheat and a racist and so right-wing if he flew a plane it would roll in to the runway on take-off and totally ignorant of British politics and if you believe a single word the mendacious little cunt says about life in Britain then you are a gullible fool.
In which case I'm a fool and proud. Having worked for Social Services for some years in a couple of different towns, I know full well that while he does use hyperbole in his article, the stories he includes are accurate. I know that the British taxpayer pays for 15 year old girls to move into a house (which they 'bid' for) with their baby and pay for it to be furnished, for the mother and baby to attend places like SureStart and all the rest. I know that the British taxpayer pays for heroin addicts to go on courses and have methadone replacement and for their children to remain in their care with costly social work input. I know that the British taxpayer funds so-called 'incentive payments' to individuals who have actually left care but who continue to have everything provided at tax payer's expense such as education costs and allowances until they are 21 years old. The story about a disabled boy being flown to the continent to have sex with a hooker featured on a Panorama programme a couple of years ago discussing the role of the state in Britain.
I thought his final quote was spot on.
Whatever else, Mark Steyn hasn't been constructive. Constructive criticism is at a premium on this thread (and I don't exclude myself) and it's a rare commodity everywhere else. However, those on the Ship don't run the country nor are we 'opinion formers', while those who are, like Theresa May (Home Secretary), Ray Mallon (ex-cop, now Mayor of Middlesbrough) and countless hacks are shooting from the lip, mostly for effect and popular reaction.
I'd like to turn things round and I think the peace rally and clean-ups are a good sign.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Have you even read Steyn's article, Ken? It makes sense. A lot of sense, a damning indictment of the entitlement culture bred bred by welfare dependence. I know you won't like that but it's time to wake up; my last vestige of liberalism died when I saw Graham Reeves' store burn...
The problem is that if one can't say "It's because of poverty and social exclusion" - because there are lots of poor and socially excluded people who didn't loot - then one can't say "It's because of welfare dependency", for exactly the same reason.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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SeraphimSarov
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# 4335
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Posted
SERMON FOR THE EIGHTH SUNDAY AFTER TRINITY 2011.
Sunday 14 August 2011.
In the Name of Almighty God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Merciful and Compassionate – Amen.
On Wednesday of last week I stood before the Astronomical Clock in the North Transept of York Minster, which is the War Memorial to the 18,000 Allied Airmen who lost their lives in the Second World War and as I read the inscription –
‘You who look upon this monument to Heroism do not go away without saying a prayer to Almighty God for those who sacrificed their lives to preserve the freedom you enjoy’
I could not help but contrast the sacrifice made on our behalf and the freedom we enjoy, with the mindless thuggery that we have seen on our streets in recent days; which is a total abuse of the freedom that was won for the Western Democracies. Men and Women have given their lives and are still doing so, most notably in Afghanistan so that we may maintain our freedom – and what do we seen in London , Liverpool, Birmingham and Manchester and Gloucester of all places, but mindless criminal behaviour by people from all walks of life, most of them young and some of them from so called ‘ good ‘ families.
So who is to blame – well for a start
Us - society
The Prime Minister called it a ‘ Sick Society’ and I have previously said from this Pulpit that the vast majority of people in this country of ours are honest and law abiding, but we have suffered because the ‘ silent majority’ has done just that; kept silent – and kept silent in the face of enormous provocation.
Last week people did stand up for the rights of freedom and some have died
Haroon Jahan, 21,
Shazad Ali, 30,
and Abdul Musavir, 31,
Who were killed when a car hit them in Winson Green, early on Wednesday. The indications are that this was a deliberate act and two boys, aged 16 and 17, and a man, 26, have been arrested on suspicion of murder. A 32-year-old man arrested on suspicion of murder on Wednesday has been bailed. Another man was arrested yesterday
Our hearts and prayers go out to the Muslim Community of Birmingham as they mourn these three young men who were standing, as is their right, in defence of their property
When the rioters came to attack the premises of Kurdish and Turkish businesses Stoke Newington High Street and Kingsland Road on Monday night, the owners were waiting for them. And a fearless West Indian Woman faced down rioters, in Hackney. And to give and indication of what shops were predominantly looted well surprise – surprise places like Curry’s and Sports wear shops
As well as Society in general we must lay blame on those who formulate our laws – and in some cases those who administer them; in other words Governments of every political persuasion and Judges and Magistrates who pass sentences that fly in the face of reason for their leniency when leniency sends the wrong message
Mr Cameron, you and your government are reaping the whirlwind that was sown years ago and we all ignored the warning signs and we are reminded of this in Paul’s Letter to Galatians 6: 7 -9
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow. 8If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh; but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit. 9So let us not grow weary in doing what is right, for we will reap at harvest time, if we do not give up.
We are reaping from a generation that has not been given a positive moral lead. And instead has looked on the ‘Big Brother’ types as role models
Whose fault – as I have said –
Politicians
–to which I add the chattering and politically correct classes who have wielded an influence out of all proportion to their worth –
to Schools and Teachers – who have in many cases but not all, deliberately marginalised religion (especially if it is Christian) often because of political pressure.
Then I add my generation and the one below that is from those aged 65 – to those in their 30’s and why, because although most of us are pretty upstanding and law abiding we have let so much pass us by, instead of standing up and saying NO.
The Media – where in some sections, morals went out of the window years ago and we didn’t bat an eye-lid – we have put up with the drivel on our TV screens and accepted the lame excuses offered up by producers when challenged.
and lastly the Church –
The Christian Church – (us) has failed to stand up for itself robustly enough, and has allowed itself to be walked all over, frightened in case people criticise it for being kill joy- not moving with the times, and being irrelevant.
Sick Society – yes in many cases – but just as important ‘ A society that has lost its soul’. When I take weddings and funerals – you would be surprised that in this so-called Christian Country many people do not know how to say the Lord’s Prayer.
God through Christ gave us two Commandments – to love God and our neighbour – If we had had the traditional ‘Mass’ instead of the ‘Modern’ we would have used the Summary of the Law beginning with the Shema at the Confession…. Well these days many have either forgotten God, or have never been given proper instruction and as for loving neighbour – in the situation we are addressing today – it’s; what can I steal from my neighbour.
God is love, but is also to be respected and as St Paul says - is not mocked – but these days there is not an iota of looking over one’s shoulder to see if God is looking – couldn’t care less – nothing is going to happen! Don’t be too sure! We now live in a society that has lost its sense of values and its morals – seemingly anything goes – from sexual gratification in public to the I want – I must have - syndrome.
What people do in the privacy of their own homes is in the main, a matter between themselves and God, so I am not having a go at any section of Society for ‘ whatever turns them on’ but I am having a go when its rammed down our throats in public. Similarly the young and I mean the very young are deliberately targeted by Advertisers and Manufacturers to wear inappropriate fashion and use make up and read salacious rubbish – this includes children and particularly girls of 5 and 6.
If we as Parents deny their children because we don’t happen to agree with it – then the child becomes subjected to peer pressure.
So we come to the last string in our bow and that is the parents – as we looked at these mindless hooligans some as young as 11 taking to the streets and creating mayhem – the question I must ask is where were the parents in all this – didn’t they know – or didn’t they care. One Judge made a mother come to Court – good for the Judge.
When I was young - my Father would say – you are not to mix with so and so – he is trouble – Similarly I wouldn’t have dared come home in the company of a Constable – I really would have been in trouble. Now all we hear is: ‘so – what’. You can’t touch me…. There is a want of respect; and yes respect has to be earned, but it isn’t even mentioned in many homes.
And then take a look at teenage pregnancies – we have the highest in Europe – what does that tell us about parenting and social attitudes. Is the State expected to fund these totally irresponsible girls- especially when the boy or man in question who is equally responsible, clears off rather than accept any responsibility at all. Just what are parents teaching their children! And we hear again so – what. The problem here is that it is not the child’s fault that his or her teenage parents and their parents have been totally irresponsible and of course for the protection and well being of the child – the State intervenes.
The time has come for the Christian Church to stand up for itself and along with other people of faith and goodwill to say to the Politicians – yes it is a sick society – cure it or suffer even worse consequences in the years to come.
I did have a slightly wacky thought which illustrates the nonsensical attitude of some politicians – smoking is banned in pubs now – and of course so many of them have shut down because of it – the reason being health – well OK I wouldn’t encourage people to smoke – but let’s take it a step further and ban alcohol in pubs on the grounds that 24 hour binge drinking is a contributory factor in a lawless society – of course that is nonsense, and I like a drink as much as the next man - but it illustrates a point – to pander to the politically correct the smoking ban is enforced – but also to satisfy the politically correct 24 hour drinking is allowed – nay encouraged – and what happens – people often go in fear on the streets at night, especially at weekends, as drunken foul mouthed hordes roam around.
A Nation that continues to treads this path is on the road to anarchy.
So the remedies – no cuts to police budgets – we need more not less – bobbies on the beat, if to do nothing more than reassure – the Police have suffered as have teachers and doctors from the mind set of the form filler – the box ticking.
Then the Church to reassert its place in this ‘Christian’ country – right at the heart
A working together of Christian, Jew and Muslim and others to ensure that faith is not marginalised.
And finally if the Government won’t do it – the people have a right to protect themselves and if that happens – then anarchy has arrived.
I leave you with this comment made by Sir John Major in 1992 when asked about his quote :
A Nation at ease with itself.
‘to make sure that everybody has the same opportunities whichever part of the country they come from, to achieve whatever it is they wish to achieve. That people have the right to self respect, they have the right to dignity, they have the right to good service’
To which I would add and to practise their faith without fear and add a moral dimension to a Nation that has forgotten its morals and its place in the world. Amen
Today at 9:54am
(sermon preached by Fr David Chesters, St John the Baptist, Chester, UK. C of E)
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
my last vestige of liberalism died when I saw Graham Reeves' store burn...
By contrast with the Daily Mail-type hysteria around, the Reeves family and staff members who appeared on TV were models of calm and moderation. Saddened they obviously were, but their lack of (what would have been understandable) vitriol was impressive.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Amos
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# 44
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Posted
It took me a long time to scroll past that sermon you posted, SS. Are you sure it is not copyright?
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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SeraphimSarov
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# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
It took me a long time to scroll past that sermon you posted, SS. Are you sure it is not copyright?
Not copyright. From friend to friend
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
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Soror Magna
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# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... It's Godlessness, pure and simple.
Even if that IS an unfashionable view that I will be criticised for - again!
But hey, it's my parapet and I'll stick my head over it as often as I like.
OK, so the problem is Godlessness. #1. What, exactly, is Godlessness? #2. What, exactly, should be done to rectify it? #3. How, exactly, can this change be objectively measured? OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I've just read that Mark Steyn article and it made me ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) .
Not because it's too close to the target to be comfortable but because it was crap and contained remarks about British women's alleged easy virtue. If I'd said that all American women were 'ho's, I'd be called to Hell for it - and rightly so.
The guy's so far up his own arse he can't see properly.
Of course there are issues with some aspects of 'big government' and with the Blair/Brown legacy (as much as the Thatcher/Major one too).
But the smug and self-congratulatory tone made me barf.
I've just sent St Punk the Impious a PM expressing my strong disapproval. And now I've calmed down ...
I try to be Mr Moderate. I'd take issue with the blog that ken is fond of citing just as much - but in a different way.
But if it's anything that keeps me left of centre it's the kind of vicious, vacuous, right-wing racist SHITE pedalled by bastards like Steyn.
Words fail me ... I'm coming out in spots. I've an allergy to bastards like that.
What we need is proper, balance, considered debate not smug diatribes by right or left ... a plague on Mark Steyn and a plague on that smug leftie blogger that ken likes.
But I'd side with ken any day of the week against St Punk the Self-Righteous.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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