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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: London Riots - The Root Cause
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't believe it. Some other clown on that National Review site is saying that the UK's shop keepers are sorely in need of gun rights in order to protect their property from looters.
Give me a break ... ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Does he really want this country to become as lawless and murder-ridden as the US?
I expect there were more homicides on one single precinct in any average US city this last week than in a whole week of rioting here in the UK.
What happened in London and other cities was shameful and disgraceful.
But the last thing we need is advice from right-wing Republican arseholes who don't know shit.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't believe it. Some other clown on that National Review site is saying that the UK's shop keepers are sorely in need of gun rights in order to protect their property from looters.
That is monumentally misguided.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Absolutely.
I don't want to get angry about this. I want to remain level-headed, but that National Review site made me furious. I really, really, really, really can't stand the US Right. It's a visceral thing with me.
Particularly when it comes out with crap like that. As if all solutions came out of the barrel of a gun.
This isn't an anti-US rant but it seems to me that they, of all people, are in no position to throw stones on this one ... they're living in a glass house that's bigger than the Crystal Cathedral and just as fragile.
Mark Steyn and St Punk know diddly-squat about policing and so on in this country. Anyone can pull out a few horror stories about daft things being done with public money. I expect many of us here could do the same.
That National Review site is scarey. I can't believe those guys are for real. Please, please tell me it's not true ... I won't sleep tonight otherwise ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The Rev Holloway has form on this. (Declares interest - I used to work at his church and worshipped there for the best part of 15 years).
The argument goes: by encouraging* homosexual activity, society undermines the basis of heterosexual marriage** and the stability of the traditional*** family.
Here's what I find so depressing about this situation: I think there's a very real chance that we will end up learning nothing from the riots, for the simple reason that everyone is convinced that they were caused mainly by whatever it was they thought was most wrong with society in the first place. So socialists see it as a product of social deprivation, neo-liberals as too much entitlement, conservative Christians as the result of a godless society. There are plenty of racists blaming it on too many brown faces around. It hasn't been a wake up call - it's been a confirmation of prejudice for so many people. If, like Holloway, you see a deviation from traditional sexual morality as the moral issue of the day, then no doubt that caused the riots.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
As if all solutions came out of the barrel of a gun.
Chairman Mao would certainly have agreed with that bit. The rest, not so much.
Yes, of course those guys are for real. Sorry if it keeps you awake at night, Gamaliel!
In general, I have to say though that if the responses here are anything to go by, then allowing yourself to be wound up into a frenzy by Mr. Steyn plays right into their hands.
Think. For God's sake, think. Culture wars involve a sort of reciprocal moral panic. Engaging in this way prolongs it, and gives legitimacy to a absurdly overinflated POV.
There are other ways.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
It hasn't been a wake up call - it's been a confirmation of prejudice for so many people. If, like Holloway, you see a deviation from traditional sexual morality as the moral issue of the day, then no doubt that caused the riots.
You are most likely right.
And while I'm socialist, and acknowledge that riots do come from social deprivation, I think there's more than enough evidence to show that this wasn't the only, or even primary cause.
It's something to do with the bread-and-circuses consensual hallucination we've engaged in, and encouraged, for decades. Trying to pick that apart is going to be a nightmare.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Thanks for helping me put it into perspective, Honest Ron.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I suppose I read so little of that sort of material that when I do it's a shock to the system. I particularly don't expect it from Shipmates on what has generally been a balanced debate on this thread.
I don't always agree with ken and I don't always agree with Matt Black, but I wouldn't 'lose it' with either of them.
I s'pose the best way to deal with that Neo-Con garbage is simply to ignore it and treat it with the contempt it so richly deserves.
Pax.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
It is almost impossible to take Mr Steyn's piece seriously....so i won't. He has some coverage and some publicity, maybe he will be quiet now.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But the last thing we need is advice from right-wing Republican arseholes who don't know shit.
I am sorry, I must disagree. They do know shit. Lately it seems that shit is all they know.
quote:
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Unfortunately Santayana was wrong and Liopleurodon is correct. What is remembered is less relevant than how it is spun.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
It wasn't really aimed at you, Gamaliel - more a general observation. I've seen far too many good people turn into frothing culture warriors by being wound up by such demagogues, either pro or con. Indeed perhaps Mr. Steyn once was one such good man, and could become so again. Heaven only knows.
I just thought that it this stage of things, it's a highly undesirable trait that will militate against moving towards a shared understanding.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
Someone suggested the root cause was 'Godlessness' and someone else asked what this is and how it can be measured. I might reframe the statement slightly. In as much as 'Godlessness' is a root cause (and I would dare to suggest there are others) the issue for me is a lack of the fear, awe, and reverence for God. Not fear of people acting in His name, but that real sense that God Himself is going to get seriously hacked off with certain things that we get up to, and the prospect of having to explain ourselves to Him face to face.
There are some people in this universe who, for a variety of reasons, I seriously don't want to disappoint. And there's one in particular.
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
What I resent is the implication that non-Christians lack a moral compass.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
Take heart, Gamaliel: At least the British Right is unlikely to be supportive of Mr Steyn's article, with its assertions that (a) English women are all whores and (b) British police are irredeemably stupid.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Sorry but something has snapped inside me; the riots have become a tipping point
So Thatcher closing the mines, the shipyards and the steelworks wasn't a tipping point? Hundreds of MPs stealing taxpayers' money wasn't a tipping point? Bankers helping themselves to billions that weren't theirs wasn't a tipping point? Government being run by and for a powerful media concern wasn't a tipping point? .
Those are all tipping points towards liberalism/ the left, not away from it.
[ 14. August 2011, 22:15: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Sorry but something has snapped inside me; the riots have become a tipping point
So Thatcher closing the mines, the shipyards and the steelworks wasn't a tipping point? Hundreds of MPs stealing taxpayers' money wasn't a tipping point? Bankers helping themselves to billions that weren't theirs wasn't a tipping point? Government being run by and for a powerful media concern wasn't a tipping point? .
Those are all tipping points towards liberalism/ the left, not away from it.
I have just composed a bad-tempered and hasty retort but deleted it because it is not contributing to analysing the root cause of the 'riots'.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
PS Sorry if I come across a bit more foam-mouthed than usual; my wife's family is in Croydon, are in the fitted furniture business and know Graham Reeves; that could easily have been their own business up in flames, so forgive me for taking it a bit too personally - there's more than a grain of truth in Liopleurodon's comment.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Sorry but something has snapped inside me; the riots have become a tipping point
So Thatcher closing the mines, the shipyards and the steelworks wasn't a tipping point? Hundreds of MPs stealing taxpayers' money wasn't a tipping point? Bankers helping themselves to billions that weren't theirs wasn't a tipping point? Government being run by and for a powerful media concern wasn't a tipping point? .
Those are all tipping points towards liberalism/ the left, not away from it.
Which is exactly my point. Having encountered all those tipping points previously, you should be as left-wing as I am.
That you are not is because when the rich and powerful take away your freedom and money, you envy them and want to be like them. When the poor and powerless threaten to do the same, you are afraid and want protecting from them.
However, my lower middle/working class community can probably protect itself against rioters in a way that we can't against the politicians, the corporations and the bankers - who have done, and will continue to do, far more damage and steal more from us than a bunch of opportunistic thieves ever could. A plague on both their houses, but I know who I'm watching more closely.
(x-posted with Matt - I have family in South Norwood, who shop in Croydon and go to school there. Sorry and all, but a sense of perspective is necessary)
[ 14. August 2011, 22:39: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
... everyone is convinced that they were caused mainly by whatever it was they thought was most wrong with society in the first place. So socialists see it as a product of social deprivation, neo-liberals as too much entitlement, conservative Christians as the result of a godless society.
Yes. And right now the government seem to be blaming the Metropolitan Police. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
But I would want to take issue with one thing there - doctrinally conservative Christians ought not to blame "a godless society" for crime. If anything that's a theologically liberal position. They ought to blame sin, not the same thing at all.
Today's Gospel reading in church was from Matthew 15, includng the famous line "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies...". So that was where the sermon started. When someone robs or steals, they are responsible for their actions. And it is the result of their sinful nature. But things have complex causes. As well as individual sin and original sinthere are also those "principalities and powers", a Godless or demonic world system. (The preacher, presumaby deliberately, left it ambiguous as to whether he was talking about actual personal demons or things like nationalism and oppression and so on - quite wise of him, because so did the Apostle Paul). There can be multiple causes of evil behaviour - personal as well as political (If I'd been preaching I'd have probably said that the personal is political, but I wasn't)
An orthodox Christian ought not to be trapped into thinking that one group of people is inherently more sinful than any other. But natural human inclinations work themselves out differently in different circumstances. If bankers are less likely to loot JD Sports than unemployed teenagers are its not because they are better people but because they have better things to be doing.
We can't change people's souls. Governments and police forces can't alter human nature. But we can collectively change our circumstances. Or we can try to. A Christian ought to be mildly optimistic about the practical value of improving lives - because lots of equally sinful people don't rob and steal. A political conservative might think that some class or race or group or people was "broken" and worthless and good for nothing - so their self-interested response to that could be just to tighten policing, and concetrate on social control, law and order, state power. The natural conservative policy towards the poor is one of self-defence. A Christian ought not to be able to go along with that. We know that we are all sinful, all "broken" in a sense, and there is no special merit in being middle class or having money in the bank. We are all loved by God, all equal in God's sight, and all sinners.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I've cleared my PM inbox. Go ahead, Punk, make my day ... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Ken - essentially I'm in agreement. I wouldn't say that you're on target with the liberals, though, but I can see what you're getting at. 'It's all society's fault' is as much a liberal cop-out as 'It's all this Godless society's fault' is for conservative Christians.
Matt Black: I can understand your anger and frustration and believe you me, my heart goes out to the Reeves family and the loss of their five-generation old furniture business that had done no harm to anyone.
That's what annoys me about some of the more knee-jerk lefty or liberal reactions, that it was only the JD Sports and the big brand places that suffered. Of course it wasn't. And even if it was it doesn't put a Robin Hood gloss on what's happened.
As has often been said on this thread, the issues are more complex and need serious reflection all round.
What certainly doesn't help are Neo-Con bleatings from across the Pond - although I am sure that there are some US pundits and commentary that is more balanced, nuanced and written from a perspective that actually understands this country (or attempts to).
Sadly, my aunt in Australia says that the coverage over there has all been very shock-jock-ish and has tended to concentrate on the racial tensions. She was completely unaware, until I told her, that the looters were mixed - black, white and Asian youths.
I'm as hacked off about some of the comments on the blogs that ken has cited as much as the National Review garbage, but the reason I haven't flown into an apoplexy over them is that, whilst I don't agree with them, they are at least intelligently written (but still smug and self-righteous nevertheless). And also because they're homegrown and not ignorant comments from elsewhere ... if that doesn't sound too chauvinistic.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've cleared my PM inbox. Go ahead, Punk,
Sadly, my aunt in Australia says that the coverage over there has all been very shock-jock-ish and has tended to concentrate on the racial tensions. She was completely unaware, until I told her, that the looters were mixed - black, white and Asian youths.
Not very mixed 95% black, 5% white and not seen any asians involved at all.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
Having worked for Social Services for some years in a couple of different towns, I know full well that while he does use hyperbole in his article, the stories he includes are accurate. I know that the British taxpayer pays for 15 year old girls to move into a house (which they 'bid' for) with their baby and pay for it to be furnished, for the mother and baby to attend places like SureStart and all the rest. I know that the British taxpayer pays for heroin addicts to go on courses and have methadone replacement and for their children to remain in their care with costly social work input. I know that the British taxpayer funds so-called 'incentive payments' to individuals who have actually left care but who continue to have everything provided at tax payer's expense such as education costs and allowances until they are 21 years old. The story about a disabled boy being flown to the continent to have sex with a hooker featured on a Panorama programme a couple of years ago discussing the role of the state in Britain.
I thought his final quote was spot on.
I am sure you can tell tales from your time in social services but I hope I never have to look to you for sympathy and support.
You talk of the 15 yr old getting a house - why does she need that? Has she been rejected by family? And you add in backets that she 'bids' for it as if that were an indulgence. No it is the way things work now - when my parents got a council house they got the first suitable one that came when at the top of the list and were informed of it. Now those on the list have to keep a constant check on the availability of properties, keep on top of the process and compete with other bidders about who has the most 'need points'. And get a baby to get a house is not a highly successful method although of course some will get a poky flat yes, and some will need luxuries like a cot for the child and a cooker and apply for a social grant or loan.
You comment on the children of addicts going into care and the taxpayer having to pay for them - what alternative do you suggest? The workhouse? And how awful that we continue to offer support to those leaving care - those without supportive family to help the adjustment to adult life. And given the percentage of ex-care adults who end up in the prison system* I suggest that support rather than just being chucked out of the door and forgotten about would save the taxpayer in the long run.
Yes there are abuses, yes there are stupidities in any system but you lump the real needs in with those and appear to dismiss them all with bitterness. Have those 'wrong' cases blunted your compassion completely over the years?
*I know not all 'looked other' kids do but a much higher proportion than other types of childhood
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sadly, my aunt in Australia says that the coverage over there has all been very shock-jock-ish and has tended to concentrate on the racial tensions. She was completely unaware, until I told her, that the looters were mixed - black, white and Asian youths.
That's interesting, because the coverage I've seen here in Australia (from both commercial and public media outlets) was only really interested in the racial aspect for the first couple of days when everyone still thought it was all directly linked to the Mark Duggan incident. After it became clear that the riots were not directly related and that troublemakers had just used that incident as an opportunity for some free shopping, the coverage generally shifted to just reporting the events as they happened because nobody really knew what was going on.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
Having worked for Social Services for some years in a couple of different towns, I know full well that while he does use hyperbole in his article, the stories he includes are accurate. I know that the British taxpayer pays for 15 year old girls to move into a house (which they 'bid' for) with their baby and pay for it to be furnished, for the mother and baby to attend places like SureStart and all the rest. I know that the British taxpayer pays for heroin addicts to go on courses and have methadone replacement and for their children to remain in their care with costly social work input. I know that the British taxpayer funds so-called 'incentive payments' to individuals who have actually left care but who continue to have everything provided at tax payer's expense such as education costs and allowances until they are 21 years old. The story about a disabled boy being flown to the continent to have sex with a hooker featured on a Panorama programme a couple of years ago discussing the role of the state in Britain.
I thought his final quote was spot on.
I am sure you can tell tales from your time in social services but I hope I never have to look to you for sympathy and support.
You talk of the 15 yr old getting a house - why does she need that? Has she been rejected by family? And you add in backets that she 'bids' for it as if that were an indulgence. No it is the way things work now - when my parents got a council house they got the first suitable one that came when at the top of the list and were informed of it. Now those on the list have to keep a constant check on the availability of properties, keep on top of the process and compete with other bidders about who has the most 'need points'. And get a baby to get a house is not a highly successful method although of course some will get a poky flat yes, and some will need luxuries like a cot for the child and a cooker and apply for a social grant or loan.
You comment on the children of addicts going into care and the taxpayer having to pay for them - what alternative do you suggest? The workhouse? And how awful that we continue to offer support to those leaving care - those without supportive family to help the adjustment to adult life. And given the percentage of ex-care adults who end up in the prison system* I suggest that support rather than just being chucked out of the door and forgotten about would save the taxpayer in the long run.
Yes there are abuses, yes there are stupidities in any system but you lump the real needs in with those and appear to dismiss them all with bitterness. Have those 'wrong' cases blunted your compassion completely over the years?
*I know not all 'looked other' kids do but a much higher proportion than other types of childhood
Perhaps putting them "in care" would be a better option than leaving them in the care of their addicted parents. Either way you misread that post.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Aumbry, where did you get that statistic from please?
I wonder whether any statistics have come up yet? (E.g. from the composition of those convicted so far). Media here have desperately tried to veil and keep quiet about the racial aspect of the events, so it is hard to come by reliable facts. Prima facie it all certainly looked much like a racial issue to me.
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A martyr is someone living with a saint.
2509
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Having encountered all those tipping points previously, you should be as left-wing as I am.
That you are not is because when the rich and powerful take away your freedom and money, you envy them and want to be like them.
I'm sorry, but that comment is just disgraceful. "If you were as clever and noble as I am, you would share my political stance" is basically what it's saying.
The anti-"right" histrionics on this thread are just ridiculous. It's positively neurotic. Seriously, guys - listen to yourselves. As if people of good will can only be found at one end of the political spectrum...
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
As if people of good will can only be found at one end of the political spectrum...
No, not at either end. Mostly around the middle - I'd argue that it's left of the middle, but those slightly to the right of the middle aren't all bad.
But to argue that the only tipping point worth talking about in post-war UK is a few nutbars going on the loot is self-delusion of the highest order. Wake up, sheeple!
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
Here is another piece by Peter Oborne Oborne article
In many ways he is making a similar point to Mark Steyn though not quite as polemical.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Aumbry, where did you get that statistic from please?
I wonder whether any statistics have come up yet? (E.g. from the composition of those convicted so far). Media here have desperately tried to veil and keep quiet about the racial aspect of the events, so it is hard to come by reliable facts. Prima facie it all certainly looked much like a racial issue to me.
I haven't seen any statistics broken down in that way, but a look at the Met's suspects' photos shows a fairly broad cross section of the community - in terms of age as well as race. It suggests that those arguing there is a single issue at the root of the disorder may be telling us more about themselves than about the situation.
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pottage:
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Aumbry, where did you get that statistic from please?
I wonder whether any statistics have come up yet? (E.g. from the composition of those convicted so far). Media here have desperately tried to veil and keep quiet about the racial aspect of the events, so it is hard to come by reliable facts. Prima facie it all certainly looked much like a racial issue to me.
I haven't seen any statistics broken down in that way, but a look at the Met's suspects' photos shows a fairly broad cross section of the community - in terms of age as well as race. It suggests that those arguing there is a single issue at the root of the disorder may be telling us more about themselves than about the situation.
I don't think there is any doubt that race was a possible factor in the death of Mark Duggan (pointing a gun at an armed police officer being another possible factor) and definitely a factor in the subsequent protests over his death.
What is in doubt is the strength of the connection between that incident and the selfish criminal looting that took place later on. I would suggest that the two events are connected only by way of one allowing an opportunity for the other to start.
It actually sounds a lot like the Stanley Cup riot in Vancouver a few months ago. That wasn't about hockey fans, it was just regular garden-variety thugs using some other event as an excuse to cause mayhem.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity Killed
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've cleared my PM inbox. Go ahead, Punk,
Sadly, my aunt in Australia says that the coverage over there has all been very shock-jock-ish and has tended to concentrate on the racial tensions. She was completely unaware, until I told her, that the looters were mixed - black, white and Asian youths.
Not very mixed 95% black, 5% white and not seen any asians involved at all.
Aumbry, where did you get that statistic from please?
On the basis of 'not seen any asians involved', I suggest it is based on what Aumbry saw.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Saw this today in the Huffington Post. Thought it was quite a good summary.
Http://rs.gs./QL
Sorry, looks to me that someone with an axe to grind is grinding that axe. There's a lot of it about so I won't add my two-pence worth.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali (former Bishop of Rochester), Pastor Ade Omooba (founder and Director of Christian Concern) and other church leaders have had a letter published in the Sunday Telegraph, giving a Christian perspective on the riots.
The full text of the letter is reproduced below:
The new barbarism
SIR – We write as senior church leaders whose congregations have been affected by the recent violence on our streets.
What made Britain great was a sense of responsibility, of accountability to one another and, ultimately, to God. It is the loss of this moral framework that has led to the plunge into the new barbarism. We must take steps immediately to strengthen the family as a place for moral and spiritual formation where our children first learn about boundaries.
The churches are also committed to the task of supporting schools in their work of instilling the young with values derived from the timeless life-enhancing principles of the Bible.
What we instil in children today will determine in the future how they govern a nation, influence our policies and ultimately determine the quality of life in our communities.
We each make choices and decisions based on our value systems. Godlessness has only produced selfishness and greed. The well-tried Christian faith has given us hope in the past and can do so again now.
Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali
Former Bishop of Rochester and President of Oxtrad
Pastor Ade Omooba
Co-Founder, Christian Concern/Christian Legal Centre
Pastor Kofi Banful
Senior Pastor, Praise Chapel, Edgware, Middlesex
Rev Celia Apeagyei-Collins
Rehoboth Foundation, London E16
Rev Wale Hudson-Roberts
Founder African Development Forum, London
Pastor Lanre Sholola
Co-Founder, Christian Victory Group, London SW9
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713
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Posted
Mudfrog, you quote (at length) six clergy persons who rant on about God, the family, the Bible, the well-tried Christian faith (Yeah!) Godlessness, barbarism, selfishness and greed (Boo!) but not once do they mention sin.
Is sin the elephant in the room, which church leaders and others dare not mention for fear of rendering their argument offensive to the law-abiding (but no more or less sinful) population as a whole?
(btw, Britain was made great by trade, a navy and the will to use force; moral principles, Christian or not came a long way down the list.)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Mudfrog, you quote (at length) six clergy persons who rant on about God, the family, the Bible, the well-tried Christian faith (Yeah!) Godlessness, barbarism, selfishness and greed (Boo!) but not once do they mention sin.
Is sin the elephant in the room, which church leaders and others dare not mention for fear of rendering their argument offensive to the law-abiding (but no more or less sinful) population as a whole?
(btw, Britain was made great by trade, a navy and the will to use force; moral principles, Christian or not came a long way down the list.)
You are indeed quote right!
My text in last night's service was "Righteousness exalts a nation but sin is a disgrace to any people."
The truth of the matter is this:
Only righteousness can mend society - not policy, not economics, not even equality, morality or justice. Righteousness is not mere 'doing right', it is a divine quality where the character and nature of God himself is seen in the actions of his people. If we want the nation - any nation for that matter - to be exalted and rise above it's disgrace, we have to 'Do God' (to coin a phrase).
As far as sin is concerned, yes! We need to recognise that there is such a thing and that where people do wrong it is 'wrong'. For too long we have excused sin, winked at it, allowed people to get away with it. But deeper than that we have turned against God's will in this country - and while it's been true that hypocrisy and blatant disregard of God's law has always been a mark of society (and displayed openly by the ruling classes and industrialists), nowadays it is blatent. And sin is enshrined in the statute books as allowable.
Sin is that which offends God and there is a lot happening in this country that offends him and his righteousness.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Soror Magna
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# 9881
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Posted
Okay, I'm starting to assemble the pieces of the "War on Godlessness" from Mudfrog's posts:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The churches are also committed to the task of supporting schools in their work of instilling the young with values derived from the timeless life-enhancing principles of the Bible.
What we instil in children today will determine in the future how they govern a nation, influence our policies and ultimately determine the quality of life in our communities.
We each make choices and decisions based on our value systems. Godlessness has only produced selfishness and greed. The well-tried Christian faith has given us hope in the past and can do so again now.
I interpret this as an "offer" to provide (only) Christian religious education in all schools. There might also be some competition as to which flavour of Christianity will be taught. Which church(es) get(s) to set the curriculum? Will baptism and confirmation be available in schools for the un-baptized/confirmed children of Satan? This will probably be opposed or refused by a large segment of godless educators, parents and children. So I guess it can't just be an offer, but compulsory. For everyone.
But wait, there's more:
quote:
For too long we have excused sin, winked at it, allowed people to get away with it. But deeper than that we have turned against God's will in this country - and while it's been true that hypocrisy and blatant disregard of God's law has always been a mark of society (and displayed openly by the ruling classes and industrialists), nowadays it is blatent. And sin is enshrined in the statute books as allowable.
Sin is that which offends God and there is a lot happening in this country that offends him and his righteousness.
This suggests we need to look at our laws, and ensure that we have laws against all sins. So we will need laws against, for example, sloth. How does one write such a statute? What is the punishment for sloth? How much sloth is punishable? (I had a bit of a lie-in this morning ... don't narc on me.) Dietary laws: BIIIIIG changes there. Complete overhaul of the meat-packing industry, no more cheeseburgers or pepperoni pizza. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) And no more bacon. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif) The banks are going to plotz over that whole jubilee thing. Oooh, and the death penalty for kids that talk back to their parents, right?
On the bright side, there are lots of laws against lots of things that aren't sins, really. There's no cars in the Bible, for example, so we can probably toss all the traffic laws. Slavery could make a big comeback in these tough economic times. And hey, never mind swinging: polygamy's baaaaack! And lying with your maidservant - cheaper and easier than IVF!
Wait a sec, this is starting to sound familiar ... OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
You don't eradicate sin by laws. This is the whole point of why Christ came. If law could have done the job he needn't have bothered. Law can restrain some of the effects of sin - limit the damage if you like - but the only antidote to sin is a change of heart. Inculcating a better value system is a good second option (non Christians also have a moral compass) but there are many competing forces at work seeking to set the direction of our moral compasses.
During the C19 Welsh revival there were massive reductions in crime and anti social behaviour because people found something better to do with their lives, driven by a new fundamental motivation. In the end I'd say Jesus can provide that more powerfully than any one else, or any other system of ideas; but that's not to say there is no value in other moral approaches. We all bear the image of God which is expressed in our moral compass. But if you believe Jesus is God come into humanity as a human being it seems reasonable to take him as as good a starting point as you can get for finding a sound motivation to doing life well.
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Saw this today in the Huffington Post. Thought it was quite a good summary.
Http://rs.gs./QL
No, it's fantasy, made possible because someone hasn't read anything by Charles Dickens. I'd trust his account of Victorian England over that misty-eyed nostalgia any day. OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Mudfrog:
we have to 'Do God' (to coin a phrase).
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
On second thought, with all the Jesus is my boyfriend stuff, doing God is the next logical step in the relationship.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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redderfreak
Shipmate
# 15191
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by redderfreak:
One thing that concerns me is the disproportionate sentencing that appears to be going on. I read that someone got six months in prison for stealing some bottles of water. Dave Cameron, George Osborne and Boris Johnson's Bullingdon Club, by contrast, get off by just throwing money at people.Bullindon Club trash pub
I can see that pointing to root causes just seems to make people angry because it appears to be justifying the actions. However, history shows that petty crime goes up in recessions and is more commmon in poor areas. It doesn't make it OK, it's just a fact. If people are happy and content, they do less crime.
That doesn't quite hold water when you conmsider that a lot of the rioters were well off! What were they unhappy and discontented about? These weren't riots filled with starving people wanting bread! As far as I am aware when Debenhams was stripped of all its luxury goods, I don't think Tescos was cleared out of bread, milk and baby food!
You should ask the Bullingdon Club, they're well off and they riot. It's just that they and the bankers tend to get away with it without a lengthy prison sentence. That's the injustice I'm concerned about.
As Bob Dylan said, 'Steal a little and they put you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king.'
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You know I just couldn't make it by myself, I'm a little too blind to see
Posts: 287 | From: Exeter | Registered: Sep 2009
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Ethne Alba
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# 5804
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Posted
Harking back to 1966, "The Common Good" ( pre election document put out by the Catholic Bishops of England and Wales ).....speaks of a rift bewtween society and the individual and tell of 'structures of sin' within a society that treats people only as economic units.
This in no way excuses wrong behaviour. Sin is sin. But in pointing out sin at the bottom of the pile, it is incumbent upon us to point it out at the top and to examine our own hearts.
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
OliviaG on the Huffington Post : No, it's fantasy, made possible because someone hasn't read anything by Charles Dickens. I'd trust his account of Victorian England over that misty-eyed nostalgia any day. OliviaG
Have another read m'dear. The fact that there was much in queen V's Engalnd to despise doesn't mean there's nothing that bit of history can teach us. What did you make of the ideas of social capital for example? How could that principle be re-interpreted and reapplied today?
Be interested in your take.....
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Recognizing the importance of social capital means recognizing that diversity and multiculturalism aren't all they are cracked up to be. The first step to doing that would be admitting that a person can make the statement, "diversity and multiculturalism aren't all they are cracked up to be," and not be a racist. We aren't even ready to take that first step.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
I wonder whether any statistics have come up yet?
Not even an estimate of how many people were doing it. From news reports it could be anything from maybe 1,000 to 10,000 in London over a few days, but no-one offers any detail.
quote:
Prima facie it all certainly looked much like a racial issue to me.
Not so much from close up. Mostly black, but not all.
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The first step to doing that would be admitting that a person can make the statement, "diversity and multiculturalism aren't all they are cracked up to be," and not be a racist. We aren't even ready to take that first step.
That's because the fact is that loads of people who do talk like that are in fact racists. And even when they aren't the "multiculturalism" they attack is a straw man made up by the right for the purpose of propaganda.
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
What did you make of the ideas of social capital for example?
Obscurantist jargon concealing some more or less common-sense ideas that no-one much apart from a few far right-wingers and some extreme statists on both sides ever really disagreed with. (Maybe they have grown out of it.) Mixed up with some dubious bits of half-digested genetics. The jargon obviously spinning off the even sillier notion of "human capital", as if workers were nothing but machines to be invested in while profitable and scrapped when not.
Though I can't see fot the life of me what
quote:
Beeswax Altar meant by:
Recognizing the importance of social capital means recognizing that diversity and multiculturalism aren't all they are cracked up to be.
That is the exact opposite of one of the usual "social capital" arguments, which is that ethnic groups or extended families which are to some extent isolated and distinct from those around them can build up valuable reserves of trust - valuable in money terms as well as personal ones (that's why they call it "capital" they are putting money value on family and friendship). Typical examples would be trading networks among extended families or clans - whether its diamond dealing in Hatton Garden or selling vegetables in East Street Market.
One of the big news tropes of last week was various ethnically defined groups of people - usually young men of course - banding together to "defend our community". Most talked about were Turks and Kurds, but Sikhs also mentioned and the (very small-scale) example I saw were Tamils. A sort of media renvention of the Martial Races of the British Empire.
But the point is the "social capital" argument, based as it is around the supposed common interest of small groups who are or are pervieved to be close kin, ought to reinforce the kind of separate-but-equal communitarian version of multiculturalism that the right loves to accuse the left of promoting.
And that gets you into a tacky kind of ethnic communitarianism in which everybody has to be part of a "community" and the state deals with them not as individual citizens but as members of a community through usually self-selecting "Community Leaders". (A hateful notion. Who are my "Community Leaders"? The vicar? The head teacher of our local school? The elected councillors? The pub landlady?) Its another imperialistic hangover. The Millet system imported. The last gasp of Indirect Rule. And it implies heavily that the problem with all those poor black sods is they don't have a real "community". Presumably because they aren't civilised enough to join ours or clever enough to make their own.
If this is what "multiculturalism in fact usually meant then you would be right to attack it - but of course it isn't. And its this "social capital" idea plays right in to it.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
This interview (about: 10 mins) "the whites have become black" with historian David Starkey, broadcaster Dreda Mitchell and Owen Jones, author of 'Chavs', has caused quite a stir. I found it frustrating to listen to because David Starkey seems to be unable to express his ideas without implying black is somehow less than white. For me the most shocking thing he says is that if you listen to David Lammy on the radio he '"sounds white".
I think he's right about there being a certain type of 'gangsta' youth culture, which includes both black and white but it's unfortunate that he links it with Enoch Powell's infamous 'rivers of blood' speech.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Evening Paddy O. Adrian Holloway's comments - was he talking about homosexual lifesryle or same sex parents? The latter would make more sense in the overall context of your summary of his comments. There is a legitimate ongoing discussion about the relative merits of different models of parenting. I didn't heat his comments so just guessing here.
He was talking about the "homosexual lifestyle" a phrase that makes my blood boil. We don't have a particular "lifestyle" any more than heterosexuals... he meant that us evil homos are running around corrupting innocent people, leading them astray, planting wicked thoughts in their heads, making them think about whether that coat matches that dress... ha, I make a small funny but I'm not laughing about these fundamentalist morons.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Mudfrog:
we have to 'Do God' (to coin a phrase).
On second thought, with all the Jesus is my boyfriend stuff, doing God is the next logical step in the relationship.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
I had a friend tell me that she and her girlfriend invite ask Jesus to be with them when they're making love! ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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