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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: London Riots - The Root Cause
ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Frankly, right now I don't give a monkeys why these fuckers are doing it, just that they are stopped, caught and locked up for a very long time.

If y'all don't come to grips with why it happened and do something about it, you will just have it happen again and again and again.
Very true. But I can't resist pointing out that the death rate from these riots in London has been less than the *normal* murder rate in Seattle. Complete 100% vindication of British ideas of gun control. The looters were mostly armed with sticks. Had they had guns normal life would have been impossible round here. As it was, it wasn't. (There has to be a silver lining somewhere)

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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I'm not a huge fan of handguns in urban settings (I think guns have their place in the countryside), so if this was a "gotcha" it's wide of the mark. I will note however that when Seattle had its own riot in 1999, there were no deaths.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 56825 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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53 people died in the 1992 LA riots.

I heard some guy from the Guardian being interviewed on NPR this afternoon who said the problem was that the folks rioting have no stake in the system, and I think that might just sum it up in a way that the other political explanations don't, as it accounts for the "hey, this is the most fun we'll have all month, let's go grab some stuff" attitude of some rioters.

An anecdote about a friend of a friend during the 1992 riots: this guy was sorely in need of money, so parked his car in the heart of South Central LA, out front of a big box store being looted. Sure enough, it was torched, and he collected the insurance and paid off his bills.

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angelicum
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Frankly, right now I don't give a monkeys why these fuckers are doing it, just that they are stopped, caught and locked up for a very long time.

If y'all don't come to grips with why it happened and do something about it, you will just have it happen again and again and again.
I agree.

But I wonder if there is anything to be done about it, i.e. is this just a part of humanity's fallen condition? Are some people just bad eggs and given an opportunity will do these sort of acts? If they're poor, they will loot from their neighbourhood stores, and if they're in another position they'll just loot in a different manner - e.g. bankers, parlimentarians, etc.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Frankly, right now I don't give a monkeys why these fuckers are doing it, just that they are stopped, caught and locked up for a very long time.

If y'all don't come to grips with why it happened and do something about it, you will just have it happen again and again and again.
I agree.

But I wonder if there is anything to be done about it, i.e. is this just a part of humanity's fallen condition? Are some people just bad eggs and given an opportunity will do these sort of acts? If they're poor, they will loot from their neighbourhood stores, and if they're in another position they'll just loot in a different manner - e.g. bankers, parlimentarians, etc.

We all have the capacity to commit sin, no dispute there amongst Christians at any rate.

I believe you're spot-on, but why does society punish some harmful acts while condoning and even rewarding others?

IMNSHO condemnation or reward is meted out not according to whether an act benefits or harms society, but whether it is in the interest of the economic system. Whether it is sinful is a long way down the list of considerations.

YMMV!

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Frater_Frag
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# 2184

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The only solution to big riots like this one is to let the military solve the problem. Military do not ask them selfs questions about if its right or wrong to kill rioters, they will do as they are ordered to do! Myself, I belong to the swedish home guard, and I wouldn´t hesitate to kill rioters that refuses to stand down!

The problem is the politicians, traitors, quislings etc, all of them... They, and all the rioters should be brought down on their knees hands in pockets, and a bullet through their heads!

--------------------
Theological Dissident,
Fencing Instr :)

"Mammals have hair, whales are mammals. Therefore whales have hair... Shave the whales!"

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Prester John
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quote:
Originally posted by Frater_Frag:
The only solution to big riots like this one is to let the military solve the problem. Military do not ask them selfs questions about if its right or wrong to kill rioters, they will do as they are ordered to do! Myself, I belong to the swedish home guard, and I wouldn´t hesitate to kill rioters that refuses to stand down!

The problem is the politicians, traitors, quislings etc, all of them... They, and all the rioters should be brought down on their knees hands in pockets, and a bullet through their heads!

[Eek!] Perhaps this reads less bloodthirsty in Swedish.
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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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quote:
Originally posted by JSwift:
quote:
Originally posted by Frater_Frag:
...The problem is the politicians, traitors, quislings etc, all of them... They, and all the rioters should be brought down on their knees hands in pockets, and a bullet through their heads!

[Eek!] Perhaps this reads less bloodthirsty in Swedish.
*proper translation: "The problem is the politicians, traitors, quislings etc, all of them...They, and all the rioters should drop to their knees, hands in prayer and a blessing on their heads."
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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:
But I wonder if there is anything to be done about it, i.e. is this just a part of humanity's fallen condition? Are some people just bad eggs and given an opportunity will do these sort of acts? If they're poor, they will loot from their neighbourhood stores, and if they're in another position they'll just loot in a different manner - e.g. bankers, parlimentarians, etc.

The problem with this analysis is that, pace what some here have said, these riots don't happen every day. At least one analyst sees "a clear positive correlation between fiscal retrenchment and instability" over the last 90 years. I highly recommend people read this article.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Timothy the Obscure

Mostly Friendly
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quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:


A just society responds by punishing the guilty and fixing the circumstances.

AFZ

As Ammon Hennacy said, trying to create a society where it's easier for people to be good. Not that it's ever easy, but it's possible to make it harder. Or not.

--------------------
If you can find something everyone agrees on, it's wrong.
  - Mo Udall

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Alwyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Adrian1 (on p. 6 of this thread):
I think the point has been passed at which the root cause is really relevant.

I think root causes matter, even if the threat is ...

quote:
Originally posted by Adrian1 (on p. 6 of this thread):
... sheer mindless criminality ...

... because what you don't know - or wrongly believe - can hurt you. That can happen even when the threat is mindless. The Black Death was a mindless threat, but understanding that the cause wasn't 'bad air' could have made a difference. If you had a life-threatening injury or illness, it would make a difference whether you were in a hospital where the staff understood the germ theory of disease, or not.

quote:
Originally posted by Adrian1 (on p. 6 of this thread):
... being dealt a rough hand is no excuse for going out and damaging, or worse, destroying the property of people.

I agree. I also agree with AFZ's point that we should 'punish the guilty and fix the circumstances.' I wonder why people are so keen to emphasise that circumstances aren't excuses (I wonder, because this seems to state the obvious). Do you see discussion of circumstances as an attempt by liberals to prevent rioters from having to take responsibility for the harm that they've caused? Do you agree with Shaun Bailey that we're 'paying the price for liberalism'? Does it help if a left-winger like me says that I believe that people should be punished for their crimes during the riots?

As others have said, circumstances aren't excuses (except in extreme cases - if someone points a gun at you and tells you to break a window, that's different). People in bad circumstances still have choices, circumstances influence our choices - and we (through action by government, voluntary groups etc) can influence circumstances.

--------------------
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Stop the Traffik

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:

I don't think you ought to equate stealing and direct harm. Property rights are not natural rights

. I'm really quite shocked by this. Quite apart from this being a foundation of our democracy, I guess the guy who wrote 'Thou shalt not steal didn't get your memo.
And there I was thinking that the foundation of our democracy was one person one vote.
Property is not a natural right, whether or not you're shocked by it. If somebody sells you a car no physical facts about the car change. A forensic scientist maybe able to tell who has last been driving a car, but they can't tell whether that person owns the car. Property is not a natural right. It is a social right.

A pastoral society grazes its herds over a particular area. Does the fact that the society doesn't assign that area to anyone in particular mean that a homesteader can move in and declare it their property without violating the commandment not to steal?

In the UK rights of way take precedence over property rights. And why not?

That doesn't mean we oughtn't to respect other people's property rights, whatever they are. (How does 'thou shalt not steal' apply to appropriating a pastoral society's ) It just means that if we blithely assume that everyone shares our concept of property and therefore will apply enlightened self-interest in the same way that we do we will be disappointed. We need to appeal to genuine concern for other people.

quote:
quote:
Different social groups can have different attitudes to property. Secondly, I think that although stealing from a company is hurting people it is not clear that it is hurting anyone in particular.
Try telling that to Graham Reeves and other small business owners who have had their livelihoods destroyed by these thugs. If certain groups don't believe in property rights then they are wrong and if individuals in such groups act that out then they need to be told that by a lengthy custodial sentence
What part of 'stealing from a company is hurting people' did you not understand?
Ok - I do often use phrases like 'it is not clear' to mean 'I don't agree'. But in this case I did mean 'it is not clear'. My impression is that most children growing up have to have it explained to them that stealing from a company is not a victimless crime. It looks victimless because the harm is buffered by the company and spread over all the company employees. Reading posts by people like Ken who've been in the area, it appears that most of the looting has been from chains rather than small businesses. I was therefore talking about the general case.

--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:
quote:
I don't think you ought to equate stealing and direct harm. Property rights are not natural rights
Most people would dispute this I think. The California Constitution articulated them thusly: "defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy."
That may be how it is in California. I live in the UK. To be precise I live in Edinburgh. The feudal system was abolished around here about ten years ago.
Current property rights in the US descend largely from people who maintained successfully that the property rights of the previous society weren't the natural kind of property rights and therefore didn't apply.

quote:
quote:
Different social groups can have different attitudes to property.
And why should we adhere to the values of a group which accepts wanton stealing as permissible?
The question you asked isn't why we should adhere to their values. The question you asked is why they should adhere to our values (given that we are being selfish). We're sufficiently selfish that we don't want to give them any incentive to do so, and our bank directors have been sufficiently selfish that we can't pay the police to make them do so, and that rather leaves us with no choice in the matter.

--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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justlooking
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# 12079

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
My impression is that most children growing up have to have it explained to them that stealing from a company is not a victimless crime.

Similarly 'theft by finding' isn't an easy concept for children to grasp. This is what some of those arrested have been charged with. One accused has entered a not guilty plea despite being found in the street with property from a looted shop and a large amount of cash. He explained that he had found it and was taking it to the police station to hand it in. I expect the police will have to drop the charges unless they have evidence to prove otherwise.

AFAIK if anyone hands property they've found to the police and it remains unclaimed after whatever the time limit is, then the police hand it back to the person who found it and it's legally theirs.

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the giant cheeseburger
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# 10942

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quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
As Ammon Hennacy said, trying to create a society where it's easier for people to be good. Not that it's ever easy, but it's possible to make it harder. Or not.

Because it's so hard to not make the choice to go out and destroy/steal what belongs to others. I have no problem managing to not make that choice. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
Similarly 'theft by finding' isn't an easy concept for children to grasp. This is what some of those arrested have been charged with. One accused has entered a not guilty plea despite being found in the street with property from a looted shop and a large amount of cash. He explained that he had found it and was taking it to the police station to hand it in. I expect the police will have to drop the charges unless they have evidence to prove otherwise.

AFAIK if anyone hands property they've found to the police and it remains unclaimed after whatever the time limit is, then the police hand it back to the person who found it and it's legally theirs.

What a twat, being a smartarse will get him in far bigger trouble than pleading guilty would have. I wonder what CCTV images will revel, or what a full police search of his house would reveal if serial numbers of every electronic item were checked? Companies like Sony, Apple and so on do maintain serial number databases of items which have been reported stolen by their owners, so the truth will out, even if he's not silly enough to use some stolen device while connected to the internet.

--------------------
If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?

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An die Freude
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# 14794

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quote:
Originally posted by JSwift:
quote:
Originally posted by Frater_Frag:
The only solution to big riots like this one is to let the military solve the problem. Military do not ask them selfs questions about if its right or wrong to kill rioters, they will do as they are ordered to do! Myself, I belong to the swedish home guard, and I wouldn´t hesitate to kill rioters that refuses to stand down!

The problem is the politicians, traitors, quislings etc, all of them... They, and all the rioters should be brought down on their knees hands in pockets, and a bullet through their heads!

[Eek!] Perhaps this reads less bloodthirsty in Swedish.
It doesn't.

Frater Frag, if you're a sympathizer of the likes of Anders Breivik, I think you are a greater traitor of the Scandinavian culture that has for 200 years sought peaceful solutions to conflicts and change through democratic measures.

If you're not a Breivik sympathizer, which I hope and assume, I find it shockingly insensitive to post such a grim message in times of extreme political violence such as the events in Norway and the bombing in Stockholm 8 months ago.

But I digress.

--------------------
"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Previously JFH

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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I'm late to this as I've been on holiday in London - and had as good a time as ever. Central, 'tourist' London was, of course, unaffected other than by the constant awareness of police vans hurtling across Westminster Bridge or hither and yon to some trouble-spot or other. The police seemed good humoured and were posing for tourist photos and basking in some goodwill and attention from the general public - which is only to be expected.

I did see some of the damage up at Chalk Farm - we wandered up the road from Campden Market - and it wasn't pretty. The market stall owners and small shop keepers were busily barricading and shuttering their property.

I think Ken's right that it was mostly the big chains that were targeted - they've got more to steal - but the fears and concern of the small shopkeepers was palpable. In Liverpool laundrettes and corner shops were trashed. This wasn't some anti-capitalist uprising but a lot more to do with opportunism and thuggery - yet there will, of course, be underlying socio-economic and societal issues.

The police I spoke to all felt that the response had been far too soft and needed to be heavier - that the answer wasn't rubber bullets and water cannon but to grab hold of the ringleaders and 'rough them up a bit' in order to deter the others. Ok, some bravado there, but they clearly felt frustrated that they could not intervene more appropriately, as they say it, for fear of being filmed or losing their job. They didn't feel the 'ante' would need to be lifted that much and only in cases where life and property was seriously at risk.

More broadly - what do we need to do? Well, all sorts of underlying social causes to tackle ... everything from parenting to job prospects, Grand Theft Auto videos to yoof culture and gangsta chic ... a whole plethora of things and no one single, simple cause.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:


More broadly - what do we need to do? Well, all sorts of underlying social causes to tackle ... everything from parenting to job prospects, Grand Theft Auto videos to yoof culture and gangsta chic ...

If children know right from wrong and are brought up to care, no amount of playing Grand Theft Auto or listening to Gangsta rap will change that.

My two were totally addicted to that game aged 14. They are now law abiding, hard working young men and just as appalled by these criminal actions as you or I.

--------------------
Gypsy - Guide Dog puppy

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Chesterbelloc

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# 3128

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Property is not a natural right, whether or not you're shocked by it.

Any Catholic should be shocked by it. The Church has pretty much always considered property (justly acquired) to be a natural right. It's been a fundamental point of Catholic Social doctrine much emphasised since Communism and other such theories have been doing the rounds.

Quoth Pius X:
quote:
Private property is under all circumstances, be it the fruit of labour or acquired by conveyance or donation, a natural right, and everybody may make such reasonable disposal of it as he thinks fit.


--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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I think people are talking about slightly different property rights. I think what Dafyd means is that to acquire property (above and beyond basic necessities of life) isn't a natural right. I think what some others mean is that if you do have property, then it is a natural right to expect that that property will not be taken from you by theft and violence.

Even so, Dafyd, if you deny that "property" is a natural right, I don't think you can deny that food, clothing and shelter are natural rights: and those are precisely what people have been deprived of, having their homes burned to the ground around them.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
"Why should I pass up the chance of all this free stuff?" There's political idealism for you.

That sounds like MPs responses to the Expenses scandal.
It does indeed. And if the disturbances had been directed at those self-seeking bastards, I could believe it was real protest, real politics. But the looters have destroyed the very people, businesses and institutions who can actually make a difference to their lives and communities, for the sake of what? Not a new world, not a better society: no, just a new pair of trainers.
I agree completely. In fact, I was saying to my wife only last night that I'd actually feel better about things if these riots were like previous ones - running battles with the police, a genuine message being sent from the rioters to society, a genuine expression of grievance. But there's none of that. The rioters are actively trying to avoid the police - their motivation is no more than to break in the shop windows, get as much loot out as they can, and then scarper before the "feds" show up. Their message is no more than "we want this stuff and we're going to take it".

I wish this was political, because if it was something could actually be done about it - there would be a genuine grievance to settle or need to provide. But it's not. It's the end point of a culture of apathy and avarice that doesn't care about facilities, or education, or opportunities, it just cares about getting what you can while the getting's good. And how the hell do you fix that? What good is educating someone who doesn't care about learning? What good are job opportunities to someone who doesn't care about working?

How can you get people to actually give a shit?

--------------------
That one last shot's a permanent vacation
and how high can you fly with broken wings?
Life's a journey, not a destination
and you just can't tell just what tomorrow brings.

Posts: 27700 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
justlooking
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# 12079

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quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
Similarly 'theft by finding' isn't an easy concept for children to grasp. This is what some of those arrested have been charged with. One accused has entered a not guilty plea despite being found in the street with property from a looted shop and a large amount of cash. He explained that he had found it and was taking it to the police station to hand it in. I expect the police will have to drop the charges unless they have evidence to prove otherwise.

AFAIK if anyone hands property they've found to the police and it remains unclaimed after whatever the time limit is, then the police hand it back to the person who found it and it's legally theirs.

What a twat, being a smartarse will get him in far bigger trouble than pleading guilty would have. I wonder what CCTV images will revel, or what a full police search of his house would reveal if serial numbers of every electronic item were checked? Companies like Sony, Apple and so on do maintain serial number databases of items which have been reported stolen by their owners, so the truth will out, even if he's not silly enough to use some stolen device while connected to the internet. [/QB]
He may well be a twat but it will be for the police to prove that this particular twat stole the property and did not simply find what some other twat had stolen. Even if they search his house and find other stolen property it won't prove that he stole what he was found with.
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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's the end point of a culture of apathy and avarice that doesn't care about facilities, or education, or opportunities, it just cares about getting what you can while the getting's good. And how the hell do you fix that? What good is educating someone who doesn't care about learning? What good are job opportunities to someone who doesn't care about working?

How can you get people to actually give a shit?

I agree 100%

But giving up isn't the answer.

Some poor parenting is due to ignorance - not apathy. Parents defend their children because they think that's how to love them. It isn't - and they can be taught that by people they trust.

--------------------
Gypsy - Guide Dog puppy

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Squibs
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# 14408

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Was there any major trouble last night? Birmingham is apparently a bit of a tinderbox since the murders.
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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I agree completely. In fact, I was saying to my wife only last night that I'd actually feel better about things if these riots were like previous ones - running battles with the police, a genuine message being sent from the rioters to society, a genuine expression of grievance. But there's none of that. The rioters are actively trying to avoid the police - their motivation is no more than to break in the shop windows, get as much loot out as they can, and then scarper before the "feds" show up. Their message is no more than "we want this stuff and we're going to take it".

I wish this was political, because if it was something could actually be done about it - there would be a genuine grievance to settle or need to provide. But it's not. It's the end point of a culture of apathy and avarice that doesn't care about facilities, or education, or opportunities, it just cares about getting what you can while the getting's good. And how the hell do you fix that? What good is educating someone who doesn't care about learning? What good are job opportunities to someone who doesn't care about working?

How can you get people to actually give a shit?

Bizarrely, the most coherent politics in the whole thing hasn't come from the looters ("I don't think "I don't give a shit" really counts as politics), or from the professional politicians with their barely articulate clichés. If there's politics here at all, I think it's come from the broom-waving cleanup volunteers. They seem to be the ones who, against the odds, are prepared to assert and build community, both in the human and built environments. To me, they seem to be the ones whose claim of "this city is ours" has most validity. And what is politics in its most basic form, but the art of living in community?
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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
Was there any major trouble last night? Birmingham is apparently a bit of a tinderbox since the murders.

Not so much:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/11/uk-riots-birmingham-muslim-sikhs

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Daron
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I am a Christian who believes that Jesus is the only way to salvation. However, I would stand side by side with the people of other religions seen in that video, I would say Amen to their prayers, and I work with them wholeheartedly for the prosperity of the city. Interesting times indeed.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
Was there any major trouble last night? Birmingham is apparently a bit of a tinderbox since the murders.

Nope, all quiet due to a combination of the dead men's families calling for no reprisals, a metric shitload of police on duty and heavy rain.

It probably helps that they've already made an arrest for the three murders.

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
n my experience in Lambeth in the late 1980's - yes without any doubt.

Lets get this straight. You think that your experience from thirty years ago is more relevant to what happened this week than what hundreds of people who were actually there saw and reported?

Can we have your crystal ball please? We obviously need it.

As someone who lived in Lambeth until 3 years ago I think Exclamation mark is right. There are tensions between Asian and Black residents although Lambeth is quite a peaceful place compared to some other parts of London and does not have a particularly large asian population. I can see it coming that there will be no-go areas for young blacks in some places where there are large asian communities particularly in North and East London.
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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:
Originally posted by JSwift:
quote:
Originally posted by Frater_Frag:
The only solution to big riots like this one is to let the military solve the problem. Military do not ask them selfs questions about if its right or wrong to kill rioters, they will do as they are ordered to do! Myself, I belong to the swedish home guard, and I wouldn´t hesitate to kill rioters that refuses to stand down!

The problem is the politicians, traitors, quislings etc, all of them... They, and all the rioters should be brought down on their knees hands in pockets, and a bullet through their heads!

[Eek!] Perhaps this reads less bloodthirsty in Swedish.
It doesn't.

Frater Frag, if you're a sympathizer of the likes of Anders Breivik, I think you are a greater traitor of the Scandinavian culture that has for 200 years sought peaceful solutions to conflicts and change through democratic measures.

If you're not a Breivik sympathizer, which I hope and assume, I find it shockingly insensitive to post such a grim message in times of extreme political violence such as the events in Norway and the bombing in Stockholm 8 months ago.

But I digress.

I am not sure that Scandinavia in the last 200 years hasn't had extreme political violence. What about the shootings of the Adalen Workers and the assassination of Olav Palme? Go back 350 years and the Swedes were some of the worst warmongers in Europe.
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Boogie

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Right at the beginning of all this my first thought was 'The police need to be able to demand that these looters remove their hoodies and masks'

There is no way people should be allowed to keep their faces covered in these sorts of circumstances.

Now they will be able to -

quote:
The police will have new powers to order people to remove facemasks. "On facemasks, currently [the police] can only remove these in a specific geographical location and for a limited time," Cameron said. "So I can announce today that we are going to give the police the discretion to remove face coverings under any circumstances where there is reasonable suspicion that they are related to criminal activity."


[ 11. August 2011, 12:01: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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Helen-Eva
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

Now they will be able to -

quote:
The police will have new powers to order people to remove facemasks. "On facemasks, currently [the police] can only remove these in a specific geographical location and for a limited time," Cameron said. "So I can announce today that we are going to give the police the discretion to remove face coverings under any circumstances where there is reasonable suspicion that they are related to criminal activity."

I assume this includes veils and if it does it could cause major trouble if it's not used fairly.
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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

Now they will be able to -

quote:
The police will have new powers to order people to remove facemasks. "On facemasks, currently [the police] can only remove these in a specific geographical location and for a limited time," Cameron said. "So I can announce today that we are going to give the police the discretion to remove face coverings under any circumstances where there is reasonable suspicion that they are related to criminal activity."

I assume this includes veils and if it does it could cause major trouble if it's not used fairly.
If people are wearing hijabs or veils and causing no trouble why should the police need to see their faces?

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If people are wearing hijabs or veils and causing no trouble why should the police need to see their faces?

Works in theory, but given the well-documented phenomenon of police stopping people for "driving while black", the possibility of it leading to them stopping people for "walking while veiled" is not appealing.

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That one last shot's a permanent vacation
and how high can you fly with broken wings?
Life's a journey, not a destination
and you just can't tell just what tomorrow brings.

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Adeodatus
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I didn't see any veiled Muslim women on the footage of the looting. I did see some weeping for loss of their homes, however.
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the giant cheeseburger
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So perhaps during there should be the option for a person reasonably asked to identify themselves to instead be arrested and identify themselves to a female officer back at the station.

There was a recent incident in Australia where an Islamic woman made a false accusation against a police officer but got off because she was veiled and not identifiable. This kind of abuse of religious freedom is very concerning, and makes the responsibility to be identifiable on request important.

[ 11. August 2011, 13:09: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]

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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?

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Adeodatus
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I must admit I'm a bit disappointed with the House of Commons debate on the subject. (Can one be predictably disappointed? If so, I am.) The BBC's rolling text suggests it has focussed very heavily on policing. And I think the problem with, essentially, discussing how hard you're going to hit back, is that it communicates that you're scared.

Perhaps the professional politicians are scared. Perhaps they should be. But the contrast between them and the people I mentioned earlier is startling - those who refuse to be "victims", those who quietly assert their ownership of the community, those like Tariq Jahan who in the chaos are beacons of grace and dignity.

Perhaps it's actually things like grace and dignity that scare the politicians. Those are powerful things. And I don't believe they're on the syllabus of many courses in economics or politics.

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Jessie Phillips
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I don't know how it's playing out there in UK, but here in LA, the two significant riots we had only further impoverished desperately poor inner-city communities, wealthy privileged suburbanites were not significantly impacted. Similarly, "cutters" are obviously hurting mostly themselves.

As I understand it, "cutters" are thought to be motivated by a need to have some sort of physical expression of their inner pain/turmoil. So perhaps riots could be seen as similar sorts of exercises (not to discount, again, the opportunists who use a riot for their own economic and/or political gain)

Brave of you to say so. And I think you've got a good point.

However, there's one thing about self-injury that almost everyone knows, but which it is highly politically incorrect to say.

Now, I'm not denying that there are loads of people who take their frustrations out on themselves from time to time, and then become instantly embarrassed about the fact that they have done it, and then try to cover up their injuries with uncomfortable clothing accessories that they would not otherwise normally wear.

But at the same time, when someone brashly sports an injury that they don't seem to care about - it scares us. Why? Because it subliminally sends the message that they're not bothered about the risk of injury to themselves that might arise from getting into a fight. So the rest of us have got to be bloody careful around that person, and make sure that we don't get on the wrong side of them, for the sake of our own safety.

Whether the injury came about as a result of a fight, or was self-inflicted, is irrelevant.

So scars can act as trophies. And the desire to sport such trophies can be a motive for violence, both against yourself, and against other people, and animals, and property.

In other words, one of the reasons why people riot is because they want to be seen to be powerful. This might explain why not all of the rioters covered their faces with scarves.

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by jrrt01:
The estimated cost of damage from looting and riots is around £100 million so far.

So rather less than one tenth of one percent of what the bankers took off us in 2008/9. And when I say "took" I mean we paid it to them from our taxes and by increasing our debt.

Or about a fifth of a percent of the damage from the London stock exchange fall of the last two weeks.

You make the riots sound like an absolute bargain!

However, I think this merely illustrates the fallacy of assuming that loss and damage can only be measured in economic terms - or even that economic measurements are the most important measurements.

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Jessie Phillips
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# 13048

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I think people are talking about slightly different property rights. I think what Dafyd means is that to acquire property (above and beyond basic necessities of life) isn't a natural right. I think what some others mean is that if you do have property, then it is a natural right to expect that that property will not be taken from you by theft and violence.

I'm slightly puzzled by this notion of "natural" rights. To my way of thinking, a "right" can only exist if there is an enforcement mechanism to back it up. If there is no enforcement mechanism, then any talk about the "right" is simply a game of pointless finger-wagging.

Since there is no "natural" enforcement so to speak of (leaving aside any afterlife, posterity and eschatology theories for a moment), then I can't see how there can be any "natural" rights. Can someone explain it a bit better please?

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Right at the beginning of all this my first thought was 'The police need to be able to demand that these looters remove their hoodies and masks'

There is no way people should be allowed to keep their faces covered in these sorts of circumstances.

Well, duh. If a police officer is able to get into close enough contact with a rioter so as to force them to remove their hoody or mask - then they might as well arrest them for rioting. If the police are operationally incapable of arresting someone for rioting or looting, then it's unlikely that they'll be in a position to enforce mask removal either.

The idea that rioters should be permitted to carry on rioting, as long as they don't wear face masks while they're doing it, strikes me as rather bizarre.

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
There was a recent incident in Australia where an Islamic woman made a false accusation against a police officer but got off because she was veiled and not identifiable. This kind of abuse of religious freedom is very concerning, and makes the responsibility to be identifiable on request important.

If the woman was not identifiable, then how do you know whether she was Islamic or not?
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Og: Thread Killer
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
fuck me, you can't have a single bloody sensible conversation on this board without dicks jumping to ridiculous conclusions and making idiotic insinuations out of what you say rather than stopping for just a short moment to actually think about it

I find people think it through and then say you're wrong based on their thoughts. If you want really bad critiques of ideas, go to newspaper internet forums.

That, and to be honest, your first bit is not the most flowing of reads....and I'm sympathetic to your view.

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Oh well...

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irish_lord99
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If people are wearing hijabs or veils and causing no trouble why should the police need to see their faces?

Works in theory, but given the well-documented phenomenon of police stopping people for "driving while black", the possibility of it leading to them stopping people for "walking while veiled" is not appealing.
While I completely agree with Marvin here, it seems to me that this is a problem with the police, not the veiled women. Sounds like another case of the police's prejudice taking precedence over a minority's rights... and we wonder why the situation erupted in the first place?

That said, a simple solution might be, have a lady police officer on hand at all times to deal with it.

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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
You make the riots sound like an absolute bargain!

However, I think this merely illustrates the fallacy of assuming that loss and damage can only be measured in economic terms - or even that economic measurements are the most important measurements.

Sure, but then the financial crisis had more than just a simply economic impact.
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Daron
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If people are wearing hijabs or veils and causing no trouble why should the police need to see their faces?

Works in theory, but given the well-documented phenomenon of police stopping people for "driving while black", the possibility of it leading to them stopping people for "walking while veiled" is not appealing.
Even if someone refuses a direct order to remove their face covering when directly or indirectly involved in a spot of Tottenham Shopping?

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Marvin the Martian

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# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
it seems to me that this is a problem with the police, not the veiled women.

Quite so.

quote:
That said, a simple solution might be, have a lady police officer on hand at all times to deal with it.
That wouldn't solve the problem to which I refer. If any law made its way onto the books giving the police powers to remove face coverings if the person/s are suspected of criminal behaviour it would not take long before it morphed into an assumption that covering ones face is an indicator of criminal intent.

--------------------
That one last shot's a permanent vacation
and how high can you fly with broken wings?
Life's a journey, not a destination
and you just can't tell just what tomorrow brings.

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Og: Thread Killer
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

Now they will be able to -

quote:
The police will have new powers to order people to remove facemasks. "On facemasks, currently [the police] can only remove these in a specific geographical location and for a limited time," Cameron said. "So I can announce today that we are going to give the police the discretion to remove face coverings under any circumstances where there is reasonable suspicion that they are related to criminal activity."

I assume this includes veils and if it does it could cause major trouble if it's not used fairly.
If people are wearing hijabs or veils and causing no trouble why should the police need to see their faces?
Substitue veil with black and you'll see why the police can't be trusted to not stereotype.

Typical political response on the Tory part but not well thought through.

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Oh well...

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irish_lord99
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
That wouldn't solve the problem to which I refer. If any law made its way onto the books giving the police powers to remove face coverings if the person/s are suspected of criminal behaviour it would not take long before it morphed into an assumption that covering ones face is an indicator of criminal intent.

Ah, I see... well surely the police can tell the difference? Are there a lot of these thugs running around in burqas?

You're probably right though, in the end it would be abused or misused. [Disappointed]

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Daron
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
it seems to me that this is a problem with the police, not the veiled women.

Quite so.

quote:
That said, a simple solution might be, have a lady police officer on hand at all times to deal with it.
That wouldn't solve the problem to which I refer. If any law made its way onto the books giving the police powers to remove face coverings if the person/s are suspected of criminal behaviour it would not take long before it morphed into an assumption that covering ones face is an indicator of criminal intent.

What!? Surely covering ones face in the context of rampant daylight robbery is an indicator of criminal intent.

--------------------
Each strand of sorrow has a place, within this tapestry of grace
So through the trials I choose to say, Your perfect will in your perfect way

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Marvin the Martian

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# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Ah, I see... well surely the police can tell the difference?

This is the same police that once pulled over Bishop John Sentamu because he happened to be driving a rather nice car while also being black, right?

If they can't tell the difference between a Bishop and a joyrider I don't hold out much hope of them telling the difference in this instance either.

--------------------
That one last shot's a permanent vacation
and how high can you fly with broken wings?
Life's a journey, not a destination
and you just can't tell just what tomorrow brings.

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the giant cheeseburger
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quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
If the woman was not identifiable, then how do you know whether she was Islamic or not?

Excuse me, the exact issue was that she was veiled when she lodged the statement with the false allegation about the police officer. This enabled the conviction to be rescinded on appeal as it was somehow argued they couldn't be 500% sure that it really was her who made the statutory declaration in her name.

It is well known that the young woman involved is a Muslim convert.

It was an own goal though. The police union was rightfully furious at the false allegation and death threats their member had faced and threatened strike action. The NSW Parliament has since moved legislation to class refusing to remove a face covering (irrespective of gender or religious affiliation) when requested from a police officer as resisting lawful arrest. This is a sensible approach that stops well short of banning face coverings in public places.

[ 11. August 2011, 14:08: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]

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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?

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Daron
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Ah, I see... well surely the police can tell the difference?

This is the same police that once pulled over Bishop John Sentamu because he happened to be driving a rather nice car while also being black, right?

If they can't tell the difference between a Bishop and a joyrider I don't hold out much hope of them telling the difference in this instance either.

There's a qualitative difference between being stopped for driving a car while black and a black man being arrested for driving a piece of scaffolding through a shop window.

[ 11. August 2011, 14:09: Message edited by: Daron ]

--------------------
Each strand of sorrow has a place, within this tapestry of grace
So through the trials I choose to say, Your perfect will in your perfect way

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