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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: NewFrontiers after Terry Virgo
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
Yo Lep. I was going to add a ps but you said it for me (!), The big danger in NF churches (and I have seen this) is leaders who don't take their own failings seriously, and being in a peer group that isn't characterised by robust, positive mutual challenge.
But the risk isn't universal. I know well one NF church where the leaders are very open about their own struggles, what they are learning about their personal motivations and insecurities, and modelling the value of being in supportive and mutually accountable relationships.
I'll add your comments to my list and thanks again.....
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
But the risk isn't universal. I know well one NF church where the leaders are very open about their own struggles, what they are learning about their personal motivations and insecurities, and modelling the value of being in supportive and mutually accountable relationships.
I'll add your comments to my list and thanks again.....
That's very gracious of you.
It's good to hear that there are good models out there - and I'm not surprised because I have great respect for NF as a Gospel movement. The upside of their theology is that leaders tend to just see vision and get on with it - something that us more traditional free churches struggle with.
But I think what I'm saying is that I do see a direct theological link between Terry's rather idiosyncratic doctrine of sanctification and the approach to leadership, that won't just be sorted by more accountable structures. (Although they always help)
Anyway I'm whittering now - thank you for being so open to what others have to say.
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
If you're in an NF church you will always hear both dimensions addressed - our relationship to sin, and what we do when we fall. I think where TV is coming from is that he's come across a lot of believers trapped in a cycle of I sin, I feel guilty as hell as a result, so I sin more....
I think that the 'cycle of sin' is a fairly universal scenario - it just so happens that some cycles are a lot less visible and/or socially/religiously acceptable.
This is why Luther uses the terminology of 'bondage of the will' rather than free vs non-free. As Christians, our relationship to sin is similar to a recovering alcoholic's relationship to drink - who is only one drink away from falling off the wagon again.
It seems to me that exhortation to do better is more likely to end in despair - as the message becomes one of the gap between where you are and where you should be.
Here's a shorter take on Forde:
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/gospel-broken/
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As far as the Derren Brown cold-reading thing goes ... he's simply out to show how easy it is to create an environment where there's a semblance of these sort of things happening. I know that from my own experience during the 'Toronto' thing. I quickly realised how easy it was to line people up and create an expectation that they'd all fall over, or quake, laugh or whatever else. It's easy. All you need are the right cues.
Yeah, it was purely explanatory rather than being something staged (like some of his other efforts). There are other similar resources floating around which are a little older and a little dated - the documentary on Marjoe Gortner for instance (you can probably find the whole film on youtube if you dig around a little).
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
...a teal crippler...
I so much want this to be amildly unpleasant idiomatic reference to cute little ducks rather than a simple miskey.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
Ken... ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Twangist, before you write "I"m sorry if..." again, you could do with reading the thread The Proper Apology.
Have you been talking to my wife? I do struggle with trying to self-justify more than is healthy - sorry again.
quote:
Ramarius, do you wist not that Twangist's "quote" anointing seems to have left you?
That's the trouble with these Wimberish appointings - no ontological change!
OK more seriously -'simul justus et peccator'.
My take on Terry's article is that he is trying to combat "miserable worm" theology YMMV.
I think that pastorally the reminder that you don't "have" to sin can reinforce your will to resist temptation. Also dwelling (meditating) on the fact that in Christ you are a saint etc. does lead to more of an enjoying of God's Grace in the Gospel.
Having said that to my mind he is presenting one side of the truth (not the whole truth) and doing so with a "preaching" sort of style that, as dear Gamaliel might say, tends to the "over-egging" end of the spectrum.
Plenty of NFers will concede the reality of sin in the life of the believer: I've recently heard Terrys son Joel do so.;I'm currently reading this book by a NF pastor who is very honest about his own sin.
In my yoof I read a lot of J.I. Packer and so 'simul justus et peccator' is very much part of the way I think, and if any preacher asks "are you a saint or a sinner" my gut reaction is to answer "both". So I may be reading Terry through these lenses YMMV.
quote:
There was also the claim that Calvin and the Puritans would have gone along with this.
Nope - just a single quote from Bunyan (a puritan).
On the provocation thing: In the early days of my current church we set up a ministry to ex-offenders, we were a pretty small group at the time so it was a quite a stretch. At that time one of the pastors from the local (and large) Baptist flagship expressed his dissatisfaction with his own "social action committee" which had talked a lot and not done very much when contrasted with ourselves. That's being a godly provocation - "if they can do it, then ...."
Please note - I'm not blowing our trumpet (I know the end of the story). I'm just trying to illustrate how I understand the term - and there are plenty of other churches and Xtians (you guys for a start) who can and should be a godly provocation to me and to NF churches.
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JJ
SDG
blog
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
quote:
There was also the claim that Calvin and the Puritans would have gone along with this.
Nope - just a single quote from Bunyan (a puritan).
Actually Calvin was mentioned in of the other articles, I tried briefly to see if I could dig it up without much luck.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
Have you been talking to my wife?
No, learning from mine (or trying to) for 26+ years...
Talking of whom, this is how things went when she tried to engage Terry in debate one morning over breakfast as to his view of the flesh meaning exactly that, the body as opposed to the intellect.
Leprechaun said just now quote:
I do see a direct theological link between Terry's rather idiosyncratic doctrine of sanctification and the approach to leadership, that won't just be sorted by more accountable structures.
In the light of the exchange Gracie relates back then, what happened to us thereafter, and the latest developments for us, I think she absolutely nailed it (and him), albeit unwittingly.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
Euty, on Terry's remark to Mrs E I can't find the emoticons for condescending evasion....
In the sort of professional environment I work in you'd never get away with that sort of remark even down the pub after hours.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
But I think what I'm saying is that I do see a direct theological link between Terry's rather idiosyncratic doctrine of sanctification and the approach to leadership, that won't just be sorted by more accountable structures. (Although they always help)
On the wider point, I think all sorts of things are affected by the doctrine of sanctification. There are various axes around which this can be varied - synergism vs monergism, perfectionism vs non-perfectionism etc - and that isn't even exhaustive.
But the view on, say, cultural transformation and whether some forms of it are even possible is heavily dependent on how sanctification is said to work. Ditto the aims of preaching, ditto worship, ditto sacraments and their aims - and again that isn't even exhaustive.
Perhaps it comes down to this, tinkering with the doctrine of sanctification changes ones understanding of anthropology as it applies to Christians. There are all sorts of second order effects that flow from this (even bearing in mind that people are sometimes inconsistent in their application of doctrine).
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
But the view on, say, cultural transformation and whether some forms of it are even possible is heavily dependent on how sanctification is said to work.
I have to heartily agree! One of the things I've seen locally is that the members of the local NF branch have 'arrived', for lack of a better word, when they start acting more Western. For example, when they abandon the respectful, quiet worship of their culture and start dancing in the aisles (or in the case of the Armenians, when they stop shedding heartfelt tears of humility during prayer) then they've come into 'true worship.'
That's when God has 'really touched them/ baptized them in the Holy Spirit.'
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think that's a very good point, Irish ...
I well remember cringing when an 'apostle' in the set-up I belonged to (not dissimilar to New Frontiers) described a meeting he'd led in Austria (or Southern Germany, I forget which) where he'd got a bunch of people who'd left the Lutheran Church to join a group he was overseeing. He took great delight in describing how he'd got them to behave in a way that struck me as more fitting for Anglophone Pentecostals than anything they would have been used to from their own tradition. It was if their Lutheran heritage were of no value.
Committed restorationist though I was at that time, I remember being very cross and quite perturbed ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I've been dipping into this thread off and on for weeks, so forgive me if I missed this bit of info: who declared Terry Virgo an Apostle? In the early church, the conduct of which they want to "restore" to the modern church, Jesus Christ did so while living (well, except for Judas' replacement). Then after the Resurrection he called Paul in a rather spectacular fashion before believers and non-believers. Later Apostles in that church were chosen by the original Apostles, I believe. Something that became apostolic succession.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I've been dipping into this thread off and on for weeks, so forgive me if I missed this bit of info: who declared Terry Virgo an Apostle?
I read an interview with TV one time where he talked a bit about it. Basically he was doing church planting with such apparent success that some people around him started saying that he was 'doing an apostolic work.' I don't know if there's more to it than that.
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
In the early church, the conduct of which they want to "restore" to the modern church, Jesus Christ did so while living (well, except for Judas' replacement). Then after the Resurrection he called Paul in a rather spectacular fashion before believers and non-believers. Later Apostles in that church were chosen by the original Apostles, I believe. Something that became apostolic succession.
My understanding is that after the original Apostles died off, their disciples were not called Apostles nor given Apostolic authority. The writings of Ignatius, Polycarp, et al talk a lot about the age of the Apostles in the past tense. They did give an incredible amount of authority to the bishops who were/are a part of the Apostolic succession, but did not refer to them as 'apostles.'
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
In the Reformed tradition Apostles according to Calvin are I think super-pastors with direct divine inspiration. They are God given and arise in times of need/crisis. Therefore the absence indicates the Church is functioning normally. Because of this they are usually but not necessarily confined to the first generation Christians.
I have had to put in normally, because Calvin claimed the title for Luther. There is no sense in which Calvin would choose the title for himself.
Jengie
[ 28. August 2011, 08:25: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
irish_lord99: quote:
My understanding is that after the original Apostles died off, their disciples were not called Apostles nor given Apostolic authority. The writings of Ignatius, Polycarp, et al talk a lot about the age of the Apostles in the past tense. They did give an incredible amount of authority to the bishops who were/are a part of the Apostolic succession, but did not refer to them as 'apostles.'
True enough. Which IMHO makes someone calling himself an "Apostle" rather cheeky. The word hubris comes to mind.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The analogy I've seen, Lyda Rose, from some early writings on the subject by Terry Virgo in 'Restoration' magazine in 1981 was that, like salvation, it is 'by grace' so there's no hubris involved.
So, as a teenager, when he heard his older sister claim that she had 'been saved' he was appalled - what arrogance, what hubris!
Then, after his own evangelical conversion, he realised what she'd been saying - she had not been laying claim to particular levels of holiness or deserved to be saved ... rather that she was trusting in the merits of Christ alone for her salvation.
By extension, then, if someone were to be an 'apostle' then that, too, was by grace.
Terry Virgo and the other 'restorationist' leaders who adopted the term apostle did make a distinction between the original Twelve and any subsequent apostles - and highlighted NT verses which suggested that there were other apostles around at the time as well as the original Twelve - some translations of Romans 16:7 have Andronicas and Junia 'among the apostles before I [the Apostle Paul] was'.
So, the claim was always that it wasn't hubris and that they weren't saying that any of them were on a par with the Apostle Paul or Thomas, Bartholomew, Peter etc....
They would also have argued that prominent missionary figures like Hudson Taylor or leaders like John Wesley were also 'apostles' in the sense they were talking about - and again, they would not have claimed to have been on a par with such luminaries.
In practice, though, things did become somewhat blurred - particularly, I would suggest, within Covenant Ministries (a parallel development to New Frontiers) - but in the cold light of day I don't think Terry Virgo or any of the others would have seen themselves on a par with the Apostle Paul or the Twelve.
That said, as Eutychus and others have amply demonstrated, the whole system of accountability was highly flawed.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It might be worth pointing out, Lyda, that just as Calvin entertained the possibility of a continuing apostolate, so do the Orthodox (and also the RCs? I'm not sure).
The Orthodox do celebrate some early Saints as 'Equal to the Apostles', including, I think, St Nina who took the Gospel to Georgia ... an interesting example of a female apostle. They'd have to clarify that point for us, though.
I think Jengie Jon's point is a pertinent one in a Reformed framework - Calvin would never have claimed such a title or office (or function) for himself. And as New Frontiers essentially operates within a reformed/neo-reformed paradigm this should give them pause. But then, they'd probably take up Calvin's argument and apply it to the contemporary scene - ie. things are in a sorry state and so a 'restoration' of the apostolate is needed to get the show on the road and bring things back on track (as they'd see it).
It's also worth pointing out that none of the restorationist 'apostles' believed in 'apostolic succession' and so the office/function isn't handed on to others as in a relay-race. That said, I've been at meetings where it was claimed that 'apostles' had been recognised and there was somewhat of a hullabaloo made on the platform with prophecies and the laying on of hands and so on as someone was apparently 'recognised' by the other apostles present. I always felt uncomfortable with this but could never quite put my finger on it at the time ...
The thing that always used to elude them, from what I could see, was that there was very little evidence of what they considered, 'the signs that mark an apostle' ... healings, miracles and so on. These were always claimed to be happening somewhere else but we didn't see a great deal of it in our own back-yards ...
That said, I would defend all of the 'R1' guys against accusations of flakiness to some extent. Believe you me, they were all of them a lot more grounded and more moderate than some of the things that have gone on in more 'independent' and non-aligned/non-networked set-ups. At least that was the case for some time ... it may not be so these days.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
But the view on, say, cultural transformation and whether some forms of it are even possible is heavily dependent on how sanctification is said to work.
I have to heartily agree! One of the things I've seen locally is that the members of the local NF branch have 'arrived', for lack of a better word, when they start acting more Western. For example, when they abandon the respectful, quiet worship of their culture and start dancing in the aisles (or in the case of the Armenians, when they stop shedding heartfelt tears of humility during prayer) then they've come into 'true worship.'
That's when God has 'really touched them/ baptized them in the Holy Spirit.'
You raise a very important point - I was including that under the rubric of worship, and hadn't really considered it too deeply. [Interesting note; one of the best cross-cultural worship lectures I've heard was by a ethno-musicologist who had worked for Wycliffe and was now attending one of the NF churches in a fairly deprived area of Manchester.]
I was actually referring to those who wanted to see the church transform culture - which is only really possible if you assume that sanctification suddenly not only improves people visibly, but gives them insight into all sorts of subjects that are denied to those who merely have common grace to go on.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
True enough. Which IMHO makes someone calling himself an "Apostle" rather cheeky. The word hubris comes to mind.
As I've mentioned before here, I think Terry has been very careful and canny in never referring to himself as an apostle, whilst simultaneously using Paul's apostolate (or at least his take on it) as a blueprint for his operation. Using the adjective "apostolic" rather than the noun gives rather more wiggle room, although in terms of authority it comes down to the same thing.
As to what an apostle does, before I came across NF the way I heard the word used was to describe people who had planted one or more churches themselves. I think of a guy here, well on in years now, who is a rabid anti-charismatic. In some 60 years of ministry he planted two churches in very adverse conditions (which are well-regarded and still going strong today), continues to pastor a third, recognised the spiritual fruit of the gypsy revival here despite being diametrically opposed to it, and agreed with a local pentecostal missionary that each should pioneer in a separate town with no protestant church rather than slug it out in the same locality. I can't think of anyone more removed from the big platform scene of modern charismatic churches.
[ 28. August 2011, 14:40: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Okay, I guess as a job description of someone who plants churches, apostle is an appropriate term. It's the baggage of a glorified past that comes with it that is pretty scary. Somehow I think that not many people on the job called "Apostle", labeled as such, could long hold the images of "leader" and "servant" in their apostolic viewfinder simultaneously and not find the picture listing away from servant. The things described as happening at the "apostolic" level of of NF seems to bear this out.
[ 28. August 2011, 18:19: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Okay, I guess as a job description of someone who plants churches, apostle is an appropriate term.
Well, just remember that for Restorationist roles, having people in the office of 'Apostle' is part of getting back to the fourfold/fivefold ministry pattern of the first century church (and for them part of being truly Biblical).
So yes, at one level it's just someone who has planted multiple churches, on the other level it's something quite a lot more than that.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Okay, I guess as a job description of someone who plants churches, apostle is an appropriate term.
Well, just remember that for Restorationist roles, having people in the office of 'Apostle' is part of getting back to the fourfold/fivefold ministry pattern of the first century church (and for them part of being truly Biblical).
Sorry to follow myself up - but there is something else worth saying here:
I think a lot of churches tend to take a minimalist view to the picture of church government in the Bible - in that they see their particular form embodied there (congregational, presbyterian, episcopal etc) but assume that they have Christian liberty to fill in the gaps as the Bible doesn't spell out every detail.
Restorationist outfits are more likely to take the view that the Bible spells out all there is to church government. So of course there is no need for checks and balances, as we are all brothers here and Paul can always tell Peter he is wrong to his face.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
In "Surprised by the Power of the Spirit", a much-read book in my day in NF circles, former Dallas Theological Seminary lecturer turned Wimber aficionado Jack Deere lists the following characteristics of apostles as a yardstick for their contemporary ilk:
- suffering for the gospel
- special insight into "divine mysteries"
- accompanying signs and wonders
- blameless integrity
- authority, particularly over demonic forces.
Church planting doesn't even make the list! Which is perhaps just as well for Terry Virgo, because I don't think he himself has ever actually planted a church from scratch.
In Restoration in the Church, Virgo lists the following characteristics of apostles:
- a master builder and foundation layer, with special insight into doctrinal issues
- appointment of elders, in which the apostle recognises the Holy Spirit's anointing on the elders in question
- breaking new ground with the gospel and 'inspiring existing churches', drawing them into the apostle's vision to support it ( ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) )
Again, much is made of the apostolic-driven way of doing things being radically distinctive from denominational structures. Virgo puts it this way:
quote:
Where there is no anointing, democracy is probably the safest form of church government. But when God gives anointed leadership, democracy must make room for Him to have His way
As I've been arguing, any watering down of what "being apostolic" means appears to call the whole foundation of NF teaching into question.
[ 28. August 2011, 19:54: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
chris stiles: quote:
So yes, at one level it's just someone who has planted multiple churches, on the other level it's something quite a lot more than that.
And as I said: quote:
It's the baggage of a glorified past that comes with it that is pretty scary.
When people label themselves as significantly holy and anointed by God, run for the hills! ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
When people label themselves as significantly holy and anointed by God, run for the hills!
Indeed, as I dug the book out and typed out the quote, I was thinking "how on earth did I buy into all this crap"?
But, to use that word again, it really was a chimera; an enticing and entrancing vision... and like any con, somewhere you really wanted to believe in it and let your enthusiasm override your misgivings. Once again I give you The Firm as a metaphor for understanding it all.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Okay, I guess as a job description of someone who plants churches, apostle is an appropriate term.
Well, just remember that for Restorationist roles, having people in the office of 'Apostle' is part of getting back to the fourfold/fivefold ministry pattern of the first century church (and for them part of being truly Biblical).
So yes, at one level it's just someone who has planted multiple churches, on the other level it's something quite a lot more than that.
I agree, it is quite a lot more. I've said several times that I wouldn't take issue with the title 'apostle' if it were to simply be their way of saying 'bishop'; but it's much more than that.
To be honest, what gets me is not necessarily how much authority the apostolic delegate to our region expects to wield, but how revered he is by the local leadership. All their authority is derived from him, and if a conflict arises between them and a member of the congregation then they can always appeal to the authority that he has vested in them. He's constantly referenced in matters of theology, especially the stuff that has questionable Biblical basis.
Much in the same way that the Orthodox church views scripture through the teachings of the Fathers, so does NF view scripture through the teachings of the 'apostles.' YMMV
The scary thing is that I don't think he personally has the first clue as to how things go on a day-to-day basis in this church. If there were a serious abuse of authority, he'd never have to know about it.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
And as I said: quote:
It's the baggage of a glorified past that comes with it that is pretty scary.
When people label themselves as significantly holy and anointed by God, run for the hills!
Yeah, I just meant that the 'baggage' such that it was - was deliberately chosen because they assumed it was a biblical pattern to be hewn to as closely as possible, without deviations or additions.
On a lighter note, it's possibly an example of grade inflation. It used to be that the more important ministers in Pentecostal groups were known as Bishop Such and Such, now they are known as Apostle Such and Such.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
This is sort of freaky to me reading it. The only modern use of "apostle" I'm aware of has to do with the first missionary(ies) to enter and open to mission outreach a country, region or people group--thus you might speak of the apostle to Burma, the apostle to the Karen people, etc. etc. And since most (all) of these people were (are) working their asses off, they have no time to fuss about what they're called.
Besides, they're usually dead by the time somebody calls them that.
[ 29. August 2011, 00:27: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, yes, Lamb Chopped ...
In fairness, the restorationist guys did use the term like that too, but they felt there was something else and more to it than that - hence their attempt to 'restore' what they took to be a NT model.
The more reflective among them were well aware that they might get it wrong, but they felt that someone had to get the ball rolling.
Of course, if you have an ecclesiology that embraces the idea of 'apostolic succession' then it's a pretty daft idea. Equally, if you're in a reformed set-up (small 'r' or Big R) with a congregationalist or presbyterian polity then it can look equally daft - but for some from that end of things it appeared to offer a more realised ecclesiology and an end to petty congregational disputes and infighting. Of course, it did no such thing.
I'm with Eutychus. How did I ever let myself buy into it? Not, in my case, with NF, but with a similar and parallel network - which was a lot worse if anything ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
Its an attractive con. It takes some maturity to see through it. As soon as a hierarchy sets themselves up to extract a tithe from you and demands submission without reciprocal accountability they are not following what Christ taught about serving others. New Frontiers are creating a cult where the church structure and its offices are off limits for criticism. They cannot do this because they have to bow down to Virgo's vision or fall out of favour. If these guys ran the country with this structure I would be on the first plane out. It would look a lot more like Geneva under Calvin than paradise.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Where are Ramarius and Twangist? Have they given up on this thread?
At the risk of going round and round in circles, I'd be interested to hear their take/response to some of the more recent posts here - particularly on the role of apostles (not Terry Virgo necessarily as he's now retired) and how they are supposed to function and how they, apparently, differ from leaders/bishops/overseers in other church settings.
I was in a similar outfit for 18 years and it cost me shed-loads of money - in terms of tithes and offerings. Quite an expensive mistake to have made.
That said, the quality of fellowship was good ... but it did become rather closed and insular. That's another occupational hazard of any group - not just a restorationist one - with a very 'closed' set of standards and ecclesiology. The mileage does vary, of course.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
(not Terry Virgo necessarily as he's now retired)
Not so fast. All the sources I can find scrupulously avoid being clear on this point, and one of these days I'm going to shell out the Companies House fee to look at the NFI Limited's board members and articles. As far as I can see, true to NF cognitive dissonance form, he's both stepped down and still there.
I can't speak for the other participants, but I think in the UK you had something called a Bank Holiday weekend...?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
Evening all. We seem to have got to the point of rehearsing previous conversations here. Functionally NF apostles don't look a lot different from similar roles elsewhre, and in some crucial respects quite dissimilar to the NT apostles they are supposed to model.
The real questions are around why anyone outside the movement should care, and what the future holds. And believe me I'm a lot more concerned about this than any of you lot, lovely though you are. So two quick observations. Accountability among senior leaders in NF works itself out amongst teams of leaders. It's oligarchic rather than democratic. The real question is whether it works effectively to bring about the kind of grace filled vibrant communities we aspire to. The picture there is mixed. Experience from the Ship is that bullying and controlling behaviour characterised the approach of some of our leaders across the network. But it's certainly not universal, and I could point you to a number of large influential NF churches with much more open approaches to leadership. How the culture of the movement will develop after Terry is something we will have to re-visit as new structures bed in. Re-open the quaestion in 6 months and we might have something new to talk about.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I appreciate the level of dialogue there's been with NF types on this thread and that in and of itself is encouraging.
I accept too that any of these much-talked-about changes would take time to implement.
So I'll take Ramarius' plea at face value, and put the date in my diary ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Just in case there's any confusion, though, that doesn't mean I'm declaring a moratorium on the subject of NF between now and March 2012...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
I can't speak for the other participants, but I think in the UK you had something called a Bank Holiday weekend...?
Well spotted! I've certainly spent too much time swearing, oops I mean speaking in other tongues, at self assembly furniture.
IME NF operates like a Presbyterian type set up at the local level - there is even (increasingly?) a distinction made between the lead elder and the rest of his team, which seems to mirror the teaching elder/minister and ruling elder distinction. At the (to coin the yucky phrase) trans-local level it looks much like classic episcopalian church government (our region even has 3 suffragans). The hope is that these offices will work on a relational basis.
For those who are interested P.J. Smyth has written a booklet on the NF understanding of the apostolic and includes some appendix's by Terry.
How it will all work out over the next period of time who can tell? My hope is that it will be a missional forward period of time for NF rather than a period of navel-gazing.
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JJ
SDG
blog
Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The question I would ask from that, is do they follow the Presbyterian rules and the local church being represented by an elder who is not the lead elder on higher councils. The lead elder is on such councils as a matter of right. Also are the other local leader voted for by the congregation and do the local congregation have a say in who their lead elder is?
Presbyterianism is a highly developed form of government and at its core is a balance of power between the trained cleric and the elected local leadership. Without this no system is really Presbyterian.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
I think you know the answer to that Jengie ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Is there a better word to describe that set up at the local level?
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JJ
SDG
blog
Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think the acid test is who appoints elders. If the buck stops with trans-local ministry, all the more so on theological grounds (see my quote from Restoration in the Church - will it be on your newly-assembled bookshelves? ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) ), despite lots of touchy feely statements to the contrary, there's no actual, 'official' accountability to the congregation at all, even if this fact only emerges at times of crisis*.
Unless and until NF explicitly backs off the teaching of Terry as quoted above, I think it's all so much chasing after the wind.
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*I found this out when I realised there was no constitutional way at all for the local congregation to get rid of its elders, even though (due to vestiges of democracy in our set-up) there was a way of getting rid of me as pastor or lead elder, i.e. a confidence vote, which I in fact requested as the least bad solution, but which never happened because of all that "anointing" nonsense quoted above.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
Eutychus - I'm not disagreeing (see my comments on the "green lights" above).
I suspect that if you are asking the question of where power lies and where the buck stops it's actually at some variable point somewhere between lead elders and trans-local chaps depending on local cirumstances. There are plenty of churches (I imagine) that are ex-NF where the locals leaders left NF and took the church with them.
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JJ
SDG
blog
Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
For those who are interested P.J. Smyth has written a booklet on the NF understanding of the apostolic and includes some appendix's by Terry.
Just glanced through this.
I notice one of the roles of the apostle as defined by PJ is "silencing rebels"...
I also note that there's a whole chapter on "Elders and apostles: who's in charge" which engages in precisely the kind of touchy-feely talk I alluded to above and a lot of fancy footwork, but cannot escape the authoritarian conclusion, emphasis mine:
quote:
apostolic men and ministry are a gift to elders and their churches, given to equip and mature the church. Elders should acknowledge and welcome genuine apostolic authority, and should soften themselves to receive the imprint of God through these men. Elders should understand their autonomy within the context of their apostolic covering. They and their churches are caught up with other churches on apostolic mission!
The quote continues with the word "Hallelujah!" but having been on the sharp end of what that entails, I didn't think I could. If you don't "soften yourself" as deemed appropriate by the apostle, you are very likely to find that you are one of the "rebels" that need "silencing".
Not very presbyterian, is it?
[x-post. How is what you say borne out doctrinally by quotes like that? Something's gotta give... As for the church leaving, in my case it didn't really get the choice. I was told NF had "removed itself" from me, not the church, conveniently keeping the other two elders with it, and all sorts of divine retribution was threatened by the NF envoys on a thoroughly ambushed and confused congregation should it leave the safety of the apostolic covering provided by NF...]
[ 30. August 2011, 21:24: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
I suspect that if you are asking the question of where power lies and where the buck stops it's actually at some variable point somewhere between lead elders and trans-local chaps depending on local cirumstances. There are plenty of churches (I imagine) that are ex-NF where the locals leaders left NF and took the church with them.
Surely if they are ex-Newfontiers because they disagreed with what you call the "trans-local chaps", that means in effect for any church in Newfrontiers that the buck stops not at some variable point between them and lead elders but with the "trans-local chaps", doesn't it?
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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine
Posts: 1090 | From: En lieu sûr | Registered: Dec 2002
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
There is just too much double speak for my liking in NF. Some of the phrases I've been 'conditioned' with include :
We are servant leaders and do not lord it over others.
You must submit to our leadership as rebellion is as bad as witchcraft.(Article on NF website about spiritual authority.
You do not have to tithe legaisticaly. You should give to the local church and tithe 10% or more or you could be under a curse. (Understanding Church life course booklet)
We are not a denomination but a loose affiliation of churches. You must submit to our apostolic team and we give 10% back to head office. You must submit to what Terry Virgo regards as good theology.
We are meant to be accountable to one another. You must submit to leadership. We do not need to submit to you or be accountable to you for what we are paid, who we employ, any sin in our lives, how many foreign trips we take, what we preach,or who we choose as elders. It is rebellion if you question this. We are however a priesthood of all believers and do not lord it over you. You will not have the opportunity to speak at a business meeting, but it is called a family meeting.
This sort of stuff is just a crap form of manipulative mind control. It looks from the outside like a bunch of self deluded alpha males using scripture as an excuse to lord it over others.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Blimey, Arminian, (and Eutychus) it sounds very much like other 'R1' restorationist networks in that regard. And I was always under the impression that NF was more moderate ...
I'm sure there are variations in practice and that the 'imprint' (doesn't that sound a bit intrusive? Like they've stamped something onto your forehead?) isn't as strong in some areas as others.
I'll agree with Ramarius that we need to give all this time to develop. But see my contributions to the 'apostolic covering' thread over in Kerygmania to see why I'll not be queueing up to get back under 'apostolic covering' any time soon.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
Thanks for the cross ref Gamaliel. My particular interest on the Kerygmania thread was to see what people knew about the hermeneutic underpinning the term. But if it stimulates thought around the more practical issues on this thread, all well and good.
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok - the two threads are related because a faulty hermeneutic leads to faulty practice.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
....agreed Mr G....
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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