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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: NewFrontiers after Terry Virgo
chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
It's not that surprising if fewer people in the latter groups enjoy participating, regardless of how well they've thought out their ideas.

Sure, but there would be external evidence of those ideas being well thought out.
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Ramarius
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Couple of quickies for Gamaliel and Eutychus's. Gamaliel - thanks, I'vr been called a few things in my time but 'eirenic' is a first [Biased]

I defer to your knowledge of the operation of other church. I chose the Nigerian example as one I brought up with colleagues in NF to make the point that people elsewhere seem to be just as 'apostoloc' as we are. I think the fact in NF we now talk more about 'apostolic ministry' and less about 'apostles' is an early sign that we are becoming less precious about this. One thing I didn't mention was that our apostolic people are supposed to encourge mission and, in particular, church planting. So in practice I would say that some of our apostolic people major more on promoting mission, whereas others act more as senior pastors. Gamaliel I'll leave you to decide which label best fits leaders in other churches, although personally I recognise what could only be described as 'apostolic' ministry in other churches including Orthodox. Broadening the perspective as you have is very helpful.

Mr E. On appointing elders we tend to work on the 'three green lights' approach. Prospective elders are recognised by the congregation, the existing leaders, and the apostolic person. Ultimately the apostolic chap appoints them, but really this is more of an affirmation of what the church is happy with. In my experience, the main driver for appointing an elder comes from the church leader rather than anyone else.

I'll have to defer on the one about how to disagree with a leader. Got some bills to pay, and starts a different train of thought.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Mr E. On appointing elders we tend to work on the 'three green lights' approach. Prospective elders are recognised by the congregation, the existing leaders, and the apostolic person. Ultimately the apostolic chap appoints them, but really this is more of an affirmation of what the church is happy with. In my experience, the main driver for appointing an elder comes from the church leader rather than anyone else.

Yes, I accept that in practice things usually work that way round.

Where I discovered the flip side was when there was a conflict in which beforehand, the 'apostolic delegate' already backed two of the elders against the other one, prior to there being any open discussion of the issues. Effectively, the lone elder was removed from ministry at the behest of the 'apostolic delegate' without any possible recourse and with no possible action by the congregation.

People at the "apostolic" level who could have intervened either fell in behind the action of the 'delegate' or found somewhere else to be for the duration.

To put it another way, the "three green lights" were replaced by "one red light".

Of course, this kind of thing could happen in many denominational contexts and no solution is perfect, but I think it's particularly acute in NF because of the weight given to 'apostolic authority' in such situations.

That's the kind of area where I think a way needs to be found to explore alternative arbitration.

[ 05. August 2011, 11:48: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Tubbs

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Thread has moved on a bit, but this too so long to think through and type, it's a shame to waste it. [IMO. By the time you get to the end, you may think differently. [Big Grin] ]

quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
There's a false association being made if one equates the robustness of a debate with the depth of knowledge or understanding of the participants. I have never noticed in the ship of fools or life generally all that strong a correlation between how forcefully people express themselves and how much they know what they are talking about.

Some people like the tone of discussion on ship of fools, some people don't. But the tone also comes across differently to those in groups who are mostly being critical and those in groups who are mostly being criticised. It's not that surprising if fewer people in the latter groups enjoy participating, regardless of how well they've thought out their ideas.

Thank you, moonlitdoor. [Yipee] Your final paragaph explains exactly the point I was trying to make.

It’s a kind of chicken and egg thing … Posters from these churches avoid threads relating to them because they end up defending rather discussing. But, if more posters from those churches got involved with those threads then there would be less defending and more discussing.

It’s nowt to do with hosting. It’s more about wanting the charismatic evangelical equivalents of Triple Tiara, Trisagion, Chesterbelloc and IngoB etc to start posting to balance things out a bit.

I don’t doubt that spiritual abuse is a live issue within NFI. Never have. But it’s only part of the picture and sometimes, on the Ship, it can feel like it’s all of it. The analogy of the sweet talker who woos you with hearts and flowers before kicking the crap out of you is a very good one. But that sweet talker hangs out in every church. I encountered them at a highly respected and large Baptist church about 20 years ago. Friends of ours have just met them in the same place. And although structures and transparency will stop sometimes stop them, it won’t always.

People who’ve been through that need others to listen, support and comfort them. [You have no idea how grateful I was for the opportunity to talk about stuff with Stephen Parsons both privately and publically via Ungodly Fear]. I’m glad that Eutychus is there to do that. I just wish he wasn’t needed. [Frown]

The whole church needs to acknowledge that this crap goes on. And there needs to be a better understanding where the fine line exists between a leader legitimately exercising their spiritual authority and abusing their position to avoid being challenged when behaving badly. “Father doesn’t always know best …”

Will put soap box down now. Hungry.

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Polly

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Yes thank you MoonlitDoor. You've been able to explain this far better than I ever could.

Eutychus- some further clarification on my part. I have never denied or rejected the idea that abuse has or is happening inside NF. Nor have I intentionally be-littled anyone who has been hurt in this way. However if I have unintentionally caused further stress then my unreserved apologies.

I'd demonstrate my apologies by buying much beer for those concerned [Smile]

In addition i'd like to add that I've never devalued the original questions or concerns asked of NF. I wonder too what will happen hoping the movement will stay together.

My concerns have always been that when highlighting worrying events it has felt like some have spoken about as if this kind of behaviour is only happening within NF or charismatic groups.

It wouldn't hurt those who do this to show in some posts that sadly abuse happens just as much in other church streams.

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Polly

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quote:
Ok, that's a fair call, Polly. In fairness, I was in a bit of a snarky mood when I posted that and I've been loosing off in all directions recently, as some Shipmates may have noticed. I've been having a go at Calvinists, at Arminians, at charismatics at ...



The instance you've cited was a cheap shot though and I withdraw it unequivocably.


Gamaliel - thank you.

For my part I was probably grumpy too. Something here about not posting when I'm very tired and its late!

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Eutychus
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<busy collecting beer vouchers from Polly from all previous NF threads>

Since the last time we had a long NF thread, some of the people in NF who were directly involved have personally apologised to me and Mrs E. for what happened (although disappointingly for all concerned, no apology from NF as a whole has so far been possible).

One of those people asked me what steps I thought could be taken to ensure that kind of thing didn't happen again. I took that as an honest question and an indication that there was a new-found willingness for self-examination within NF on this issue.

This thread confirms that to me, and I think the current turn of events offers an opportunity to address that.

Yes, abuse happens in all church streams.

Yes, no amount of safeguards can prevent all abuse or bad conduct.

No (again), abuse is not omnipresent in NF.

However, I still think that some types of church structure leave more room for abuse than others.

What it boils down to for NF, from my perspective, is this:

If within NF, it is seen by those in authority as a point of doctrine (and in the absence of any concrete measures to the contrary) that accountability only functions 'upwards' to apostolic leaders higher up and not 'downwards' to congregations, and there is no alternative path for dispute resolution, then I think NF is one such structure.

I think changing that involves a shift in both doctrine and practice, but I don't think that's actually unthinkable at the present time.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Snags
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Polly, buying beer, and you a student pastor at a Baptist church. Disgraceful [Disappointed]

I remember when ... [Biased]

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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)

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Polly

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quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
Polly, buying beer, and you a student pastor at a Baptist church. Disgraceful [Disappointed]

I remember when ... [Biased]

Before the temperance movement Baptist pastors used to get a beer fund instead of a book fund!!!
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Gamaliel
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Medieval monks used to receive a beer allowance amounting to around eight pints a day.

It was safer than drinking the water.

Mind you, I suspect that much of it was what was known as 'small beer' - the low alcoholic beer that was given to children in those days. But not all of it would have been.

Interestingly, some of the early Methodists, perhaps even Wesley (someone will correct me if I'm wrong), advocated beer drinking as a corrective to gin - the crack cocaine of its day. Wesley was definitely against drinking tea which he saw as an unnecessary extravagance.

Tangent over.

When do I get my pint?

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Polly

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

When do I get my pint?

I can't always get to Ship meets as Mrs Tubbs tends to go and I take on Babysitting services but anytime you're in St Albans which has as many pubs as churches....
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Snags
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I'm only just down the road. Will be there in 30 minutes. Or I would if I hadn't already been drinking [Smile]

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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)

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Polly

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quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
I'm only just down the road. Will be there in 30 minutes. Or I would if I hadn't already been drinking [Smile]

Anoher time would be good. [Cool]
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Daron
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quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
Polly, buying beer, and you a student pastor at a Baptist church. Disgraceful [Disappointed]

I remember when ... [Biased]

Before the temperance movement Baptist pastors used to get a beer fund instead of a book fund!!!
My wife (before we were married) took a Frontline Team of teenagers, based at the Baptist church we worshipping at, out on the razzle in Turnpike Lane, London. She was not flavour of the month, I can tell you...

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Each strand of sorrow has a place, within this tapestry of grace
So through the trials I choose to say, Your perfect will in your perfect way

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Tubbs

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
<busy collecting beer vouchers from Polly from all previous NF threads>

...

Yes, abuse happens in all church streams.

Yes, no amount of safeguards can prevent all abuse or bad conduct.

No (again), abuse is not omnipresent in NF.

However, I still think that some types of church structure leave more room for abuse than others.

...

Hopefully I've kept the meaning. I'll start a new thread on this as it's worth discussing properly. Won't be this weekend as we have guests.

Tubbs

PS If you do ever make it to our neck of the woods, it's going to be expensive! You've got quite a bit of beer to collect. [Biased]

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Arminian
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Mr E. On appointing elders we tend to work on the 'three green lights' approach. Prospective elders are recognised by the congregation, the existing leaders, and the apostolic person. Ultimately the apostolic chap appoints them, but really this is more of an affirmation of what the church is happy with. In my experience, the main driver for appointing an elder comes from the church leader rather than anyone else.


Well that certainly did not happen recently in my New Frontiers church. The 'apostle' thousands of miles away had a say, but the congregation did not get to choose who was to be trained for Eldership. Nor did the leadership back down when their chosen one received a large number of objections from the congregation. The 'family' meeting to discuss leadership consisted of the two pastors talking at us for one and a half hours about what they had decided was best for us, and refusing to allow anyone else to talk or discuss things.
There seems no way of keeping the leadership in New Frontiers accountable for who they appoint as leaders, how much they pay themselves, what projects they pick, how they spend the money, how many foreign trips they go on, or what exploitative doctrines they adopt (tithing).

I'm glad I left. If this is not yet a cult, it certainly does have cult like tenancies.
The structure is wide open for abuse. No amount of wishful thinking can fix something where accountability goes only upward.

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Ramarius
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Interesting feedback Arminians. I suppose the test of these noble principles is what happens when the ideal breaks down. If that has happened in a church I had been in you wouldn't have seen me for dust either.

Others have had better experiences than you. I do know of one NF church where the 'apostle' was unhappy with a proposed elder but withdrew objections when he saw that both the current eldership team and church were fully behind the appointment. So in the end there were still three green lights even though there were some sparks along the way.

But I also take your point that the way NF is set up in invites the potential for this sort of behaviour and I hope we give this some serious thought as a movement as we explore our future.

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Twangist
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Hi Eutch (and others)- I have been away in RL and then not been at the pooter much so sorry for not getting to reply to your points.
I also though that the thread had petered out ...
Any hoo

Eutch I think your checks and balances have a lot of merit, Ramarius has covered that more fully.

I think the ship would be different if there were more charis/evo peeps on it. I must confess that it is certainly helpful for me to interact with those of different views and try to make sense.

quote:
In terms of learning and study I wish that restorationist and renewal folks would just read the Apostolic Fathers and come to realise the church they are trying to restore never existed.
Eddie,the snarky answers would be
that they spend more time just reading the Bible and want the church to look like that!!
Or perhaps if they spent more time in the Fathers they would see more clearly how quickly the glory departed [Biased]
Or that they spend more time in other parts of Church History trying to get the Gospel correct!!!

Regarding the "three green lights" don't forget there is the fourth which is the individuals sense of "call". I think that these ideas are present in all forms of vocational discernment in whichever church setting. I'm not sure that they are always evaluated well or weighed proportionately in NF (mind you I've seen some duff leaders in every denomination and in the workplace too).

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JJ
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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
Eddie,the snarky answers would be
that they spend more time just reading the Bible and want the church to look like that!!

It wasn't me who resurrected the thread, but since it has been resurrected, let me pick up on this.

I think one of the major realisations for me was that, considerations of the Church Fathers aside, NF's imaginary picture of what "New Testament Church" looked like was actually highly selective and bore no resemblance to what's actually in Scripture.

The closer I look at NT church life, the less it looks like something glorious to be aspired to and the more it looks like barely organised chaos, squabbling, and generally trying simply to get a grip on the implications of the Gospel.

Plus the bits which are extremely short in the Bible on account of their lack of narrative interest but extremely long in terms of time, like "he continued teaching in this way for about two years", which takes less than five seconds to read but a lot longer to live.

These parts somehow get overlooked in all that endless talk of being "on the verge of a major breakthrough". Most of church life - and indeed church history - is about boring carrying on, not being hyped up for the next revival.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Twangist
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quote:
The closer I look at NT church life, the less it looks like something glorious to be aspired to and the more it looks like barely organised chaos, squabbling, and generally trying simply to get a grip on the implications of the Gospel.
Like real church life and church history.

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JJ
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Twangist
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quote:
The closer I look at NT church life, the less it looks like something glorious to be aspired to and the more it looks like barely organised chaos, squabbling, and generally trying simply to get a grip on the implications of the Gospel.
Like real church life and church history.

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JJ
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Eutychus
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Agreed, but that's hardly the picture of restored church life that you (or NF) "want the church to look like", is it? You think it's different and enough of a blueprint to want to get back to it.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Ramarius
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Yo Twangist. Love the name by the way particularly given your profession [Smile] . When in NF we talk about 'restoring the church' I wonder a bit what part of the glorious NT church we are trying to restore. They seem to have all the lifestyle and very human issues that are common to churches today. And if it's NT ministry we are, frankly, quite selective about how we define this. So we define the 'restored' role of the apostle very much in terms of the role as a senior church leader. But in the NT this was only half the story. Apostles were as much defined by their personal interaction with their mission field as they were with their churches. It seems the more 'apostolic' our people become, the further away they get from the people we are trying to reach with the Gospel.

To that extent, we do with a bit of 'restoration' of our own. When the people we call apostles don't, in functional terms, look much different to people with similar roles in other streams we don't help our own credibility.

Keep breeding them minstrels my friend.....

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Twangist
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quote:
You think it's different and enough of a blueprint to want to get back to it.
I think we have to try and ground NT principles and practices in our varied real life settings and live them out.

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JJ
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Ramarius
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quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
quote:
You think it's different and enough of a blueprint to want to get back to it.
I think we have to try and ground NT principles and practices in our varied real life settings and live them out.
And my pals in other churches would agree. But they don't talk about 'restoring the church' which implies that we're alright - it's all them others who have, to some extent, lost the plot. I can understand why we went in for this sort of rhetoric when the restoration movement started, but I really think we have outgrown this now.

And I've just worked out how to use quotes. Must be an importation of your didactic gift....

[Overused] [Overused] [Overused] [Cool] [Overused]

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
I think we have to try and ground NT principles and practices in our varied real life settings and live them out.

That's vague enough that it applies to just about anyone who declares themselves to be a christian!

You came back on the thread, in jest perhaps but in print nonetheless, to say that, in contrast to Church Fathers fans, NFers "spend more time just reading the Bible and want the church to look like that".

When I point out the NT church looks pretty much like a mess to me, you hastily agree that's what all churches look like.

So much for wanting the church to look like the NT church.

Like I say, it's hard not to agree with your most recent comment, but what you need to see is that NF, at least in my experience, has made a big thing out of having a distinctive church model based on the NT in a way that other churches didn't.

Surely it can't have escaped your notice that Terry wrote a book called Restoration in the Church on this whole topic?

This isn't a minor issue. In my own NF leadership history I turned my back on a lot of institutional (non-conformist evangelical) christianity, at NF's behest and against my better instincts, because of that claimed distinctiveness.

This takes us right back to my OP. In the next phase of NF, will it uphold the doctrine of apostolic authority which is a key component of this "restoring NT church" teaching, or will it back away from it? If so, what, if anything, will make it distinctive and hold it together?

[x-post with Ramarius]

[ 23. August 2011, 21:22: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
Eddie,the snarky answers would be
that they spend more time just reading the Bible and want the church to look like that!!
Or perhaps if they spent more time in the Fathers they would see more clearly how quickly the glory departed [Biased]
Or that they spend more time in other parts of Church History trying to get the Gospel correct!!!

Right .. and there is a time and place for snarkiness, but remarks like this tend to confirm people's prejudices that NF is a thousand miles wide and an inch deep.

quote:

quote: The closer I look at NT church life, the less it looks like something glorious to be aspired to and the more it looks like barely organised chaos, squabbling, and generally trying simply to get a grip on the implications of the Gospel.

Like real church life and church history.

Right - so presumably the Glory had already departed by the time the Epistles were written. Not exactly the ideal example for the golden picture of the restored church, is it?

One would be forgiven for thinking that the restorationist doctrine is based less on exegesis than wishful thinking.

It's only a slightly more sophisticated argument than the one that reads of churches meeting in houses and imagines a gathering of middle class people in Guildford swapping pleasantries while sipping tea.

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irish_lord99
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This post got a bit longer than I wanted it to: it's not really NF specific, but became more of a defense of reading the Church Fathers... apologies if it's too off-topic [Hot and Hormonal]

quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
I think we have to try and ground NT principles and practices in our varied real life settings and live them out.

I think one of the things that I'm starting to realize is that the church of NT was not the ideal that we should be shooting for, nor was it the model on which we should base modern CP work. I certainly don't see the need to 'restore' it.

The reason that we need the writings of the Church Fathers is that the church continued to develop and mature after the passing of the Apostles. The Fathers were humble enough not to canonize their own works into scripture; but that does not mean that their writing did not shape the course of Christian belief, practice, and theology.

Is looking solely to scripture 'enough'? Yes, of course! But if the thoughts and writings of those who canonized the scriptures are available to you, wouldn't reading them be beneficial simply because it helps you to see how the original audience of a fully canonized Bible would have viewed the contents therein?

The sad fact of the matter is, that the 'snarky' answers twangist provided are what I usually hear when I mention the Fathers to Evangelicals (though admittedly, I give similar answers when someone hands me a book by Joel Osteen, Terry Virgo, etc. [Hot and Hormonal] ). The ironic thing is, the things I have read by Basil the Great, Polycarp, Ignatius, etc. give accounts of men wielding far greater spiritual prowess than anything NF has ever witnessed!

I recently read a series of treatises by St. John of Damascus and in them he says this:

quote:
Let us, therefore, brothers, stand on the rock of faith and in the tradition of the Church, not removing the boundaries, which our holy fathers set in place, nor giving space to those who wish to innovate or break up the structure of God's holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. For if license is given to anyone who wishes, little by little the whole body of the church will be broken up.
In my opinion, that's a prophetic word about would eventually happen when the teachings and traditions of the Fathers were jettisoned and people started to rely only on the Bible. Is the Bible alone 'enough'? Yes. But the incredible division that we see in the Church is a result of everyone 'having license' to interpret the Bible as he/she wishes.

And then what I see is the Bible being interpreted ever-more radically in an attempt to get at the top of the ever-growing pile of denominations. Since the thread is about NF, I'll use their teachings on Apostles as an example of trying to 'get ahead' of the herd. Seen through the eyes of ancient church tradition, the idea that TV et al are apostles is heresy. Without that tradition to 'level the playing field' as it were, various denominations are pretty much able to claim that the Bible says whatever they want it to say.

It's madness I tell you! [Big Grin]

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Arminian
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Eutychus wrote I think one of the major realisations for me was that, considerations of the Church Fathers aside, NF's imaginary picture of what "New Testament Church" looked like was actually highly selective and bore no resemblance to what's actually in Scripture.

Agreed. Lets face it how many of us would be willing to do what those early Christians did ? How about selling all our possessions and giving it all to the poor or selling yourself into slavery to buy someone else out ? Setting up meetings where there is no paid expert, but all contribute in the context of a small group of Christians in a home. Where leadership is about risking your life by hosting the meetings, and simply aiding those around you by providing food and shelter.

We are in a totally different culture. The problem NF has is that the leaderships seem self deluded enough to actually believe they are the true New Testament church. This puts the structure beyond rational criticism. It institutionalises a hierarchy of spiritual Father's and sons that I don't see in scripture. Who was St Paul's spiritual father ? Who was the lead apostle in charge of the organisation ? These concepts that NF have adopted are absent from the NT.

If we want to get back to New Testament apostles we need to figure out how St Paul managed what he did without power point, expensive pa systems and nice music ! If Terry Virgo really wanted to put back New Testament apostles he would make sure that there was no one apostle in overall control, and take a part time job so as not to burden other believers with a paid ministerial salary ! St Paul was in part time unpaid ministry. The Didache is pretty strict on getting paid for the gospel. I'm not sure a 1st century Christian would be too happy with what modern apostles are paid. Again we are in a different culture and its not bad that people are paid, we just need to realise that we aren't the 1st Century Church and are unlikely to return to it any time soon. Our concepts of leadership are in the context of much larger gatherings where only a few get to share. It is a big deal in large churches, less so when its based on service in a small group where all freely participate. I suspect our entire modern concept of 'church' would be unrecognised by early Christians.

How about a church plant where you get a bunch of people healed in the street and then convince some with the basic gospel. Give them a few days training, but no bible. Just a few bits of the old testament, and then not see them for a year. This is pretty much what Paul did, but is this the ideal ? Probably not, but it did work with the need for some serious tweaking later.

If we go back to the church Fathers we have to decide which ones. Few of them got the same results as St Paul. How do we know that the majority of Christians of the day didn't hold differing views but simply didn't record them ? We don't of course. Some of the Fathers added in too much from Gnosticism for my liking. Don't get me started on later reformers like Calvin ! (you can guess from my sig I'm not exactly a fan of his theology !).

I don't think there is a perfect church structure as the church really is just individuals gathered in Jesus' name. I don't get the impression from scripture that God is that bothered by the chaos. He seems to look on as a doting parent looking at a bunch of kids running around in total chaos wondering what they will make of who he really is. I never got the impression Jesus was too impressed with religion or structure. Just loving each other and God.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
If we go back to the church Fathers we have to decide which ones. Few of them got the same results as St Paul.

Actually, the long term impact of Paul was primarily in terms of his canonical letters. His missionary activities don't appear to have made much of a long term impact in terms of church longevity (or indeed converts).
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As much as I like Ramarius, I think his comment that groups like New Frontiers are doing themselves no favours when their 'apostolic' guys aren't acting that much differently to church leaders in any other stream, denomination or network, speaks volumes.

It speaks volumes because it reveals a chimerical and unattainable notion of perfectionism that lies at the core of the 'restorationist' ambit. It's illusory and it's 'over-realised'.

Of course 'apostolic ministries' (understood in the way they are within New Frontiers and other similar groups) are going to end up acting like everyone else. How can they not do so?

Because, ultimately, what they are are 'bishops' or overseers in the same (or similar) way to bishops and overseers in other churches and traditions. Ok, so they may not wear a pointy hat and carry a curly stick, but they do have an infrastructure, administrative hinterland and the PowerPoint slides, nice music and all the rest of it.

I really don't get it.

The longer I'm away from restorationism the less attainable it appears. It's setting itself up for disillusionment.

I'd go further and say that any attempt to use the Bible 'alone' (as if that were even possible) as the template for church life is equally unattenable and misguided. When was the last time we saw an Ananias and Sapphira incident? We've had 2,000 years of development, analysis and comment. We aren't operating in a vacuum. Scoff at the Fathers if you like, Twangist, but if you're not looking at their example you'll be looking at the example of the Reformers or various revivalists.

The notion that there was a sudden declension from the time of the last of the original Twelve Apostles and that the 'glory' quickly departed is a nonsense. And even if it wasn't, how does one propose that the 'glory' were to be recovered?

Eutychus is right. In the NT we see glory, but we equally see a right, royal mess. And so it has been in each generation since. Why should it be otherwise?

If I were a betting man, I'd wager that I could take each of us to a monastery, say, to a local church of any particular denomination, stream or church and when we compared notes afterwards we'd say something like:

'Well, I didn't think much of X, Y or Z but that monk Brother So-and-So/or that little old lady on the back pew/that young disabled lad over at the side/whoever/whatever ... really showed me something of what Christianity is all about.'

I'm not saying that structures and ecclesiology aren't important. They are. Nor am I saying that we should be satisfied with the status quo. But what I am saying is that we'll exhaust and disillusion ourselves if we go seeking after a perfection that has never existed - nor has ever been promised this side of the Parousia.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Because, ultimately, what they are are 'bishops' or overseers in the same (or similar) way to bishops and overseers in other churches and traditions. Ok, so they may not wear a pointy hat and carry a curly stick, but they do have an infrastructure, administrative hinterland and the PowerPoint slides, nice music and all the rest of it.

I have no problem with most of this (Except for some in the powerpoint crowd who are of the 'Jesus CEO' persuasion). The irritating thing is the insistence - against all observation - that they aren't doing this.

There was a quip in the latest magazine against 'unbiblical congregation and episcopal' modes of church government.

It's not just irritating - as Eutychus has alluded it stops the adoption of checks and balances developed elsewhere by the constant claim that they are 'unbiblical'.

Still, what's going on in the SGM over in the US should be a salutary lesson for the more authoritarian end of NF, and some of the other 'spheres' will probably go off in a church growth direction anyway (see Jesus CEO).

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The notion that there was a sudden declension from the time of the last of the original Twelve Apostles and that the 'glory' quickly departed is a nonsense. And even if it wasn't, how does one propose that the 'glory' were to be recovered?

That's an interesting point that deserves picking up on. I think a lot of the 'revival brinkmanship' in NF is consciously or unconsciously aimed at that.

It's also interesting to see where this lands up NF's fellow-travellers such as the likes of Bethel. There's a strand of charismatic teaching that leaps right over the NT and goes back to the OT for its doctrine; alongside leadership teaching of the "Jethro and Moses" flavour, another example is the "restoration of the tabernacle of David" in which suitably enthusiastic and/or long worship eventually results in "the glory descending". NF themselves may not be directly into this but there's a lot of that kind of thing floating about.

[ 24. August 2011, 12:26: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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There was back in the Covenant Ministries days ... we were always going on about 'restoring David's fallen tent' and so on. I thought that particular fad had gone, only to be replaced by others. It sounds like some of the old ones are still doing the rounds.

Chris Stiles: absolutely. I agree, in fact I couldn't agree more. That's what's so irritating about the whole restorationist scene. Mind you, you get the same sort of thing in reverse with some of the older episcopal and traditional Church groups ...

And that can be just as irritating.

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quote:
It speaks volumes because it reveals a chimerical and unattainable notion of perfectionism that lies at the core of the 'restorationist' ambit. It's illusory and it's 'over-realised'.


Wow, Gamaliel, that's good - and true. I'm particularly smarting at the moment because I've heard that a new church grouping is moving into our town, without reference to anything that's already happening here, and it's taking the line that (through it) "God is going to do something significant" in the area. To me this strikes me of the old Restorationist viewpoint that "only we are really at the forefront of where the Spirit is working". It sounds like kingdom -(rather than "Kingdom") building and - dare I say - arrogance.

I haven't actually met these guys so I trust they (and God) will forgive me if I'm barking up the wrong tree and they turn out to be humble and delightful. But why can't they just come and strengthen the existing churches?

Nothing to do with the OP but a pertinent observation on New Churches I think!

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quote:
Still, what's going on in the SGM over in the US should be a salutary lesson for the more authoritarian end of NF, and some of the other 'spheres' will probably go off in a church growth direction anyway (see Jesus CEO).
Sorry, that's one acronymn too many for me - what's SGM?

[ 24. August 2011, 18:01: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Ramarius
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I don't think we should have a problem with high ideals. All the New Testament writers encourage us to aim high and use some very positive images about how God views his church. I'm always stirred by Terry sharing his really positive view of what the church can, even should be.

The trap we fall into in NF is not facing up to where we fall short of the ideal. In hear a lot of talk about us 'being a provocation to other churches' (because we're sooo good) but not so much about our need to learn from others on our doorstep. It's almost as if facing up to our shortcomings would be a sign of failure, and we can't have that because we are the model of Biblical NT Christianity.

But perhaps we could re-focus for a minute. The thread is about where NF could do as it becomes less centralised and more regionally led. So what would you say NF is good at and should keep working to get even better at, and if you could change one thing in NF that could lead to us being seriously more successful in our mission, what would it be?

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Twangist
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I seem to have upset some people so first up, if that is the case sorry not my intension.

To bring some clarity. I do believe in reading the fathers, (and every era of theology for that matter) - I preached at our NF church this last week and used St John Chrysostom as an example of the points I was trying to make. I've even quoted Justin Martyr in giving a notice before!

I tried to make clear that my reply to Eddies comment was not actually my opinion.

I felt that what he had said was a bit snarky itself and so was trying to "fight fire with fire": It is a little condescending to be told that if only you would read "such and such" your opinion would change. I'm sure that people with for example more liberal views on DH type issues respond equally well to being told to go and read the Bible (because they have and have come to a different conclusion)!!

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Twangist:
I think we have to try and ground NT principles and practices in our varied real life settings and live them out.
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That's vague enough that it applies to just about anyone who declares themselves to be a christian!

Fair point - note to self: Shouldn't post just before hitting the sack.

To some folk (myself included) those principles and practices would look the 17 or however many values thingy and so they would tend to a restorationist type set up. Obviously there are issues as to whether it "does what it says on the tin".
Other peoples exegesis would lead them to a more Congregational, Baptist or Anglican setting. I've a lot of respect for people who do make these kind of moves for conscience sake.

quote:
I'm particularly smarting at the moment because I've heard that a new church grouping is moving into our town, without reference to anything that's already happening here, and it's taking the line that (through it) "God is going to do something significant" in the area. To me this strikes me of the old Restorationist viewpoint that "only we are really at the forefront of where the Spirit is working". It sounds like kingdom -(rather than "Kingdom") building and - dare I say - arrogance.

I haven't actually met these guys so I trust they (and God) will forgive me if I'm barking up the wrong tree and they turn out to be humble and delightful. But why can't they just come and strengthen the existing churches?


Some general comments
They would have trouble starting a church plant by saying that "God's going to do something insignificant"!
They may be good guys and gals who might become friends with you and strengthen your hand anyway.
There are plenty of non-Xtians to go round.
They may be nutters and it'll all come to nothing.
You may be able to get rid of some problem people to them [Devil]
People used to ask the "why can't they just strengthen the church?" question about every branch of non-conformity that ever planted a church in history.

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Ramarius
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quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:


Some general comments
They would have trouble starting a church plant by saying that "God's going to do something insignificant"!
They may be good guys and gals who might become friends with you and strengthen your hand anyway.
There are plenty of non-Xtians to go round.
People used to ask the "why can't they just strengthen the church?" question about every branch of non-conformity that ever planted a church in history.
[/QUOTE]

Part of the value of these boards is how they help us see where we're all coming from. We want our church plants to have a significant missional impact on the communities we plant them. In our own church we have the same attitude to other church planters from other movements involving them in our prayer meetings and offering peer support.

The other side of this is that we tend not to ask the question 'In the context of the wider body of Christ in this town/community where are the gaps and what can bring that will bless other churches and support wider kingdom building.' That's one of the reasons we can come across as arrogant and seeming to suggest that somehow existing churches just haven't cut it and we are ones who will make the difference.

And to be fair, lack of collaboration between churches who are overly focused on their own agendas isn't an exclusive issue for NF.

And Arsenal are through. Whoo hoo!

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
"Still, what's going on in the SGM over in the US should be a salutary lesson for the more authoritarian end of NF, and some of the other 'spheres' will probably go off in a church growth direction anyway (see Jesus CEO)."

Sorry, that's one acronymn too many for me - what's SGM?

Sorry. Sovereign Grace Ministries - which have/had a similar leadership model to that of NF, and a similar set of ideals and beliefs (restorationist, neo-reformed charismatic).

[ 24. August 2011, 20:46: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
So what would you say NF is good at and should keep working to get even better at, and if you could change one thing in NF that could lead to us being seriously more successful in our mission, what would it be?

I think NF is in a cleft stick of its own making, and that being more "successful" (for varying values of the word) would involve ceasing to halt between two simultaneous and contradictory messages which have been coming across in the last few posts.

On the one hand there is the humble and laudable aspiration represented by Twangist as "seeking to apply NT principles to the challenges of life today." If NF could just settle down to doing that it might happily take its place as one of the many-faceted expressions of the wisdom of God, in other words, admit it's one denomination among many.

The thing that's getting in the way of this is NF's contradictory aspiration to, as Ramarius relates, "be a provocation to other churches"; or, in the words of the prophecy, "change the expression of Christianity" (presumably not into a sour-faced one...); or, in the preaching of Terry Virgo, set itself up as a beacon of restored christianity openly inviting other christians to leave their "synagogue religion"; or, in the words of Dave Devenish, "get to every nation before McDonalds does" (and yes I was there and have, or at least had, the tape...).

Whenever there's interaction with other churches, this second set of aspirations fades into the background and the first set takes precedence. But the second set is what has made NF into the organisation it has become to date, and it is inextricably interwoven with the notion of apostolic authority on a par with that granted to NT apostles invested in contemporary men for which, it is argued, no denominational position is a viable alternative. (And Twangist, the reason people get upset is because of the considerable but misguided sacrifices they may have made in pursuing that aspiration).

I think the cognitive dissonance between those two sets of aspirations is all over this thread. My €0,02 is that the best thing NF could do is publicly back away from all those pretentions once and for all. But I doubt it will happen.

Other matters arising:

Twangist, before you write "I"m sorry if..." again, you could do with reading the thread The Proper Apology. (Note that at the time I contributed on that thread, I was still a leader in NFI)

SGM is a movement whose leader, CJ Mahaney, was a frequent speaker at NF events. (Lately I've wondered if NF didn't borrow all its "business" ideas from SGM). The movement is currently in a major meltdown which is being splurged all over the blogosphere. Actually, its leaders could do worse than read that thread too.

I have just got back from a meal out with Mrs Eutychus and an NFI elder and his wife. I am still alive.

Ramarius, do you wist not that Twangist's "quote" anointing seems to have left you? [Two face]

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Gamaliel
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This isn't about having high ideals, Ramarius. I'm all for that. It's about not having an unrealistic and untenable viewpoint and an over-inflated view of one's own importance.

Twangist's comments about the new church plant are probably fine pragmatically ... as far as they go, but having once been part of a Baptist church plant I can attest that the way that other non-conformist groups go about this sort of thing is generally a lot more mindful of what other and existing churches are doing. Similar criticisms to those levelled at NF and similar groups have also been levelled at 'Fresh Expressions' developments within the Anglican church and indeed Anglican church planting (which does happen).

Heck, I've ever seen comments and complaints online by Orthodox people in the US narked that particular jurisdictions (like the Antiochians) which tend to attract more Western converts, are opening up shop on the patch of existing Greek or Russian Orthodox parishes. So this tendency isn't peculiar, apparently, to Protestantism.

But that doesn't let NF off the hook, of course, nor the approach of the group (of whatever affiliation) that Baptist Trainfan is talking about.

I tend to be a 'Gamaliel' on all of this stuff. Time will tell.

If you were to ask, though, as Ramarius has, how NF could move forward and how it could bring its distinctives to bear in terms of overall Christian mission ... well, it is very evangelistic and is very energetic. Those are positive attributes. These aren't exclusive to NF though. In fact, I'm not sure I can think of anything that is particular to NF other than the way it's been run ... and it was never alone in that respect either.

When all's said and done it is simply another development of Free Church/new church/independent evangelical charismatic-dom. A non-conformist Free Church akin to the Baptists but with a more explicitly charismatic agenda and an episcopal (sorry, 'apostolic' [Razz] ) authority structure.

Other than that, it's just the same old/same old. I can't really see the point of it, to be quite honest. It may act as a vehicle for getting people into the Kingdom, as it were, and that's justification enough ... but it's where it takes them after that which bothers me.

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Ramarius
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Now now Euty, the Twanger was slipping into Eirenicism. The old boy should be encouraged (!). I don't think he's anything to apologise for; getting a debate going is one aspect of provocation we're all good at on this boat. But you're right - an apology starting 'If I...' is no apology unless you're genuinely not sure if you have caused offence in which case it's probably best not to bother at all.

I've noted your serious points mind, and I'm really keen to hear some others.....

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Now now Euty, the Twanger was slipping into Eirenicism.

You're right. I'm sorry, Twangist. It was unfair of me to pick on that one point in the context of your whole post.

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Ramarius
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gamaliel:
[QB] This isn't about having high ideals, Ramarius. I'm all for that. It's about not having an unrealistic and untenable viewpoint and an over-inflated view of one's own importance.

And there's the rub my learned friend. NFers would see themselves as going for the big prize and are often a little bemused at the charge of arrogance. Sometimes this is as much to do as ignorance (what do we call it these days - 'emotional intelligence' or the lack thereof) as arrogance.

High ideals great and we would get more credence if we showed other people a bit more of the respect they deserve. I've got some good examples of that within the Movement, but I'll save those for another time. I'm in listening/clarifying mode at the mo... [Help]

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
NFers would see themselves as going for the big prize and are often a little bemused at the charge of arrogance.

There it is again though - the assumption that nobody else is going for the big prize.

Worse still is the apparent institutional inability to consider that the "big prize" might actually be a chimera (I was more than surprised just now to see Gamaliel light on that exact word, which I used when writing to Terry on my departure) - and that the theology of the movement appears to short-circuit the possibility of the question being asked.

Can you define what the "big prize" is??

[ 24. August 2011, 21:44: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Edward Green
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
NFers would see themselves as going for the big prize and are often a little bemused at the charge of arrogance.

There it is again though - the assumption that nobody else is going for the big prize.

Indeed. Anglo-Catholicism is rooted in a desire to be apostolical - a restoration of the church of the first three centuries.

[ 24. August 2011, 22:09: Message edited by: Edward Green ]

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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The big prize, of course, to the RCs and to the Orthodox, is The ChurchTM.

You don't get much bigger than that in terms of aspiration. The One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

And neither would see it as an arrogant claim when they suggest that they are IT.

But both are somewhat bemused when a small, sectarian outfit, such as NF and similar movements, start acting in a way that suggests that they have a similar authority or remit.

And I can see their point.

Within Protestantism, though, where no-one would claim to have the monopoly on the Truth, it is inevitable that any group with a perfectionist agenda or which claims to be going for the 'big prize' is going to ruffle some feathers.

Chimera is the word I'd use and stick to.

There is no such thing as a 'restored' church. Restored to what? What is it that is supposed to have been lost, exactly? And how would we know whether NF or any other group for that matter, were closest to restoring whatever-it-is than anyone else?

It doesn't make any sense.

At least NF does have an ecclesiology though. Which is more than can be said for many independent charismatic evangelical outfits.

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Gamaliel
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The Orthodox and the RCs would say, though, Edward, that there is no need to 'restore' the Church of the first three centuries. It's already there. It has never gone away. They are it.

How do you get around that one as an Anglo-Catholic?

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Edward Green
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# 46

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A slightly ironic cross post.

There has been a long history in western Christianity of wishing to restore the early church. However in general it has been rooted in the church fathers ...

Historically this has been a response to 'errors' in medieval Catholicism and the Reformation.

Today perhaps it has be based in a wider perception of 'apostolic' Christianity.

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Ramarius
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On a personal level the 'big prize' is communities of believers who do an effective job of living out the principles espoused by Jesus and the apostles. We descend into silliness when we suggest there was a NT 'model' church that we can 'restore'. We get a few insights into NT church life, most of which are addressing issues in the churches. That's the chimera.

There are some emphases NF has brought or highlighted that are, in a good way, provocative to other churches. Our emphasis on grace and freedom in Christ is good, as is the fact we our reasonably successful in a dedicated emphasis on scripture whilst being open to charismatic practice.

In our early days, whilst we couldn't say we were unique in these emphases we could say that unlike other larger movements we were consistent in their application across all our churches. But I think we're starting to realise that that was partly to do with the size of the movement. Consistency is easier when there aren't so many of you. As we're starting to grow (and yes are still pretty small) we're starting to see different emphases emerging. Some churches are being strongly influenced by Bethel's approach to ministry, whilst our church planting programme is drawing on good practice from a wide range of churches in the UK and beyond. And we are starting to invite as leaders in our churches, people from a non NF background. That's a recognition that we are not raising up enough leaders in house to meet our vision objectives.

Responding to myself on this there is still an unanswered question on how all this is affecting our leadership style and what exactly the role of our new 'apostles' will be. I'll get back to you on that later in the year.

But in the meantime, other thoughts on what's good and can be better and what else we frankly need to change are still welcome.

Ps - Edward - fascinated by your 'cross post' and have become a fan of your blog.

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