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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: HEAVEN: Through the Lens
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
Well, after a bit of a fright yesterday I would just like to say "Hooray for Kingsfold", who today managed to fix the seemingly-broken autofocus on my kit lens. It's only been a day and I couldn't believe how much I was missing it! (TME did point out that this would be a good time to read the instructions and learn to use it properly, which is very true, but I'm just delighted to have it back again).
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Auntie Doris
Screen Goddess
# 9433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
(TME did point out that this would be a good time to read the instructions and learn to use it properly, which is very true, but I'm just delighted to have it back again).
I have a better idea. Let him read the instructions and then he can pass on the things you really need to know.
It's how I learn to use things these days ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Auntie Doris x
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"And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power." - iGeek in response to a gay-hater :)
The life and times of a Guernsey cow
Posts: 6019 | From: The Rock at the Centre of the Universe | Registered: May 2005
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
That wouldn't work, he doesn't do instructions! (he just realises that I should!).
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Fujifilm S1800 still not back from Chennai but have firm promise that if it is not there when I call on Saturday afternoon then they will give me a new one!
I really, really don't mind which as long as I have one or the other - although a little devil sitting on my shoulder is whispering in my ear that if it isn't back I could add some more money into the equation and get something a bit better.
Get thee behind me, Satan!
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
In sotto voce: Canon G12, Canon G12.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
liBuddha, you're a bad influence!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
A Purple Rumped Sunbird [local hummingbird] has just had a look in the room, it perched on the security bars on the north window and stared around a bit - I reached, very slowly and gently, for a camera and then, of course , it flew away!
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Actually I can get a DSLR and two lenses for the price of one of those - tempting! But I imagine they're pretty sure my camera will be back or they wouldn't have made so firm a promise - whatever happens I'll be happy.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Canon G12 looks good, but what about the superzoom Panasonic or Fuji cameras? Many of the good P&S photographers are using Canons or the Lumix or Finepix cameras.
I have had a family of magpies grow up, noisily, in the hedge near me. They often sit temptingly on the bare branches outside my bedroom window performing beautifully - and I just don't have the zoom to do anything other than watch, so I really want more zoom than 3x! And the new Panasonic Lumix compact cameras are offering 16x optical zoom. There's one version that's competing with the G12 on price that's offering 24x zoom and the Fuji equivalent is offering 30x optical zoom.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
The problem with big zoom is camera shake so a tripod becomes essential unless there is a LOT of light! I was looking at the 30x Fuji online this morning - the one I should get back on Saturday has 18x, starting from a good wideangle.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The larger zoom range the lower the overall quality. More aberration, less sharp, etc. A pocket camera is already dealing with the handicap of a tiny sensor.
I chose the G12 for the controls and the low-light performance.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The G12 has a slightly larger sensor than the typical pocket camera. These means larger sensor sites, which should equal better image quality. I did a test today. My aps-h sensor dslr-8 megapixel vs my G12 -10 megapixel. I will link to the results when I have time to upload. While this is not exactly the same as one pocket vs. another, it should demonstrate the concept. If it does not, I think there will be tears.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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nomadicgrl
Shipmate
# 7623
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Posted
A professional photographer I know is getting really amazing shots with this little camera but he can also afford to fund his equipment obsession much better than I can.
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The care of another,even material, bodily care is spiritual in essence. Bread for myself is a material question; bread for my neighbor is a spiritual one.- Jacques Maritain
Posts: 437 | From: Living in the land of Anne (with an e) | Registered: Jun 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I should hope so. The sensor on the x-100 is the same size as most DSLRs. Plus having only a prime lens generally means better quality as it does not have to adjust for zoom. Also given the cost!
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Alright, here is the promised link. The password is sof123 The files are not resized so are a bit large. To be honest, the G12 fared better than I had thought it might. Though the real test would be to see how they perform blown up huge. A friend of mine creates promotional material 6 metres by 8 metres from two images from a Canon 5D. I do not think the G12 would be capable of this. Since most of us do not do this level of enlargement, the issue is really exposure range.
The G12 was released Sept. 2010. It has a 43mm sq. sensor and is 10 mega-pixels.
The 1D Mark II was released in early 2004. It has a 548mm sq. sensor and is 8 mega-pixels.
Why is this important? The 1D is operating at a handicap as far as pixels and older processing hardware and software.
The g12's handicap is sensor size.
The test is not scientific, I stood in the same place and snapped the pics. I attempted to be equal in the processing.
I uploaded one image each unprocessed. One image each processed a small bit to show more detail. And one image each cropped. ISTM there is more information available with the 1D, and it has an edge in sharpness.
ETA:The B&W uploaded to my 365 project is the same from the 1D. It is processed differently; burned and dogged to enhance for B&W.
[ 01. July 2011, 02:54: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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nomadicgrl
Shipmate
# 7623
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Posted
Thanks for doing that lilBuddha, very interesting. I found the chart size for sensors informative too. I definitely noticed the difference, especially once processed - but like you said the G12 did quite well. Though I don't blow up pictures very big, if I print them at all, I find I like having the option to crop in as substantially as possible. Since I prefer working with my prime lens, it means I can't always use my feet "zoom lens" option and will need to crop in for the composition/detail I need.
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The care of another,even material, bodily care is spiritual in essence. Bread for myself is a material question; bread for my neighbor is a spiritual one.- Jacques Maritain
Posts: 437 | From: Living in the land of Anne (with an e) | Registered: Jun 2004
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
So how is learning a new camera like having a dog? ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Dogs need walking and I've been taking the camera out everyday when possible too.
I'm feeling better for the walking myself as well. When I moved here, three months ago to this day, I dropped a very heavy part of a bedframe on my toes. Broke a couple and obliterated a nail. It's only now that I've been able to resume what used to be a daily routine of walking and toes still ache.
I've been trying to take something daily for Project 365 so am glad to get back out, weather permitting.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Yes, Lothlorien, that's what I've found too - the getting out has been good. Even this week when I haven't been feeling wonderful and lots of the pictures have been in the work garden, just sitting outside in the sun for half an hour trying to capture insects has been good.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I posted this in Styx but I'll post it here too. Are there any photographer Shipmates in the Dallas, TX or Dayton, OH area? If so, we need photos snapped for MW reports on one church in each of those cities. Please PM me if you can help. Thanks.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Went to see a very good exhibition today of large-scale photos of Britain From the Air. There are some fascinating images, hope the link works for you.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Thanks Ariel, that was great! I liked the Vaughan Williams [maundering about in minor tones] in the background, too.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
My thanks as well. Lovely.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
I went to the city today and my Fuji is still not back from repair so I got a little bit assertive and after a bit of a kerfuffle now have a Nikon P100 which feels considerably more substantial than the Fuji and is certainly more sophisticated despite a small drop in pixels - I happily paid a little extra and they dated the receipt and the warranty card for today rather than when I bought the Fuji. It will take me a while to learn it but that will probably be fun anyway.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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nomadicgrl
Shipmate
# 7623
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Posted
Congrats on the new camera Welease, I looked at an online review and they said it did great macro work, so with all the flowers and butterflys and bugs where you live it should be some good shots!
It always is a learning curve to switch to a different camera and manufacturer - good excuse to shoot!
[ 05. July 2011, 18:23: Message edited by: nomadicgrl ]
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The care of another,even material, bodily care is spiritual in essence. Bread for myself is a material question; bread for my neighbor is a spiritual one.- Jacques Maritain
Posts: 437 | From: Living in the land of Anne (with an e) | Registered: Jun 2004
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
First planes and cars, now cameras. #1 son sent me this link today about a simulator for cameras. Link is on page I've linked to. USeful for those like me who are novices with DSLRs
Manipulate the settings and see instantly on screen the effects.
Here.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
That simulator is fun, thanks.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
I am finding that some days the photo picks itself but other days it's quite a struggle to make a choice. Yesterday Nephew Person came over just as I was downloading shots to the PC, I already thought that the napping cats was the one and as soon as he saw it he said he didn't need to see any others!
Today, and it is only early afternoon, I think my choice is already made but I'll try it out on him and see how he feels. I am hoping top get him to join as he has access to cameras, has a good eye and takes some great shots.
One of the nice things about this Nikon is the Lithium Ion battery that recharges just when plugged into the PC - has anyone here got experience with these about how long they last and whether or not I should buy a spare? Any help or advice gratefully received.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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nomadicgrl
Shipmate
# 7623
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Posted
Lothlorien,
Thanks for the simulator. It's fun and I'm going to use it to figure out ideal settings for different lighting conditions and write them down to carry with me as guidelines.
Welease, I don't have experience with the plug into computer charging, I do know that I've found a spare battery invaluable when travelling more than a weekend away and useful even when at home.
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The care of another,even material, bodily care is spiritual in essence. Bread for myself is a material question; bread for my neighbor is a spiritual one.- Jacques Maritain
Posts: 437 | From: Living in the land of Anne (with an e) | Registered: Jun 2004
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
I left the camera plugged into the PC whilst I gave Vishnu his tuition and when it was over I came back upstairs and it was all charged. Way to go!!
Thanks for the advice, I shall get a spare battery next week when I am in the city.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Tough to say how long a battery will last on any individual charge. Depends on zooming, whether the camera finds focusing difficult, image stabilization/vibration reduction etc. A spare battery is terrific to have.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
One of the nice things about this Nikon is the Lithium Ion battery that recharges just when plugged into the PC - has anyone here got experience with these about how long they last and whether or not I should buy a spare? Any help or advice gratefully received.
I've just bought a similar Nikon Coolpix that does that too. Actually, I'd have been happier with a conventional charger. I've since bought one and a spare battery as I'm often out and about - can't guarantee I'll be conveniently near a pc when I want to charge up.
I'm a bit worried about the "top-up" effect. The camera will recharge after uploading photos, but my memories of rechargeable batteries are that I thought you were supposed to let them drain before recharging, rather than continually top up, because they last longer than way. Don't know if this is still true. Well, I guess I'll find out.
I'm thinking, incidentally, of saving up for a newer Canon DSLR. Mine does 6MP and while it's been fine and useful as a first DSLR, I'm beginning to realize its limitations.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
I think it is the NiMH batteries that don't take topping up so well, the Lithium Ion ones are supposed to be better, he says optimistically.
I was invited to a leaving do type thing in the village last night and the flash on this Nikon is loads better than any camera I have had before, but that, of course, takes loads of battery power as well.
I'm going to have to actually post some of my 365 rejects on Flickr - one day I'll get organised!
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
WW is correct about the lithium vs. NiMH. The lithium do not like to be discharged fully, but you can top them off as often as you like. If you intend to store a lithium battery for any length of time, it is best taken down to~ 40%. Have a link with explanations, but am on my mobile.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
OK - technical question - how do people do selective colour? I've just had a go, using GIMP and ran out of time*. I did it by
- cropping what I wanted to use as the picture (street shot)
- copying it in colour,
- cutting out the figures I wanted in colour, roughly and rubbing out to get closer,
- desaturating the full picture that's remaining as background with a bit of fiddling to soften it
- pasting back the coloured people cut out picture as a new layer
What I didn't do and should have was blurred the edges of the two pictures put together.
Does that sound right? or are there other ways of doing it?
* I really shouldn't be doing this project, I'm in the middle of a major row because I've dropped something - with agreement - and others disagreed.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Ooh, I have not used GIMP in a bit. Those are methods I would use in Photoshop. I might also select by colour, deselecting the bits I did not want. Photoshop has a history brush. One can perform an action such as desaturation then selectively remove the effect with the history brush. Time consuming almost always is.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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leonato
Shipmate
# 5124
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
OK - technical question - how do people do selective colour? I've just had a go, using GIMP and ran out of time*. I did it by
I think the best way to do this is:
Copy the original picture as a new layer.
On the new layer use the foreground select tool from the toolbox to select the foreground you want in colour.
Tidy up this selection. Cut the selection out of the new layer and create a new layer with just this foreground.
Desaturate the original background layer.
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leonato... Much Ado
Posts: 892 | From: Stage left | Registered: Oct 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Thanks both - I was just checking if I'd worked the technique out because that's what I thought I should do. Just how do some of the major players on 365 do the processing work on the pictures that they produce, take the pictures and hold down a job?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Hmm, while experience and choice of image might play a part, I suspect they may not be meeting all the conditions you list.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
OK - technical question - how do people do selective colour? I've just had a go, using GIMP and ran out of time*.
Does your camera have an option for this? Mine will let you pick the colour you want, and desaturate everything else - does yours have this function?
If not, in either Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro, I'd select the object I wanted to colour (or keep the same colour), then invert the selection, so that everything but that object was selected. Desaturate that, then un-invert to re-select your original object (the greyscale will remain where it is) and adjust the colour as you please. This was how I did the red travel mug photo, although the colour on that was natural and needed no amendment.
[ 07. July 2011, 19:17: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Ariel - mm, no to the camera - I'm using this so no, there are no options for selective colour on the camera.
I'm using GIMP as I'm on Linux. There is a way of reversing things, I did see it when I was trying out something else.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
OK. I recently had to buy a new compact camera and I went, as usual, for Nikon Coolpix. I'd recommend this one if you're thinking of getting a new digital. The quality and clarity are significantly better than the previous models and the colour options and filters are nice to have. You even get to do fish-eye on this one.
I've never used GIMP, and have no idea what it's like to work with, but do have two (by now, ancient) graphics packages which do the job. If you can select, invert, desaturate etc etc the whole process only takes about 5 minutes. The tricky bit is the selection, but once you've got that the rest is straightforward.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I complicated things on the picture I was using, because it wasn't just one colour I used. I was trying to pick out a couple from the background of shop windows, because they got lost in the detail both in colour and black and white, so it wasn't just one colour I was selecting.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I reinstalled GIMP. With this program. it would seem the easiest way to do a simple selective colour photo is to use the paintbrush tool in saturation mode. Select a large brush to clear most of the image, then shift to a small brush with soft edges to clear round the parts you wish to keep in colour.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
I am now running a Nikon compact and a Nikon Prosumer and am impressed by not only the robust feel of the kit but also the quality of the snaps. Very nice.
I have CorelDRAW Graphics Suite 12 and Adobe Photoshop CS2 but really don't know how to use them properly. Is GIMP easier or just a freeware equivalent?
When it comes to stuff like this I am a bear of very little brain.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Can not compare Corel, it has been far too long since I have used it.GIMP is very powerful, but I would give the edge to Photoshop. Keep in mind, however, I have used Photoshop much longer and am running CS5.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I complicated things on the picture I was using, because it wasn't just one colour I used. I was trying to pick out a couple from the background of shop windows, because they got lost in the detail both in colour and black and white, so it wasn't just one colour I was selecting.
Shouldn't make any difference in a graphics package if you have put a selection around the entire, possibly multicoloured object(s) that you want to keep that way.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
For those who qualify, Adobe offer an educational discount. ~ 1/3 to 1/2 the normal cost. Occasionally they will have further discounts. Still not inexpensive, though.
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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nomadicgrl
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# 7623
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Posted
Yes, the educational discount can be great when you qualify. I no longer do, but they did send me a coupon for Lightroom at 75% off, because I had bought Elements 9 early that year. I couldn't resist. For once signing up for a company mailing list actually paid off.
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The care of another,even material, bodily care is spiritual in essence. Bread for myself is a material question; bread for my neighbor is a spiritual one.- Jacques Maritain
Posts: 437 | From: Living in the land of Anne (with an e) | Registered: Jun 2004
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