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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Styx: EVERYBODY READ: Policy change
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Ben26:
Also pleased about the policy as it's not fair if people are faced with situations that they have no clue how to handle. Esp if they hardly know the person.
Ben26
What's unfair about it?
No one is forced to respond to these people if they don't want to or feel clueless about the subject. Those people who feel uncomfortable or who deal with these things in their professional lives don't have to read that particular thread. People come to these boards and talk about all sorts of problems including health problems. No one complained about the calling God to Hell thread or the problems expressed on it. Why is this different? I have no clue about some of the theological problems presented on this board but I don't complain that it's not fair to be faced with them.
I think your final line "especially if we hardly know the person" is probably the real issue here.
Erin quote: quote:
I don't think the ship is turning anyone away, just encouraging them to seek other help...
I don't see much difference and I think someone who is already feeling worthless and unloved is going to take that "encouragement to seek other help" as rejection.
Nope. Knowing someone doesn't effect whether I am prepared to talk to them one little bit. Otherwise I wouldn't have joined the ship in the first place. Shipmates and apprentices who feel suicidal should, IMHO, seek professional help - esp as those not qualified to give help may give them bad advice.
Your right in that no-one is forced to read or respond to threads or posts but I was thinking of the cafe, which is a different story*. Erin hasn't said depressed people aren't welcome here and I am pretty sure that isn't her meaning. If your in the cafe with a depressed person, it might be awkward for some people to know what to do or say. It may make them feel responsible for "saving" that person - but they aren't responsible. It's not their decision whether someone else does something silly.
Ben26
*note to the shipmates I have talked to in the cafe about depression. No, I am not getting at you and it was fine. If I didn't want to talk, I wouldn't have. Please don't take this the wrong way.
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Well, setting aside you attributing someone else's words to me, Twilight I'm having a real problem with your posts. You're drawing a whole bunch of conclusions that are completely unwarranted from what I've said so far and taken a policy in which we encourage members seeking professional help while using the Ship as a tertiary means of support to us closing the door on anyone with any mental illness.
Complete non sequitur, Twilight, and I don't appreciate you making us out to be the bad guys for encouraging people to actually get real live help. It kinda pisses me off.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Well done sophs ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Erin - im jealous...... is sophs the **only** one to get your affection?? ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Call me cold and hard if you want, but when people post that they are feeling suicidal, I don't generally assume the worst. I tend to think that if they're completely certain they will do it, they're probably not going to post it on a bulletin board, in case anyone stops them. Posting is more likely to be a cry for help - and as such, should be directed to someone who is adequate to cope.
I cant remember the statistics precisely - but didnt they find out that most people who commit suicide **have** tried to see a doctor in the last 6months/ ask for help somewhere etc...
I think its quite posssible that people *will* reach out on the ship/ other sites looking for help *before* trying to commit suicide/ self-harm etc. And although its certainly not our *responsibility* to 'rescue' these people, I think its only valuing people to take them seriously. Ie ask if they really do intend to.. / suggesting the samaritans website/ phone local hospital.
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
I've been in two minds about the new policy. I am, I think, one of the people Erin referred to when creating the new policy (because of certain posts I made). I am now getting professional help... but I'm not sure I would have done so were it not for some wonderful shipmates convincing me it was a good idea.
I'm well aware (now) that the internet is no substitute for therapy. And I think the way people responded to me was perfect... gently informed me that the ship couldn't give me that kind of support, and that people here would be sympathetic but that I really needed to see someone about it.
Basically, my main worry is that because of the new policy, some people might start turning people away with just the phrase "Get help". We should tell people that no, we can't help them get better - but we (as a community) are still here for them in every other sense, and that we still want them as a member.
There's a big difference between being there for people and taking responsibility for them. I dunno - I'm just concerned that some people interpreting this policy might cause it to end up with sweeping certain disorders under the carpet. There's a poster in college that says "When John broke his ankle, his mates all supported him. But when he tried to do himself in, they didn't want to know." If someone posted that they had broken their ankle, but they weren't going to hospital to fix it, we'd politely inform them that there was no chance the ship could help mend it (unless you count blind faith... but remember the joke about the priest in the flood?), but we'd definitely be sympathetic, probably inviting them into the Oh Sit Down thread after they get back from hospital or whatever. That's how we should react to mental disorders... we can't help and you should find someone who can, but we're not going to discount your pain unless you refuse to help yourself.
quote:
Originally posted by sophs:
quote:
I don't see much difference and I think someone who is already feeling worthless and unloved is going to take that "encouragement to seek other help" as rejection.
I don't think Erin was suggesting just telling people to go and seek other help and leaving them on their own...[/qb]
That's how I worry that some people might interpret the policy. In a society like ours, where mental disorders are often trivialised or ignored, getting help is a really big step. Heck, it took me nearly three years between realising I needed it and getting it. I just worry that people will see this policy and ignore anyone who mentions certain topics on the grounds that "The hosts won't let me talk to you until you get help."
Regarding legal issues, btw... couldn't the ship just post "Ship of Fools is not responsible for any user submitted content posted on our forums"? That'd get round the 'no copyrighted stuff' policy too, wouldn't it?
Amorya
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
Amorya
I had never noticed you posting anything suicidal ![[Embarrassed]](icon_redface.gif)
I think the policy may be more to discourage people from taking on 'caseloads', than to discourage people from posting when they are sad/pissed off etc.
It seems from Erin's answer to me above, that anyone whose posts imply they are feeling very very low and can't cope and are asking a website to help them, will be getting a helpful and caring email from an admin to direct them to apropriate sources of help in the real world.
That's a bonus I think.
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
Amorya
I had never noticed you posting anything suicidal
I don't do straight up posting, I tend to make oblique references. I'm not going to repeat things here - let's just say I said enough to make a few people worried about me.
quote:
I think the policy may be more to discourage people from taking on 'caseloads', than to discourage people from posting when they are sad/pissed off etc.
If that's what it succeeds in doing, then I'm all for it. I was more worried about it being misinterpreted to mean that any mention of suicide or mental illness was banned.
quote:
It seems from Erin's answer to me above, that anyone whose posts imply they are feeling very very low and can't cope and are asking a website to help them, will be getting a helpful and caring email from an admin to direct them to apropriate sources of help in the real world.
That's a bonus I think.
That would be great.
I've just seen more than one place where such a post would get "That's a banned topic: discussion closed" and no further explanation.
I should have known really, not to expect anything like that from the ship admins. When I first read Erin's message, I was all set to respond in defiance with all guns blazing. But now I think I understand better what the policy is all about.
Amorya
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Erin, I'm sorry I attributed Soph's post to you,someone else just made the same mistake with something I had said. It got a little confusing there for a minute with every post ending with Soph's name. My board doesn't show the names and avatar's on the left unless I scroll vertically.
I didn't mean to suggest that the new policy would be worded in a cruel way, just to remind everyone that people in a state of despair might read the slightest suggestion to seek help elsewhere as a rebuff.
If someone came here and said they had cancer we would probably commiserate; I don't think we would tell them that we weren't oncologists and they should quit wasting time here and go see a specialist. I would hope no one would delete their threads if they continued to post. That can leave anyone feeling a little disoriented and hurt.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote from Twilight quote:
If someone came here and said they had cancer we would probably commiserate; I don't think we would tell them that we weren't oncologists and they should quit wasting time here and go see a specialist.
If a woman said she had just found a lump on one of her breasts, and she was scared, I would gently tell her to see a doctor immediately.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
quote:
from Arietty's post:
I think the policy may be more to discourage people from taking on 'caseloads', than to discourage people from posting when they are sad/pissed off etc.
That's an excellent description.
quote:
from Ben26's post:
Erin hasn't said depressed people aren't welcome here....
Good grief, if we got rid of all the depressed shipmates, the Ship would probably be deserted (except perhaps for a tiny group cheerfully playing party games in Heaven and a couple of hard-core trolls hanging around Purgatory and Hell ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ).
quote:
from Twilight's post:
If someone came here and said they had cancer we would probably commiserate; I don't think we would tell them that we weren't oncologists and they should quit wasting time here and go see a specialist.
But if anyone started recommending a particular course of treatment for the cancer, they would be asked to stop. This is exactly the point.
Where did anyone say that the response should be to tell the depressed person he or she "...should quit wasting time here..."? There is nothing in the policy that says that.
quote:
Twilight again:
I would hope no one would delete their threads if they continued to post. That can leave anyone feeling a little disoriented and hurt.
Again, where does it say anything about deleting threads? Not to mention the fact that the Ship doesn't delete threads until they have been inactive for at least two weeks, so why are you even bringing this up, since it doesn't happen here?
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Did I read a different OP than everyone else? Italics mine.
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
The line is this: the Ship is in no way to be used as a substitute for counseling services -- be they legal, medical, psychological, psychiatric or spiritual. Posts which seek to elicit such responses are very strongly discouraged, and repeated posts along those lines will be deleted.
Now, to the second part. No matter how much we care, interactions on an electronic bulletin board are wholly inadequate to accomplish significant psychological recovery. Because this is sometimes difficult to see, we are instituting a policy: effective immediately, Ship of Fools' bulletin boards are neither appropriate nor adequate venues for suicidal ideations. Do not waste precious time by posting here -- if you suspect that your feelings of hopelessness or despair are more than just a reaction to a difficult time in your life or normal spiritual angst, or you think about suicide, then you need professional help, immediately, and you can't get that here.
The Ship is not the place to post those feelings, not only for the aforementioned legal reasons, but also because this is a bulletin board with open, unfettered access.
The idea that precious time is wasting seems curious to me. A person can't commit suicide and post on the internet at the same time. Professional help often isn't available until morning. If posting here is what gets someone through the night then how can it be helpful to tell them to go away? As for the open access, since I don't believe depression is a shameful secret to be hidden from others - I don't get that.
Maybe I've misunderstood every word of the OP. If I have then someone else might also.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
The stuff about posts being deleted, Twilight, was in reference to those seeking -- and I quote -- "legal, medical, psychological, psychiatric or spiritual" counseling services. So, to make it perfectly clear, any post that seeks counseling services on the Ship will be deleted.
quote:
Amorya said:
Regarding legal issues, btw... couldn't the ship just post "Ship of Fools is not responsible for any user submitted content posted on our forums"? That'd get round the 'no copyrighted stuff' policy too, wouldn't it?
No.
I acknowledge that you two have disagreements with the policy. This has been passed by Ship's Counsel, and this is how it is. I'm sorry, I'm not going to open the Ship up to liability for encouraging someone to use us as a poor substitute for much-needed therapy. If someone really needs an intervention, posting here IS wasting time as they have no guarantee there's going to be anyone around here anyway.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by thegreent:
I cant remember the statistics precisely - but didnt they find out that most people who commit suicide **have** tried to see a doctor in the last 6months/ ask for help somewhere etc...
Maybe so. I'm just speaking from my own experience. I avoided going to a doctor or asking for help during the run up to my own attempt 20 years ago. If anyone had asked me whether I felt suicidal I would have lied to reassure them. I was scared stiff of possibly ending up in a psychiatric hospital, and I didn't want to bother people by telling them about my feelings, or, when it came to the crunch, have anyone stop me. As it happened, it didn't work, but I'd meant it to.
Having said that, I agree with the second part of your post, although the inquiry as to intention would need to be worded carefully.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Hmmm...
We need a seesaw smiley. I see good aspects to the new policy, and I have *no* worries about the intent of the hosts/admins. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
I am concerned, though, about how the policy might be perceived by people in trouble, and how shipmates might choose to act on it. Some of the posts on this thread--and, to a certain extent, the OP--SOUND as if no discussion of personal problems, past or present, especially depression, is welcome. I did read the OP and the thread carefully, and was *not* looking to read anything particular into it.
I've been suicidal. I know others who have been, and I did lose one friend that way. My personal policy is to *always* take it seriously. I may just say something as simple as "don't", "I care", "please hang on". And I've had people tell me how glad they were I did that. Some people tell me they weren't serious, but sometimes people who are serious deny it. I'd rather take it all seriously, than not take it seriously enough and be wrong.
A question--not just because of the OP, but because of some of the comments here: What about my "Brainstorming" thread in All Saints? It's about my ongoing personal situation. Is that endangered?
Please understand: I'm not yelling at anyone--just thinking and pondering.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by golden key:
I am concerned, though, about how the policy might be perceived by people in trouble, and how shipmates might choose to act on it. Some of the posts on this thread--and, to a certain extent, the OP--SOUND as if no discussion of personal problems, past or present, especially depression, is welcome. I did read the OP and the thread carefully, and was *not* looking to read anything particular into it.
That's exactly what I was trying to get at.
quote:
Erin wrote:
I acknowledge that you two have disagreements with the policy. This has been passed by Ship's Counsel, and this is how it is. I'm sorry, I'm not going to open the Ship up to liability for encouraging someone to use us as a poor substitute for much-needed therapy. If someone really needs an intervention, posting here IS wasting time as they have no guarantee there's going to be anyone around here anyway.
You're missing my point, I think. (Not that my point was very clear, when I was posting late at night and was decidedly ambivalent about the policy.)
I know that the ship is no substitute for councelling. I fully recommend that we don't attempt to take on responsibility for someone in that state. What I don't recommend is turning them away for any mention of mental illness or whatever. As I said before, we should treat it like someone with a physical illness - we can't make it all better (and we should make that very clear), but we can provide a friendly ear when the pain is getting you down, same as we would for anyone else with any other problems.
Amorya
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
The question is whether we can provide a friendly ear, much as we might like to. I was in the cafe one time when someone came in and the discussion instantly changed to the mental health problems they were experiencing. I am not denigrating the validity of anyone's experiences but what had been a lighthearted chat with a few others suddenly became an intense dialogue between two people about their experiences of schizophrenia. I felt quite out of my depth on this one. There was nothing I could say, and an attempt to brighten up the conversation or divert it to some more frivolous topic would have been inappropriate at that point as they clearly needed to talk. I made my excuses and left.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
But nowhere in Erin’s various posts on this subject does it say that any discussion of personal problems / depression is unwelcome. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
IMO, the policy is designed to prevent Shipmates attempting to use the Ship as a substitute for professional help. But it doesn’t stop Shipmates asking for support from the community while they are plucking up courage to speak to someone; going through the process of finding the right treatment or receiving it. And reporting on their progress. (Please correct me if I have mis-understood, but it is a subtle and crucial difference).
Twilight wrote:
quote:
I didn't mean to suggest that the new policy would be worded in a cruel way, just to remind everyone that people in a state of despair might read the slightest suggestion to seek help elsewhere as a rebuff.
Or it might be just what they need to hear. Sometimes it takes an outsider to point out something that our friends and family are too close to a situation to see (or too scared of the reaction to do).
Any such suggestion would be made privately so no one else on the Ship would be aware of it. And I trust the Admins to do it in the best way possible.
Golden Key wrote:
quote:
I am concerned, though, about how the policy might be perceived by people in trouble, and how shipmates might choose to act on it. Some of the posts on this thread--and, to a certain extent, the OP--SOUND as if no discussion of personal problems, past or present, especially depression, is welcome. I did read the OP and the thread carefully, and was *not* looking to read anything particular into it.
As I said, I don’t think that’s the intention. And I would hope that if Shipmates felt that another poster was crossing the line they would speak to a Host / Admin privately about it and leave them to deal with it rather than post something publicly.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
But where have we said we're going to be turning people away for mentioning mental illness? I know firsthand the Ship can be a wonderful source of tertiary support -- therapy (and medication if necessary) being primary support, real-life networks of family and friends being secondary. I'm glad when people find that here. I'm less glad, though, when I perceive that people are using it in lieu of the aforementioned primary and secondary support. And I and others have had the very distinct feeling that this has been happening of late.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Jen.
Godless Liberal
# 3131
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I'm less glad, though, when I perceive that people are using it in lieu of the aforementioned primary and secondary support. And I and others have had the very distinct feeling that this has been happening of late.
I agree. I think for some people it is easier to spell something out on a keyboard to people you don't know, and will probably never meet rather than talk to people who you will see again. This doesn't mean it works though. the people you talk to can feel very helpless, especially if they are on the other side of the world and you yourself are not getting the ongoing support you need.
J
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Was Jenny Ann, but fancied being more minimal.
Posts: 5318 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Aug 2002
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dolphy
Lady of Perpetual Responsiblity
# 862
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Posted
This community is truly wonderful, I think most of us would agree. It is a place where we can discuss serious issues, have fun, ask for prayers and also a place where many of us have made great friends, either as a screen name, or in real life. However, although we can be supported through hard times, I certainly found this throughout my court case (see my Trials and Tribulations thead in the depths of All Saints), we can not expect fellow shipmates to take the place of professionals. We can talk about our worries, our troubles, etc, and that is wonderful to be able to do. As has been said before, sometimes it is easier to talk on the ship than in real lfe, as it were but if somebody really does seem to need qualified professional help in whatever shape or form that comes, well, that has to be the way forward. I know that many shipmates are in contact with others, we help, advise and listen as best we can, and more often than not that advice is accepted. This does not mean that we are turning away from others problems, we are merely giving them help. I hope this makes sense, I am not sure that I have portrayed exactly what I am meaning but I hope you get the jist of it!
(P.S. Well done Sophs )
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Looking forward to my rock moving closer again.
Posts: 15134 | From: my camper van | Registered: Jul 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
The question is whether we can provide a friendly ear, much as we might like to. I was in the cafe one time when someone came in and the discussion instantly changed to the mental health problems they were experiencing. I am not denigrating the validity of anyone's experiences but what had been a lighthearted chat with a few others suddenly became an intense dialogue between two people about their experiences of schizophrenia. I felt quite out of my depth on this one. There was nothing I could say, and an attempt to brighten up the conversation or divert it to some more frivolous topic would have been inappropriate at that point as they clearly needed to talk. I made my excuses and left.
I think that the people who wanted to discuss schizophrenia should have gone to another room in the cafe. I don't know how you could have told them that, though.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Any professional counsellor who begins to counsel on this board is not acting like a professional. So, if you get any help, you are getting either bad advice or non-professional help.
For those concerned about the feelings of those calling out for help, anybody crying out for help usually gets the following response"
quote:
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) for you. Can I suggest you get some professional help on this issue?
As a practioner in one of the areas covered by this policy, please let that be enough.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
[QUOTE]I think that the people who wanted to discuss schizophrenia should have gone to another room in the cafe. I don't know how you could have told them that, though.
There was a similar situation in the café recently (discussing serious, though not 'professional help needed' issues) where someone took the rather gracious initiative of saying: "I'm off to the saloon ![[Wink]](wink.gif) ". Those wishing for light chit-chat took the cue and moved over. As new people came in, if it looked like they just wanted to chat they were sent a "private conversation" message quickly summarising what was going on in the Gangway and telling them the fun bits were in the saloon. That seemed to work well.
Alternatively, I suppose a similar private message could have been sent to the 'serious' protagonists.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Bravo sophs!!
[looking for clapping-hands smilie]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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sophs
Sardonic Angel
# 2296
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Posted
[small somewhat random observation]
I've just read through the thread, and found 2 bits that are kinda wierd on the same thread...one is the discussion about whether the ship is turning people away, and other is people saying things like "yay sophs"....Is it me or does one of these show that the other is, at least in some ways, not happening?
[/small somewhat random observation]
Posts: 5407 | From: searching saharas of sorrow | Registered: Feb 2002
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
In my opinion, you've hit the nail on the head, Sophs
May I add my twopenn'orth?
I have great confidence in (and respect for) those who manage the ship and make policy decisions about the way things should be around here. I am sure that no decisions are made on a whim and that changes such as these are discussed thoroughly, with thought, prayer and concern for all involved.
This is a supportive community. Granted not all see it that way, but the majority do and revel in the Christian ethos of the site which makes all welcome (unless they make moves deliberately to jeopardise that welcome)and provides a secure environment through the 10 Commandments. But that very sense of community is, I believe, testament to the conscientious and caring approach of the team which maintains it as well as to the openness and mutual concern of the people who "reside" here.
This policy is not intended to drive people away, in my opinion, nor to straitjacket people into a particular response to need. I think it presents a structure within which we are all able to work. I think it protects those who are at their lowest by directing them towards the people best qualified to help and helping them not to become over-dependent on this inadequate source of support alone. I think it protects those who do care - those who feel out of their depth and helpless in the face of posts about impending self harm, those who feel cornered into a sense of responsibility which circumstances make it impossible to do anything about. In PM I can listen and talk and listen some more and maybe do some good, but when it is posted on the boards I can do nothing but sit and worry.
And if I am totally honest about this, there are even occasionally times when I just don't want to - times when I have come onto the ship for my own stress-relief and escape from being "strong" and this gives me "permission" to state gently that there is more appropriate support available.
This policy does not turn people away, nor does it forbid the offering of help or support. I see it as giving a baseline, and a very wise one. There are those who are unmoved by such cries for help, yes - those people don't need a policy such as this to walk by on the other side. They will do it anyway. Those who care, and that includes the administrative team I know, will continue to care and love and pray and support, but within the security of knowing that they are not expected to act as counsellors or experts in any way, and that it is not being callous to refer people to appropriate support.
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Everyone please keep in mind that this policy is going to be administered by admins alone. We are not saying that shipmates should be responding to depressed or suicidal-sounding posts by saying, "Hey, get help!" If a host sees a post that expresses suicidal ideation, he or she will refer it to the admins. An admin will contact the poster privately and suggest that while Ship of Fools is an excellent source of online support, it cannot and should not take the place of professional help where warranted and of real-life caring friends.
Aside from the legal issues, which are important given the Ship's monetary inability to defend even the most frivolous of suits, suggesting that people who are feeling suicidal get other kinds of help while we continue to provide our own kind of support is really the most caring thing we can do. People will always receive the support this community can give.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Cross-posted with Smudgie - who has grasped exactly what we are trying to do. Thanks!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I've noticed it too Sophs and I see it, not so much as proof of the dependable kindness of the shipmates but as ironic discrepancy.
Here we have you and Dolphy talking about how supportive the ship has been while, at the same time, others are talking about how uncomfortable it was to have their fun times spoiled by some strangers in pain.
Now I've never been to the cafe, my server line is too slow, so I can't picture what it's like there. I do know that one time when I came here feeling upset in the middle of the night I was told by a shipmate (exact quote) "The whole wide world isn't interested in your personal life." I responded angrily and was promptly suspended by the hosts who obviously thought what he had said to me was just fine.
I think it's like this; nice people who have been here a long time like you and Dolphy are treated with sympathy but prickly people who are not well liked or not well known are treated very differently. You have total trust that what they say to these people will be tactful and kind and not cool and dismissive. Me, not so much.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Cross posted with Ruth who has finally given an example of how it would be handled that sounds much nicer than the impression I had from the OP of curt warnings followed by deleted posts.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Cross posted with Ruth who has finally given an example of how it would be handled that sounds much nicer than the impression I had from the OP of curt warnings followed by deleted posts.
Yeah, that sounds about right.
I reckon both me and Erin were misunderstanding each other before... I was concerned about how people would interpret the policy, whereas Erin thought I disagreed with the main gist of it. In response, I think I misunderstood how things were actually going to be handled.
Thanks guys.
Amorya
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Cross posted with Ruth who has finally given an example of how it would be handled that sounds much nicer than the impression I had from the OP of curt warnings followed by deleted posts.
Despite how many posts of mine that specifically said this was not the case.
Gah, I give up.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
Hell, even I read the prayer threads.
So here’s a zany idea. Howza about we all lay off with the criticisms and put-upon italics until the happy day when our prayers are answered and we can hear Erin say "I’m at the finest medical facility in the freakin’ universe and those excrement-for-brains doctors put me through hell waiting to find out that everything’s OK after all." After that, we can all carp away.
And by the way, in what bizarro world galaxy are we living when I have to be the voice of sensitivity and discretion?
Yeah, I know. It doesn’t suit me.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I have no idea what you're talking about Preslyterian but since I'm the last person to use italics maybe you're criticizing me? What are "put upon italics?" Was that one?
I don't read the prayer threads so if the answer to the mystery is there I won't figure it out.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
If you've got a sec and it's not too much trouble, Twilight, you might want to read the prayer thread from May 18th.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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Black Dog
Shipmate
# 2344
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Posted
Don't flame my ass.
i've read this really quick, busy day, and i'm off to bed soon, so sorry if i'm blurring issues.
However from my experience this suicidal thing can often be a joke. And a master troll work at that. Now as i've said i've whizzed thru the details so I can be seen to be missing stuff, so if I go things wrong i appologise. But its an old hand to publish the suicide 'note' stuff. Infact there is alot of humour out on the internet based on topping oneself. I can't think of the website but there are plenty out there that started out as finding humour in killing oneself, only to attract those who actually do want to kill themselves. Stick with this, appologies if I've trod on anyones toes, but these people are out there.
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The difference between love and comfort is that comfort is more reliable and true. Brutal and mocking but always there it is a crutch for enmity's saddest glare.
Posts: 453 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Okay. I did just go read it and frankly I'm very upset to find out that Erin might be very sick. In fact that's why I usually don't read the prayer thread, all of you are very real to me and I get shook up when something like this is going on. I'm sure she'd never believe it but Erin is one of my very favorite people on this board and right now I'm crying for her.
However, Preslyterian:
What you just said and did to me is total bull crap. I come to this board to debate. I seldom post or read below Hell. I mainly stay on Purgatory. Are you saying that before I disagree with anyone I have to check the prayer thread to see if they're sick? Heck, and this just shows how wrong doctors (and I pray Erin's doctor can be) a few months ago my doc was absolutely sure I had melanoma, and it tutned out that I didn't. I happened to get suspended during that time. It didn't help with my anxiety to not have my usual time wasting distraction of the ship to go to but not in a million years would I have expected anyone to know about it or to make it a consideration if they did know. My gosh the OP asks for questions about the policy to be posted here. I thought I was defending mentally ill people from possible hurt, not criticizing Erin. This just totally pisses me off.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
But where have we said we're going to be turning people away for mentioning mental illness"
Keeping in mind that I trust the intent of the hosts/admins, and am just concerned how this might be *perceived* by persons in trouble, and how shipmates might choose to act upon it... These are some of the comments here that I found troubling.
--“The Ship is not the place to post those feelings.” (OP)
--"I don't mean by this that you can't say 'I need cheering up' in the cafe, but unwanted confidences that someone is suicidal are most unfair to other users. It puts us in an impossible situation. "
--"If someone comes into the cafe and says they are suicidal, then a simple "log off and contact a qualified healthcare professional NOW" message is sufficient."
--"Same thing with PMs. We obviously can't police them, as we don't have access to them, but I would hope that people would understand that this is a Ship policy and therefore it is inappropriate to circumvent it using Ship resources."
-"Several people have mentioned going through a Dark Night of the Soul for years or being depressed for a long time. Sometimes it's helpful to understand this about a person, but I agree with Erin--while happiness and health for all is the best possible situation, it can't be achieved by everyone in every case through Ship discussions."
I didn't include posters' names because my issue is with the ideas, not the people.
When you're seriously depressed and need someone to *hear* you (and I'm not talking about counselling), you can hang on every word the other person says. So I'm afraid that if someone is told "don't talk about this any more", no matter *how* kindly, they may feel devalued and ignored. And while I sort of understand the resson for deleting the posts, the person might feel even more devalued and ignored.
quote:
Erin wrote:
I know firsthand the Ship can be a wonderful source of tertiary support -- therapy (and medication if necessary) being primary support, real-life networks of family and friends being secondary. I'm glad when people find that here. I'm less glad, though, when I perceive that people are using it in lieu of the aforementioned primary and secondary support. And I and others have had the very distinct feeling that this has been happening of late.
Yes, but...not everyone has that secondary support from friends/family--and not everyone can get it.
In my particular case, almost all my friends are e-friends. Due to health problems, most of my adult life was spent in work/eat/sleep mode, with no chance for a social life. I've been stuck at home for most of the last couple of years, and don't have the energy to go out and do much.
So I rely on the Net a lot. I've made great friends. And that's how *I* get most of that secondary support.
Just food for thought, ok?
If nothing else, please word the policy very, very carefully.
Thanks for listening!
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Caver
Shipmate
# 4392
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Black Dog:
Don't flame my ass.
i've read this really quick, busy day, and i'm off to bed soon, so sorry if i'm blurring issues.
However from my experience this suicidal thing can often be a joke. And a master troll work at that.
I know Trolls are supposed to be pretty thick-skinned, but it would take a particularly stupid inconsiderate troll to lead somebody on about committing suicide. I have known both people that have committed suicide and others that have wanted to do so. Being there for somebody who is genuinely that desperate is one of the hardest things that anybody can do. It is an incredibly hard, draining, and helpless experience. When they aren’t actually there in person it is even harder. I cannot think of anything more despicable than somebody pretending to feel suicidal for the kicks.
However, I notice that you don’t actually say that you have done that Black Dog so I won’t ask for this thread to be moved to Hell just yet.
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Quote from Annie Day "Could be interested, picking people up on the way down." Now that never happens to me underground :-(
Posts: 104 | From: Leeds, UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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da_musicman
Shipmate
# 1018
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Posted
Okay jumping in the deep end here.I read the new policy as the ship saying its can't help really sick people so you need to go somewhere else for that. We are still willing to pray for you and support you but we can't do anything else so don't expect us too.
Have I missed anything or is that what it says in a nutshell?
Posts: 3202 | From: The Dreaming | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Black Dog:
Don't flame my ass.
And gee, exactly why not? You pop up on this thread, where people have posted taking this issue very seriously, and debating about how to word policies so that they don't hurt people, but convey the information that's needed, and you jump up and down on it, and on peoples' feelings. Saying 'Don't flame me' indicates you know that your comments will come across as flameworthy ones. If you were seriously concerned, a PM to an admin would have worked better.
quote:
However from my experience this suicidal thing can often be a joke. And a master troll work at that.
Yes, these people might be out there. If you had actual concerns, then PMing an admin was the way to go, instead of posting a sweeping generalisation, particularly one which includes several shipmates who have outed themselves on this thread as having posted suicidal ideations. If I had posted to this thread saying 'Yes, I have occasionally posted wanting to hurt myself, and I'm sorry guys' (or whatever) and then had some slackjawed dipshit say 'Yeah, but everyone who ever posts about suicide is trolling' then I'd be feeling really really shitty now.
I'm looking round, but only seeing one troll right now. And I know the advice is: Don't feed the troll, but you cannot make sweeping generalisations like that and not get challenged.
Viki
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Viola
Administrator
# 20
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by da_Musicman:
Have I missed anything or is that what it says in a nutshell?
Nope. Yep.
Well done da_Musicman
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"If ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15
"Commandment number one: shut the hell up." Erin Etheredge 1971-2010
Posts: 4345 | From: West of England | Registered: May 2001
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da_musicman
Shipmate
# 1018
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Viola:
Well done da_Musicman
Yay
Posts: 3202 | From: The Dreaming | Registered: Jul 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by golden key:
When you're seriously depressed and need someone to *hear* you (and I'm not talking about counselling), you can hang on every word the other person says.
I'm probably going to make myself very unpopular with this but... the Ship isn't the place for this. It's really and truly not. Setting aside all of the other issues that went into this decision, by "hanging on every word the other person says", you're assigning a burden to others that they've neither asked for nor agreed to take on.
There are websites out there whose members are happy to take on this sort of burden. They know up front that this is the type of support the site offers and join it willingly. We are not that. I would think that would be fairly obvious from the fact that we have a no-holds-barred forum for knock-down, drag-out fights. We are about open and honest debate, and by encouraging a culture where people hang on others' every word, we are compromising that.
We're NOT trying to drive anyone away. But we have to draw a line to determine what is appropriate for us. This is it.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
This is the sound of my mind being boggled. I'm struggling to read this post:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I've noticed it too Sophs and I see it, not so much as proof of the dependable kindness of the shipmates but as ironic discrepancy...[snip]
You have total trust that what they say to these people will be tactful and kind and not cool and dismissive. Me, not so much.
And then go down a few more and come to this post:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I don't read the prayer threads
and then contain my sense of how ironic it is that on the one hand you find this community cool, insular, and dismissive, and then admit that you do not even bother to read the very threads where the community is at it warmest, most affirming and welcoming.
Wow.
One more thing:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Cross posted with Ruth who has finally given an example of how it would be handled that sounds much nicer than the impression I had from the OP of curt warnings followed by deleted posts.
Sometimes we may not be (or seem) as quick to clear up confusion or answer questions as we could be. Remember that the Administrators all have jobs and other responsibilities in addition to our role here on the Ship.
I hope that it is clear that the Hosts and Administrators are committed to the smooth-running and well-being of this community and its members. We really are. Please try to believe that. Even if you feel a policy decision is one that you personally do not agree with, know that a great deal of thought and consideration and debate (and sometimes argument) lies behind each decision we take. And we make these decisions for what we hope and believe is the greater good of this community and the individuals that compose it.
So before you draw the very worst conclusion, or rely on the very lowest impression you can draw from a policy post like the one at the beginning of this thread, can I ask please for one moment's reflection that we do try to act for the greater good, and to extend the benefit of the doubt?
So rather than assume that the policy Erin outlined must mean "curt warnings and deleted posts" would it be so hard to assume (in Christian charity after all) that our intention (even if you feel it is badly expressed) is caring and compassionate?
HT, Admin
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by golden key:
When you're seriously depressed and need someone to *hear* you (and I'm not talking about counselling), you can hang on every word the other person says.
I'm probably going to make myself very unpopular with this but... the Ship isn't the place for this. It's really and truly not. Setting aside all of the other issues that went into this decision, by "hanging on every word the other person says", you're assigning a burden to others that they've neither asked for nor agreed to take on.
Ok, let me try this again!
What I'm trying to say is that a depressed person is apt to have that "hanging on every word" response to the policy e-mail that they'll get. And to any suggestion of "you can't talk about this here".
And, therefore, all such contact must be worded very carefully, with consideration of the depressed person's state of mind.
FWIW!
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Viola
Administrator
# 20
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Posted
Of course all contact will be worded carefully (which is more than this post will be, given the lateness of the hour). Ruth has given an example above, as have other admins. Other shipmates have also grasped the fact.
We care about our members - but we are in no way set up to deal with all types of issues. We were not formed with that in mind, and though the caring community here is a truly lovely offshoot of the boards, it is not the original function.
No-one is going to be sent away for posting their feelings. Private, individual contact will be made, suggesting their best way forward in their predicament.
(is there an echo in here?)
K.
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"If ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15
"Commandment number one: shut the hell up." Erin Etheredge 1971-2010
Posts: 4345 | From: West of England | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
OK, that I can understand. I've sent out a couple of e-mails already, and it doesn't appear that I've said anything that has alienated or discouraged anyone, though I suppose only time will tell us that.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
quote:
This is the sound of my mind being boggled. I'm struggling to read this post:
You start your post to me by insulting me, implying that my words are so stupid as to boggle your mind and so awful that it is a struggle for you to even read them. This is how I'm used to being addressed on this board.
So is it any wonder that I find the folllowing a little hard to believe.
quote:
would it be so hard to assume (in Christian charity after all) that our intention (even if you feel it is badly expressed) is caring and compassionate?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Twilight, I'm sorry, but you've misread HT's post. He hasn't said or implied that your words are stupid or awful. That's not what "my mind being boggled" means. What it does mean is that he finds your various statements jarring with each other. And I must say, I do as well. On the one hand you complain that people here have been cool and dismissive, and on the other you note that you have not read the All Saints board, which is exactly the place to go if you want to avoid cool, dismissive comments and instead receive warm support.
I'm sorry you had a cancer scare. And believe me, if you're ever going through something so scary anxiety-making again and you want support from people here, the folks in All Saints will welcome you with open arms. At they rate they use the smiley in there, it's a wonder they haven't burned the place down.
Black Dog: while it is true that there are folks out there who think pretending to be suicidal is funny, when someone posts about their suicidal ideations on the boards we have no way of knowing whether they belong to that small group of rather twisted people or whether they are truly troubled. If someone says they feel like dying, we are going to take it seriously and will take the actions Erin discussed and I reiterated. You don't have to take them seriously - but the admins do and will.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
There have been people in the past who have appeared very emotionally dependent on SOF and this has worried me for their sakes. Because it is not a reliable form of support - it can go offline, people may not check in for a number of reasons, and it is not the right medium for advice/counselling/direction. If there are other websites that do provide such things via the bulletin boards I am not sure how effective they can be.
I am sure lot of people do as I do and send the occasional PM to someone if they sound stressed etc saying 'hang in there' or 'this happened to me too' but I would never get involved in anything 'professinal' such as counselling spiritual direction online, not becaus eof the SOF policy (though I would not ignore any SOF policy) but because it isn't helpful to them or to me.
In real life you choose a counsellor and when to be counselled, same with any other 'professional' intervention unless you are so bad that you are 'sectioned' (compulsorily committed to psychiatic care).
I have not notieed anyone giving inappropriate support on the boards but it's slightly worrying if anyone feels that they are responsible in any way for anyone posting here unless there is a 'real life' relationship as well. In which case I think it's more appropriate to ring them up or email them that conduct the 'helping' conversation on the boards. You wouldn't suggest meeting a friend in the middle of a shopping mall to offer care and support.
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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