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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Styx: EVERYBODY READ: Policy change
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mimsey
Shipmate
# 3757
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Posted
I've read through this whole thing now, and I think I agree with the new policy, but at the same time I just can't stop thinking about a story my dad tells, about a time when he lived in a house where the phone number was only one number different from the local suicide hotline.
One night a suicidal guy called the number. My dad answered, and discovered that this guy was in a phone box and on his last 10p (apparently the hotline wasn't free.) So my dad called the phonebox back and spent about an hour talking this guy out of killing himself.
I guess my point is that, while it may well be "unfair" to be expected to provide help, when you meet someone - off the internet or on it - who is seriously considering suicide, especially in such an immediate situation as the cafe, you have to be ready to look after them. I completely agree with suggesting professional help, but at the same if they really wanted to talk and just have someone listen, I don't think I could interrupt/stop them.
I don't know - I suppose every situation is different, and we will just have to approach this with sensitivity and caution, and not judge any situation too fast, policy or no policy.
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Certitude! Certitude! Sentiment! Joie! Paix!
Posts: 217 | From: Deepest darkest Suffolk | Registered: Dec 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
It is one thing to act in this way when circumstances conspire.
It is another for the Ship to set itself up for such circumstances.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Fr Cuthbert
Shipmate
# 3953
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Posted
The internet will help some people cope with grief or bereavement. It is very limited, and so much about careing is about look, physical manner, touch etc.
I have a concern that for some - especially lonely people in their late teens and twenties, internet friends and cyber talk, messaging etc. sadly replaces personal interaction.
A 21 year old young lady of a church I attend, who is painfully quiet and withdrawn in social interaction has built up an internet persona very different from this. No doubt this is an aspect of herself, but it does seem to me a dangerous thing to do.
On a Christian site such as this I am sure it is a good idea to encourage honesty and integrity about oneself. I also hope we may be alert to those for whom a large part of their life may centre around posting to this and other sites.
Here I am not criticising anyone, simply sharing a thought that crossed my mind.
Cuthbert
Posts: 160 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
The Prayer Thread;
I think it's surprising that we are expected to judge the tone and attitude of this entire ship on one thread on one of the ten boards. I don't have the habit of going to All Saints because most of it is about meets that I will never be able to attend. I read the Prayer Thread one time and ended up feeling very drained. I have a prayer circle list from my church and after I go through it each day I don't feel able to do more. I wish I had the time and spiritual energy to pray for everyone in the world everyday but I just don't.
This reminds me of the man (B. M. Smith was it?) who complained about his treatment here and was repeatedly refered to the Fields of Gold Thread as though that was proof that the people on this board are all wonderful, caring people. All it proved was that if you're a really, really great lady and you happen to be dying, then we'll be nice to you. I think the board has to be judged as a whole if it's to be judged at all.
da_Musicman
quote:
Okay jumping in the deep end here.I read the new policy as the ship saying its can't help really sick people so you need to go somewhere else for that. We are still willing to pray for you and support you but we can't do anything else so don't expect us too.
That's pretty much how I read it also and while you and Viola might think that's the perfect thing to say, I think that last line would be rude and hurtful. It presumes that the person you're talking to doesn't know the difference between a doctor and a message board and it jumps in with warnings about the limitations of our caring before it's even asked for. Imagine going to your friend's house with a tale of woe and getting that speech on the doorstep.
Arrietty: quote:
and it is not the right medium for advice/counselling/direction.
I use WebMd very often and have gotten very good advice.
quote:
I would never get involved in anything 'professinal' such as counselling spiritual direction online, not becaus eof the SOF policy (though I would not ignore any SOF policy) but because it isn't helpful to them or to me.
I've found lots of helpful spiritual advice online.
quote:
In real life you choose a counsellor and when to be counselled, same with any other 'professional' intervention unless you are so bad that you are 'sectioned' (compulsorily committed to psychiatic care).
In real life many people cannot afford (or believe they cannot afford) the cost of professional treatment. I went to the doctor a few months ago for the first time in five years because the doctors in this town were not taking new patients. It's just not always as easy as you make it sound to get professional help.
quote:
You wouldn't suggest meeting a friend in the middle of a shopping mall to offer care and support.
I think this is very different. This is quiet and annonymous and just as real and comforting as talking to someone on the phone. Many people don't have friends to meet them anywhere.
I do believe that the policy was made with good intentions; my doubts had to do with the inate tactfulness of a few of the hosts not the kindness of their intentions.
I realize the policy is in place and that this is not a democracy so any opinions expressed by the general ship population are just that - opinions. It's just my humble opinion that it might be tricky wording it so that no feelings are hurt.
In spite of what Preslyterian may think,I didn't post here to criticize anyone. I am a volunteer advocate for the mentally ill (NAMI org.) and have had some training in that area. I was thinking of what's best for them not the feelings of the hosts. I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings but these decisions could mean life or death for someone.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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da_musicman
Shipmate
# 1018
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
da_Musicman
quote:
Okay jumping in the deep end here.I read the new policy as the ship saying its can't help really sick people so you need to go somewhere else for that. We are still willing to pray for you and support you but we can't do anything else so don't expect us too.
That's pretty much how I read it also and while you and Viola might think that's the perfect thing to say, I think that last line would be rude and hurtful. It presumes that the person you're talking to doesn't know the difference between a doctor and a message board and it jumps in with warnings about the limitations of our caring before it's even asked for. Imagine going to your friend's house with a tale of woe and getting that speech on the doorstep.
As I wrote that last sentence I thought someone would pick up on it.For heavens sake I was just trying to clarify the policy in terms I could understand.People seem to be blowing this out of all proportion.Nobody is saying they don't care. Nobody is planning on ostracisieng and belittleing suffering people. What is being said is that the Ship is not the place to come for help.For that you need to go elsewhere.As for all you know the person on the other side of the screen could be a mad axe murderer.
Jumping in with warnings before care has been asked for?I don't know about other people but whenever I see someone posting/saying something personal I assume they are in someway looking for care and support otherwise why say anything?Surely its better to let people know this before they bare their souls and then find out that we can't do anything except for say "Sorry to hear that.I'll pray for you."
With my friend on their doorstep I'd already know they lacked the capacity to help so when they recommended I go elsewhere I'd know they were doing it becasue they cared.I'd still know they wanted to help but realised their limitations.This policy is the ship seeing its limitations and telling everyone about them to protect them.And the reason? The Hosts/Admins genuinely care for those who post here.They don't want to see people getting damged furthur on their ship when with a gentle word they can help point them in the right direction of professionals. Part of careing is knowing when to help and when to direct ot others to help.
There is the legal side as well which I'm very poorly equipped to address but it seems that if the ship doesn't have this policy it leaves itself open to all sort of trouble.People would be able to point their finger at the ship and say "It didn't help.It hurt me" and the ship wouldn't be able to say "We never claimed we could".
With this policy it covers itself but most importantly it helps to protect us. That is current shipmates and those who have yet to join.That is those who want to be part of a community and those who don't.That is those of us who are qualified to help and those who aren't.That is those of us who are hurt and damaged and those that aren't.
Posts: 3202 | From: The Dreaming | Registered: Jul 2001
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Tina
Shipmate
# 63
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Posted
Twighlight, you seem to feel that people here are using double standards.
But then you seem to imply that Shipmates should always be ready to provide any amount of care and support, and that it is wrong to say 'I'm sorry, I don't feel equipped to handle this', and yet you don't read the personal threads in All Saints because you find them too emotionally draining!
I'm not trying to flame you here, just pointing out what looks to me like an inconsistency.
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Kindness is mandatory. Anger is necessary. Despair is a terrible idea. Despair is how they win. They won't win forever.
Posts: 503 | From: South London | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Twilight, I will say this once more, and please listen to me this time. It IS the final word on this subject: while there are other websites out there who may have taken it upon themselves to offer the kind of support and advice you're talking about, we are not one of them. That is a decision made by the editors and administrators, and it will not be revisited, reversed, or altered. We have decided that our scope of services is something entirely different, and we are asking that all of the members on here respect that. I can't see HOW that is a bad thing. Do you go to places like WebMD and demand that you be allowed to debate theoretical theological issues? NO, because they do something different from us. We do something different from them. GET OVER IT.
You may or may not like that, but at this point I really don't care. You have been riding the slippery slope argument ever since you popped in on this thread, and I am starting to think you're being this difficult on purpose. Your objection has been noted. The policy stands as is.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
A quote by me posted to the thread:
quote:
-"Several people have mentioned going through a Dark Night of the Soul for years or being depressed for a long time. Sometimes it's helpful to understand this about a person, but I agree with Erin--while happiness and health for all is the best possible situation, it can't be achieved by everyone in every case through Ship discussions."
I understand that--as written--this could be misinterpreted. Others may have also felt troubled by this part of my post, so I direct my comments to the thread as a whole:
Further in my post I also say:
quote:
It's also possible to pass along a tip or two to someone you feel could use it, while at the same time indicating that they follow up in real life.
Going back to the original quote from me, specially the point that not everyone is going to find health and happiness here at the Ship.... This is simply true. This is not a statement that one shouldn't be honest about their life situation, but a statement that
all the answers may not be here.
When we know that someone is going through a rough time, we know to pray for them, offer advice, encourage them, etc. I don't think that the majority of us want the Ship to be superficially happy or concerned only with theological debate. The Ship is as varied as life itself, and this is good.
Some of us have credentials, some of us have big hearts, some of us have time to be of service or to pray for others. There are many ways to support a person going through a rough time, and one of them is to encourage people to broaden their search for answers and help, especially if the situation seems dangerous.
We can give only what we have to give at the time, and then suggest that our help is limited. Referral is one of the foundations of many helping/healing professions. At it's best, it is a way to get people proper care.
Used in this way, it serves both the one doing the referral and the one being referred, and used in this way, it can make the Ship even more supportive.
Of course, we can't control how others are going to interpret our concern. One person might interpret the suggestion to seek RL professional help as an encouragement while another might interpret it as a rejection.
And yet, a sympathetic suggestion to seek professional help might well be made by a minister or priest or a devoted friend in RL, so I don't find the policy as outlined and clarified by Admins on this thread to be that much different.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
I can't believe how long it took me to compose my post since several others have posted since I began. Such are the ways of a discussion board. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
Remembering my own experience with "damaged" people - addicts of various kinds as well as those with mental illnesses - I think it has to be borne in mind that some of the people posting this kind of message may actually be suffering from a different form of mental disturbance - and they're posting in the way they do just to wind us up.
Problem is of course, you just can't tell.
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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Annie P
Ship's galley maid
# 3453
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Posted
I have read this thread, said "Jolly good" to the policy, and therefore thought that would be the end of the matter and I wouldn't feel the urge to post. But anyway...
I'm not sure if people are getting confused here, but just to try and clarify further, this policy (it seems to me) pertains to a particular situation.
People on the ship will always look out for others, and care and pray for others, so far as it is possible. However, when it comes to people feeling suicidal and espressing this on the boards, publicly, or even expressing feelings of extreem depression, and expecting fellow posters to respond, I believe that's when this policy will kick in.
I know for certain that I cannot help people in the best way who need help like that. Therefore I am glad that we will legit be able to say to people - please go and seek professional help.
I too, like Smudgie says, come here sometimes just for relaxation and care myself, (not in the way we're talking about here). Occasionally I've come away drained and concerned about individuals (through my own choice, please don't get me wrong, I would have helped what ever) so for me, this is here to protect caring types as well as those who are in need.
This helps two sets of people
1. Those who would seek to care for people, who should know that it is not their responsibility for someone's actions.
2.Those who need professional physiacriatric help.
All people are supported here, in so many different ways, and I know that will continue. We need a safety valve for serious cases, and this policy will help make sure we know where we all stand. It's not cruel, it doesn't stop the care in other ways, and I'm sure that in the future, you'll be glad that the admins have decided to take the decision.
It will be the admins who will, in the best possible way, contact people who they believe need that gentle nudge, NOT shipmates, so no one should feel the responsibility (bar them) to take actions. If you are unsure about how this will work, then I suggest you let some time go by and see how it all pans out. Then if there is anything going on which you still think is unfair, I would take it up with the appropriate people.
As for Molly - I don't think that was a stand alone case. If you can stand to take the time and look at many different threads - Depression thread, Calling God to Hell, Prayer Request thread, Sit down - you will see a variety of people posting helpful, encouraging things to many different people's needs. Even some of the more difficult customers here find their requests taken note of. It doesn't just take a great lady with an amazing personality. If it did depended on a persons character, what a shallow bunch of Christians we would be.
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Older now, but not necessarily wiser.
Posts: 3248 | From: stockton-on-tees | Registered: Oct 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tina:
Twighlight, you seem to feel that people here are using double standards.
But then you seem to imply that Shipmates should always be ready to provide any amount of care and support, and that it is wrong to say 'I'm sorry, I don't feel equipped to handle this', and yet you don't read the personal threads in All Saints because you find them too emotionally draining!
I'm not trying to flame you here, just pointing out what looks to me like an inconsistency.
Tina, I've not at any time suggested that someone stay on a thread or talk to someone who makes them feel at a loss or uncomfortable, in fact, I think the example given of people in the chat room quietly going to the saloon when the conversation got too heavy was a very good one and probably what should be done.
When the day comes where I go to the Prayer Thread and say, "Please quit posting here, we are not able to cure your illness or bring your loved ones back from the dead. I care about you and I think you should know before you bare your souls like this that I am not a doctor or a faith healer so I advise you to seek professional doctors and grief counselors rather than post here where I'm afraid I'll face legal charges for listening to your troubles," then you can call me inconsistent.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
Twilight wrote:
quote:
It presumes that the person you're talking to doesn't know the difference between a doctor and a message board and it jumps in with warnings about the limitations of our caring before it's even asked for.
Think of it as a boundary – a way of saying what the Ship community can and can’t do – that’s designed to protect everyone within it. And like any boundary, you will only ever come across it if you get too close to it.
quote:
Imagine going to your friend's house with a tale of woe and getting that speech on the doorstep.
You seem to be forgetting that the doorstep owner is a person too – with their own needs, problems etc. Your expectation seems to be, as Tina points out, that the doorstep owner should be ready to provide endless care and support whenever it is asked for.
But, in some circumstances, the best response for the doorstep owner to their friend might be, “I’m sorry, although I love and care for you I can’t handle this. You need someone with the right experience and training to do so. I will support you as much as I can while you do this”
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Sabine....good words. ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Now as for this one.....
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
....
When the day comes where I go to the Prayer Thread and say, "Please quit posting here, we are not able to cure your illness or bring your loved ones back from the dead. I care about you and I think you should know before you bare your souls like this that I am not a doctor or a faith healer so I advise you to seek professional doctors and grief counselors rather than post here where I'm afraid I'll face legal charges for listening to your troubles," then you can call me inconsistent.
Can somebody explain to me why this is not trollish behaviour?
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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MaryO
Shipmate
# 161
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Posted
(warning: self-disclosure ahead)
Last year I spent part of September and October in a psychiatric unit for depression and suicidal ideation. I was unable to work for three months.
People who are that sick are _unable_ to process communications in a normal way. Would I have taken a "take this to a therapist" message badly? Absolutely. However--it _is_ not and _cannot_ be the responsibility of anyone here to predict what a sick person's (distorted!) reaction will be to a posted message. Saying otherwise is giving a sick person permission to emotionally hijack the virtual community, and is the last thing s/he needs.
MaryO
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Hanging around off and on since 2001.
Posts: 349 | From: New York City | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Can somebody explain to me why this is not trollish behaviour?
I don't think it's trollish. I don't agree with all of it; but, as I read it, the gist of it is similar to what I'm trying to say. It's just more strongly worded.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Hmmmm.....O.K., I can see what your are saying golden key.
Enuff said on this one.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
When the day comes where I go to the Prayer Thread and say, "Please quit posting here, we are not able to cure your illness or bring your loved ones back from the dead. I care about you and I think you should know before you bare your souls like this that I am not a doctor or a faith healer so I advise you to seek professional doctors and grief counselors rather than post here where I'm afraid I'll face legal charges for listening to your troubles," then you can call me inconsistent.
And when the day comes that I institute anything like this as a policy, this will be a relevant contribution to that discussion.
I've just about had it with your willfull and deliberate misrepresentation of my words, Twilight. You are just about on my last damn nerve.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Twilight, you are being inconsistent - you complain that people aren't supportive here, but you don't want to read the threads where support is offered. You're also assuming the absolute worst about the administrators and misconstruing almost everything we say. If you don't like the Ship and the way it's run, there are lots of other bulletin boards out there.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
MaryO, thank you for your openness and honesty. I for one really appreciate that. And although I don't have the first hand experience you do, I agree with what you are saying about responsibility. Thank you.
Twilight, please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you have made your point and it's not doing you or the issue any favours to belabour it. Maybe this is the time just to wait and see how things develop.
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I've just about had it with your willfull and deliberate misrepresentation of my words, Twilight. You are just about on my last damn nerve.
And I'm getting more and more confused as to why you think all my posts are directed at you.
Almost all my posts on this thread have been in response to people who have quoted me and engaged me in debate with direct questions.
My last post was to Tina who said my not going to the Prayer Thread was inconsistent with being against the policy. Almost every word was a paraphrase of what da-Musician had said (in another post directed to me). If I misrepresented anyone's words it was his.
If you look at his words, taken out of contect for simplicity) I think you will see the similarity: quote:
We are still willing to pray for you and support you but we can't do anything else so don't expect us too.
What is being said is that the Ship is not the place to come for help.For that you need to go elsewhere.As for all you know the person on the other side of the screen could be a mad axe murderer.
... whenever I see someone posting/saying something personal I assume they are in someway looking for care and support otherwise why say anything?Surely its better to let people know this before they bare their souls and then find out that we can't do anything...
Part of careing is knowing when to help and when to direct ot others to help.
There is the legal side as well ... it leaves itself open to all sort of trouble.People would be able to point their finger at the ship and say "It didn't help.It hurt me" and the ship wouldn't be able to say "We never claimed we could".
... most importantly it helps to protect us.
It seems to me that lots of people have expressed their opinion on this thread so I don't understand why only my opinion is considered trollish and irritating.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings but these decisions could mean life or death for someone.
Please let me try to explain why this statement is virtually the equivalent of emotional blackmail, seriously. I'm not belittling your concern.
As a volunteer many years with suicide/distress hotlines one of the first things we had to take on board with our training was that regardless of how 'well' or 'badly' we did with a would-be self harmer the decision to self harm was always their own responsibility. They weren't being driven to kill themselves because a volunteer happened not to strike the right note of 'aw, poor you'; and neither were they finding the will to live because someone was 'successfully' responding to them.
It is precisely because some of the issues that people bring could be life and death that they shouldn't be mucked about with or exposed to a potential advice-pool of several hundred would-be Freuds or freaks (no offence folks! ![[Wink]](wink.gif) .
Let's say Theoretical Self-harm Shipmate strikes up intense needy/advice relationship with Kind Listener. Self-harm Shipmate may gladly take on board all the great advice given; may go off on a cloud of loving support and good intentions based on Kind Listener's wise words. But may still decide to take the bottle of sleeping tabs at four in the morning when reality kicks in. Because that's her decision over her life.
Trained listeners and counsellors know how to cope, usually, when this happens (when they know it's happened); how not to curl up in a corner praying for the end of the world. But on the kind of format of these boards it's not even possible to gauge the likelihood of someone's response to what they read here, let alone assume responsibility regarding 'life and death for someone'.
When one considers how even light-hearted banter can sometimes be misconstrued on a thread debate, the heart shrinks to think of the potential damage when discussing issues of personal mortal destiny with a fragile person.
So yes there may be people involved with the boards who are struggling with life and death issues but apart from an SoF decision to implement a policy of individually hate-spamming all vulnerable would-be self harmers, no decisions made of the nature suggested by the OP will add to the suicide rate.
Be realistic. You don't have to go far on the Ship boards to see the genuine concern and support there is for people in need. That's as much that can be safely asked of such a community. And that's why I think that quote is, perhaps unconsciously but still, a kind of emotional blackmail to compel Shipmates or the Ship itself to assume a responsibility it simply doesn't have.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Twilight, drop it. Enough already. I heard what you are saying (I heard it the first time) now just move on. Drop it, Drop it, Drop it. If you can not bring yourself to apologise for banging on, on this thread and making it twice as long as it should be then that is OK. But now is the time to just DROP IT, please.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
And I'm getting more and more confused as to why you think all my posts are directed at you.
Because we have told you how this policy will be implemented -- through myself and the administrators. You have consistently indicated your concern for Theoretical Self-Harmer because of how awful the administrators have been.
quote:
I think it's like this; nice people who have been here a long time like you and Dolphy are treated with sympathy but prickly people who are not well liked or not well known are treated very differently. You have total trust that what they say to these people will be tactful and kind and not cool and dismissive.
quote:
Cross posted with Ruth who has finally given an example of how it would be handled that sounds much nicer than the impression I had from the OP of curt warnings followed by deleted posts.
quote:
my doubts had to do with the inate tactfulness of a few of the hosts not the kindness of their intentions
If this isn't about how awful the admins and I are -- the ones who will be implementing the policy -- what's it about, then?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Anselmina,I only meant to try to explain why I was belaboring the discussion, not to try to blackmail anyone but I do think your post is very informative. What you have said, as well as MaryO's post has caused me to change my mind about the issue somewhat. As I've said from the first I don't think the policy is wholly a bad idea or at all ill-intentioned. I was just concerned that the wording not leave anyone feeling rejected.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
If you don't like the Ship and the way it's run, there are lots of other bulletin boards out there.
As much as you dislike me and as many times as you've invited me to leave it probably will not happen unless I'm forced to.
Obviously I do like many things about the ship or I wouldn't have stayed for a year. I like the liberal Christian tone, I like the subjects discussed in Purgatory, I love the humor and fun of Heaven and the equal number of laughs from Hell. Another reason I seldom make it to the prayer thread is that I start at the top of the board and work down and I'm usually either out of time or caught up in something before I get to the lower boards.
I really like about 95% of the regulars on this board. I think they are kind and supportive. I've learned an incredible amount from these people. There are only a few people who are sometimes cruel and tactless but it only takes one to really hurt someone.
P.S. If anyone has a link to a similar board I'll be glad to give it a try and maybe you'll be rid of me. I have looked and found nothing comparable.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote from Twilight quote:
I was just concerned that the wording not leave anyone feeling rejected.
I'm another shipmate who has answered the phone for a suicide hotline.
I don't think it's possible to do things so that no one ever feels rejected. Sometimes desperately unhappy people want someone else to take charge. A hotline volunteer or someone on the ship cannot do that. When the unhappy people don't get what they want, they feel rejected.
The problem is they want the impossible. Moreover, when they want someone else to take charge, they usually know exactly what they want that person to do. Hotline volunteers and shipmates are willing to listen sympathetically, but they can't do more, and they can't give professional advice. At the Samaritans I used to say, "I'm glad you called. Feel free to call again any time you like. But I do think you need more than I can give you."
I hope no one felt rejected when I said this, but it's very likely some people did.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Twilight, drop it. Enough already. I heard what you are saying (I heard it the first time) now just move on. Drop it, Drop it, Drop it. If you can not bring yourself to apologise for banging on, on this thread and making it twice as long as it should be then that is OK. But now is the time to just DROP IT, please.
P
This thread has 125 posts. Fourteen of them are mine. How does that make me responsible for making this thread twice as long as it needs to be. People like you keep saying things to me and I reply.
I'm sure your 2000 plus posts have all been of earth shaking importance. If not maybe you would like to apologize for wasting so much space.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I was just concerned that the wording not leave anyone feeling rejected.
We will of course word our messages to apparently suicidal posters very carefully. Again, this is just you assuming the worst about us.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
If you don't like the Ship and the way it's run, there are lots of other bulletin boards out there. quote:
As much as you dislike me and as many times as you've invited me to leave it probably will not happen unless I'm forced to.
I only said this because you have spent so much time on this thread talking about how awful we are. I wouldn't dislike you so much if you wouldn't assume the worst about us and our intentions.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Oh come on Ruth. Out of all my posts, Erin just dug out the worst sentences she could find and even in them you can see me say that I trust the hosts to have kind intentions. The worst I've said is that there might be some coolness or tactlessness. Never have I called anyone awful.
You and Erin seem to think I'm talking about you personally but I don't know how the admin heirarchy works and who out of all the moderators will be assigned to what duty. The initial OP did not make it clear to me that only hosts would be saying that we weren't to talk about these things. I thought anyone on board might be expected to tell the person that they should seek help from a professional.
It's not Erin whose tact I'm not too sure of.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Okay. This is intensely simple. I can't believe it's gone to three pages.
The Ship is legally and ethically barred from being an official counseling service for the suicidal. This does not mean shipmates cannot help, or that the Ship is going to post "go away" messages. It just means that the Ship Admins will officially recommend that the suicidal seek professional help they can't get here. It's that simple.
Why is this causing such a fuss? With people reading anything into anything? We mean what we say. That's all.
[ 23. May 2003, 03:57: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Twilight, let it go. You've heard from the lawyers about being wrong. You've heard from the counsellors about being wrong. You've heard from the distress centre volunteers about being wrong. You are not going to win on this one so give it up and let it go.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
I feel the need to say something here.
I wish to clearly indicate to all that I do not consider Twilight's posts on this thread trollish. I asked an honest question, received a response from one poster suggesting the answer to my question was no. Upon reflection I agreed. I apologise if I looked like I was indicating he was trolling; I was wondering, not suggesting.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
You and Erin seem to think I'm talking about you personally but I don't know how the admin heirarchy works and who out of all the moderators will be assigned to what duty.
Yet we've explained several times that it will be the ADMINS ONLY who will deal with these situations. If after 500 posts you have not figured out who the admins are, read the FAQs.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
I think we've pretty much run this wholly into the ground, so I'm going to close this thread.
Anyone who thinks that the Hosts and Admins are unmitigated meanies is obviously free to start a NEW thread for everyone's weekend entertainment.
Thanks to all who thoughtfully contributed here, and thanks for reading.
HT, Admin
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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