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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: The Ecclesiantics Altimeter
Organ Builder
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To throw something else in the mix: suppose a church has "Stations of the Cross"...

Perhaps I'm seeing a different mix than in years past--or perhaps I'm just more attuned to such things--but it seems to me that the presence of "Stations" has become more common in TEC churches at all levels. I can remember when they were seen as Anglo-Catholic influence, but I've seen them now in congregations which would be appalled to be described as such.

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Patrick the less saintly
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I think Stations of the Cross are now firmly MotR, although many parishes, including several Anglo-Catholic ones do not have permanent display. The Church of yoof had a new set made every year by 14 volunteers, and it was out only for Holy Week.

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Prester John
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by JSwift:
There are at least one or two gradations between these two.

What would you add?
It is hard for me to say. Where I am at and have been at, there is no movable communion table. It is seperate or shared with the lectern but immovable and front and center.

The scripture readings are connected to the sermon or part of a congregational reading plan, as opposed to a lectionary.

"Believer's baptism" is emphasized with the baptistry also in a prominent location.

No liturgical words per se but some phrases have in a sense taken on a liturgical like meaning by force of tradition.

So I seem to be in some middle ground between the two.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
To throw something else in the mix: suppose a church has "Stations of the Cross"...

Anyone can have Stations of the Cross. Even Baptists can have Stations of the Cross if they want. Certainly lowish Anglicans. Though more likely posters on the wall than a permanent feature.

But they will use them differently from a catholic-styled place. They aren't so much into processions.

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Organ Builder
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I was thinking of permanent Stations. I can tell you that there might be a Baptist church somewhere in the US with Stations, but most Baptist churches would think the Pastor had been possessed by demons if the Stations appeared in the church.

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Patrick the less saintly
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An impeccable source (well, an American sitcom, which is much the same thing) tells me that Seventh Day Adventists have stations of the cross ice sculptures at their weddings. If it's on the telly, it must be true.

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Anyone can have Stations of the Cross. Even Baptists can have Stations of the Cross if they want. Certainly lowish Anglicans. Though more likely posters on the wall than a permanent feature.

We have Stations in Lent. I've never been and have no idea what it actually entails as there are no permanent fixtures on the wall.

Although we do have a rather wonderful memorial to the lady who donated the money to electrify the church. Maybe they stop there and chaunt Psalm 27.

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gianbattista
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For what it's worth:

It once occured to me that a useful, if approximate, "altimeter" would be to divide the amount of time taken for the Peace by the amount of time taken for the Elevation of the Host.

I have to admit, however, that the increasingly involved criteria developed over the previous posts make this formula seem more than a little crude.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by JSwift:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by JSwift:
There are at least one or two gradations between these two.

What would you add?
It is hard for me to say. Where I am at and have been at, there is no movable communion table. It is seperate or shared with the lectern but immovable and front and center.

The scripture readings are connected to the sermon or part of a congregational reading plan, as opposed to a lectionary.

"Believer's baptism" is emphasized with the baptistry also in a prominent location.

No liturgical words per se but some phrases have in a sense taken on a liturgical like meaning by force of tradition.

So I seem to be in some middle ground between the two.

Rather than inserting a mid-ground category, I'd simply modify the High Free Church definition to include the possibility of a fixed communion table, and a scripture reading as you mention. From what you mention, I'd definitely classify that as High Free Church (although I did make up the term last night [Big Grin] ).

What would separate you from Low MOTR is a whiff of larger tradition beyond the four walls of the church itself.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by gianbattista:
It once occured to me that a useful, if approximate, "altimeter" would be to divide the amount of time taken for the Peace by the amount of time taken for the Elevation of the Host.

Perhaps it would be helpful to look at the amount of time spent on the Liturgy of the Catechumens vs. the Liturgy of the Faithful (Before offertory and after). For instance, at the Holy Eucharist in my Lutheran church, we spend roughly 2/3 of the time pre-offering, and 1/3 post-offering. In a Roman Catholic place with equivalent liturgical music, hymns, and ceremonial, it is usually closer to 1/2 and 1/2. Sermon time blows us out of the water. [Roll Eyes] [Snore] [Snore] [Snore]
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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by gianbattista:
It once occured to me that a useful, if approximate, "altimeter" would be to divide the amount of time taken for the Peace by the amount of time taken for the Elevation of the Host.

Perhaps it would be helpful to look at the amount of time spent on the Liturgy of the Catechumens vs. the Liturgy of the Faithful (Before offertory and after). For instance, at the Holy Eucharist in my Lutheran church, we spend roughly 2/3 of the time pre-offering, and 1/3 post-offering. In a Roman Catholic place with equivalent liturgical music, hymns, and ceremonial, it is usually closer to 1/2 and 1/2. Sermon time blows us out of the water. [Roll Eyes] [Snore] [Snore] [Snore]
Dividing the Peace by the Elevations doesn't work for us as we don't do either. However, the Liturgy of the Word to Liturgy of the Eucharist ratio works for us. We are about 50-50; however I have to qualify that by saying that the Prayer for the Church and the General Confession are placed after the offertory in the 1928 BCP. If I used Rite One from the 1979 BCP it would be closer to three-fifths to two-fifths. That would fit with our MOTR tradition.

I have usually found the sermon as a percentage of run time pretty reliable guide in liturgical churches. There are exceptions of course! When we lived in SoCal we had six Continuing Anglican churches within easy driving distance. At the lowest in churchmanship the sermon occupied 40 to 50% of the run time of the main service. At the highest it was more like 12-15%. The MOTR-High shacks all ran between 20 and 25% of run time.

PD

[ 22. July 2009, 04:05: Message edited by: PD ]

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Patrick the less saintly
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The length of the chancel as compared to the length of the nave can also serve as an indicator for the churchmanship at the time of construction, although this is often not reflected in the current churchmanship. All Saints, Margaret Street, for instance, was purpose-built as an Anglo-Catholic shack, and has a very long chancel, to represent the importance of the liturgy of the sacrifice. St Magnus the Martyr, on the other hand, has a tiny little chancel, as do most other Wren Churches, because the emphasis at the time of its construction was on the liturgy of the word.


quote:
Originally posted by Cruet:
Patrick the less saintly,
Could you be refering to St. Paul's in San Antonio? If so, you descibed it perfectly.

Sorry that I missed it earlier. Yes, it was St Paul's, San Antonio.

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dj_ordinaire
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quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
The length of the chancel as compared to the length of the nave can also serve as an indicator for the churchmanship at the time of construction, although this is often not reflected in the current churchmanship. All Saints, Margaret Street, for instance, was purpose-built as an Anglo-Catholic shack, and has a very long chancel, to represent the importance of the liturgy of the sacrifice. St Magnus the Martyr, on the other hand, has a tiny little chancel, as do most other Wren Churches, because the emphasis at the time of its construction was on the liturgy of the word.

Yer wot now? ASMS has an extremely modest chancel! It's much shorter than the nave...

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
However, the Liturgy of the Word to Liturgy of the Eucharist ratio works for us. We are about 50-50; however I have to qualify that by saying that the Prayer for the Church and the General Confession are placed after the offertory in the 1928 BCP. If I used Rite One from the 1979 BCP it would be closer to three-fifths to two-fifths. That would fit with our MOTR tradition.

I have usually found the sermon as a percentage of run time pretty reliable guide in liturgical churches. There are exceptions of course! When we lived in SoCal we had six Continuing Anglican churches within easy driving distance. At the lowest in churchmanship the sermon occupied 40 to 50% of the run time of the main service. At the highest it was more like 12-15%. The MOTR-High shacks all ran between 20 and 25% of run time.

We start at at 10:30, the sermon is usually about 20 minutes, the Peace comes in at about 11:30 and these days the service is usually over by 12:00 (a few years ago it was *much* longer)

So Word:Sacrament ratio is 2:1

And Sermon Percentage is 20-25%

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Ken

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
And this alimeter means nothing in other Eccelesial Communities.

I think it can be ported over to us non-Anglicans. How about this (Warning for Thread-Skimmers--this is not a rating system for Anglican churches!):

Low Free Church:
-No vestments ever
-No altar. May be movable communion table, used only for storing trays. Not front-and-center.
-Order of service is totally local custom. May be fixed from week to week or variable, but shows no effects of tradition outside that church [or its parent, if a satellite]
-Scripture readings, if any, are small bits incorporated into a talk
-No talk of "sacraments" -- may have communion, but treated as a simple act of sharing and no liturgical words used

High Free Church:
-Same as Low Free Church, only with emphasis on Believers' Baptism

Low MOTR Church:
-May be clerical robe, but wearing or not wearing is treated as pastor's or individual church's choice
-Liturgical color is not a factor
-Has altar or communion table, latter may be movable
-Order of service is basically fixed from week to week, and shows some effects of a parent tradition [for instance--a pattern of Gathering-Word-Communion-Sending]. May be some variable additions from week to week (i.e. special music)
-Sacraments (Big 2) - not necessarily "believers' baptism," Communion and Baptism celebrated infrequently
-Sacraments celebrated with "freestyle" wording--nothing from denominational texts
-People in pews may be expected to pray aloud simple, commonly-known prayers--the Lord's Prayer and Apostles' Creed, for instance
-A scripture "text" is read, lectionary or not is uncertain--appears to be somebody's choice

Middle MOTR Church:
-Vestments are the norm, and involve some sort of stole (robe and stole or cassock-alb and stole). May be not worn on several occasions each year.
-May pay attention to liturgical color
-Has altar or communion table
-Has Holy Communion on a regular schedule, at least once every two months at the main service
-Order of service is basically fixed from week to week, and shows some effects of a parent tradition [for instance--a pattern of Gathering-Word-Communion-Sending]. May be some variable additions from week to week (i.e. special music)
-Sacraments are celebrated with the same basic ordo each time, with almost no variation in wording. Still may be "freestyle," but the wording is such that it could be remembered and repeated by those who hear it frequently.
-People may be expected to follow and contribute voice to a liturgical order in a book or bulletin
-Uses a lectionary of some sort, but can be changed on clerical whim

High MOTR Church:
-Vestments are the norm. Cassock-alb and stole, with possible chasuble for Holy Communion. May not wear vestments on several occasions yearly.
-Liturgical color traditions are followed
-Has altar or communion table
-Holy Communion at least once monthly at the main service
-Sacraments are celebrated consistently using a fixed liturgical order
-No "freestyle" liturgy at all
-People in pews are expected to follow and contribute voice to a liturgical order in a book or bulletin
-Uses a lectionary

High Church:
-Vestments required, chasuble for Holy Communion
-Liturgical colors taken seriously
-Has altar or communion table
-Holy Communion weekly at main service
-Follows consistent liturgical order
-People know liturgically what happens from week to week
-Lectionary obeyed
-Dignity and ceremony are emphasized

Nosebleed High:
-Are these people pretending to be Catholics/Orthodox or what?

Sober Preacher's Kid, based on what you gave I would place your church at Low MOTR level.

Others? How would you modify the list above?

I agree. Low-MOTR. The Minister has a Salvation Army background (and an axe to grind too) so he's informal. Likes to change the readings around to suit the sermon. Will follow the Lectionary if he feels like it.

My default position is High-MOTR. Chazzie-wearing, Monthly Communion, sticks to liturgical texts for sacraments.

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Patrick the less saintly
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
The length of the chancel as compared to the length of the nave can also serve as an indicator for the churchmanship at the time of construction, although this is often not reflected in the current churchmanship. All Saints, Margaret Street, for instance, was purpose-built as an Anglo-Catholic shack, and has a very long chancel, to represent the importance of the liturgy of the sacrifice. St Magnus the Martyr, on the other hand, has a tiny little chancel, as do most other Wren Churches, because the emphasis at the time of its construction was on the liturgy of the word.

Yer wot now? ASMS has an extremely modest chancel! It's much shorter than the nave...
One third the length of the nave, to be precise, which is smaller than some Medieval churches (particularly those affiliated with monasteries), but still quite long for a church built after the Reformation.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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quote:
Originally posted by Cruet:
Patrick the less saintly,
Could you be refering to St. Paul's in San Antonio? If so, you descibed it perfectly.

Patrick did make one mistake as regards St Paul's Grayson Street, San Antonio, i.e. the mass ordinary being sung entirely in English -- I've been there on several occasions when the Agnus Dei is sung congregationally in Spanish (a very nice setting at that). I can't recall if other bits were sung in Spanish. Possibly the Sanctus?
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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
The length of the chancel as compared to the length of the nave can also serve as an indicator for the churchmanship at the time of construction, although this is often not reflected in the current churchmanship. All Saints, Margaret Street, for instance, was purpose-built as an Anglo-Catholic shack, and has a very long chancel, to represent the importance of the liturgy of the sacrifice. St Magnus the Martyr, on the other hand, has a tiny little chancel, as do most other Wren Churches, because the emphasis at the time of its construction was on the liturgy of the word.

Yer wot now? ASMS has an extremely modest chancel! It's much shorter than the nave...
The chancel at ASMS gives the impression of being larger than it is. I think that observation would please Butterfield enormously. ASMS was built on the site of the old Margaret Chapel, which occupied two city lots, and they managed to buy a third for the new church. It still isn't a big space - its is about 120 feet square.

From the opposite end of the candle Trinity Church, Boston; St George, NYC; Calvary, NYC; and every other church in Virginia have short wide chancels as they were originally Low Church/ Evangelical. St Clement's, Philadalphia was original Low Church, and has only a short apsidal chancel. This was raised in height c.1915 to accomodate the present triptych.

PD

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
The length of the chancel as compared to the length of the nave can also serve as an indicator for the churchmanship at the time of construction, although this is often not reflected in the current churchmanship. All Saints, Margaret Street, for instance, was purpose-built as an Anglo-Catholic shack, and has a very long chancel, to represent the importance of the liturgy of the sacrifice. St Magnus the Martyr, on the other hand, has a tiny little chancel, as do most other Wren Churches, because the emphasis at the time of its construction was on the liturgy of the word.

Yer wot now? ASMS has an extremely modest chancel! It's much shorter than the nave...
The chancel at ASMS gives the impression of being larger than it is. I think that observation would please Butterfield enormously. ASMS was built on the site of the old Margaret Chapel, which occupied two city lots, and they managed to buy a third for the new church. It still isn't a big space - its is about 120 feet square.

From the opposite end of the candle Trinity Church, Boston; St George, NYC; Calvary, NYC; and nearly every church in Virginia built between The War and the 1920s has short wide chancels as they were originally Low Church/ Evangelical. St Clement's, Philadalphia was original Low Church, and has only a short apsidal chancel. This was raised in height c.1915 to accomodate the present triptych.

PD

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ken
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The worship space at ASMS is pretty much exactly the same dimensions as our church, both chancel and nave. (I measured ours, and got All Saint's from Pevsner). But they feel very different and ours feels smaller. It is of course a lot plainer (practically every church in England is plainer) and a lot lighter.

Ours used to be longer but the back 2/7 of the nave was partitioned off to make a vestibule & meeting rooms.

High windows do a lot for All Saints.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Patrick the less saintly
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But they feel very different and ours feels smaller. It is of course a lot plainer (practically every church in England is plainer) and a lot lighter.


Ah yes, a church so spectacular that the only thing Ian Nair could think to describe it as was an orgasm.

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Hooker's Trick

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Another scale one can proftably mark a parish along is propensity to follow the rubrics and canons of one's own church.

The closer one gets to either extreme, the more likely one is to find the rubrics flouted or practices of another faith community adopted in preference to one's own.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
Ah yes, a church so spectacular that the only thing Ian Nair could think to describe it as was an orgasm.

It still doesn't match up to St Bartholomew's in Brighton!

But then nowhere does.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ken
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Back on topic, there was a thread on a topic overlapping with this one last year called "Surplice-low church, albs-high church" It seems to have been deleted, though its still in Google cache.

I did a snippet of a field guide there, in response to a comment:

quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:
I tend to think in the UK that low church C of E tend not to wear vestments.

I think that's generally true of the charismatic evangelical side of things. Traditional conservative evangelicals often go for either cassock and surplice or else dog collar and suit. Though there is variation from place to place and week to week.

quote:

I would have thought things like candles/types pf procession/ whether there are bells and smells/ style of music to be more indicative of the motr/high divide over here

Even Baptists can use candles! But incense is a bit of a giveaway. Music not so much - there are plenty of real catholic churches that sing Matt Redman songs (just ask Max) and still a few evangelical places that are wedded to Victorian choral music. And when I went to a funeral in a Catholic church a few months ago we sang Amazing Grace, Abide with me, and The Lord's my Shepherd just like we do in Protestant places.

Some other vague clues at Holy Communion in the Church of England are:

High:

  • More than one robed minister
  • Gospel procession
  • Gospel readings by a "deacon" (who may actually be a Deacon but in practice often isn't)
  • Preaching mostly done by clergy, or at the most extreme licensed Readers
  • Stage business with various vessels and cloths and ablutions immediatly before the Eucharistic Prayer.
  • white wine
  • wafers
  • standing for Communion
  • Whoever is distributing the wine keeps a firm hold of the cup.
  • Intinction (dipping in the wafer)
  • Eucharist as the main worship service every Sunday morning (These days that is MOTR and High rather than specifically Anglo-Catholic)

Low:

  • Only the president robes (if anyone does)
  • Gospel read from the lectern
  • Gospel readings by any member
  • Preaching sometimes by unlicensed lay people
  • Quite simple ceremony with a minimum of ritual manual actions.
  • red wine
  • real bread
  • kneeling for Communion
  • The cup is handed over to the communicant
  • No intinction (most of our lot have never heard of it and wouldn't recognise it if they saw it.)
  • Morning Prayer as the main worship service on at least some Sunday mornings (though many evangelical parishes moved to weekly Holy Communion in the 1980s, and a few are moving back now for some reason or other)

But they are vague clues - there are big exceptions to all of those. Your mileage may vary. But in general if a CofE church has more from the first list than the second they are likely to be Anglo-Catholic (and vice versa)

There are some [Cool] Unchangeable and Invariable Rules though:

  • Reserving the sacrament is almost always high, evangelicals are very wary of it. Even places that did it (for example to take to the sick) wouldn't make a fuss of it and wouldn't have any public adoration of it. In fact most of the congregation would be unlikely to know it was being done.
  • Statues of saints, votive candles, and general iconic tat, are High. Though there can be all sorts of mediaeval thingamajigs in old parish churches of any flavour - its the use of statues and paintings that is the Clue, not their mere presence. And some Anglo-Catholic churches are quite plain. And evangelicals often dabble in tat in an arty alt.worshippy sort of way - though more likely in evening or midweek services than on Sunday morning.
  • Mariolatry. Making a fuss about Mary is something evangelicals Just Don't Do. You won't hear the Hail Mary or see candles in front of statues of her. If any of them use the Rosary they keep it between consenting adults in private. Many MOTR and mildly AC places don't go for it either, but if you find a CofE shack that does, you can be sure they are high up the candle.
  • The real clincher is calling the priest "Father". Evangelicals never do, High-Church types always do. This is the Dead Giveaway. Honest, Guv.

Oh, and at our church on Easter Sunday, two out of the three ordained priests present were robed, which is odd for us. They were both wearing cassock, surplice, and stole. I think we must be low [Smile]

And yet, and yet... my nose detected a whiff of incense. Something unknown in almost that place since it was built.

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LA Dave
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Regarding Stations: Most TEC parishes, at least in the Diocese of LA, either do not feature them or include them as sort of an afterthought (as two-dimensional pictures, for example). My old TEC parish, though, featured giant Italian and very realistic three-dimensional stations. I recall that RC visitors were always impressed (and in fact, both my former and current RC parish could not rival the stations in, well, "Catholicity.")

Ken's listing of "high" and "low" in the Church of England just emphasizes how different TEC liturgical practices are from those of the "mother church." For example, I have rarely seen communicants standing to receive in TEC; almost invariably, the communion rail is well used, whether the parish is low, MOTR or high. The use of "real bread" also varies; at my old TEC parish it was a no-no while at my brother's MOTR parish in Michigan it appears to be common.

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RadicalWhig
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Just a question, because my experience of "high" church is quite limited:

Is it possible to be relatively "high" in the ways described on this thread, but to be theologically liberal (e.g. sceptical about miracles, higher criticism of the bible, open to female and/or gay clergy, etc)?

I'd like to experience a "high Unitarian" service, with choirs, candles, vestments, maybe some incense for good measure, but with a liberal, post-theistic interpretation of it all. Does such a thing exist?

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LA Dave
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The "highest" Unitarian church of which I am aware is King's Chapel in Boston -- formerly Anglican, it follows a liturgy that is based on the Book of Common Prayer.
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Organ Builder
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quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
I'd like to experience a "high Unitarian" service, with choirs, candles, vestments, maybe some incense for good measure, but with a liberal, post-theistic interpretation of it all. Does such a thing exist?

You wouldn't find incense, but otherwise this Unitarian Fellowship might fit the rest of your requirements. They used to have a good choir, but I haven't lived near there for some 13 years and things like that can change very quickly.

That is a HUGE Tiffany Nativity window at the front, btw...not something you find in every Unitarian church.

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Angloid
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Originally posted by ken:
quote:
extreme licensed Readers
ie. like leo and Bishop's Finger, as opposed to extremely moderate licensed Reader ken. [Biased]

Ken's 'high/low' checklist is pretty accurate except as regards kneeling for communion. The division here is 'trad' versus 'modern': very many trad a/c places kneel, many evo places stand. Though in the latter case, probably proportionately fewer as I imagine the practice originates with Vatican 2 and evangelicals are less likely to take note of that.

I would have thought standing to receive communion is the norm in RC churches; very much the exception in Anglican ones.

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Patrick the less saintly
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quote:
Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Just a question, because my experience of "high" church is quite limited:

Is it possible to be relatively "high" in the ways described on this thread, but to be theologically liberal (e.g. sceptical about miracles, higher criticism of the bible, open to female and/or gay clergy, etc)?

YES! In fact, high church places are probably rather more likely to be on the liberal side than their evangelical counterparts. Skepticism about miracles is hardly rare amongst clergy, and quite common amongst the laity. Higher criticism of the Bible is, as far as I know, more or less universally tolerated. In the ECUSA, almost everyone (but not quite) of all churchmanships is open to female clergy and the greater number are open to gay clergy. In the CofE, conservative Anglo-Catholics are more likely to make a fuss about women and conservative evangelicals about gays. Most conservative Anglo-Catholics are, in theory, opposed to gay clergy but rarely talk about it too loudly because almost all Anglo-Catholic parishes have a much higher percentage of gay men than society at large. Affirming Catholicism is a grouping of Anglo-Catholics open to female and gay clergy. Their priestly society, of which ++Rowan Williams is patron, is the Society of Catholic Priests.

quote:


I'd like to experience a "high Unitarian" service, with choirs, candles, vestments, maybe some incense for good measure, but with a liberal, post-theistic interpretation of it all. Does such a thing exist?

A less emphatic yes. Your best bet would probably be the King's Chapel in Boston, which has a vaguely high church Anglican liturgy. It is Unitarian, but, unlike the vast majority of Unitarian churches in the United States, did not merge with the Universalists and remains committed to Unitarian Christianity, although it is affiliated with the Unitarian Universalists. Their only creed is this statement: 'in the love of the truth, and the spirit of Jesus Christ, we unite for the worship of God and the service of man'. So, they are more committed to Christianity than most UUs, but I think that any religious body affiliated with the UUs counts as 'very liberal'.

ETA: I see others already answered this question.

[ 22. July 2009, 19:42: Message edited by: Patrick the less saintly ]

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
extreme licensed Readers
ie. like leo and Bishop's Finger, as opposed to extremely moderate licensed Reader ken. [Biased]
I love the thought of being an 'extreme licensed reader'.

I have always been wary of extreme sports but I am preaching about the discipleship of risk this Sunday. (The gospel includes walking on water and the lectionary devotes 5 more Sundays to the eucharist.)

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leo
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Another thought - what is meant by 'preaching by clergy or, at the most extreme' licensed reader'?

Maybe it means that they prefer clergy unless they are desperate.

The parish church (Resolutions ABC) that I don't go to has two female Readers and they take their turn on the rota alongside the (male) clergy.

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Bishops Finger
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Ooh - I quite like being described as an 'extreme licensed Reader' as well!

Mind you, having come from a con-evo background, via a couple of MOTR parishes and a Cathedral, to the A-C parish in which I now serve, I hope I've managed to imbibe some good things from all of them! I have a feeling I might be quite happy with the worship at ken's church..........

Ian J.

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ptarmigan
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None of those are low. We found a low church - Haworth in Yorkshire, where the BRonte sisters were daughetrs of the manse.

On Christmas day the main morning service was morning worship. In the small print it was mentioned that anyone who wished to receive the Lord's Supper was invited to go to the side chapel after coffeetime.

It was celebrated for the handful of us that stayed by a presbyter in cassock and surplice (no stole) from the North end of the table.

This was more than a decade ago.

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RadicalWhig
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LADave, Organ Builder, Patrick - Thank you.

(For a moment I got mildly excited about Boston - until I realised that it was the American Boston, not the English Boston. So I don't think I'll be able to get there anytime soon...)

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Max.
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@Ken - I know of plenty of Evangelical Places where they stand to receive communion and where intinction is normal. I would've thought that intinction would've been a low-church thing seeing as us Catholics don't do it.
St Mary's Bryanston Square actually automatically intinct the pieces of bread, they don't let one sip from the cup.

Also Ken - My Catholic Church has more in common with the Low Church list than the High Church list. [Eek!]

Max.

[ 22. July 2009, 21:21: Message edited by: Max. ]

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FreeJack
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Yes, intinction which was more associated with anglo-catholics (and certainly not conservative evangelicals) is used by some large charismatic evangelical churches in London. Certainly Holy Trinity Brompton and related churches like St Mary's Bryanston Square and St Paul's Hammersmith. But that's a localised exception to the rule in the good ol' CofE.
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gianbattista
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quote:
Some other vague clues at Holy Communion in the Church of England are:

High:

. . . .
Intinction (dipping in the wafer)

Coming out of an American context, I have never thought of intinction as particularly "high." It strikes me as more characteristic of the generic MOTR found in the American church. It was practiced in the Methodist parish I grew up in (if dipping Wonder Bread in Welch's grape juice counts), and in TEC parishes, it has always looked to me like a fussy antiseptic practice to indulge the obsessively germophobic. The A-C parish I attend in Los Angeles will not allow communicants to intinct unless the celebrant dips the wafer, then places it on the communicant's tongue.

Which brings up an issue that is slightly off topic, as it involves choices made outside of the chancel rather than inside. Something I Read On A Blog Somewhere: when the late Mother Theresa was asked what in her opinion was the most serious problem facing the Church, she is said to have replied: "Wherever I go in the world, the saddest thing I see is people receiving the body of Our Lord in their hands." And I was told -- not by clergy -- at the same A-C parish that I should always receive on the tongue. But perhaps this has already been discussed somewhere.

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Sarum Sleuth
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Looking at Ken's list, I see High Churches use white wine and don't hand over the chalice to individual communicants. Where does this leave my parish, which has always used red wine and has encouraged communicants to take the chalice into their hands, as specified in the BCP rubric? But the main service is a High Mass with three ministers and incense. Neither do we have Stations of the Cross, which would be regarded as extreme Romanism. We don't do genuflection either.

We can't be Anglo-Catholic as two of the clergy are female. Confusing or what..........

SS [Ultra confused]

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Patrick the less saintly
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All Saints Margaret Street also has red wine (I think, it may actually be rosé, which would be weird), everyone kneels who is physically able to do so and I've not seen any intinction, although I don't make a point of watching what others are doing. We also don't have stations of the cross on permanent display. In fact, with the exception of a single shrine to the BVM, there is remarkably little stuff in the church, largely because the building itself is so elaborate.

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gianbattista
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quote:
All Saints Margaret Street also has red wine (I think, it may actually be rosé, which would be weird), everyone kneels who is physically able to do so and I've not seen any intinction, although I don't make a point of watching what others are doing. We also don't have stations of the cross on permanent display.
I've never seen anyone intinct at ASMS, either, and I've noticed it elsewhere, such as the Parish I Belong to But No Longer Attend in the American hinterland. And I've always been struck by the absence of the Stations there -- but I've never been there during Lent. Patrick's comment suggest that temporary Stations might be installed there for Lent. Is this the case?

It is difficult for me to classify the communion wine I've had at any number of Anglican Parishes (C of E and TEC) as either red or white. It's usually a sweet fortified wine (watered down slightly, of course), mirroring, perhaps, what was generally available to parishes in the 16th and 17th centuries? Parish I No Longer Attend does use red, picked up at the local wine shop, or even the grocery store. My A-C parish in Los Angeles uses white, but only because (I was told) "red spots the linens" -- and indeed the unbleached linen cassock albs at my other US parish aforementioned are liberally speckled with purple stains.

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PD
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I never do too well on the High/Low lists because my parish has its own mish-mash of English and US practice. This is thanks to an English rector in a US parish.

Vestments: Robed celebrant and server(s). Eucharistic vestments are the norm for the celebrant at the main Euchrist. However, you might see me "dressing for dinner" if it is hot. You might occasionally see rochet/surplice and stole at communion on weekdays and at 9am on Sundays if MP has been on the long side. MP and EP - always choir habit.

Rubrics - what few there are in the 1928 BCP are followed down to taking the ablutions after the blessing. No elevations at the Dominical words, just the gestures prescribed by the rubrics. Sgn of the cross three times in the epiclesis. Lesser elevation at the end of the Canon. There's a certain amount of bowing. Most folks bow entering and leaving the church and sanctuary and before and after administering or receiving Communion. I bow at the Holy Name, the Incarnatus, and the end of the Canon; the H-A-P only at the end of the Canon.

The Gospel procession is reserved to Christmas, Easter, Pentecost. Otherwise it is read by the deacon from the lectern, or by the celebrant from the North side of the sanctuary.

Wafer bread and port for Communion. Intinction is discouraged; dipping it yourself is banned. Periodic reminders about what the rubrics concerning the reception of commmunion actually say. I have to say that I have never run across intinction until I came to the USA.

The sanctuary is fairly small. The pulpit is now rather a prominent object to the right of the altar at the front of the sanctuary. The communion rails a placed a few feet into the nave for convenience sake. There are Stations of the Cross, which I would like to see disappear outside of Lent/Passiontide. Two candles and a full-height frontal on the altar, also two standards. Reservation of the Sacrament solely for sick.

Music - Kyrie, Sanctus, Agnus Dei and Gloria always sung at 10.30am on Sundays when it is HC. Collect, Preface and Lord's Prayer sung on the white and red Sundays. At the monthly 10.30am MP the Venite and Canticles are sung; the rest of the service is spoken. Same goes for EP when it is sung. Four hymns at MP/HC; three at EP if there is a sermon. Very occasionally we have incense.

I tend to think that in US we come across as MOTR, maybe MOTR leaning to Low. The other Continuing Anglican parish in town alternates MP and EP at both services and is Low Church.

PD

[ 23. July 2009, 00:17: Message edited by: PD ]

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WearyPilgrim
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I've found all of this very interesting. I'm an American Congregationalist who considers himself to be Middle-to-High MOTR on Martin L's scale. I follow the Lectionary, our services feature unison prayers (including a Prayer of Confession and occasional litanies), we use paraments featuring the colors of the Christian Year, and I wear a collar and Geneva gown (no stole, however --- I have a theological objection to it).

A curious omission to all the previous posts is any mention of preaching. Where are the notable preachers of our generation to be found? Does great preaching cross liturgical lines in the Commonwealth? What, if any, emphasis is placed upon the homily in High and Anglo-Catholic parishes?

Here in the States, the best-known of good, solid preachers are generally mainline and evangelical Protestant folk: Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists. I can name a mere handful of notable Episcopal preachers, and to be honest, no Roman Catholics come to mind. ++Fulton Sheen was probably the last great R.C. preacher in the U.S.; he died twenty-odd years ago.

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Patrick the less saintly
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quote:
Originally posted by gianbattista:
' Patrick's comment suggest that temporary Stations might be installed there for Lent. Is this the case?


No. I'm not sure if the parish even owns a set. Perhaps the devotions are done without visual aids. At school, we used projected images on large screens with everyone standing in one place. Not ideal, but it worked in a pinch.

Actually my school chapel is an interesting case for the The Ecclesiantics Altimeter.

Tat: minimal during my time there, with street-clothes for the office (wether led by a priest or layperson) and a stole over clericals for the Eucharist, which is precisely the least amount allowed by the rubrics of the ECUSA. I hear they've started robbing for MP now and possibly wearing Eucharistic vestments.

Language: 1979 BCP all the way, Eucharistic Prayer C (yes, the Star Trek one) for Eucharistic services, The readings from a variety of contemporary translations of the Bible, including, I am sad to say, the Message (somewhat ironically, given that no paraphrase translations were allowed for RE classes).

Ceremonial: standard low-MotR Episcopalian, with signs of the cross at all the right moments but no bowing.

Music: One of two types, namely good or bad. When our music teacher played the organ, there were respectable hymns, including both traditional favourites and the sort that would make Max happy. One days when there were student worship leaders, it was invariably the worst sort of 'Jesus is my boyfriend' crap, with the only exception being a couple of spirituals that people could actually sing. We sang 'Praise the Source of Faith and Learning' fairly frequently, but never that favourite of Episcopal school, 'Sing to the Lord a New Song', presumably because the line about 'loud boiling test tubes' was seen as being over the top.

Preaching: for those sermons given by the chaplain, the focus was on how God was a good sort of chap who valued good manners, honest living and public service. However, most of the speakers in chapel were students, only a small number of whom alluded to God at all (we had to give a speech in chapel our final year). When the headmaster would speak, we knew we could be treated to a lengthy piece of Neoplatonic philosophy or a anecdote about his cat and very seldom anything in between.

All this might lead one to conclude that it was a rather evangelical sort of place, and yet there was some awareness of the liturgical year, including student-produced Lent books and Stations of the Cross for Holy Week. For major school events, like the annual baccalaureate Mass the order of the day was surplices with hoods, vergers and Gregorian chant. When the headmaster was installed during an Evensong, they even managed to get the Bishop to administer an oath in Latin, which he barely managed (one of the governors failed spectacularly and engendered some sniggering after he rendered a sentence meaningless by leaving out the verb). For these occasions, the most liturgically aware priest in the diocese was brought in to be MC (it helped that he was a parent and a governor).

I don't think that a concrete Churchmanship can be read into this, it seemed to be an Anglican establishment trying to be both ecumenical (like most Episcopal schools in the States, only a fairly small minority of students were Episcopalian) and true to its roots at the same time.

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Pommie Mick
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In addition to the stations of the cross, I'm interested in how other fixtures and pieces of ecclesial furniture fit in.

For example, most low churches would be unlikely to have a crucifix anywhere in the building. As far as Anglican churches go, this would seem to be a highish MotR + phenomena.

Big six on of behind the altar - in Melbourne this is definitely a sign towards high church.

Stone altars? They're thin on the ground where I am, and would seem to be the domain of the 'highest of the high'. Even the AC shrine St Peter's Eastern Hill doesn't have a stone altar, although all their Holy Tables have altar stones installed. Funnily enough, I do know of one evangelically leaning parish that has a stone/concrete altar-table. Not quite sure how that happened!

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Also Ken - My Catholic Church has more in common with the Low Church list than the High Church list.

That's cos you are low-church Catholics of course. Which is the main tradition of the rump or English RCism before it got Hispanified recently. [Snigger]

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L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
Looking at Ken's list, I see High Churches use white wine and don't hand over the chalice to individual communicants. Where does this leave my parish, which has always used red wine and has encouraged communicants to take the chalice into their hands, as specified in the BCP rubric? But the main service is a High Mass with three ministers and incense. Neither do we have Stations of the Cross, which would be regarded as extreme Romanism. We don't do genuflection either.

We can't be Anglo-Catholic as two of the clergy are female. Confusing or what..........

SS [Ultra confused]

My parish church has bells and smells, stations, angelus, benediction every week, Roman Rite bits inserted into the liturgy, resolutions AB & C but has RED wine.

They aren't that keen on people taking the chalice into their hands but allow if you insist (I am very tall, receive standing and the administrant cannot see is s/he holds on).

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Intinction doesn't seem particularly 'high' to me either. The most stratospheric places I can think of is an on-the-tongue place (who grudgingly put Our Lord in my hand, and I think are sort of freaked out when I touch the Cup).

quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
(no stole, however --- I have a theological objection to it).

Would you mind elaborating on this?

The only objection to the stole I've encountered (from evangelical Anglicans) is that Eucharistic vestments are rags of screaming popery, which I regard as ecclesiological rather than theological.

quote:

A curious omission to all the previous posts is any mention of preaching. Where are the notable preachers of our generation to be found? Does great preaching cross liturgical lines in the Commonwealth? What, if any, emphasis is placed upon the homily in High and Anglo-Catholic parishes?

The old saw runs 'The higher the church the shorter the sermon.' Although I am not an Anglo-Catholic, some of the finest sermons I've ever heard have been given by Anglo-Catholics (and commendably brief).

ETA: Sermons also run along a bell-curve. The higher or lower one gets, the more likely one is to hear exposition of the lessons. MOTR sermons seem much more likely to feature anecdotes about pets, readings from the newspaper, or twee poetry.

[ 23. July 2009, 16:26: Message edited by: Hooker's Trick ]

Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
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# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:

Stone altars? They're thin on the ground where I am...

Stone altars sometimes reveal more about the architect than the congregation. I know of at least one church near Boston with a stone altar. If you go into the nether depths, you discover it is masonry all the way down to the bedrock--far exceeding what would be necessary to support the weight of the altar.

The congregation--at its highest--was MOTR. At the time the church was built, it seems to have been lower still. The architect, however, was very High.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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moonlitdoor
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# 11707

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Excuse my ignorance but what did it mean when Matins referred to the chalice being vested ? Does the chalice have a robe on it and if so does this last through the whole Eucharist including when people are drinking from it ?

I have never seen this - what sort of churches do it ? I have been to churches with incense, reservation of the sacrament, prayers to the Virgin Mary and other things but the chalices all looked the same as they do in evangelical churches.

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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai

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