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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: The Ecclesiantics Altimeter
leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
Even MotR Anglicans keep Palm Sunday, Maunday Thursday, Good Friday, the Easter Vigil and Easter Morning. It's Tenebrae that really sorts the sheep from the goats, or the Catholics from the rest.

Not the way I described it, they don't. It is only very, very recently that we have even had authorised liturgies for these ceremonies. For most of my lifetime, we nicked stuff from the Roman Missal to accompany them.

Few MOTR do the Palm Sunday passion - they use the palm gospel.

Few MOTR have an altar of repose and watch - they are more likely to some sort of Passover re-enactment with an informal eucharist at the end.

Few MOTR do communion (from the reserved sacrament)on Good Friday. (Some evangelicals actually celebrate the eucharist) They (MOTR) are more likely to do the 3 hours or the last hour as a preaching event and join in an ecumenical procession of witness.

Few MOTR do the Easter Vigil. They don't like to 'jump the gun' and prefer Sunday morning Holy Communion and the blessing of Easter Gardens.

As for Tenebrae, I thought that went out with Vatican 2 but is resurrected by some as a liturgical concert because there is such good music for it. I prefer my Lasssus and Gesualdo on my CD while I sip gin.

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Curiosity killed ...

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  • Palm Sunday: Blessing of palms and procession TO church from somewhere else (without any wretched donkeys! We are doing liturgy, not drama.), Passion Gospel sung or read dramatically. - mmm done the procession with donkeys - that stopped when the donkeys died shortly afterwards. When the second died, the donkeys were decided against, although the procession continued. Nowadays in a different church, the procession happens, but doesn't come from somewhere else. Dramatic reading of the Passion means no sermon that day.
  • Maundy Thursday: Foot washing, procession of the blessed sacrament to the altar of repose and watch until midnight all except the foot washing here. Did the footwashing in a previous parish though. You missed the putting out of candles and stripping of the altar, and here the closing of the reredos triptych. Also Compline service at midnight - sung plainchant.
  • Good Friday: Ministry of the word, longer-than-usual intercessions, veneration of the cross either corporately or, better, individual kissing, general communion from the sacrament reserved yesterday yes all of that, although it's a corporate veneration of the Cross, sung version of the reproaches.
  • Easter Eve or very early Easter Sunday: blessing of the new fire, lighting and procession of the paschal candle, vigil readings, blessing of the font, renewal of baptismal vows and sprinkling, first mass of Easter. All but the first mass of Easter at the Saturday evening Easter vigil service. The blessing of a new fire, procession of the Paschal Candle and sending out candles to the team churches at the dawn service which is at 6am.
  • And, because catholics like fun, I might add, plenty of gin or champagne later on. after the main Easter Day service (with incense) Pashka and Kuhlich with wine.

I still don't think we're that high church. I've been to much spikier.

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Patrick the less saintly
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quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
I suspect that I Presby. tenebrae is not like an Anglo-Catholic tenebrae.

Almost certainly not, but it would I suppose have the same purpose. It is an intriguing thought - iIs anyone able to describe such a ceremony, please?
Tenebrae is traditionally a group of three services, of which the first (on Holy Wednesday) is often the only one celebrated. The service, or each service, consists of readings and prayers, accompanied by the gradual extinguishing of candles. For the first service, the readings are all from the book of Lamentations, for the second they are from the writings of St Augustine and, for the third, from the Epistles of Paul. The prayers are amongst the most mornful in the Church. Like many of the pre-Vatican II Holy Week liturgies, it contains some disturbing references to the role of 'the Jews', which would need to be altered to fit into a mainstream 21st century church.


Here is an explanation of the liturgy and here is a contemporary liturgy for the Wednesday service only from the ECUSA. I can't find the traditional liturgies online.

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Jengie jon

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Tenebrae that I experienced involved a set of biblical readings interspersed with hymns and a gradual turning off of the lights so that after the last reading all the lights in the church were in darkness. The readings were largely the passion narrative. The congregation then left in silence.

Jengie

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Metapelagius
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It was not so much Tenebrae of the Roman rite about which I was expressing curiosity - but Jengie Jon has answered the question, for which thanks.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
Even MotR Anglicans keep Palm Sunday, Maunday Thursday, Good Friday, the Easter Vigil and Easter Morning. It's Tenebrae that really sorts the sheep from the goats, or the Catholics from the rest.

Not the way I described it, they don't. It is only very, very recently that we have even had authorised liturgies for these ceremonies. For most of my lifetime, we nicked stuff from the Roman Missal to accompany them.

I think, unfortunately, you are probably right. But since the traditional liturgies have been officially authorised (first Lent, Holy Week & Easter and then Common Worship, they have been adopted in some surprising places. MOTR is creeping up the candle in some respects (as it's slipping down it in others: witness Curiosity killed's church with only 3/4 Sundays with Sung Eucharist).

Ken: you said with respect to your church:
quote:
Confessions - no, never
. I'm sure that you don't have a Victorian confessional-box, or a notice saying "Father X will be available to hear confessions on Saturdays at 5pm". But are you telling us that if someone went to your vicar wishing to make a confession and receive absolution, s/he would be told to go elsewhere?

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I'm sure that you don't have a Victorian confessional-box, or a notice saying "Father X will be available to hear confessions on Saturdays at 5pm". But are you telling us that if someone went to your vicar wishing to make a confession and receive absolution, s/he would be told to go elsewhere?

Of course not. But then the same applies to the local Methodist minister. (& probably the Baptists if you stretched your definition of absolution)

But in the context of a church altimeter we're surely thinking abut publically advertised confession, or what you might call liturgical confession, pat of the cycle of services. Evangelicals don't have that.

Actually I have once or twice seen a public declaration of sin in an evangelical Anglican church. I thik its pretty marginal but it does happen, perhaps more often at the charismatic end of things. I mean someone making a testimony before the congregation to a sin they have repented of.

Hardly a typically Anglican thing but it has been important in many revivalist movements anf gets into bits of the CofE now and again.

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Ken

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
Even MotR Anglicans keep Palm Sunday, Maunday Thursday, Good Friday, the Easter Vigil and Easter Morning. It's Tenebrae that really sorts the sheep from the goats, or the Catholics from the rest.

Not the way I described it, they don't. It is only very, very recently that we have even had authorised liturgies for these ceremonies. For most of my lifetime, we nicked stuff from the Roman Missal to accompany them.

I think, unfortunately, you are probably right. But since the traditional liturgies have been officially authorised (first Lent, Holy Week & Easter and then Common Worship, they have been adopted in some surprising places.
Indeed and that is great. These rites belong to the whole church, not to one party.

LH & E did not come out until 1984. before that, A Manual for Holy Week came out in 1967 but was largely ignored because it was 'too high' for most C of E parishes and 'not correct enough' for parishes that were already using the Roman Rite.

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Doublethink.
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Does the presence of a gift shop or a children's area contribute to height - or has that just become universal.

I imagine that there are some places that might object at least to a shop - on moneychangers in the temple type grounds.

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Curiosity killed ...

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There are people who will not buy from stalls in church, on the moneychangers in the temple principle, be they fairtrade stalls or fundraising efforts for other charities.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Tenebrae that I experienced involved a set of biblical readings interspersed with hymns and a gradual turning off of the lights so that after the last reading all the lights in the church were in darkness. The readings were largely the passion narrative. The congregation then left in silence.

Jengie

Mother Preacher used to run those before she retired.

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PD
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I don't know where our Holy Week observance puts us on the candle, but here goes:

Palm Sunday

Blessing and Procession of Palms. Start in the parish hall and then go the long way to the church. Passiontide Red vestments for the whole thing.

Monday through Wednesday
Said Matins and Eucharist in the mornings celebrated in passiontide red. BCP 1928 Liturgy.

Maundy Thursday
High Celebration of the Eucharist in festal red during the evening. No foot washing. Three large hosts consecrated, two of which go in the sacrament house. No altar of repose. Altars are stripped at the end of Mass and Evensong.

Good Friday
Solemn Liturgy in the early evening. Consists of PB Ante-Communion, Solemn Collects, reproaches, veneration of the cross (v. low key) and mass of the Pre-sanctified. Passiontide red vestments. The remaining large host is put in the Easter sepulchre, and a watch set.

Easter Vigil
Four lesson version of the pre-Pius XII rite slightly adjusted to take account of late mediaeval English custom.

Easter morning
Host is moved back to the sacrament house before MP.

Usually our liturgy is Prayer Book Catholic, so we probably follow the trajectory, but in our own sweet way.

PD

[ 29. August 2009, 15:18: Message edited by: PD ]

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Doublethink.
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*bump*

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ken
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I've seen stalls selling books or tat everywhere from the parish church at the bottom of the hill & top pf the candle (which happens to be the HQ of Forward in Faith) to the one at the top of the hill and bottom of the candle (my low-down Open Evo place) So within the CofE round here I don't think it is an indication of highness at all.

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Ken

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Angloid
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Ah, but what sort of tat does yours sell, ken? Statues of Latimer and Ridley?

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leo
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I'd buy one of Latimer - he was a socialist before his time. (Bishop Charles Gore preached a stunning sermon about Latimer as a Christian Socialist).

I hate tat but if I have to have some, I want socialist tat - all politics and no lace knickers or cottas.

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'd buy one of Latimer - he was a socialist before his time. (Bishop Charles Gore preached a stunning sermon about Latimer as a Christian Socialist).

I hate tat but if I have to have some, I want socialist tat - all politics and no lace knickers or cottas.

Icon of Conrad Noel, maybe?

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daviddrinkell
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'd buy one of Latimer - he was a socialist before his time. (Bishop Charles Gore preached a stunning sermon about Latimer as a Christian Socialist).

I hate tat but if I have to have some, I want socialist tat - all politics and no lace knickers or cottas.

Icon of Conrad Noel, maybe?
LOL - but for all his eccentricities, I'm not sure you could call Conrad Noel an afficionado of tat. I suppose it depends on one's definition of tat. He was very scornful of continental style vestments, and mentions in his autobiography a cope delivered to a spikey shack in Portsmouth which was so stiff that it was once used as a tray to serve coffee.

Is it still tat if it's English rite a la Percy?

The thought of Conrad on an icon is a very interesting one....

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David

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by daviddrinkell:
[

Is it still tat if it's English rite a la Percy?

Well, yes, but it's tasteful tat. It's the John Lewis tendency of the C of E. (Which despite its consumerist overtones might have just appealed to Noel, being as it's a workers' co-operative and all that.)
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dj_ordinaire
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quote:
Originally posted by daviddrinkell:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'd buy one of Latimer - he was a socialist before his time. (Bishop Charles Gore preached a stunning sermon about Latimer as a Christian Socialist).

I hate tat but if I have to have some, I want socialist tat - all politics and no lace knickers or cottas.

Icon of Conrad Noel, maybe?
LOL - but for all his eccentricities, I'm not sure you could call Conrad Noel an afficionado of tat. I suppose it depends on one's definition of tat.
As far as Bl. Father Noel is concerned, does
this count as tat?

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+Chad

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Bl. Conrad also had one of these hanging in Thaxted Church.

Certainly this counts as Noelian tat. [Smile]

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Chad (The + is silent)

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It's the John Lewis tendency of the C of E.

What a wonderful way of putting it. And thinking about it, it works the other way round: John Lewis is the Percy Dearmer tendency among department stores.

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daviddrinkell
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quote:
Originally posted by +Chad:
Bl. Conrad also had one of these hanging in Thaxted Church.

Certainly this counts as Noelian tat. [Smile]

"This" being a picture of Noel wearing what he called an 'English habit' and a Canterbury cap. The rig that St. Percy pointed out to a heckling passer-by (who called him a papist)as being what Ridley, Latimer and Cranmer wore as they went to the stake.

I love the John Lewis analogy and accept that there is such a thing as 'tasteful tat'.

Noel was definitely a champagne socialist, even something of a snob. He was born into the richer classes and never really seems to have left them.

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David

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by daviddrinkell:
quote:
Originally posted by +Chad:
Bl. Conrad also had one of these hanging in Thaxted Church.

Certainly this counts as Noelian tat. [Smile]

"This" being a picture of Noel wearing what he called an 'English habit' and a Canterbury cap. The rig that St. Percy pointed out to a heckling passer-by (who called him a papist)as being what Ridley, Latimer and Cranmer wore as they went to the stake.

I love the John Lewis analogy and accept that there is such a thing as 'tasteful tat'.

Noel was definitely a champagne socialist, even something of a snob. He was born into the richer classes and never really seems to have left them.

Conrad Noel was an individualist and an eccentric, and the Church would be the poorer if we did not have a few of those somewhere! That said, I am not sure what positive achievements can be chalked up to him other than getting a lot of people to thnk rather than merely think.

PD

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daviddrinkell
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
quote:
Originally posted by daviddrinkell:
quote:
Originally posted by +Chad:
Bl. Conrad also had one of these hanging in Thaxted Church.

Certainly this counts as Noelian tat. [Smile]

"This" being a picture of Noel wearing what he called an 'English habit' and a Canterbury cap. The rig that St. Percy pointed out to a heckling passer-by (who called him a papist)as being what Ridley, Latimer and Cranmer wore as they went to the stake.

I love the John Lewis analogy and accept that there is such a thing as 'tasteful tat'.

Noel was definitely a champagne socialist, even something of a snob. He was born into the richer classes and never really seems to have left them.

Conrad Noel was an individualist and an eccentric, and the Church would be the poorer if we did not have a few of those somewhere! That said, I am not sure what positive achievements can be chalked up to him other than getting a lot of people to thnk rather than merely think. PD
I would argue that the present look of the interior of Thaxted Church is sufficient memorial to Conrad Noel. The red flag has gone, of course, but the spacious, uncluttered look of the place is very holy.

Now, if they'd just get their unique early 19th century organ done up - it's been teetering on the verge of being unplayable as long as I can remember - which is going back forty years or so....

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David

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by daviddrinkell:
The red flag has gone, of course,...

"of course"? [Frown]

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by daviddrinkell:
The red flag has gone, of course,...

"of course"? [Frown]
I echo ken's disappointment with a [Mad]

I think I've visited Thaxted church twice. The first time must have been soon after the death of Noel's successor (Jack Putterill?) when enough of the Noel and socialist ethos still remained. The second time was after the Forward in Faith takeover. Whatever the merits or not of the (dead horse) ideology of FinF, so many of them - not all, by any means - seem to represent a political as well as ecclesiastical conservatism. I rather think that the chapel dedicated to John Ball, the rebel priest of the Peasants' Revolt, had been abandoned. [Disappointed]

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New Yorker
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So, if the left has the red flag, what do we on the God-Fearing Righteous Right have? A blue flag?

Out of curiosity does the Labor Party in the UK still sing The Red Flag?

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Albertus
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I believe they do, though what goes through the minds of some of them as they do it, I have no idea.

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Doublethink.
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*bump*

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
So, if the left has the red flag, what do we on the God-Fearing Righteous Right have? A blue flag?

Out of curiosity does the Labor Party in the UK still sing The Red Flag?

As far as I can figure out, the answer to that in the USA is "the Stars and Stripes." I really dislike national flags in church except on special occasions. I have managed to get the flag shuffled as far out the church as the sacristy door, which is at the back of the Church.

I have a dim recollection that the Red Flag disappeared from party conferences. I have to be extremely careful not to start singing the following when I hear "O Tannenbaum."

"The people's flag...

or worse still,

"The working class
Can kiss my arse!
I got the foreman's job as last."

[Hot and Hormonal]

PD

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ken
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# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:

Out of curiosity does the Labor Party in the UK still sing The Red Flag?

Yes. we do. But most of the corporate clones don't know the words to anything except the first verse.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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leo
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I'm surprised they know even the first verse!

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chiltern_hundred
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# 13659

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quote:
"The people's flag...

or worse still,

"The working class
Can kiss my arse!
I got the foreman's job as last."

Don't you mean

"The people's flag is palest pink,
It's not as red as you might think ..."?

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"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei

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Albertus
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# 13356

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Or the immortal Julian and Sandy's:

'The people's flag is deepest puce
With fleur de lys in pale chartreuse...'

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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[Cool] but *cough*badattackotangents*cough*


Eccles Host

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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PD
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# 12436

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I think most parishes are a bit of a blend these days, but the few folks who care will unerringly assign you to either the Low, MOTR or High camps.

My own church gives off mixed signals. Until the late 1980s it was decidedly Low in an old fashioned Episcopal way.

* Holy Communion was celebrated every Sunday at 8am
* MP and HC alternated at 10am
* EP and Bible Study midweek

There were two candles on the altar, no reservation, and music was restricted to Hymns, the Venite and Canticles at MP, and the Kyrie, Sanctus, Agus Dei and Gloria at HC. Vestments - cassock, surplice, and tippet/stole.

"Phase Two" - from 1990 onwards - saw the place moved into the MOTR camp. The six office lights appeared on the back of the altar; Eucharistic vestments and reservation were introduced; and MP disappeared from the worship schedule. Elevations at the words of institution became the norm, and a sanctus bell appeared.

The next Rector tried to take the place Anglo-Catholic and all hell broke loose, and 40% of the congregation (and most of the money) left. He introduced the Missal, incense, regular confession times, Stations of the Cross, and a holy water stoup by the door. The vestry drop kicked that rector out of the door and reverted to MOTR as per phase two, but the Stations and the Holy Water stoup survive.

I have tended to follow the MOTR tradition but there has been some wiggling around:

* Changed the service times from 8am and 10am to 9am and 10.30am to alleviate the "8 at 8 and no parking at 10am" syndrome
* I junked the office lights and bought two standard candlesticks which stand either end of the footpace
* the veiled stack on the altar has given way to chalice and paten with a purificator, two corporals and a burse on the credence table.
* I have cut back a bit on the use of the sanctus bell.
* The Proper Preface and the Lord's Prayer are now chanted fairly frequently - usually three Sundays out of four but not at all during Lent.
* When I was still in my Anglo-Catholic phase, I introduced incense on Christmas, Easter, Pentecost and All Saints Sunday.
* I reintroduced MP before the 9am Low Mass on Sundays. Once a month we have MP as the Liturgy of the Word at the Eucharist for such as delight in Matins.
* I let it be known when I will be in church to hear confessions before the following major feasts - Christmas, Easter, Pentecost, and All Saints.
* We now have a midweek Eucharist and Bible Study instead of the old EP and Bible Study.
* We have a prayer meeting on Friday nights.

I am not sure whether we have drifted Higher or Lower, or just changed things about a bit.

PD

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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As a non-Anglican, and at the risk of derailing the thread, might I ask a question?

We non-conformists are "gathered churches", i.e. people can decide to join us, or not, according to whether they like the church they see. Changing things may well cause ructions because people find that the church they are being asked to sign up to isn't the church they first joined. But, basically, each church can decide what it wants to be. It is its members' own business (and, I hope, God's!)

Anglicans, however, are placed in geographical parishes (in the UK, anyway). Now, we all know that many Anglican churches, whether HTB style or those at the top of the candle, do function as gathered churches - people are part of them even though they live miles away. They pass many other churches to be where the perceived action is.

And so to my question: to what extent should a church which is truly serious about being a "Parish Church" make the effort to try and reflect or accommodate the whole range of churchmanship found within its locality, rather than choosing one distinctive approach which may drive many parishioners to other places of worship further away?

I know that, in practice, this is well-nigh impossible to do. But ought it to be attempted, especially in rural areas where parishes are widely-spaced and populations low?

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PD
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# 12436

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The default in rural areas used to be MOTR, which tended to offend no-one except the real enthusiasts at both ends. The Evangelicals might drift off to the chapels (but rarely did) - or encourage the parish to be a bit more Evangelical. Anglo-Catholics would usually go to a more sympathetic parish in a nearby town, encourage the vicar to be a bit more catholic, or do a bit of both.

What happens today is harder to discern. I think the time has come when Anglicans do not stick to the parish church unless it is bally awful or 180 to what one prefers. I think most of us now tolerate a notch either side of what we like, but then go somewhere else.

In my home area, the tendancy has been to create rural team ministries with a result that the villages usually get a watered down version of what goes on in the town church. My old MOTR-Low parish is now under the oversight (an apt word) of the vicar of the neighbouring town, who takes a one size fits all AffCaff approach. Not much attempt to accomodate differing opinions there I fear.

I tend to think that if the hierarchy of the Church of England wants to reach the semi-churched it needs to be less ashamed of its Protestant and Evangelical heritage. My mainly Low Church family has drifted away from regular church attendance as the C of E has drifted up the candle. I think there is a need for action there before it is too late.

PD

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Angloid
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INteresting that you should think the C of E has drifted up the candle, when most complaints at least here in Ecclesiantics are that it's been taken over by happy-clappy evangelicals. I think in fact people are a bit more tolerant, and 'catholic' liturgical practices are no longer seen as disloyal. But they, and traditional BCP style liturgy, are often seen as irrelevant.

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Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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PD
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# 12436

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
INteresting that you should think the C of E has drifted up the candle, when most complaints at least here in Ecclesiantics are that it's been taken over by happy-clappy evangelicals. I think in fact people are a bit more tolerant, and 'catholic' liturgical practices are no longer seen as disloyal. But they, and traditional BCP style liturgy, are often seen as irrelevant.

Actually, it is a lot more complex than my casual comments might suggest. It seems to me that the following has happened

Many Evangelical parishes have dumped the older forms of worship in favour of happy-clappy or happy-clappy lite. But there is also still a certain grouping (open evangelical?) who do "liturgy-lite." There is also a certain grouping (perhaps the majority?) that combnes litugy-lite with happy-clappy lite.

The MOTR crowd have tended to get a tiny bit higher as the Eucharist has taken over as the main service. Also a lot of places that used to be MOTR-High or Prayer Book Catholic, are now AffCaff.

Anglo-Catholics in general have come down a bit thanks to the post-Vatican II reforms.

There are still a few old outs who are traditional Evos/MOTR/A-C, but not many. I tend to find that the A-Cs tend to be most like "the church of my yoof," but theologically I am somewhere between MOTR and Evangelical.

PD

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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*bump da bump*

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

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**bump**

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

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*bumpety bump*

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Corvo
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# 15220

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How many CofE clergy do a full prostration at the start of the Good Friday liturgy?
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Thurible
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# 3206

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812.

Thurible

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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
812.

Thurible

813. You forgot me.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Some level of source for the figure would be helpful, come to that % of CofE clergy might be of value.

Think²
Eccles Host

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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3rdFooter
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# 9751

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I will and probably 7 of my colleagues in training so that's 821 next year.

3F

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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom

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leo
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# 1458

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Ah but how many of them will also be barefoot?

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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