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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Circus: Mafia in St. Damian's, Oxford (Page 4)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Circus: Mafia in St. Damian's, Oxford
Chelley

Ship's Old Boot
# 11322

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quote:
Originally posted by Hart:

When crises such as the current bru-ha-ha have erupted, since the days of the medieval butler Teufelchen, votes have been cast in public. Those voting later have, hence, had the advantage of knowing more precisely what effect their vote would have. If someone wishes to change that custom, it will be a later butler, not I. Under the voting system of our forebears (including our various forebears from the future), calculating what effect a vote would have was very easy. The current voting system makes that a little harder, so it is only fitting for the butler to share the results of his calculations (which anyone can make) with the whole group when available.

Fair enough! So the new voting system wasn't just to lose that ability of knowing what on earth we're doing! [Big Grin] (As you can tell, I'm still trying to get to grips with it - made a bit tougher by the lack of time mentioned above!)

--------------------
"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"

Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who

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Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857

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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I am well aware that I have (I think) never proposed not killing before,

"There is no shame in learning even at your age, old boy" Mumblebore mumbled to himself, "mens semper reformanda. Carry on with the good work."
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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quote:
Originally posted by Chelley:
AristonAstuanax:
quote:
The wine fellow digs himself out of a pile of God-knows-what in the cellar.
"Been busy! Can't lynch! Help! Don't kill anyone without me! Can't talk! Help! HELP!!"
*CRASH*
"Don't worry, nothing important broke, maybe just a bone or two."

Both of these would appear to be claims of being silenced by whatever the silencer is called. But AA went on to post votes for lynching. A bit puzzling? I had no problem accepting Eliab's claim as I'm sure he would've voted if he'd been able to having led the way with the nominations. Or was there a disaster in the wine cellar AA, that I missed and it wasn't actually a case of being silenced? [Eek!]
Dear goodness me. You didn't hear that awful collapse of all things holy and good in my cellar? It must have caused an earthquake of near-Biblical proportions, woman! I assure you, no mere prank could have caused that mess.

--------------------
“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Adam.

Like as the
# 4991

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Dawn comes to St. Damian's. Harold spies a red puddle spreading from the door to the wine cellar. Fearing another accident, he unlocks the door to find that the wine pouring from the broken bottles is intermingled with the blood pouring from the wine fellow's still warm dead body. A pocket book full of writing is poking out of his jacket. Unfortunately, it is too blood-soaked to read.

Archibold (Ariston) has been killed. He was the detective.

You have until 8am Eastern Wednesday to nominate, or until everyone is nominated whichever comes first. Most American clocks (and Harold's) fall back tonight, giving you an hour longer than you might think.

--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog

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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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Professor Eliabach wakes to the sound of hammering, with the occasional dull thud, as the late Mr Meng brings the hammer down on his shattered left thumb. Reanimation has not improved the cleaner's dexterity, and there are already several bone splinters breaking through the back of his hand, but he does not complain. There is a neat stack of three serviceable coffins already, with planks cut and stacked to assemble more. The cleaner works on steadily, without hurry or fatigue.

Ernst receives the news of Archibold's death with a grim smile. It is no bad thing to be vindicated, even if the price is somewhat higher than he would have wished to pay. What is to be done now?



Ten of us left. Archibold clears me. As I am neither infirmarian nor prankster, we could have a field of seven suspects left. That is as good as it's going to get, so we should certainly start lynching now. Having the infirmarian keep quiet has the obvious advantage, of course, that if he declares himself he'll be protecting himself, whereas if he keeps quiet he might well protect me. But if accused, he or she ought certainly to speak up, because we can't risk killing our best remaining asset.

There is a chance, though, that he investigated Prof. Berg, of course, and merely guessed right about me. So I will nominate the Professor unless he claims to be a special.

--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

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Right. I am officially no good at this game. I had thought that Heisen Berg had outed himself as the detective by accusing Archibold (Berg doesn't rank a final innocent; if the detective had investigated somebody and found them guilty that's what they'd have to have done). So I'm a bit perplexed.

Can anyone work out what the SCUM were thinking when they targeted Archibold St George? Were they just randomly lucky?

My thoughts at the moment are that Eliabach, Felis Rufa and Miss Chelley all endorsed my suggestion to rank someone second last. Eliabach has been cleared of attempted murder by Archibold. I'm inclined to clear all three of them for now.

I thought it was possible that the SCUM recognised that Archibold was the detective because other people had picked SCUM as their innocents.
Looking at the semi-final choices:
(Eliabach would have gone for Mumblebore)
I picked Mrs Layman.
Lucy picked Mumblebore.
O'Hocher picked Dyllis.
Mrs Layman picked Dyllis and Lucy jointly.
Felis picked me.
Mumblebore picked Heisen Berg.
Berg picked nobody.
Chelley picked me.
Dyllis picked nobody.

Unfortunately, there are rather too many different people in that list to be sure.
Dyllis and Berg acting together would get the list down to a plausibly low number of candidates that they could pick St George.
Thoughts?

[ 05. November 2011, 20:57: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Thoughts?

Archibald may have picked one of the SCUM as first choice AND an innocent last.

Possibly the SCUM reasoned that no one would place me last unless they had investigated me.

Possibly they thought (as I did) that he was suspiciously quiet, but knew that he couldn't be one of theirs so might be a detective keeping a low profile.

Who knows? He's dead, and although I have no intention of leting his fine brain go to waste, I regret that my skills are not such as to let him be any further help to us.

--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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Oh good. So glad to see that I get a chance to come back. Would someone please be a dear and make sure the SCUM don't kill our good professor of creepy things and corpse reanimation until after I'm back?
Many thanks. That was a very good bottle of claret that the nasty Tabs used to do me in with, and I have every intention of haunting them mercilessly for breaking it.
Oh, they also killed me, I suppose. It did dilute good wine with not especially remarkable blood. What a waste.

--------------------
“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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Eliabach pokes at the carcass's engorged liver with some distaste. That was no good, and was likely to complicate matters - indeed it was something of a surprise that this specimen's vitality had not failed of its own accord.

Some people, the professor reflects, really do not deserve to live. They take no care of their bodies at all. Ernst shakes his head. He has always taken excellent care of his bodies. At least, for as long as they are useful or interesting.


--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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On reflection, I am not yet finally decided on nominating my fellow professor. Please do not let my suspicions rush you into making, or not making, an over hasty role claim, dear chap.


E.V.E.

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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

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There's one flaw in Dai's reasoning, which is this: Archibald hadn't had time to investigate anyone yet. He was guessing, as were we all.

I am going to have review my thinking about Heisen Berg. I was clearly miaowing up the wrong tree about Archibald, and the reason I didn't suspect Heisen was that I didn't think they were on the same side.

--------------------
Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857

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quote:
Originally posted by AristonAstuanax:
1. Prof. Heisen Burg—Methinks the lady doth protest too much. We may have a lucky strike here.
1. Mr. Dai A. Logge—Of course, that "random" nomination might not have been so random.
3. Felis Rufa—I'm always suspicious of that one—she hides her guilt so very well. The kitty always seems to have something up her collar—has someone checked for a "made in Cambridgeshire" engraving on her bell?
4. TESS
5. Everyone I haven't mentioned
6. Ernst Eliabach—Yes, he's being strange. E.V.E. is always being strange. Perhaps he's finally learned that spouting "clever plans" is a good way to get yourself lynched.

This post must hold the clue from the detective's sole investigation in the one night he lived. He puts Eliabach behind "everyone I haven't mentioned". This means he puts him very conspicuously in last place. This is what we suggested the detective should do (albeit he did it unnecessarily conspicuously it seems to me, which may well have been his doom).
So I conclude he cleared him in the first night.
As he voted for a shared #1 this cannot be a clue to anything he knew.
I do not understand what he meant by saying "1. Prof. Heisen Burg—Methinks the lady doth protest too much." What lady? Why a lady? Heisen is a well-known man's name, no?

Further: Why did Smudgella vote for "no-lynching"? I find she behaves the same way she once did when she was guilty, occasional very general posts entirely "in character" with no reflective content (I did not play that time but in a PM told her she looked guilty to my outsider's eye - and she was). Voting "no-lynching" may be a hint that she did not want to arouse suspicion by casting the decisive vote for an innocent. It is what I reckon she'd do to appear inconspicuous.

Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857

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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Archibald may have picked one of the SCUM as first choice AND an innocent last.

What makes you think he may have put SCUM on #1 (and which of his two #1 do you mean?) other than by luck (or clever but unrevealed thinking - which you think exists in this game)?

[ 06. November 2011, 18:29: Message edited by: Sylvander ]

--------------------
A martyr is someone living with a saint.
2509

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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

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Oh bugger we're onto the second day, aren't we? Ignore my previous post.

[That pesky real life has been flat out lately]

--------------------
Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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Eliabach studies Mumbledore's cranium for a switch. Someone has clearly turned the man's brain back on.

quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
What makes you think he may have put SCUM on #1 (and which of his two #1 do you mean?) other than by luck (or clever but unrevealed thinking - which you think exists in this game)?

The first number 1, good sir. As voting preferences they may have been equal, but in the analysis that matters here, the first listed is the one that might have been a signal to us.

Though you are right to ask, because, of course, if Archibald had investigated young Berg, and positively knew him to be guilty, he would hardly have ranked anyone else equal to him. Unless, as might be the case, the second "1" was a slip of the pen. These things happen, but I see I am attempting to argue the possibility that it is not quite certain that Archibald cleared me, so I shall hold my tongue.

Yet the possibility exists that if Berg is guilty and our detective was, by luck or skill, right to suspect him first, then that would explain his murder. It is, of course, one possibility amongst many. Initially I thought that the possibility was reason enough to accuse Berg, but on reflection, I don't think that an especially strong basis for a nomination, and I am considering better ideas.

[ 06. November 2011, 19:40: Message edited by: Eliab ]

--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857

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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
if Archibald had investigated young Berg, and positively knew him to be guilty, he would hardly have ranked anyone else equal to him. Unless, as might be the case, the second "1" was a slip of the pen. These things happen,

Indeed. But hardly in conjunction with another slip of distinctly listing you last.
Maybe in a fit of modesty you wish not to point it out. But apparently your reputation is thus that it is very feasible that the detective might want to gain certainty about you in the first night before all others.

quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Yet the possibility exists that if Berg is guilty and our detective was, by luck or skill, right to suspect him first, then that would explain his murder.

Would it? Murdering someone who (by luck or knowledge) puts SCUM on #1 looks like rather a risky thing to do from their p.o.v., especially if that someone turns out to be the detective. Losing the detective for one piece of SCUM is a good deal for us not them.
Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
Maybe in a fit of modesty you wish not to point it out. But apparently your reputation is thus that it is very feasible that the detective might want to gain certainty about you in the first night before all others.

Quite possibly. It’s not what I would have done. If I were gifted with powers of detection, I would investigate those who were giving nothing away, and rely on my own analysis of the vocal and the suspicious. Not that I am to grateful to dear Archibald for confirming my innocence, of course.
quote:
Murdering someone who (by luck or knowledge) puts SCUM on #1 looks like rather a risky thing to do from their p.o.v., especially if that someone turns out to be the detective. Losing the detective for one piece of SCUM is a good deal for us not them.
Not so. The SCUM have to kill the detective or lose. No matter how suspicious the death, leaving them alive is worse. After all, once the detective has found a killer, they can expose him at any time – he is, essentially, a dead man walking (and again, I would be the expert there, I fear in more than one sense). Anyway, no matter how they did it, the fact is they did do it. They found their best target. We need to return the compliment.

[ 06. November 2011, 20:54: Message edited by: Eliab ]

--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Smudgie

Ship's Barnacle
# 2716

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p.....e...n.........w.....o....n..'t.......w........o.r...k
[brick wall]

--------------------
Miss you, Erin.

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Chelley

Ship's Old Boot
# 11322

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quote:
Originally posted by Smudgie:
p.....e...n.........w.....o....n..'t.......w........o.r...k
[brick wall]

Is this a cryptic clue?! [Eek!]

--------------------
"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"

Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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"My word, so much talk about a humble physicist. I'm quite unused to this spot in the limelight.

"I would contend that the detective's placing of me at the top of his voting list is more likely to be an act of self-preservation than underhand communication. He and I were, after all, the main contenders for lynching yesterday so I suppose his primary instinct would have been to try and save himself and his best means of doing so would have been to rank me first.

"I feel I should also explain again my apparent blood-thirst, since this is raising concerns about my allegiances to St. Damien's and the university. I actually suspect that events have proved me correct - some agitation for a hanging has caused plenty of reaction and many things to be said by many people. We now have information on which to proceed, and personally I would be more suspicious of those who are keeping quiet than those who are saying much and advocating a particular course."

--------------------
"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Chelley:
quote:
Originally posted by Smudgie:
p.....e...n.........w.....o....n..'t.......w........o.r...k

Is this a cryptic clue?!
The prankster has chosen Smudgie for his or her attentions.

--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
I do not understand what he meant by saying "1. Prof. Heisen Burg—Methinks the lady doth protest too much." What lady? Why a lady? Heisen is a well-known man's name, no?

I believe it to be a quotation from that Shakespeare person, who is widely admired in this country despite his being incapable of observing the unities, the only foundations of true drama. I am glad to see that as far as my fellow classicist is concerned he occupies the obscurities in which he deserves to languish.
(D. Logge)

--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

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I continue to think that Prof Heisen Berg is the best lead that we've got. This is not saying much, so he could well be innocent but I don't think we've got anything better to go on.
I nominate Prof Heisen Berg.
Anyone with any better ideas please put them forward.

--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505

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Mrs Layman stared at her husband in horror. "Another death? The wine keeper?" Oh, these SCUM were fiends indeed! How bitter a blow, to have the wine cellar now out of bounds, when everyone will be wanting to wash away the sorrow and angst of the situation all the more.

She looked at the list of those still alive at St.Damians. If Berg was not guilty, then Logge would be in trouble. As to the other professors, Mumblebore and Eliabach; their votes would be telling, but she did not think about either of them quite so darkly now. This left the gardener, the cooks, the librarian and the cat; and who knew what twisted thinking lay underneath the veneer of servitude among them.

What she desperately wanted to know, was why they had to nominate one person, if during the voting everyone was automatically listed as nominated anyway?

She shook her head. It was all very perplexing.

--------------------
Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.

Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Chelley

Ship's Old Boot
# 11322

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Chelley:
quote:
Originally posted by Smudgie:
p.....e...n.........w.....o....n..'t.......w........o.r...k

Is this a cryptic clue?!
The prankster has chosen Smudgie for his or her attentions.
I had had a long day when I read that! I even wondered for a moment if Smudgie had posted something on the wrong thread! I don't seem to be very good at interpretation having thought AA's earlier post was a 'being silenced' when it wasn't and then not twigging this one when it was. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"

Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who

Posts: 2870 | From: Wonderland, UK | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Chelley

Ship's Old Boot
# 11322

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quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:

What she desperately wanted to know, was why they had to nominate one person, if during the voting everyone was automatically listed as nominated anyway?

She shook her head. It was all very perplexing.

Eliabach nominated everyone before which was why we had everyone to vote for.

--------------------
"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"

Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who

Posts: 2870 | From: Wonderland, UK | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I continue to think that Prof Heisen Berg is the best lead that we've got. This is not saying much, so he could well be innocent but I don't think we've got anything better to go on.
I nominate Prof Heisen Berg.
Anyone with any better ideas please put them forward.

Only one, I'm afraid. Dai A. Logge (Dafyd) is my nomination.

I do so tentatively, because as a philosophy scholar, Mr Logge is an accomplished expert on seeming plausible and articulate, no matter what nonsense he is arguing. The difference between Dai innocent and Dai guilty is as thin as a baby's skull. I am not going to claim to be able to read him infallibly, and I would not believe anyone else who claimed to, but I'll give my reasons.

Dai proposed not lynching at the start, so that the detective can work. Nothing wrong with that, but it sat uneasily with me the next day, when he opposed (not very strenuously, not so as to commit himself) my plan to make reliance on the detective a little less precarious.

Then in the vote, when Professor Berg, his own nominee, was one vote away from death, Mr Logge was apparently convinced by his assertion of innocence, and tried to disassociate himself from the killing. I think that he knew very well that votes can't be changed, and (assuming she is innocent) Miss Smudgetta's most likely vote was to draw the noose - voting for a tie (as she in fact did). It was an odd vote - saying in effect "I'm tired and I just want the people who are confusing me to go away" - and, unless Dai and Dyllis are in league, unpredictable.

Now Berg's assertion really was rather bland - unless it was meant as a subtle role claim - and certainly nothing that a truthfully accused killer could not have said. I don't see why it would have so dramatically have affected inocent-Dai. I can see guilty-Dai seeing, or claiming to see, that Heisen was saying that we'd regret killing him for a reason - he's a special - and then wishing to disassociate himself, while relying on Dyllis to kill regardless. He could, after all, have killed Berg in the night, and possibly would have if Archibald St George had not looked like the better bet to be the detective.

Archibald's death made me think that at least one of the killers has a sound analytical mind, and Dai certainly qualifies there, but his analysis as to how the killers might have found the detective is uncharacteristically weak. Of course some of us might have listed SCUM in our last places, and the SCUM knew that those people were not detectives, but that doesn't explain how they narrowed it down to one right choice. We can't know exactly, of course, but Dai is certainly capable of finding a much more credible route to that conclusuion than he suggested.

And now he nominates Berg again. That seems wrong, because Berg's assertion of innocence is, it seems to me, no more or less convincing now as it was yesterday, and then Dai seemed to find it compelling. What's changed? He now knows that Heisen can't be the detective. He might, though, still be the infirmarian, and if Logge is thinking on those lines, he can't reliably kill him at night.

I'm not sure of any of that. I never will be sure about Dai A. Logge. He is as slippery as viscera, but not as easy to read. Still, I can construct a more plausible account supposing him to be guilty than I can supposing him to be innocent, so he is my nomination.

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Now Berg's assertion really was rather bland - unless it was meant as a subtle role claim - and certainly nothing that a truthfully accused killer could not have said. I don't see why it would have so dramatically have affected inocent-Dai.

As I said, there was nothing special about the claim itself. But I then thought he'd tried to send a signal in the way that he voted.
Also, you and Felis Rufa had agreed with him about putting Archibold in first place and most of the time (except now) I'd trust anything on which the two of you agree above my own judgement. I can talk a fine analysis, but my intuition is crap.
(Also, if I were guilty I'd be keeping quieter than usual.)

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Sylvander
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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Eliabach studies Mumbledore's cranium for a switch. Someone has clearly turned the man's brain back on.

The mouse has taken over and wrestled control from my hands, that's why. But I'll be back.
I nominate Dyllis Smudgella for reasons I gave. And because I love to imagine her struggling in desperation with that blasted poison ink while under accusation... Nothing more inconvenient for a fair trial than a talking defendant [Big Grin]
But I am quite happy to vote for Dai if that is where the swing goes, as I find his latest explanation not very convincing.

[ 07. November 2011, 11:51: Message edited by: Sylvander ]

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Adam.

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quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
Nothing more inconvenient for a fair trial than a talking defendant [Big Grin]

"[cough]... just to remind you, good professor, that the cook is quite able to talk, it is simply her voting and grocery-list writing abilities which are temporarily disabled."

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Dafyd
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For what it's worth, if either Berg or myself are guilty then killing that person is going to be more revealing of the other SCUM than getting lucky and killing somebody else.
That's a big if and one of us at most is guilty.

In a self-serving fashion, I think Berg will be more revealing if guilty than I will, just because there were more votes cast to condemn him.
That is, if Berg's guilty that would clear me, Lucy, O'Hocher, Mumblebore (who put him last, which I think would be too obvious for a mafia member), and Mrs Layman. If you then rule out in addition Eliabach, Felis Rufa, and Chelley that leaves Dyllis Smudgetta.
If Berg's innocent I'd clear Smudgetta - I can't believe in a mafia member who'd vote for a no lynching when they had the chance to decide it innocently.
If I'm guilty, it clears Berg, O'Hocher, and Mrs Layman and probably Smudgetta, but puts Felis Rufa and Miss Chelley back on the table. So you'd be left with Mumblebore, Felis Rufa, Chelley, and Lucy as suspects.
If you find we're both innocent then I think you know only that Eliabach, and probably Felis Rufa, Chelley and Smudgetta are innocent. That's better than nothing I suppose.

Both Mumblebore and O'Hocher have expressed suspicions of Smudgetta. (X-posted with Mumblebore's nomination.)

[ 07. November 2011, 12:30: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Sylvander
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quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
Nothing more inconvenient for a fair trial than a talking defendant [Big Grin]

"[cough]... just to remind you, good professor, that the cook is quite able to talk, it is simply her voting and grocery-list writing abilities which are temporarily disabled."
I told I was going to regain control from that mouse and return to old form!

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A martyr is someone living with a saint.
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Lucy shakes her head. "This is all so horrible, it absolutely must be a nightmare. There is no way it could be true. Absolutely not. How is anyone supposed to cope with people being murdered everywhere. It's not just horrible, it's not fair. I cannot handle this!
Speaking of which, where is that cook Dyllis. She's never around when you need her. Off flirting with the professors or breaking honey jars, but not much cooking! Whatever is she doing these days anyway?"

The more Lucy thought about this, the more it worried her. She could see why people were suspicious of Professor Logge, but his behavior seemed exceedingly reasonable to her. Really Dyllis Smudgetta's behavior was much more off, to her mind.

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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
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If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
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I do think Miss Smudgetta's vote yesterday was bizarre, but is it indicative of guilt? What would she gain from such odd behaviour if she were one of the killers?

If Berg were guilty, and Dyllis was protecting him, then the suspicious interpretation makes sense. Otherwise, it's just as unusual if she is innocent. Therefore, it seems to me, that Professor Berg would be a better preference to Smudgetta. Although at the moment I'm still going with my own nominee.

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Richard Dawkins

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Lucy nods and sniffles in her tea. "Yes, I worry about Professor Berg too. But he said he was important to us, so I figured that if he is a horrible murderer, so probably is my trusted cook! Since she has not made such a claim, better to face her first and then if she is guilty, we know who the other murderer is. If she is not, perhaps we will have avoided killing our doctor.

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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An die Freude
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:

Both Mumblebore and O'Hocher have expressed suspicions of Smudgetta. (X-posted with Mumblebore's nomination.)

Problem is, I have also pointed out that I don't think she's guilty - she seems just the way I expected her to play. I interpret her move as realizing that Archibold had a special role as well as believing Prof Berg's claim to a special role. This could be because of Scumminess just as well as believing rightly, just like it would seem the SCUM did, that Archibold was a special. I don't know what to say in her defense, but just like yesterday, it seems to me that she acts like she would if she was the real deal - which is a problem since she's so silent and difficult to trace. However, look at the time and place of her vote. If she was SCUM, she could easily have gotten away with lynching either Archibold St George or prof Heisen Berg, both of whom she in that case would have reason to believe carried special roles. Archibold was killed in the night, when Smudgetta could have taken out someone else, had she been SCUM. Voting late, she'd have had the time to confer with her companions, but instead it seems she saved the man they later killed as well as another unknown substance.

I think there are things speaking FOR Smudgetta as well as against her, and I'm not sure she's the most suspicious character at present. Just thought I'd add something on that side. On another note, I think there is someone I'm ready to accuse.

Barbara Layman (Banner Lady)

I think you're piggybacking too much (to use Dai A. Logge's expression), making too many vague comments, and acting suspiciously in general. You have so far added nothing to the discussion but the fact that those talkative are suspicious. I believe you're wrong in this aspect, (at least if it's for its own sake) and I think you're grasping for shadows and phantasms without making it too obvious. I think you're as good and likely a candidate as anyone else. I want to hear you state a defence, or at least an opinion not hid in "I just want my husband's position to rise". Why do you believe the silent ones to be free of guilt? Why do you embrace the silent masses? What way would be chosen to find the guilty in your system of choice?

I am not completely convinced of your guilt, but I think the likelihood of it to be of a high caliber. Account for yourself.

--------------------
"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
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Formerly JFH

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
However, look at the time and place of her vote. If she was SCUM, she could easily have gotten away with lynching either Archibold St George or prof Heisen Berg, both of whom she in that case would have reason to believe carried special roles.

AIUI the only person Smudgetta could lynch was Heisen Berg. Could someone correct me if I'm wrong? I don't think there was any way to lynch Archibald when she voted.

Mrs Layman isn't acting any more suspiciously for her than Smudgetta as far as I can tell, but I think your judgement on these things is more reliable than mine.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Banner Lady
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Mrs. Layman looked out of the upstairs window in alarm. The gardener was standing downstairs, outside in the snow, and violently hurling abuse and slush at her house. She wondered why? She had mildly pointed out some time ago, that the two remaining denizens of St.Damians who had confessed to most enjoying dirt, were Professor Eliabach and the gardener.

Professor Eliabach had barely blinked at the truth of this; but the gardener was working himself into a fury over it. She found this very interesting. As though he was desperately trying to orchestrate a distraction.

Could the gardener and the cook be in league together, she pondered, with him wanting to protect Smudgetta by pointing the finger at an innocent onlooker?

For innocent, Mrs. Layman most certainly is. I will leave it up to the others, JFH, to determine which of us is most acting like SCUM.

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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.

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la vie en rouge
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[Apologies if I'm being a bit quiet at the mo - I really shouldn't try playing mafia AND writing a NaNo AND playing in two orchestras all at the same time [Eek!] ]

I still think Dai is more likely innocent than not. I just can't see why a murderer would tell us how to help the detective. It doesn't make sense. Miss Chelley agreed with this and I think she might well be innocent as well for that reason.

I agree with Eliabach about Heisen Berg and Dyllis. The reason to suspect Dyllis depends on whether Heisen is innocent or not, so it makes more sense to go for Heisen first.

It makes sense that the detective would check out Eliabach first, because he's such a forceful personality that it's always a good thing to know who's side he's on.

Mumblebore is odd but probably innocent ISTM.

Mrs. Layman? Well, the thing about her is that she's always just about impossible to read. In just about all circumstances she acts pretty much the same way, so there's really no way of being sure about her unless she does something very obviously incriminating. Actually, I think Jeremiah himself is potentially as suspicious as Mrs. Layman, by which I mean he's one of the people I regard as pretty much a completely unknown quantity. I don't have any particular reason to think him guilty, but he's not giving me any good reason to think he's innocent either. Same goes to a lesser extent for Lucy. I just don't know.

Since this multiple choice malarkey means I can keep my options open, I think I'm making the nomination just in case, to flag up that I think he's potentially suspicious.

Jeremiah Ferrer O'Hoch.

With the detective gone, we need to lynch someone this time, I think.

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An die Freude
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
However, look at the time and place of her vote. If she was SCUM, she could easily have gotten away with lynching either Archibold St George or prof Heisen Berg, both of whom she in that case would have reason to believe carried special roles.

AIUI the only person Smudgetta could lynch was Heisen Berg. Could someone correct me if I'm wrong? I don't think there was any way to lynch Archibald when she voted.

Mrs Layman isn't acting any more suspiciously for her than Smudgetta as far as I can tell, but I think your judgement on these things is more reliable than mine.

I was wrong. I have a brain of grassroot level and menial manual tasks. That does make Smudgetta's vote more bizarre. I kept Archibold's words,
quote:
Originally posted by AristonAstuanax:
Now wait just a minute here! Again, put away that dreadful rope!

in mind, spoken before your vote change was overruled. This also casts Prof Heisen Berg in new light, or at least the relation between the two. Still, what I have wanted to point to is that I know a little bit of Smudgetta's family and ancestors, though admittedly not all, and she seems to be acting just like the family, not like the familia. I believe that she is clever, about as bent towards no lynching as Eliabach with his ancestry is bent towards death, and that she'd be quiet when she's innocent.

I will admit that I have not encountered her more disreputable ancestors, and that is a problem. My perception of her could easily be called unfalsifiable, as she has a particularly easy way of hiding guilt - just play it the regular way. I have no reason for defending her other than that I would like to balance the accounts a little bit. I could very easily be wrong and then I'd be in deep trouble. Out of ten of us here, though, only two are guilty, and there are others that in my opinion differs more from my expectations of them.

Mrs Layman is difficult to pin down, so I thought I'd subject her to the old lithmus of nomination. I honestly do not know what to expect from her bloodline, and what I have seen so far I have a hard time judging. It is possible we shouldn't send her to the executioner just yet. When nominating her I had some bits of the following words in my head:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
You've been talking about the need to lynch people, but you haven't actually put yourself on the line by making a spontaneous nomination of your own. Trying to get a lynching by piggybacking on other people's nominations seems to me classic SCUM behaviour. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean every one who does it is SCUM.

I don't agree however that the talk has to be of lynchings to point to the shadows. Rather, talking much without saying anything is shadow-behaviour in my experience. I have tried so far to widen the talks, because since last morning it seemed to be a certain group of people, referred to by Mrs Layman as the professors, that talked about each other and suspected each other. Mrs Layman added suspicions toward the group of people that talked about action, and that added to my frustration towards her, since she didn't nominate or put forth any arguments to this. Now, you may know her ancestors and what she ought to be like, but to me she's completely off the charts.

At the time of her first vote, however, she put in the decisive vote for no lynching. These are hard facts and unsurpassable. I could argue that it's a cover-up and I could argue that (which does not seem that unlikely to me but that is hard to argue for) it was a rescue of a companion. Among those that voted for a lynching in the first vote, however, only prof Eliabach and prof Heisen Berg remain, and Eliabach seems to be cleared by Archibold. There has to be a mole in the garden of "no lynching". I have pointed before to the silent ladies, and it worries me that Felis Rufa is a part of them. At present, however, I'm mostly suspicious of the vague talks and name-mentionings (notably far too many names) by Mrs Layman. It could just be that I can't seem to pin her down, but it seems to me that her argumentless, directionless yet nameful talks would be the perfect cover in which a rodent would hide. And rodents need to be rooted out. This is an attempt to clear out the bushes.

quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
Mrs. Layman looked out of the upstairs window in alarm. The gardener was standing downstairs, outside in the snow, and violently hurling abuse and slush at her house. She wondered why? She had mildly pointed out some time ago, that the two remaining denizens of St.Damians who had confessed to most enjoying dirt, were Professor Eliabach and the gardener.

Professor Eliabach had barely blinked at the truth of this; but the gardener was working himself into a fury over it. She found this very interesting. As though he was desperately trying to orchestrate a distraction.

Could the gardener and the cook be in league together, she pondered, with him wanting to protect Smudgetta by pointing the finger at an innocent onlooker?

For innocent, Mrs. Layman most certainly is. I will leave it up to the others, JFH, to determine which of us is most acting like SCUM.

In the past day or so, you have expressed suspicions of about half the characters around this house. Do you really want to raise the "I've pointed you out!" argument? Yes, you did, and I was curious at how you got to that point. No reason to it was given, and then you moved on to other 'main vague suspects'. You're a promiscuous suspecter, Mrs Layman.

If I had tried, guiltily, to defend Smudgetta, it would indeed be a risky game to do it as a first move by placing her lowest on my list of suspects yesterday. It would have tied me to her irrevocably, which I wouldn't want to as guilty. If she's guilty I'm in trouble, because I've come to seem like her greatest defender. I'm not. I just think there ought to be a better candidate than Sherlock and Watson of yesterday (Dai and Heisen) next to her, and more thinking about what we're expecting of her. People are different in style, and I just think Smudgetta hides less than others, looking at what I thought of her. I'm worried about you, Lucy, Felis, Chelley and Smudgetta. The thing is that with Smudgetta I know what to expect, and she's hitting at that. The rest of you need to, in my opinion, account for yourselves. I started with you because you seem to attempt to have an influence on this game, and I asked you to explain what your thoughts or intuitions on the game are, more specifically. I got a counter-accusation back. Thank you very much.

--------------------
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Formerly JFH

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An die Freude
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[Post above cross-posted with La vie en rouge]

quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:

Mrs. Layman? Well, the thing about her is that she's always just about impossible to read. In just about all circumstances she acts pretty much the same way, so there's really no way of being sure about her unless she does something very obviously incriminating. Actually, I think Jeremiah himself is potentially as suspicious as Mrs. Layman, by which I mean he's one of the people I regard as pretty much a completely unknown quantity. I don't have any particular reason to think him guilty, but he's not giving me any good reason to think he's innocent either. Same goes to a lesser extent for Lucy. I just don't know.

Since this multiple choice malarkey means I can keep my options open, I think I'm making the nomination just in case, to flag up that I think he's potentially suspicious.

Jeremiah Ferrer O'Hoch.

With the detective gone, we need to lynch someone this time, I think.

I believe I have attempted to reveal my reasonings every time I have posted, and so too in votings. If I am to contribute, allow me to contribute a list of known/unknown quantities:

Innocents:

Eliabach - Most likely innocent due to Morse.
Mumblebore - Considered innocent due to craziness.
Dafyd - Considered innocent by some due to being helpful.

Devious:

Heisen Berg for claiming some sort of role of importance.
Dyllis for supporting said claim and forcing TESS.

Unknowns:

Felis Rufa - Relatively silent and proven good at hiding but useful if innocent.
Jeremiah Ferrer-O'Hocher - For not proving his innocence.
Lucy, Chelley, Banner Lady - For not contributing enough to be known.

I would like to state that I have posted long descriptions of why my votes have fared in one direction or the other. Others haven't. I have provided attempts at arguments. Others have claimed not to like arguments. I was the one who started pointing to the direction in which we're currently digging, the silent ones which most put below TESS before me. Others have merely supported the already high-listed characters ("The professors").

I was generally included in the group consisting of Lucy, Miss Chelley, Dyllis and Mrs Layman in the previous voting, but it was not by my own doing. I have stated my opinions clear and true, and learnt from a good master to remain suspicious of everyone. If this means I cannot clear anyone and add to the innocentification, then so be it. I know my reasonings have proven right in previous ends.

--------------------
"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH

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la vie en rouge
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quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
Out of ten of us here, though, only two are guilty

You know this how? It's a reasonable assumption to make, but we haven't actually been told, have we?

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An die Freude
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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
Out of ten of us here, though, only two are guilty

You know this how? It's a reasonable assumption to make, but we haven't actually been told, have we?
I asked previously. No one objected, and I've assumed ever since that this is the number of SCUM. In a game with one less participants, Eliab himself stated that "three's too many". I have seen no reason for this not to be the case. Let's look at this:
If there were three we'd have three days of gameplay if we lynched every time, and in a ranking based voting system the SCUM would have a very great power of controlling the votes.

No, I'm not going to make sure to add "isn't there?" and "aren't they?" all the time I write about the SCUM. I write about them way too often to do that. Plenty of people have assumed a single SCUM relation, and not several. I'm writing based on thoughts shaped from the plenty of arguments stating that Dyllis and Heisen are SCUM together, or me and Dyllis, or even Heisen and Dai (which would sure seem unlikely). I don't think there are more than two SCUM. I don't see why I should act as if I doubt that. Do you know that we have reason to?

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Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH

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Banner Lady
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quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
. You're a promiscuous suspecter, Mrs Layman.

I asked you to explain what your thoughts or intuitions on the game are, more specifically. I got a counter-accusation back. Thank you very much.

Mrs.Layman was truly flabbergasted by this nonsense. She smoothed down her woollen skirt, adjusted the pearls over her twin-set, and rapped sharply on the window. How dare ANYONE call her promiscuous?!

"You, sir, are making absolutely no sense at all. First you nominate me because I am being too silent for your liking, and then you inform the world that I am suspecting everyone willy-nilly. Make up your mind.

How can I not have suspicions, when there have now been several murders here at St.Damians, and the SCUM are all still on the loose? IF I was absolutely certain about you being a murderer, I would have nominated you.

You, sir, are the one perpetrating filth about me for no good reason at all. When I HAVE a strong inkling about the felons involved, I will most certainly communicate this. But I will never blather on nonsensically as you do, you may be certain."

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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.

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Sylvander
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I agree with my esteemed colleague Prof. Eliabach that Banner Lady does not behave much differently from Dyllis Smudgeletta. The argument is in both cases based on psychological speculation rather than voting behaviour (with no lynchings we have little to go on except Dyllis' effective TESS vote on day 2). This sort of vague speculation is easier with someone you know a bit better - and Banner Lady is a blank to me while the cook #2 is not. Very good at hiding her guilt, that much I remember about BL.

Why I still think lynching the cook Smudgella might be not a bad idea is

a) if she is guilty this will point strongly in the direction of Prof. Heisen Burg (but this works the other way round as well, so I would not mind taking him out first).

b) I do not agree that she acts like all her ancestors, criminals or not. While usually on the quiet side, when innocent they tried to contribute a bit of reflection now and then. But they all were gentle souls, it runs in the family, and when guilty they had this haunted look and exuded a fragrance of fright that makes them post entirely in role character and not much else. They are not bold criminals lusting for murder. They acted like she does now.

As it happens I do not trust that weird cat, either. She goes out in the snow, disappears round the corner, never catches any mice and still seems quite substantial. Who is feeding it? She has some secret, possibly nibbling on corpses, is she? Maybe I'll suggest killing her the morrow.

Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
Devious:

Heisen Berg for claiming some sort of role of importance.

He didn't exactly do that. He said "kill me and you'll regret it". That could be seen as a role claim, but it isn't one explicitly.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Smudgie

Ship's Barnacle
# 2716

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IN mental turmoil, Dyllis Smudgetta struggles to remember whether she has already salted the soup or not. She normally wrote herself a little note to remind her not to salt it a second time, but for some strange reason her favoured pen seemed reluctant to emit more than a few random blotches of ink, no matter how much she scribbled at the paper or breathed warm air on the nib. Well, if the soup was bland, it would more than compensate for the rather spicy atmosphere here in the college. An atmosphere which sent a chill down her spine and made her fearful for her very life.

Apparently people suspected her of ill deeds... as if she had killed the detective instead of saving him from the lynching mob. [Roll Eyes] And that Mumbledore fellow seemed to have convinced himself of her guilt, either that or to have targeted her in order to deflect attention from his own misdeeds. That was the last cup of hot tea she would make for him... at least not without spitting in the milk jug first anyway [Biased] She was, it is true, a woman who held a grudge, but that is a far cry from murderous intent.

Without a writing implement she was unable to share her suspicions clearly by nominating or voting. However, with her fingers now clean of honey and her head far clearer from the ensuing sleep, she is heard to mutter under her breath... "Perhaps Eliabach is right, after all".

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Miss you, Erin.

Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sylvander
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# 12857

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quote:
Originally posted by Smudgie:
That was the last cup of hot tea she would make for him... at least not without spitting in the milk jug first anyway [Biased]

[Projectile] Lynch her! Lynch her, I say! That woman clearly is a maniac capable of anything.

[ 08. November 2011, 15:09: Message edited by: Sylvander ]

Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Eliab
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# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by Smudgie:
Without a writing implement she was unable to share her suspicions clearly by nominating or voting.

You can nominate, if you've been pranked, just not vote.

Not that I wish to dissuade you from listening to me, of course.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sylvander
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# 12857

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Would you mind dissuading her from poisoning, mee,THAT'S what I really want to know?
Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged



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