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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: St Paul's To Close
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
There was an interview on the BBC R4 Today programme this morning with a representative of the Cathedral, not Giles Fraser (who I always thought was a good choice for Vicar of the church where the Putney debates were held). The health and safety issues were discussed in a meeting with the police and the Fire Service, and it was made clear that the Cathedral was required by law to obey their advice to close.
Has this advice been conveyed to the leaders of the demonstration? Because their understanding (quoted earlier) is that these authorities had not been in touch with the Cathedral, and that there were no serious health and safety worries. If that has now changed, and the demonstrators are aware of it, then it changes the direction of this debate.
I've expressed some anger at capitalist greed so far in this thread, and disappointment at the behaviour of the church, but have to admit that the Cathedral is not (and does not deserve to be) the main target of this protest. Would not a much lower-key encampment (like that of the late Brian Haw) be just as effective from now on, and maintain good relations with the cathedral authorities?
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
...and trumpeted home ownership as a desirable aim.
Maybe because it is a desirable aim?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
...and trumpeted home ownership as a desirable aim.
Maybe because it is a desirable aim?
Not necessarily.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
...and trumpeted home ownership as a desirable aim.
Maybe because it is a desirable aim?
Not necessarily.
I guess I value independence more than you.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
This appeared in the comments of Angloid's link.
quote:
St Pauls Trustees:
Chairman
Sir John Stuttard PWC partner, Former Lord Mayor of London.
Trustees
The Right Reverend Graeme Knowles, Dean of St Paul’s
Dame Helen Alexander DBE Deputy chair of the CBI, director of Centrica plc
Lord Blair of Boughton Former Metropolitan Police Commissioner
Roger Gifford Investment banker, big in City of London
John Harvey – Not clearly identified
Joyce Hytner OBE – Theatre director
Gavin Ralston Global Head of Product and leading international asset manager at Schroder Investment Management
Carol Sergeant CBE – Chief Risk Director at Lloyds TSB, formerly Managing Director for Regulatory Process and Risk at the FSA
John Spence OBE – Former Managing Director, Business Banking, LloydsTSB
Thats not the church, that sounds rather like our target no?
I missed this earlier - it's inaccurate nonsense. This list is the Foundation - who are a bunch of arm's length fundraisers for the Cathedral. The Cathedral is run by the Dean & Chapter.
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
I kind of enjoyed Giles Fraser's intervention at the weekend. He used to be a member of the SWP
I used to be a member of the Young Conservatives. People change.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Thank you Pete.
Some people will go to any length to misquote or misrepresent things.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Which is exactly what (in 'normal' times) the money-changers do who sit at the doors of St Paul's demanding money to enter. Not preventing exactly: they point out a tiny chapel where one may pray, or (no doubt if you don't look too much like a tourist) you can enter at times of advertised services. But certainly obstructing the freedom of Christians and others to wander at will and be uplifted to God in God's house. Except of course it's run by bankers, so is more like a den of thieves.
I had always understood that the money St. Paul's collects is used for the maintenance of the building and funding worship.
Are you saying they make a profit, and that this profit ends up in the hands of exploiters?
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Because you've been taught to. On continental Europe, home-ownership is much less widespread (granted France has a housing crisis of its own, but that's a separate issue).
Home ownership here is a relatively recent phenomenon. When my parents were growing up, many people rented. It didn't become a buyer's market until after the war. Now it's turning back into a renter's market, but there are some basic differences between renting here and in continental Europe.
My understanding (based on Germany, anyhow) is that you rent per square metre and it doesn't matter how many people you move into your flat. Also, you can paint it and put up pictures if you want. In England, you rent by the number of bedrooms and the tenancy is assigned to the named person or persons who sign the contract and no others. Anyone trying to move their family and pets into their flat and redecorating it here would probably get pretty short shrift and be in breach of their contract. Some landlords even have an explicit clause about how many nights per month you may have a guest to stay over.
This is why home ownership, at least in the UK, is seen as more desirable. It gets you out of what can often amount to a semi-institutionalized life and gives you independence. I don't know what it's like in continental Europe other than in Germany but I'm betting it's not as restrictive as it is here.
[ 22. October 2011, 12:39: Message edited by: Ariel ]
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by dv:
Hilarious post by Cranmer:
http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2011/10/canon-giles-fraser-loses-st-pauls-20k.html
Right. In previous times someone who referred to themselves in the third person would have been confined to furious correspondance in green ink once they started shouting on street corners.
"Cranmer"'s pomposity knows no bounds. His Twitter name is His Grace. How arrogant of a right wing blogger to arrogate to himself the name of our greatest Archbishop! Definitely green ink brigade.
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
Sorry for double post. Latest statement from Giles Fraser is here.
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Except of course it's run by bankers, so is more like a den of thieves.
I had always understood that the money St. Paul's collects is used for the maintenance of the building and funding worship.
Are you saying they make a profit, and that this profit ends up in the hands of exploiters?
Moo
In the light of Pete173's clarification, I withdraw my statement that the cathedral is 'run' by bankers. I know that all cathedrals are faced with the dilemma of whether or not to impose entrance fees. But many have resisted. It just seems too easy for somewhere like St Paul's, knowing that there is an endless stream of inquisitive (and comparatively wealthy) tourists, to turn the place into a very expensive museum. Which rather destroys the possibility that people will discover God there and especially the message of the Gospel to the poor.
I wonder what proportion of their profits those wealthy financiers who make up the 'arms-length funding committee' donate to the running of the cathedral?
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Meanwhile, while the cathedral is closed, where are the daily offices and eucharist taking place? Or have they been abandoned?
If I were Canon Fraser, I would set up an altar in the middle of the camp and invite the demonstrators to participate. What better sign?
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
They're still doing the offices etc. inside. And I think there's a wedding today. I would hope that they might think of leading prayers from the steps - one of my clergy was down there last night and led the protesters in the Lord's Prayer. But it must all
be the Dean & Chapter's call. You can't open a building for worship and tourism if you haven't got safe fire exits.
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
It's probably a requirement of the Cathedral's public liability insurance that there is no obstruction to any fire exit. If they didn't close and there was any claim, not necessarily to do with fire exits or the protesters, the insurance may be invalidated.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
No Cathedral makes a charge to attend a service.
But I can't see why tourists who are there mainly for the History should not be asked for a donation (eg entry fee).
Most churches have a job to keep going and keep replacing the stolen lead of the roof etc.
I like the suggestion by Angloid of Rev Giles setting up a communion table outside and having an Al Fresoc Mass for the demonstators.
He could of course have a Baptism service for them which should ensure he sees none of them again.
Pax et Bonum
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
They could show their support by hosting night long change ringing marathons. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Zach
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
The closing of St Pauls shows that London now needs to close these protests and clear the center of London of protestors . This is an attack on one of the icons of London. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
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coniunx
Shipmate
# 15313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
I like the suggestion by Angloid of Rev Giles setting up a communion table outside and having an Al Fresoc Mass for the demonstators.
If they're anything like their colleagues in Rome, they'd be less likely to attend Mass than to smash the place up.
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Coniunx
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
The closing of St Pauls shows that London now needs to close these protests and clear the center of London of protestors .
How? and by what authority?
[ 22. October 2011, 21:36: Message edited by: justlooking ]
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
The closing of St Pauls shows that London now needs to close these protests and clear the center of London of protestors . This is an attack on one of the icons of London.
This is a functioning church is it? Not a museum? If it's a museum¸clear away. If a functioning church, I suppose you can clear it on behalf of the money lenders.
I do have the sense that lots of old European churches have worship only as secondary function to their museum function, with tourism, concerts, preservation of artefacts and stained glass and graves, and general upkeep of very old architecture being the main focuses.
Nice to look at, if expensive, and in my experience in such temples, you are allowed to worship, but don't you dare try to linger or look around without paying a very large amount of money.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I wonder if, having paid your entrance fee as a tourist, and then being brought to your knees in wonder and prayer, you are entitled to claim your money back.
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Well I don't know No Prophet, if this is a general European thing
You can enter Notre Dame free of charge - apart from the Tower - if you can take it. Stephansdom in Vienna is free ( although I think if you join a tour then you do pay)
There are quite a few cathedrals in England where you don't - eg Hereford
My beef with them is partly what they charge - Ł14.50 is quite a bit of dosh and London is such an expensive city.If you see the Abbey as well that's another Ł14.50 so you're talking of the best part of Ł30 on top of accommodation costs etc.
The other thing is - is it a charge or a donation? If it's a donation it should be voluntary and if push comes to shove you should be able to get into the cathedral gratis. If it's a charge then you should be able to get a VAT receipt I'd have thought
I am probably being unduly cynical in this respect. However I would say if you're looking for a quiet place to pray or even just sit still you could do a lot worse than go to one of the city churches which are open - my favourite is St.Pancras - where I'm more than willing to leave a donation and go there on Sunday, where - shock,horror!! - people actually talk to you!
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I wonder if, having paid your entrance fee as a tourist, and then being brought to your knees in wonder and prayer, you are entitled to claim your money back.
OMG!!!
I thought I was being cynical......... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The best thing about St. Paul's cathedral is the free loos. Not even many of the cafes in the city have loos. But as soon as there is a special event on in or around the cathedral, security is employed and the loos are out of bounds. As is the cafe and the adjacent gift shop.
I have enjoyed looking around St. Paul's Cathedral (and Westminster Abbey) once or twice in my life - and been willing to pay the entrance fee. But I far prefer the services, which is a living display of the faith. By allowing tourists to come in for free if they attend a service, who knows what insight into the faith they might 'catch' and take away with them. Sometimes we limit God, thinking he can't work like that.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
John Prescott was middle class although he often played the 'working-class-lad' ploy.
What does that mean? He worked as a seaman. His father worked on the railway. His father was a miner. If there is such a thing as the industrial working class they were it.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I've never paid an entrance fee to get into a cathedral in England. But then I've never been inside St Paul's (or Westminster Abbey)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Traveller
Shipmate
# 1943
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Posted
Most cathedrals (actually, all cathedrals in my experience) provide a leaflet to visitors explaining that their main function is the daily round of worship, but this takes place in an interesting historical building that costs a huge sum each year to maintain, for which the Dean and Chapter get no help from the state (Lottery funding! Yes, I know, there is some Lottery Funding for special repairs).
Before the days of charges for visitors, the London cathedrals used to get hordes of organised tour parties being charged significant sums by tour companies, who paid not one brass farthing to support the venues that were the source of their income. This was a major factor in their decisions to charge admission for visitors not attending a service.
I would rather the St Paul's staff preached the word to the protestors, not just assume that they are the dispossessed who, frankly, are taking advantage of the original goodwill.
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I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live:
I will praise my God while I have my being.
Psalm 104 v.33
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
IIRC, someone recently suggested on these boards (a propos Westminster Abbey, but the same principle applies) that such places as St. Paul's and the Abbey should no longer be used for public worship (except perhaps on Grand State Occasions - which would be by invitation only, anyway), and given over wholly to the tourists. The daily round of Christian worship could then be carried on in local churches - which, in the City of London at least, might boost their congregations......
I'll get me coat......
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Cathedrals have always had that touristy element, even in the middle ages. It was a place where the people of the community could exress their gratitude for what God has done for them, and the whole intent was for people to come and see the power of God in the affairs of humankind. It's difficult to hear sermons in just places, but that's not what cathedrals are about- it's about the gawking.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Westminster Abbey costs Ł16 to get in these days. I haven't been there since I was a child; the last time I went some years ago I was faced not only with the entrance fee but also, if you wanted to see some of the side chapels there was an additional extra charge for those too which meant that one could quite easily end up spending more than expected, so I went somewhere else instead.
I think they used to let you in free of charge late on a Wednesday afternoon, though I never did. I don't know if they still do this. Other than that, the only time it's free is for services.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Perhaps this is the time to point out that there are two other excellent cathedrals in London within walking distance of St Paul's and the Abbey. Southwark Cathedral is historic, an attractive building (if not by an architect of genius like Wren), with a prayerful atmosphere and welcoming personnel. And they don't charge to go in. Similarly Westminster Cathedral is an awe-inspiring building which immediately impresses a visitor with the sense of being in the presence of God, and it feels as if the whole building is praying even when no service is in progress (and there often is). And again it is free to enter.
Certainly neither of them strike one as temples of mammon in the way that St Paul's does.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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doubtingthomas
Shipmate
# 14498
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Because you've been taught to. On continental Europe, home-ownership is much less widespread (granted France has a housing crisis of its own, but that's a separate issue).
On the continent (or at least the parts I'm familiar with), tenants are not treated like dirt for extortionate rents.
I never felt the desire to own a property until I was subjected to tenancy practices in England.
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
Sorry this is a bit late in the thread but:
quote:
Hilarious post by Cranmer:
http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2011/10/canon-giles-fraser-loses-st-pauls-20k.html
Hilarious it might be, but the basic premise appears to be wrong. Giles Fraser is the canon-chancellor, but that does not mean that "Judas-like" he is in charge of the purse. He is in charge of teaching office of the catheral, and director of the St Paul's Institute: Dean & Chapter.
I would disagree with Giles Fraser in a number of areas. But I like the way he speaks prophetically to the City. No kowtowing to money in him.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moth:
I'd be worried that it might all turn nasty and then innocent bystanders would get kettled by the police.
(Gets on high horse) Blame a disproportionate Police reaction. Kettling should be made illegal - it probably is already anyway. (Dis - mount!)
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
They're still doing the offices etc. inside. And I think there's a wedding today. I would hope that they might think of leading prayers from the steps - one of my clergy was down there last night and led the protesters in the Lord's Prayer. But it must all
be the Dean & Chapter's call. You can't open a building for worship and tourism if you haven't got safe fire exits.
I thought the protesters and the cathedral staff had talked to the fire brigade - who were satisfied that there wasn't a fire hazard ?
[ 23. October 2011, 16:22: Message edited by: Think˛ ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Moth:
I'd be worried that it might all turn nasty and then innocent bystanders would get kettled by the police.
(Gets on high horse) Blame a disproportionate Police reaction. Kettling should be made illegal - it probably is already anyway. (Dis - mount!)
I would ban demostrations full stop. You can organise a big demonstration on line such as writing to your MP. When they get flooded with e-mails they take some notice. (eg 38 Degrees) Demos don't affect a thing and are for people who think they are important and want to get on TV.
No-one demoed over the Forestry Commission sell-off but it was soon stopped by 'the people'.
Pax et Bonum
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
/tangential rant alert/
I went on demonstrations in the mid-1980s to protest against the abolition of the Greater London Council. I didn't feel I myself was particularly important, although the cause was. As for TV, one march with 30,000+ people participating, got about 30 seconds on the BBC News - and that was mainly to tell Middle England that (shock! horror!) we'd caused a traffic hold-up in the City of London.....
.....and demonstrations have also served to prove to me that the police are often the tools of a fascist state.
/end of rant/
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
/tangential rant alert/
.....and demonstrations have also served to prove to me that the police are often the tools of a fascist state.
/end of rant/
Ian J.
Agreed!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I do wish people wouldn't do that !
Facist is not just a synonym for repressive. To the best of my knowledge and belief the UK is not a Facist state. Nor is it Communist, socialist, feudal, totalitarian, autocratic, Stalinist, Maoist or Utilitarian.
There is a good argument to be made that it is overly repressive - it is some way off becoming a police state - and you could make a fair argument it is or is in danger of becoming an oligarchy rather than a true democracy.
What it is not; is a state that believes it can be entirely self-sufficient, believes its dominant ethnicity to be superior to all others, and attempting expansionist military empire building to create more space for its population.
Throwing the term around just makes it easier, for those wishing to, to hide the fact that the government is curtailing the rights of the people and kowtowing to commercial interests. It makes what would otherwise be meaningful critiques of this slide into repression sound hysterical.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Well if you can't get into St Paul's at the mo, you'd do no worse than to pop along to St James' Piccadilly to see how Canon Lucy Winkett is getting along these days. The building is much plainer, and there's not so much pansying about. But you don't have to pay to get in and they do some lovely free lunchtime concerts.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
I was working in the City this morning, so I strolled round to St Paul's just before 11am. As expected, the doors were closed, when normally it would be thronging with Sunday worshippers. This unprecedented state of affairs is the first time since the cathedral received severe bomb damage in WW2. I don't want to discuss the rights or wrongs of a protest against fat cat bankers and greedy capitalists, but only the forced closure of one of the world's iconic buildings.
St Paul's has been a Christian worshipping site since at leat the 7th century. It is Wren's masterpiece, and very much part of London's heritage. Worshippers and tourists alike flock there from all over the world. Now they can't. Even the stench which comes from this large encampment would be enough to close the cathedral on health and safety grounds. Conditions are hardly hygenic. Not to mention the reason given, of fire doors. Whatever beef these people have with the world, it isn't with St Paul's Cathedral. They have been asked to leave, so the cathedral can get on with its normal function. So far, they are refusing to do so. Like all pressure groups, they are only interested in their own point of view, and are quite selfish and insensitive to the views of those who value what the cathedral gives to London and the many people who come here.
If they can't be persuaded to see the sense of this, the cathedral authorities should go to court and obtain an injunction requiring these people to vacate the site and let others get on with their lives. Let them all go to Finsbury Park if they want. But get them away from a place where they are disrupting the lives of others who have no involvement in their conflict.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I still haven't heard a plausible explanation of why they *had* to close. What were the protesters doing - rugby tackling the tourists ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think˛:
I still haven't heard a plausible explanation of why they *had* to close. What were the protesters doing - rugby tackling the tourists ?
Hehe!!
Perhaps some of them were Welsh rugby fans having a pop at French tourists....... ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishop's Finger and agreed with by Exclamation Mark
and demonstrations have also served to prove to me that the police are often the tools of a fascist state.
This sort of language really annoys me.
Like you, I've many grumbles with the government of my own country. But unlike you two, I lived for some years in a totalitarian state - and it wasn't even a fascist one, just authoritarian. You don't know you're born.
In many other countries, by now, all the happy campers + quite a lot of innocent passers by, would be locked up, have severe bruising, bullet wounds or be dead.
In many other countries, demos don't happen because people know that.
I think most demos are a posturing nuisance and few get anywhere. I don't see why one person should think their opinion is more important than other peoples' convenience. But that's a different question from what governments are or are not fascist.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think:
I still haven't heard a plausible explanation of why they *had* to close. What were the protesters doing - rugby tackling the tourists ?
The camp is now so large that it effectively blocks the side exits and constitutes a fire hazard. Also, and I was there today, the whole area is starting to smell rank. No one has the right to exercise their freedom when it encroaches on the freedom of others. With freedom comes reponsibility, and this has now become irresponsible and should be moved on.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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