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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: St Paul's To Close
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
I'm confused; the Guardian is reporting that the Cathedral has (rather belatedly) worked out that they can open after having moved some of the tents and ensuring free passaged, and London Fire Service are saying they didn't say there was a fire risk. At the same time, the BBC is leading with Fraser's imminent resignation. I find this odd because it looks to me that Fraser's view of the world has held sway. Why is he going?
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Geneviève:
Justlooking--the articles I'm seeing (primarily on "Thinking Anglicans") say that +Chartres has not directly come out in favor of legal action. What he's saying behind the scenes may be different.
Actually, from the Telegraph report :
quote:
As St Paul’s remained closed for the sixth consecutive day, the cathedral’s clergy were locked in talks on how to deal with the protesters. Although the Bishop of London, the Rt Rev Richard Chartres, backed those who want to join the local authority in seeking an injunction, others are strongly against taking action.
opinion is divided among the cathedral's clergy. I'd read it as +Chartres' support for the local authority but it's support for those clergy who want legal action.
Anyone know if the cleric in the video clip is one of the cathedral clergy?
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
At the same time, the BBC is leading with Fraser's imminent resignation.
If true - and it is not confirmed - I suspect his colleagues are leaning on him. And I suspect that someone else is leaning on them, even if only in an ever-so-polite old-boy sort of way.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
At the same time, the BBC is leading with Fraser's imminent resignation. I find this odd because it looks to me that Fraser's view of the world has held sway. Why is he going?
He has now resigned. A short announcement on the BBC. No doubt there'll be more information soon.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
BBC report on Fraser resignation
a friend was there yesterday, before the announcements about changes enabling safe access, and felt that there were already open routes into and out of the cathedral, and that the H&S arguments were not convincing. He was interested in a number of what he described as Radical Christian Anarchists on the steps. (Or possibly Christian Anarchist Radicals or another permutation. I'm afraid my internal Python kicked in while he was describing them).
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Because of what Ken said.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Sorry, that was a reply to Dyfrig.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
BBC report on Fraser resignation
a friend was there yesterday, before the announcements about changes enabling safe access, and felt that there were already open routes into and out of the cathedral, and that the H&S arguments were not convincing. ............
One of the comments on the BBC report suggests a reason for the closure may have been fear that the protesters could move inside the cathedral and claim 'sanctuary' if there was action to move them.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
As of this morning, after Dr Fraser's resignation, I think the main health and safety concern has to be the noticeable smell of a rat, emanating from the direction of the Dean and Chapter.
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Stoker
Shipmate
# 11939
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Posted
Giles Fraser resigned....look at me, look at me, I care about social justice...........
If his leadership role within the church is of the same Theological and Doctrinal views expressed by his vacuous drivel on 'thought for the day' and 'inclusive church', the church universal is better without him in a leadership position.
Posts: 428 | Registered: Oct 2006
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crynwrcymraeg
Shipmate
# 13018
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Posted
Dr Fraser's resignation keeps the rumour of G-d alive for me. I could cry.
So much that St Paul's and the bishop have said and done is, to me, literally God-less
Jesus of the gospels and the Gospel is always standing with the poor, the marginalised and the hurting.
Standing up to the principalities and powers
the spiritual wickedness in high places
Giles has taken a costly personal step ~
it is also e gospel message / enactment
to me
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I ignored the admins and now I'm Erin's bitch.
Posts: 522 | From: Ty'n Coed | Registered: Sep 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stoker:
Giles Fraser resigned....look at me, look at me, I care about social justice...........
This was my initial reaction. But the step was so costly for him there must be more beneath the surface. He was probably already considering it for other reasons.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Does this mean he's now homeless?
Will he take up camping?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
At the same time, the BBC is leading with Fraser's imminent resignation.
If true - and it is not confirmed - I suspect his colleagues are leaning on him. And I suspect that someone else is leaning on them, even if only in an ever-so-polite old-boy sort of way.
If so, then I suspect that Giles will not keep quiet about it for long.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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crynwrcymraeg
Shipmate
# 13018
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Posted
o what hidden depths
of love
of resolution
of hope against hope
and doing right because
it's Good ...
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I ignored the admins and now I'm Erin's bitch.
Posts: 522 | From: Ty'n Coed | Registered: Sep 2007
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Stoker
Shipmate
# 11939
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Will he take up camping?
Well he does support the Christian LGBT movement......
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Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Posts: 428 | Registered: Oct 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
a friend was there yesterday, before the announcements about changes enabling safe access, and felt that there were already open routes into and out of the cathedral, and that the H&S arguments were not convincing.
All Health and Safety arguments are addressed in this aforementioned article: http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2011/10/health-safety-cathedral-camp
I've just read this, and to me things are getting smellier by the minute. This (from the linked article) set big alarm bells ringing in my head: quote:
I asked who compiled this list of [health & safety] issues. The vague response was "health and safety advisers". Who were these advisers? The Cathedral would not say. What are their qualifications and expertise? The Cathedral would not say. Are they external or internal? The Cathedral would not say.
...
What about the the Dean's express comment that "the legal requirements placed upon us by fire, health and safety issues". Surely the Cathedral can specify the "legal requirements"? But the Cathedral could not.
Now, I'm team leader of a hospital chaplaincy. One of my duties is to maintain a "risk register" of all identifiable risks - including health & safety - that exist in my department. Obviously, that includes risks pertaining to the use of the hospital chapel. The risks have to be assessed, and then quantified by reference to likelihood and seriousness.
The process by which this happens is auditable and transparent. My boss would be displeased to say the least if I included in the register vague, handwaving references to "health & safety issues" - the whole point of risk management is to be specific. Furthermore, if any third party wants to know how we manage risk, then they can find out.
Can it really be the case that the Dean and Chapter of St Paul's Cathedral are less clued-up about risk management than the chaplain of a provincial hospital?
Or is something else going on here?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
An irony that the first scalp of the middle-class anti-capitalists should be a mockney old public schoolboy former trot now an unlikely cleric.
Doubtless he will find a new career at the BBC and no doubt much better paid too.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Now, I'm team leader of a hospital chaplaincy. One of my duties is to maintain a "risk register" of all identifiable risks - including health & safety - that exist in my department. Obviously, that includes risks pertaining to the use of the hospital chapel. The risks have to be assessed, and then quantified by reference to likelihood and seriousness.
Just out of interest, if a completely new and unforeseen risk situation sprung up overnight, requiring instant action to avoid the risk of lawsuits, and you had to make a snap decision in the interests of protecting the hospital, would you be able (and willing) to justify your decision - in meticulous detail and with names and qualifications of every advisor you managed to consult - to a muck-raking journalist whose primary aim is to make you look bad by whichever means necessary?
Because I co-ordinate the risk register for my employer as well, and I know damn well that if something like that happened to us I wouldn't be either willing or able to do so.
Of course, it may be that St Pauls really does have a specific "large crowd of protesters camping outside the doors for weeks" entry on its risk register, in which case they certainly should be able to give chapter and verse on why they reacted the way they did. But I doubt it.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Now, I'm team leader of a hospital chaplaincy. One of my duties is to maintain a "risk register" of all identifiable risks - including health & safety - that exist in my department. Obviously, that includes risks pertaining to the use of the hospital chapel. The risks have to be assessed, and then quantified by reference to likelihood and seriousness.
Just out of interest, if a completely new and unforeseen risk situation sprung up overnight, requiring instant action to avoid the risk of lawsuits, and you had to make a snap decision in the interests of protecting the hospital, would you be able (and willing) to justify your decision - in meticulous detail and with names and qualifications of every advisor you managed to consult - to a muck-raking journalist whose primary aim is to make you look bad by whichever means necessary?
Because I co-ordinate the risk register for my employer as well, and I know damn well that if something like that happened to us I wouldn't be either willing or able to do so.
Of course, it may be that St Pauls really does have a specific "large crowd of protesters camping outside the doors for weeks" entry on its risk register, in which case they certainly should be able to give chapter and verse on why they reacted the way they did. But I doubt it.
If the Dean and Chapter had taken authoritative advice on the issues, then that advice should have been specific and, to some extent, quantifiable. Notice that the journalist contacted the Cathedral several days after their original press releases, by which time something relating to the risk management should have been got down in writing. Notice also that the camp had been present for several days before the cathedral was closed, so it's not exactly an "overnight" event.
In similar circumstances (whathever they might be), would I be expected to come up with a risk analysis and management strategy within a week? Yes. Would it include any risks relating to communicating specific, quantifiable information to the public? Hell yes!
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Doubtless he will find a new career at the BBC and no doubt much better paid too.
If you live by the sword....
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Really these endless assertions without any reference to back them up are getting very tiresome.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 27. October 2011, 12:15: Message edited by: Rosa Winkel ]
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Doubtless he will find a new career at the BBC and no doubt much better paid too.
If you live by the sword....
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Really these endless assertions without any reference to back them up are getting very tiresome.
Hardly an assertion more of a prediction.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stoker:
Giles Fraser resigned....look at me, look at me, I care about social justice...........
If his leadership role within the church is of the same Theological and Doctrinal views expressed by his vacuous drivel on 'thought for the day' and 'inclusive church', the church universal is better without him in a leadership position.
Whereas on the other hand, 'if' he does in fact have some good Christian competencies and abilities of which the Cathedral has some need, it is a pity for the sake of the ministry there he's gone, isn't it? I mean, that's actually what's important here, isn't it? That Christ's ministry is truthfully, faithfully and prophetcially represented in the actions and words of its ministers?
And do you think he cares so little for his family that he wishes to uproot them absolutely from their home and environment, for the sake of an ego trip? You know he's like that, do you?
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
I commented last week on the interview given by the spokesperson of the protestors who repeatedly refused to answer the question "what are your demands?".
11 days after the sit-in began she was asked the same question again on Radio 5 Live last night. She again didn't / couldn't answer. But she insisted that the Assembly (the protestors' decision-making body,) had worked hard to reach a consensus on major issues.
Asked by the interviewer to specify an issue on which progress had been achieved she answered, "We have decided, after long and anguished debate, to open a bank account with the Co-Op".
I lie not.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
But she insisted that the Assembly (the protestors' decision-making body,) had worked hard to reach a consensus on major issues.
Sounds rather like the Church?
In fact the Church could do to follow suit and move their banking to the co-op - at least they'd be banking ethically.
My bag and tent are packed and the dreadlocks are being cultivated as we speak. I've just heard the news that top bosses earned 46% higher salaries this year. They are taking the piss.
It's time to go camping.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Exactly like the Church.
Which is why it is a GOOD THING that the Church does not form the Govt.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Asked by the interviewer to specify an issue on which progress had been achieved she answered, "We have decided, after long and anguished debate, to open a bank account with the Co-Op".
I lie not.
Wow. 11 days of discussion and protest, and the only concrete proposal they have for how to actually improve things (as opposed to bitching on about how bad everything is) is "open an account at a different bank".
Well, I'm impressed. Clearly these protesters are true prophets for our times. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
How about this?.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
How about this?.
It's about time.
So basically, they want to make the City of London corporation fully democratic. Good-o. One presumes that that means that everyone who lives inside the boundaries of the City should have a vote on who leads it? Well yes, fair enough - but how many of the protesters does that actually include? How many people are currently being denied that vote?
The police force thing is odd - both because I hadn't realised there was a separate force for the square mile and because I'm not sure what merging it with the Met would actually achieve.
Business and corporate block votes - I presume this refers to City elections rather than Greater London ones? But yeah, fair enough.
Abolition of the Lord Mayor, Sherrifs and Aldermen? Why? To what end?
One thought - it seems that most of these demands are aimed at a perceived democratic deficit within the City of London. If such a thing truly exists and residents are being denied their say in the running of the City then it should indeed be dealt with, but I was under the impression that these protests were supposed to be about the economy...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
How about this?.
It's about time.
So basically, they want to make the City of London corporation fully democratic. Good-o. One presumes that that means that everyone who lives inside the boundaries of the City should have a vote on who leads it? Well yes, fair enough - but how many of the protesters does that actually include? How many people are currently being denied that vote?
The police force thing is odd - both because I hadn't realised there was a separate force for the square mile and because I'm not sure what merging it with the Met would actually achieve.
Business and corporate block votes - I presume this refers to City elections rather than Greater London ones? But yeah, fair enough.
Abolition of the Lord Mayor, Sherrifs and Aldermen? Why? To what end?
One thought - it seems that most of these demands are aimed at a perceived democratic deficit within the City of London. If such a thing truly exists and residents are being denied their say in the running of the City then it should indeed be dealt with, but I was under the impression that these protests were supposed to be about the economy...
I've known quite a few friends who lived in the City of London mostly in the Barbican and never heard them complaining about a lack of local democracy as the City Corporation carries out all the functions of local government with great efficiency and has also purchased and administers tracts of land in other boroughs to protect the environment and provide amenity land eg Hampstead Heath and Epping Forest.
The major difference is that candidates in Corporation elections do not stand on a party basis.
We need to make other councils more like the City of London Corporation and not the other way round.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
How about this?.
The police force thing is odd - both because I hadn't realised there was a separate force for the square mile and because I'm not sure what merging it with the Met would actually achieve.
They were really scraping the barrel when they came up with that one. Are they also calling for the abolition of the separate British Transport Police?
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Are they also calling for the abolition of the separate British Transport Police?
They probably would if a lot of international businesses had their headquarters in railway stations!
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Are they also calling for the abolition of the separate British Transport Police?
They probably would if a lot of international businesses had their headquarters in railway stations!
Well Broadgate (Liverpool Street) is packed with them.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
The major difference is that candidates in Corporation elections do not stand on a party basis.
You mean some of them are not Tories? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
The incoherence of some of the 'spokespeople' for the protesters interviewed on TV is reassuring to my mind. It suggests that they aren't prepared to play the establishment game of slick PR persuaders.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
We need to make other councils more like the City of London Corporation and not the other way round.
This would be the Corporation of which it has been said quote:
The corporation is a group of hangers-on, who create what is known as the best dining club in the City ... a rotten borough.
I think the protesters' demands sound about right. Abolish the old boys' network whose business it has become to asset-strip UK plc for their own monetary benefit, and place the City on the same footing as any other local authority.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I think the protesters' demands sound about right. Abolish the old boys' network whose business it has become to asset-strip UK plc for their own monetary benefit, and place the City on the same footing as any other local authority.
Absolutely. From your links it seems that the square mile has been suffering a democratic deficit for far too long, and I'm all for sorting that out. Companies having a vote in local elections is ridiculous.
Question is, why didn't the protesters just say that they were protesting against a democratic deficit that's preventing roughly 9,000 people from having a say in how their local authority is run, rather than giving the impression that they wanted changes to be made that would affect the whole country?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
We need to make other councils more like the City of London Corporation and not the other way round.
This would be the Corporation of which it has been said quote:
The corporation is a group of hangers-on, who create what is known as the best dining club in the City ... a rotten borough.
I think the protesters' demands sound about right. Abolish the old boys' network whose business it has become to asset-strip UK plc for their own monetary benefit, and place the City on the same footing as any other local authority.
All that is is moaning by a Labour MP. All I can say is that I would rather live under the City Corporation than so many of the London Boroughs that are Labour Party fiefdoms with total inefficiency in the provision of services. I can see little particularly democratic (or effective) in the party based system of local government in Britain (or national government for that matter).
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Question is, why didn't the protesters just say that they were protesting against a democratic deficit that's preventing roughly 9,000 people from having a say in how their local authority is run, rather than giving the impression that they wanted changes to be made that would affect the whole country?
Because there is no coherency to these protests, it's just a camping holiday for angry hippies. There was some at first with the original Wall Street ones, but the copycat protests around the world have no coherent organisation and are mainly the work of professional agitators who are already well known to local police. Everybody with some random cause to push is getting involved and trying to hijack it for their pet purpose.
In Melbourne it was even noted that a large number of the protesters were going to work during the day, going to the protest for a few hours once done and then catching the last train of the night home to sleep in their own beds. From that it would seem that the real thing they are protesting is the poor quality of TV programming in the evening!
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
It is ironic that they want to dissolve the City of London Police and presumably integrate them into the Met. If the Met had had jurisdiction in the City there is nothing more they would have liked to do than give the protesters a good kettle followed by a bit of the old Blair Peach treatment.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
How about this?.
Thanks for this - very interesting. I'd no idea about how the special status worked out in practice. I suppose St Paul's is the Corporation's parish church. It has a list of corporate supporters whose members enjoy special privileges and events such as fine dining in the crypt.
The Green Party wants to abolish the special status and bring it into line with democratic government:
quote:
"The City of London Corporation is a medieval institution. It plays a key role in protecting offshore business that drains billions out of developing countries each year. What we have is a divided capital, and we need to abolish that division, and make the City of London more open and democratic."
I'm glad the article you linked to mentioned St Paul's Cross because if it turns into a battle based on historic rights the commoners have ancient rights too.
Giant Cheeseburger said quote:
In Melbourne it was even noted that a large number of the protesters were going to work during the day, going to the protest for a few hours once done and then catching the last train of the night home to sleep in their own beds. From that it would seem that the real thing they are protesting is the poor quality of TV programming in the evening!
I don't see anything wrong with people giving their spare time to support something they believe in. It doesn't make their protest any less valid.
[ 28. October 2011, 13:26: Message edited by: justlooking ]
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
I woulda thought God could deal with a bit of protestors around a cathedral. This thread makes it sound like God is simply not involved, beyond the machninations of the church hierarchy and a bit of ruminating about whether Jesus cared about the poor.
That and the idea that a protest has to fit into the modern management ideal of having a specific purpose and goal and plan is a little lame. Given people on here criticise the application of business practices to churches, I find it a bit hypocritical when they think its OK to apply that practice to a moral criticism of the business world.
Like saying God has to fit into the Pharisee box, but only the one from Sundays, while others have to fit into the work day box, but not on our turf.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
I have transferred my accounts from the Co-op because they give lots of their profits to left wing charities and the Labour Party.
They are only the Labour alternative to Tory banks. Just as un-ethical, and even more expensive.
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
That and the idea that a protest has to fit into the modern management ideal of having a specific purpose and goal and plan is a little lame.
Modern management ideal my arse. "Rebel Without a Cause" may have been a mildly diverting movie, but "Protest Without a Cause" does seem to be a bit of a waste of everyone's time.
"What do we want?
WE DON'T KNOW!
When do we want it?
WHENEVER!"
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
....., but the copycat protests around the world have no coherent organisation and are mainly the work of professional agitators who are already well known to local police...... Everybody with some random cause to push is getting involved and trying to hijack it for their pet purpose.
In Melbourne it was even noted that a large number of the protesters were going to work during the day, going to the protest for a few hours once done and then catching the last train of the night home to sleep in their own beds. From that it would seem that the real thing they are protesting is the poor quality of TV programming in the evening!
Have you proof on your first allegation?
Like, seriously, prove that the people doing Occupy are all criminals known to the cops?
Oh...wait...your second point disproves it, if true.
So, what is it?
Are they thugs, or daytrippers?
Or do you just want to keep both talking points going as it suits your particular axe to grind?
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I have no real opinion either way on why people are doing this and how effective it will all be. I do know there is a lot of disquiet in the world as we all wait for the next big recession.
But I get curious when people keep throwing out offbase unproven accusations at people who see to give a darn, like giving a darn is somehow a bad thing.
It makes me think some people are more worried about people protesting then about whether what they are protesting about has some validity.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dyfrig:
[qb] How about I suppose St Paul's is the Corporation's parish church.
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St Lawrence Jewry is the Corporation's parish church.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
That and the idea that a protest has to fit into the modern management ideal of having a specific purpose and goal and plan is a little lame.
Modern management ideal my arse. "Rebel Without a Cause" may have been a mildly diverting movie, but "Protest Without a Cause" does seem to be a bit of a waste of everyone's time.
"What do we want?
WE DON'T KNOW!
When do we want it?
WHENEVER!"
And this is wrong why?
Because it doesn't fit into modern business practice? Then, why are we not applying with equal vigour such practices to our churches?
What do we want?
Whatever God wants!
When do we want it?
Whenever God decides!
Good enough for the church but not for a protest movement?
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
An irony that the first scalp of the middle-class anti-capitalists should be a mockney old public schoolboy former trot now an unlikely cleric.
Doubtless he will find a new career at the BBC and no doubt much better paid too.
You sound mighty pissed off that anyone born rich enough to know better should ever decide to keep the poor in mind. What treason!
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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