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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: St Paul's To Close
Comper's Child
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http://tinyurl.com/3la49c4
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wesley J

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The same latest news, from the BBC:

quote:
The Dean of St Paul's Cathedral Graeme Knowles has resigned, saying he felt his position had become untenable.


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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Oh...the aim is to defeat right wingers? So much for all that stuff about speaking for the 99%.

[Confused] How do you get that? The contention is that the vast majority - metaphorically "the 99%" whether it is really 90% or 99.9% - are being ripped off by big business and big government and by the conservative politics that supports big business and big government. Some of that "99%" may vote for right-wing parties but they have been misled, they are in fact voting against their own interests.

You might disagree with that, you might think that those beliefs are false, but to the extent that the protestors are anarchists or left-wing socialists that is the kind of thing they are likely to actually believe. So as far as they are concerned opposing political conservatism is speaking for the 99%.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
The same latest news, from the BBC:

quote:
The Dean of St Paul's Cathedral Graeme Knowles has resigned, saying he felt his position had become untenable.

Car crash indeed! I feel for all those caught up in this unstoppable pile-up, most (or all) of whom never wished for any of this confrontation. It could have been easily avoided if the Cathedral authorities had negotiated with the protestors in the first place.

[Votive] for St Paul's, for the mission of the Church, for the City to discover a conscience. For Dean Graeme, Canon Giles and the chaplain who has resigned, and for all the other staff considering their future.

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Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Justinian
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
That and the idea that a protest has to fit into the modern management ideal of having a specific purpose and goal and plan is a little lame.

Modern management ideal my arse. "Rebel Without a Cause" may have been a mildly diverting movie, but "Protest Without a Cause" does seem to be a bit of a waste of everyone's time.

"What do we want?

WE DON'T KNOW!

When do we want it?

WHENEVER!"

More like

"What do we want?"
"Things to improve. People to pay their fair shares. No one to starve. Bankers to stop walking away with the treasury. And eventually a pony."
"How do we want it?"
"Democratically, in the most effective way possible."
"Why are you there then?"
"Because the longer we stay, the more people talk and think about it."

They are fairly clear about what they are objecting to and know they don't have detailed solutions. But the longer they stay, the more people are talking about it. The more people are awake. The more discussions go on like this that the current consensus just isn't right.

And while some have some solutions no one has all of it.

--------------------
My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Oh...the aim is to defeat right wingers? So much for all that stuff about speaking for the 99%.

[Confused] How do you get that? The contention is that the vast majority - metaphorically "the 99%" whether it is really 90% or 99.9% - are being ripped off by big business and big government and by the conservative politics that supports big business and big government. Some of that "99%" may vote for right-wing parties but they have been misled, they are in fact voting against their own interests.

You might disagree with that, you might think that those beliefs are false, but to the extent that the protestors are anarchists or left-wing socialists that is the kind of thing they are likely to actually believe. So as far as they are concerned opposing political conservatism is speaking for the 99%.

Agree entirely with the first paragraph. Big business and big government are ripping off most of the population. One, in the United States, conservatives are just as likely as progressives to oppose both big government and big business. Two, camping in public places and being a nuisance isn't going to fix anything or raise awareness to what most people already know. Three, effective political movements have a plan. Occupy Wall Street could become the Progressive answer to the Tea Party. Occupy Wall Street and the Tea Party could find common ground the way populists on the left and right have been trying to do for decades. At minimum, Occupy could come up with a list of proposals to start a conversation. Four, change comes through winning election. In other words, you have to persuade those who disagree with you not just speak to the choir. Messages beginning, "you poor stupid saps don't know what's good for you," don't play in Peoria.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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Nightlamp
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If only Giles Fraser had said you may protest but don't put up a campsite outside the cathedral it would have been fine.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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pete173
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I'm sad that the Dean felt he had to go. He's been a great colleague, always encouraging and full of camaraderie. It's a huge price to pay to try to give the Cathedral a fresh start on this debacle.

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Pete

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
...in the United States, conservatives are just as likely as progressives to oppose both big government and big business.

If that and also a commitment to liberty, then they aren't really conservatives

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
One, in the United States, conservatives are just as likely as progressives to oppose both big government and big business.

As ken points out, they are unlikely to be conservatives if they also have a commitment to liberty.

That said, a lot of conservatives say this, but their policy prescriptions are always about reducing big government, rather than curbing the powers of big business.

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Angloid
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I wonder whether, if a Government minister had been in the Dean's place, he or she would have resigned. At least the church has got some principles.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
One, in the United States, conservatives are just as likely as progressives to oppose both big government and big business.

As ken points out, they are unlikely to be conservatives if they also have a commitment to liberty.

That said, a lot of conservatives say this, but their policy prescriptions are always about reducing big government, rather than curbing the powers of big business.

[Roll Eyes]

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
That said, a lot of conservatives say this, but their policy prescriptions are always about reducing big government, rather than curbing the powers of big business.

Well, yeah. There's nothing wrong with tackling the bigger danger first, and leaving the smaller danger for later.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
That and the idea that a protest has to fit into the modern management ideal of having a specific purpose and goal and plan is a little lame.

Modern management ideal my arse. "Rebel Without a Cause" may have been a mildly diverting movie, but "Protest Without a Cause" does seem to be a bit of a waste of everyone's time.

"What do we want?

WE DON'T KNOW!

When do we want it?

WHENEVER!"

More like

"What do we want?"
"Things to improve. People to pay their fair shares. No one to starve. Bankers to stop walking away with the treasury. And eventually a pony."
"How do we want it?"
"Democratically, in the most effective way possible."
"Why are you there then?"
"Because the longer we stay, the more people talk and think about it."

They are fairly clear about what they are objecting to and know they don't have detailed solutions. But the longer they stay, the more people are talking about it. The more people are awake. The more discussions go on like this that the current consensus just isn't right.

And while some have some solutions no one has all of it.

So all the message is is that the indefensible is indefensible. Who do they think is out there that doesn't already think that some bankers and captains of industry are overpaid who will now think it because of this protest?

The only institution that seems to be suffering is the old sea-cucumber of the Church of England and not the vampire-squid of Goldman Sachs.

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
That said, a lot of conservatives say this, but their policy prescriptions are always about reducing big government, rather than curbing the powers of big business.

Well, yeah. There's nothing wrong with tackling the bigger danger first, and leaving the smaller danger for later.
Given that the current collapse of the world's economy was due to the excesses of big business, your assumption that big business constitutes the lesser of the evils is at best questionable. The power of the nation state is in decline, with multinational corporations filling the power vacuum. I certainly would not want to suggest that big government has been blameless, but it has acted as an enabler, not as the prime mover in this fiasco.

--Tom Clune

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This space left blank intentionally.

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shamwari
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So now the Dean and Canon Chancellor have resigned from St Pauls

The situation goes from tragedy to farce

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
So now the Dean and Canon Chancellor have resigned from St Pauls

The situation goes from tragedy to farce

Yes - I agree. I'm sure they made mistakes, but not offences worth resigning over.

I suspect huge rows behind the scenes at St Paul's - and that those supporting the 'establishment' and forcible removal of the protesters have won the day.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

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BroJames
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Two decent people, caught up in a situation not of their own making, feel that the only right thing to do is to resign their posts. I think 'tragedy' overstates it but 'farce' belittles it.

As Aumbry says, the indefensible is indefensible, and the protesters are pointing to the essential nakedness of the emperor of greed, much to the discomfiture of many who have been extolling the wonder of his clothes. In that much at least they are doing us a service.

Unfortunately it seems that big money can always find the means to defend even the indefensible, and St Paul's has been caught up in the backwash.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Given that the current collapse of the world's economy was due to the excesses of big business, your assumption that big business constitutes the lesser of the evils is at best questionable.

I was thinking in terms of personal freedom rather than economic wellbeing. Even the most powerful companies can't force me to buy their products or work in their offices. Governments have police officers and armies, and the proven willingness to use both to force their citizens to do what they say.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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passer

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BBC News channel has just mentioned that they will be speaking to the Bishop of Willesden on this shortly.
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Yangtze
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It could have been easily avoided if the Cathedral authorities had negotiated with the protestors in the first place.

And/or* perhaps if instead of continuing to say morning and evening prayers behind closed doors they had come out and said them on the steps.

*if they truly and really felt that there would be massive legal implications that would threaten other aspects of the Cathedral's life of work and worship if they did come out and talk. Personally I think that even if this were the case they should have risked it (and it seems that's what Giles Fraser was thinking too) but I'm not the Dean and Chapter. But to say prayers behind locked doors....... [Frown] [Waterworks]

--------------------
Arthur & Henry Ethical Shirts for Men
organic cotton, fair trade cotton, linen

Sometimes I wonder What's for Afters?

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I was thinking in terms of personal freedom rather than economic wellbeing.

That's going to be a painful divorce.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Even the most powerful companies can't force me to buy their products or work in their offices.

Actually they would if they could. Think of Microsoft's "embrace and extend" tactics. Or nestle's tactics selling formula. Or drug company marketing. Laws stop them going further.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Governments have police officers and armies, and the proven willingness to use both to force their citizens to do what they say.

But we can get rid of them by voting them out. How can I vote the banks out?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I was thinking in terms of personal freedom rather than economic wellbeing. Even the most powerful companies can't force me to buy their products or work in their offices. Governments have police officers and armies, and the proven willingness to use both to force their citizens to do what they say.

Even a cursory glance at modern history should make plain that the most common use of state power against personal freedom has been in the service of monied interests, not in the service of political ends. The many banana republics in the world may use their force to prop up an illegitimate government, but the western powers don't engage in that sort of thing for the most part -- and the illegitimate banana republic governments are almost uniformly puppets of economic interests. In short, my point stands.

--Tom Clune

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
That said, a lot of conservatives say this, but their policy prescriptions are always about reducing big government, rather than curbing the powers of big business.

Well, yeah. There's nothing wrong with tackling the bigger danger first, and leaving the smaller danger for later.
Exactly. That's why it should be the other way round. Which national government is 'big' enough to challenge the power of international capital?

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
That said, a lot of conservatives say this, but their policy prescriptions are always about reducing big government, rather than curbing the powers of big business.

Well, yeah. There's nothing wrong with tackling the bigger danger first, and leaving the smaller danger for later.
Exactly. That's why it should be the other way round. Which national government is 'big' enough to challenge the power of international capital?
You seem to overlook that the main culprits of international capital that were responsible for the credit crunch went bust and national governments had to step in to bail them out. The banks were too weak and not too powerful. The problem that led to the debacle was one of an over supply of cheap credit which had come about due to distortions in international trade and the Cult of Globalisation for which governments can equally take the blame.

[ 31. October 2011, 17:59: Message edited by: aumbry ]

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Robert Armin

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Angloid:
quote:
[Votive] for St Paul's, for the mission of the Church, for the City to discover a conscience. For Dean Graeme, Canon Giles and the chaplain who has resigned, and for all the other staff considering their future.
[Votive] What he said.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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shamwari
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My sympathies are with those who have resigned.

FWIW I think the bankers and those who plunged us into economic chaos (Fred Goodwin and his like) should have been prosecuted to the fullest extent.

The (continuing) escalation in top salaries is obscene and should be capped. If they dont like it they can go elsewhere but elsewhere is a limited option these days.

The St Pauls protestors are idiots in that they cannot formulate any coherent list of demands. Naomi Colvin ( their spokesperson on radio) is tongue-tied whenever asked for specifics about their protest.

So, a plague on both their houses.

Evacuate the protestors. Bring in legal restrictions against the "fat cats". Let the Church be the Church. And let some modicum of common sense prevail.

Its not going to happen any time soon.

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Boogie

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Our own Simon is on BBC News Channel talking about it right now [Smile]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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ianjmatt
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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
My sympathies are with those who have resigned.

FWIW I think the bankers and those who plunged us into economic chaos (Fred Goodwin and his like) should have been prosecuted to the fullest extent.

The (continuing) escalation in top salaries is obscene and should be capped. If they dont like it they can go elsewhere but elsewhere is a limited option these days.

The St Pauls protestors are idiots in that they cannot formulate any coherent list of demands. Naomi Colvin ( their spokesperson on radio) is tongue-tied whenever asked for specifics about their protest.

So, a plague on both their houses.

Evacuate the protestors. Bring in legal restrictions against the "fat cats". Let the Church be the Church. And let some modicum of common sense prevail.

Its not going to happen any time soon.

No no no no

Please let us not have any more 'the government must do something' reaction - we had enough of that under Blair and look where that got us in other sectors. It is time for Shareholders to flex their muscles more - and that is where the direct action ought to be focussed: equipping, educating and campaigning for corporate shareholders to vote against the salaries offered. And for people to vote with their wallets when it doesn't happen (e.g. move your bank account, change pension provider, use a different insure etc)

The truth is everyone who looked for good performing pension funds, endowment policies to pay off their mortgages, cheap, low-deposit mortgages or unrealistic remortgaging and endless 0% credit card deals are guilty of fuelling the sort of trading that led to this mess. It is too simplistic to blame the latest bogeymen.

--------------------
You might want to visit my blog:
http://lostintheheartofsomewhere.blogspot.com

But maybe not

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justlooking
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# 12079

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Our own Simon is on BBC News Channel talking about it right now [Smile]

I've just seen it. I think it was great - perhaps there'll be a link to it soon. Our very own Simon Jenkins of Ship of Fools on the Beeb! He was saying that the Occupy London protestors have come to church, albeit by accident, and that the church needs to talk with them and engage with what they're saying. He said that Jesus would have been with the protestors and
not consulting his lawyers about how to get rid of them. Simon was proclaiming the gospel of Christ on primetime TV news. Brilliant!

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mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
The banks were too weak and not too powerful.

They were insufficiently regulated. To ask whether one regards that as too weak or too powerful is rather clumsy.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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art dunce
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Goldman Sachs was strong enough to cook Greece's books and help them deceive fellow EU nations .

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Ego is not your amigo.

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Ancient Mariner

Sip the ship
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Simon was superb on BBC News 24. [Overused]

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Ship of Fools' first novel, Rattles & Rosettes, is the tale of two football (soccer) fans: 16-year-old Tom in 1914 and Dan in 2010. More at www.rattlesandrosettes.com

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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For those of us who missed the boat, has it been youtubed yet?

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Forward the New Republic

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Comper's Child
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# 10580

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Here's the Dean on Youtube:

http://tinyurl.com/3sqse5n

Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Comper's Child
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# 10580

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Having well missed the edit time, I hasten to remark, now having watched the whole thing, that this very lengthy video is a press conference about the resignation.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
shamwari
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# 15556

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As someone has said "Its a national joke" referring to the CofE.

Too true

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
You seem to overlook that the main culprits of international capital that were responsible for the credit crunch went bust and national governments had to step in to bail them out. The banks were too weak and not too powerful.

Alternatively, they were powerful enough to cause the crisis to start with, and then managed to get bailed out by threatening to crash the global economy when they needed their losses to be socialised.

Additionally, they were able to dictate the terms of the bailout - no Swedish style solution for GS and others, and they carried on as before.

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Amos

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quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
Here's the Dean on Youtube:

http://tinyurl.com/3sqse5n

That's not the Dean, that's the Major-General.
[Razz]

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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Late Quartet

Irredeemably speciesist?
# 1207

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Fascinating piece by George Monbiot analysing the power & principality that is the Corporation of London. Their weight cannot be easily underestimated. (Link anyone?)

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Late Quartet is cycling closer to Route 6 than Route 66 these days.

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Qoheleth.

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quote:
Originally posted by Late Quartet:
Fascinating piece by George Monbiot analysing the power & principality that is the Corporation of London. Their weight cannot be easily underestimated. (Link anyone?)

Link

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Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
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It all sounds like a disproportionate failure of nerve to me. God knows what they'd have done in a real crisis - and may He defend them from any such.

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
That said, a lot of conservatives say this, but their policy prescriptions are always about reducing big government, rather than curbing the powers of big business.

[Roll Eyes] [/QB]
Roll your eyes all you want; but in the American scene (which I assume you are talking about) even the paleo-conservatives mostly campaign against welfare for the poor even as they benefit from corporate welfare.

If you are going to tackle the those who have their snouts in the trough of government, it makes logical sense to go after the fatter pigs first.

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Beeswax Altar
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Paleos support abolition of both most welfare for corporations and individuals. Far more US conservatives are concerned with both big business and big corporations. On the left, Kirkpatrick Sale comes to mind. Other than that...

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
The banks were too weak and not too powerful.

They were insufficiently regulated. To ask whether one regards that as too weak or too powerful is rather clumsy.
The banks had too many friends (or there were too many weak leaders) in high places. Having had to kowtow to the FSA in another sphere, I know how picky they can be about a return being a day late. They seem rather less worried about the figures being cooked up than they did about an MFS1 arriving on the 8th not the 7th.

There has always been a constant lobbying process going on - don't forget that even with the FSA in place it is still effectively self regulation. ALL the inspectors and most FSA staff are from the banks: they have a vested interest esp as their contracts were short term not permanent and many would hope to return to a bank career later. You're not going to mess in your own nest are you?

Given a few wacky ideas, lax regulation and a group of chums (MP's and Royalty included - yes they played their part too in it), you have a recipe for exactly what happened. Deregulate and anything goes, until it goes wrong. Trouble is with finance and big numbers, when it goes wrong it does so with a vengence.

[ 01. November 2011, 07:11: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

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Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

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Good news: St Paul's suspends legal action (and Bishop Chatres wants to connect the 'financial with the ethical')

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Even a cursory glance at modern history should make plain that the most common use of state power against personal freedom has been in the service of monied interests, not in the service of political ends.

Yes, of course. Not that the two are separate anyway. In most places and most times the political arrangements tend on the whole to support the rich and the powerful against the poor and the helpless. That's one of the things we mean when we say "rich and powerful".

And Martin is wrong in detail anyway.

For one thing, in the world as it is now its a lot easier to stop being a citizen of the UK or the USA than it is to stop being a customer of IBM or Shell or Unilever or Panasonic or Procter & Gamble or Barclay's Bank (even if only indirectly because they are suppliers of the thing you use that are sold by other companies).

For another, both private companies and rich individuals can and do employ armed men to enforce their way of doing things. In rich countries with functioning governments they tend to be thought of as "protecting property" but it all comes to much the same thing in the end.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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Well, the whole St Paul's business settles one issue for me. Next time I visit St Paul's, I'll be quite happy to pay an entrance fee. You expect to pay fees for ancient monuments, stately homes, museums. You don't pay entrance fees for churches. For me, now, St Paul's falls into the first category: it really can't call itself a church any more.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justinian
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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
So all the message is is that the indefensible is indefensible. Who do they think is out there that doesn't already think that some bankers and captains of industry are overpaid who will now think it because of this protest?

Not many people. The point is keeping it up there in the public consciousness - rather than having the next round of celebrity gossip distract everyone. And meeting and trying to get further on what can be done.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Given that the current collapse of the world's economy was due to the excesses of big business, your assumption that big business constitutes the lesser of the evils is at best questionable.

I was thinking in terms of personal freedom rather than economic wellbeing.
The difference being?

quote:
Even the most powerful companies can't force me to buy their products
Apparently Microsoft don't exist.

quote:
or work in their offices.
That's not for want of trying - look up Company Towns. Or what Chinese corporations do to their workers.

quote:
Governments have police officers and armies, and the proven willingness to use both to force their citizens to do what they say.
Democratic governments can get voted out. As they do when they overreach. Corporations on the other hand aren't responsible to anyone. And if we didn't kick them down and keep them down, they'd behave the way they did in the 19th century. Setting up monopolies and company towns. Stealing from and short changing everyone. Using force where they thought they could get away with it.

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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
Link

Wow. And here was I thinking the Channel Islands were a bit grubby. Can anyone not from the Grauniad side of the Ship offer any defence of this?

If the legal action intended brings the City of London Corporation into the spotlight, perhaps the protestors will have actually achieved something worthwhile?

[ETA x-post. I don't think this was the kind of Corporation Justinian had in mind, but if the shoe fits...]

[ 01. November 2011, 14:08: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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