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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Eccles: Latin in the (Anglican) liturgy (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: Latin in the (Anglican) liturgy
Angloid
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But usually Mag-nificat, not Mahn-yificat, and Tea Dee-um, not Tay Dayum.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
I know that one point early in the 20th century there was a document that standardized the Latin pronunciation in the Church according to the Italian style, and the instructions in the Liber Usualis follow this pronunciation, but as Triple Tiara points out in practice there are still regional variations, and even the Pope uses a German-style pronunciation.

In classical-style pronunciation the consonants are pronounced more or less like in English, "C" and "G" are always hard, "U" is sometimes a vowel and sometimes like a "W", and there's a distinction between short and long vowels, among other things. As a native Romance speaker, the short/long vowel distinction always feels kind of awkward to me.

Not to quibble too much, but in classical Latin you have no letter u, nor j. Instead you have V, which does duty as both the consonant (pronounced as a W in N. American classical Latin) and as the vowel that we symbolise as U. Then you have an I, which as a consonant is pronounced like the English consonant Y, and when functioning as a vowel is usually sounded like the English short i in "fish".

The letters U and J were invented by mediaeval scribes, and very useful they are. Except for inscriptions on buildings, you really wouldn't want to do without them in reading Latin efficiently.

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Pancho
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Not to quibble too much, but in classical Latin you have no letter u, nor j....

Yes, that occurred to me after I wrote my post, but I was too lazy to go back and edit it [Smile] . "U" is sometimes used in modern texts so for example my textbook has "servus" instead of "servvs" though it doesn't use "J" ("Ianuarius" instead of "Januarius" or "Ianvarivs").

[ 23. May 2012, 15:13: Message edited by: Pancho ]

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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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Forthview
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When listening to others speak,one can often tell from their accent where their origins lie.
When one listens to a person speaking another language from his or her own,one can often tell where that person comes from originally.

So it was in the days when in the Catholic church all Latin rite Masses were celebrated in that language.Even priests who were very good at speaking various languages would normally use their own language's pronunciation of ecclesiastical Latin.Most French priests would pronounce 'Sanctus' as 'song tees'

I remember my utter shock when I heard the American cardinal Cushing celebrate the Requiem Mass for President Kennedy.I couldn't believe that it was possible and yet if one was used to an American accent (which I wasn't)I suppose it was quite normal.

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
I know that one point early in the 20th century there was a document that standardized the Latin pronunciation in the Church according to the Italian style

This is quite so. In fact it was standardised in 1913 by Pope Pius X with pronunciation to conform to the Roman Italian of the day. As Enoch has said, there is nobody around today who knows how classical Latin was pronounced.

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
On the other hand, most people have managed to worship in non-contemporary languages through the ages, eg Sanskrit, Hebrew, Classical Arabic, Old Church Slavonic, Byzantine and Koine Greek, Jacobean English, and so on..._)

When the first English Prayer Books were published in the 16th century, they were meant to be in a vernacular understood by the people. By the 20th century, that vernacular had become what it was meant to replace, ie a liturgical language. When one speaks to God in thees and thous, and recites a creed about the quick and the dead, one is speaking in a manner not used in everyday conversation. I think this has its uses, as speaking to God can be hallowed and set apart from daily speech.

When a Church has a large international following like the Catholic Church and, to a lesser degree the Russian Orthodox Church, there's something comforting to know that the Mass will be the same in Poland and Peru, in Venice and Venezuala. Though Mass should always be available in the vernacular, I, for one, love it in Latin.

quote:
Originally posted by Litugylover:
Interestingly, they have adopted almost, but not quite all of the changes of the new translation.

I was in the back of St Alban the Martyr, Holborn last week, and I noticed that they've adopted the new translation, apart from the creed, which still begins with the awful mistranslation, "We believe." I can't see the point of that. Many of these Anglo-Catholic churches used the Roman Rite out of some sense of unity with the wider Catholic Church. The Holy Father has decreed that English speaing Catholics will use the new translation. The Bishop of London has decreed that Anglican Churches in his diocese will use Common Worship (or the Prayer Book, of course). so they are obeying nobody at St Albans, and going it entirely alone.

Most Anglican Churches which have a fine choral tradition, and there are many in London, will often have the Gloria, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei in Latin, when performing Mass setting by the great European composers. I've never been in an Anglican Church where the Mass was celebrated in Latin except at Corpus Christi.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
When listening to others speak,one can often tell from their accent where their origins lie.
When one listens to a person speaking another language from his or her own,one can often tell where that person comes from originally.

Rather curiously, my wife has a Danish accent when speaking German - or so we are told. Her grandfather was Danish, but she had no knowledge of Danish before she started on German - weird that!

PD

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Mockingbird

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
There's at least four pronunciations of Latin. AFAIK nobody really knows how the Romans pronounced it. There's no tapes or CDs from that era.

There are, however, pronunciation manuals and grammar-books and poetry from that time, from which one can draw reasonable conclusions.

In after days, Cassiodorus Senator wrote a spelling-book, suggesting (to me at least) that the pronunciation of Latin had by his time departed somewhat from the spelling.

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Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.

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venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
When the first English Prayer Books were published in the 16th century, they were meant to be in a vernacular understood by the people. By the 20th century, that vernacular had become what it was meant to replace, ie a liturgical language.

The Cornish couldn't understand English, so they rebelled.

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Morlader
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The Cornish couldn't understand English, so they rebelled.

Twas a little more complex, and political, than that. "couldn't" should probably be "wouldn't" [Biased]

There are perhaps half a dozen services a year now, and increasing, in Cornish. There are probably some in Australia and California, too. But even fewer people understand Cornish now than understood English in 1549! [Big Grin]

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.. to utmost west.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The Cornish couldn't understand English, so they rebelled.

Twas a little more complex, and political, than that. "couldn't" should probably be "wouldn't" [Biased]

Or rather, 'why should they'?

--------------------
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venbede
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I was taking the view I gathered from reading Philip Payton's history of Cornwall. He is very keen to emphasis separate Cornish identity.

Devonshire peasants also objected to the imposition of the 1549 prayer book, and could speak English. I imagine they found the new service was devoid of the visual, symbolic and holistic elements of the medieval mass and only conveyed matters through literate speech - with which as Devonian peasants, they may have found hard work.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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sebby
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The pope seems to pronounce Latin with a Germanic lilt to an essentially Italianate style and varies it from time to time, either consciously or unconsciously, or that it is how it appears.

'School' Latin pronunciation has also changed as other shipmates have stated: DULCIS used to be pronounced DULL-SIS then this gave way to 'DUL -KISS whilst Church Latin would use DUL-CHEES.

Classical scholars have argued for generations about the 'proper' classical pronunciation. One suspects that there was really no such thing. The size of the empire, and the wide use of the language led to many varied pronunciations (like English today). Based on scansion and research of Horace's Odes, it is presumed that the middle of the Dulcis pronunciations would have been more 'correct'. Similarly it would depend on what era you would regard as the most pure, or whether it had to be Latin as spoken in Rome by the Romans at a given date (and this would also have varied).

It was regarded as a sign that Newman had set his mind on conversion when at Littlemore the residents of the 'monastery' changed from the English public school-university pronunciation to the Italianate one.

I would side with the more Italianiate as being beautiful and flowing and suitable for singing. And yet I have heard Latin cogniscent Spanish priests argue for Spanish te-tum-te-tum...et in saecula saeculorum.

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sebhyatt

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Pancho
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Curiosity gets the better of me. What is "Spanish te-tum-te-tum"?

--------------------
“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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Corvo
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Just back from the installation of the new Dean of St Paul's Cathedral.

It's not strictly speaking 'liturgical' , but he took the Oath to uphold the Constitution and Statutes of the Cathedral in (rather fluent sounding) Latin.

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
It was regarded as a sign that Newman had set his mind on conversion when at Littlemore the residents of the 'monastery' changed from the English public school-university pronunciation to the Italianate one.

I am fascinated by this. My doctoral research deals with an aspect of this particular period and I've never come across any such suggestion. Could you point me to a source, please?

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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sebby
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I am happy to try and remember where I read this. I have a few Newman shelves of books to explore. Perhaps we can discuss off-line?

I have an idea that it was an observation of Dr Bloxam, Newman's distinguished curate and a Fellow of Magdalen.

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sebhyatt

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Quam Dilecta
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One of the ironies of liturgical history is the fact, pointed out in the previous post, that Anglicans have kept the Latin tags for the psalms and canticles, while English-speaking Roman Catholics have chosen to translate them. The same is true of the chants at Mass: at my Anglo-Catholic parish church, the choir sings the Introit; at the Roman church down the street, the same text is called the Entrance Song.

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Blessd are they that dwell in thy house

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Edgeman
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quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
One of the ironies of liturgical history is the fact, pointed out in the previous post, that Anglicans have kept the Latin tags for the psalms and canticles, while English-speaking Roman Catholics have chosen to translate them. The same is true of the chants at Mass: at my Anglo-Catholic parish church, the choir sings the Introit; at the Roman church down the street, the same text is called the Entrance Song.

Hopefully, they're now calling it the Entrance Chant since that's what the new General Instruction calls it! (But I highly doubt it.)

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Clavus
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Protestant orders of service often conclude with a Benediction.
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Chorister

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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I was taking the view I gathered from reading Philip Payton's history of Cornwall. He is very keen to emphasis separate Cornish identity.

Devonshire peasants also objected to the imposition of the 1549 prayer book, and could speak English. I imagine they found the new service was devoid of the visual, symbolic and holistic elements of the medieval mass and only conveyed matters through literate speech - with which as Devonian peasants, they may have found hard work.

In Sampford Courtenay (Devon) they still make quite a thing of it.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
In Sampford Courtenay (Devon) they still make quite a thing of it.

What had poor Mr Hellyons done? Called the vicar a whore of Babylon or something?

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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venbede
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I imagine quite the reverse. He'd probably expressed enthusiasm for the ghastly new services imposed without pastoral consultation. I'll go and check.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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venbede
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Right. I quote from W H Hoskins' Devon.

"The parishoners of Sampford Courtnenay ... heard (the new service) read and did not like it and on the following day compelled their parish priest to return to the old ritual. The likened the new services to "a Christmas game" and would have no changes until the King was of full age.

Local justices came to remonstrate with the parishoners. A meeting took place in a field ... but the peasantry stood firm. William Hellyons, one the the gentry of (the) parish, rebuked them too tactlessly, tempers were high already, and as he was going down the stairs of the church house... a farmer named Lethbridge struck him on the neck with a bill."

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Angloid
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The bill for 200 copies of the Book of Common Prayer?

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Lone voice: I'm not!

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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
At Oxford once a month this has always allowed for a Latin celebration of communion. This takes place at St Mary the Virgin, the University church.

Not monthly, only termly - on the morning of the Thursday before full term. There is also the Latin Litany and Sermon early in Hilary Term -

Quite so - they may have replaced them by now, but when I attended this some years ago the service books still had in the prayers for the royal family mention of the Queen - not Elizabeth II, but Victoria, of course. Used only once a year, they wouldn't wear out, I suppose.

I am surprised. In 1986/7 the books placed in the stalls of the proctors (or more often, their sermon-tasting deputies!) were for the current reign. There are changes to the translations (apart from changes to the names of the monarch and royal family) from the Victorian ones.(These could be picked up in second-hand bookshops at one time, St Mary's must have sold them off.) I have no idea who felt the translation needed improved. Perhaps Fr Mascall? He was said to be responsible for revising the version of the prayers recited in the vestry after the Latin Communion.

"My" proctor tried to get me a copy of the Latin Prayer Book from the OUP as a memento of the year's sermons: "We shredded surplus stock last year, sir."

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Metapelagius
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quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
At Oxford once a month this has always allowed for a Latin celebration of communion. This takes place at St Mary the Virgin, the University church.

Not monthly, only termly - on the morning of the Thursday before full term. There is also the Latin Litany and Sermon early in Hilary Term -

Quite so - they may have replaced them by now, but when I attended this some years ago the service books still had in the prayers for the royal family mention of the Queen - not Elizabeth II, but Victoria, of course. Used only once a year, they wouldn't wear out, I suppose.

I am surprised. In 1986/7 the books placed in the stalls of the proctors (or more often, their sermon-tasting deputies!) were for the current reign. There are changes to the translations (apart from changes to the names of the monarch and royal family) from the Victorian ones.(These could be picked up in second-hand bookshops at one time, St Mary's must have sold them off.) I have no idea who felt the translation needed improved. Perhaps Fr Mascall? He was said to be responsible for revising the version of the prayers recited in the vestry after the Latin Communion.

"My" proctor tried to get me a copy of the Latin Prayer Book from the OUP as a memento of the year's sermons: "We shredded surplus stock last year, sir."

My memories would be of the late 1960s.

I am sad to hear that the Press has succumbed to the base commercialism that you describe. A far cry from the patience shown to David Wilkins' translation of the New Testament from Coptic into Latin. The last of the 500 copies printed in 1716 remained in stock until 1907.

[ 04. June 2012, 21:55: Message edited by: Metapelagius ]

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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.

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Ceremoniar
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I have a Latin edition of the Book of Common Prayer, Liber Precum Publicarum (Ecclesiae Anglicanae), published in 1902 by Longmans, Green and Company. It includes the Scottish and American rites in Latin, as well.
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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
My memories would be of the late 1960s.

I am sad to hear that the Press has succumbed to the base commercialism that you describe. A far cry from the patience shown to David Wilkins' translation of the New Testament from Coptic into Latin. The last of the 500 copies printed in 1716 remained in stock until 1907. [/QB]

My very hazy recollection of 1964 Latin Litany is of rather worn brown books; I have no recollection whatsoever of the textual niceties. In 1974 (ish) the then Junior Proctor sang the Litany himself instead of by deputy, and did it so well that he was employed as deputy by all his successors until 1987 or later. I think the new books were in use by 1974. I recall in 1987, by which time the books certainly were new, that the Master of Balliol presided as Pro VC: a certain frisson as the erstwhile Fr Kenny sang the concluding prayers after the sermon.

As the Press, Ichabod!

[ 06. June 2012, 14:38: Message edited by: american piskie ]

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Enoch
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Was the sermon in Latin too? If it wasn't, that rather calls into question how much the rest of the service was in a tongue understanded of the people. And was a translation provided?

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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otyetsfoma
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I have posessed two different latin BCPs: one (the more antique)retranslated the bits Cranmer etc tanslated from the latin back into latin (so the e.g," Lord have mercy " became "Domine miserere nobis"), The other (by Bright and Medd I recall) reverted to the originals unless significant changes had been made.
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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Was the sermon in Latin too? If it wasn't, that rather calls into question how much the rest of the service was in a tongue understanded of the people. And was a translation provided?

Of course. Latin Litany and Sermon is what is advertised and what is provided. Current practice seems to be that the preacher provides an English crib.
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Ahleal V
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quote:
Originally posted by Sacred London:
Just back from the installation of the new Dean of St Paul's Cathedral.

It's not strictly speaking 'liturgical' , but he took the Oath to uphold the Constitution and Statutes of the Cathedral in (rather fluent sounding) Latin.

I believe Dean Ison has a PhD in Patristics (The Constantinian oration to the saints : authorship and background, KCL, 1985) so I guess he would be more likely to be fluent in Latin than most!

x

AV

[ 10. June 2012, 07:07: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]

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