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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: "A Church Divided": Aftermath of Virginia Anglican/Episcopal Battle
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I do wish folks would not call the ACNA/CANA crowd continuing Anglicans. The defining issues for the Continuers were the 1928 BCP and the Ordination of Women, neither of which are of any practical interest to Bishop Duncan's crowd. They have already accepted the major tenants of liberalism, so I do not see why they have such a beef with TEC. They differ only in degree not kind!
PD
I thought it kinder and more politic than calling them what they are - schismatics.
They are.
But so are we. Best not to forget this one, I feel.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I do wish folks would not call the ACNA/CANA crowd continuing Anglicans. The defining issues for the Continuers were the 1928 BCP and the Ordination of Women, neither of which are of any practical interest to Bishop Duncan's crowd. They have already accepted the major tenants of liberalism, so I do not see why they have such a beef with TEC. They differ only in degree not kind!
PD
I thought it kinder and more politic than calling them what they are - schismatics.
They are.
But so are we. Best not to forget this one, I feel.
Oh, sure. The inconvenient fact is that I find it hard to escape the judgment that the ACNA is a convocation of weasels and thieves who bolted because they just couldn't tolerate a difference in opinion when it came to the gays (theology, liturgy, church governance, sure. But not the gays). But I didn't want to say that. But now I have. Oops.
At least I'm honest.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I do wish folks would not call the ACNA/CANA crowd continuing Anglicans. The defining issues for the Continuers were the 1928 BCP and the Ordination of Women, neither of which are of any practical interest to Bishop Duncan's crowd. They have already accepted the major tenants of liberalism, so I do not see why they have such a beef with TEC. They differ only in degree not kind!
PD
I thought it kinder and more politic than calling them what they are - schismatics.
They are.
But so are we. Best not to forget this one, I feel.
Oh, sure. The inconvenient fact is that I find it hard to escape the judgment that the ACNA is a convocation of weasels and thieves who bolted because they just couldn't tolerate a difference in opinion when it came to the gays (theology, liturgy, church governance, sure. But not the gays). But I didn't want to say that. But now I have. Oops.
At least I'm honest.
With a name like mine, I naturally approve of the latter. I can't attest to the weasels and thieves bit (we did a more impressive bit of church-nicking in our time), but as to the rest, it seems self-evidently true.
However (there's always a drawback, isn't there?) - it would be easy to cast the issue as a single-issue problem. It's about teh gayz. Well, it is, but to what extent? It's fair to say that it was a problem for those who left, but that probably varies between a huge insuperable problem, right down to a minor annoyance that nevertheless was the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't really have a feel for how that distribution plays out, save only to say that it appears to exist. And because it exists, nobody should be under any illusions that the Next Big Thing™ to come down the tracks won't almost certainly precipitate a repeat performance.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
What Honest Ron said
Plus, churches are not in the same rate of decline in the United States as in Europe. The United States has churches many churches that are growing and thriving. The ones that are haven't embraced anything like the current paradigm of TEC.
The TEC has many churches that are growing and thriving as well - both liberal (All Saints, Pasadena and Beverly Hills) and conservative (St. Martin's Houston, etc.) as well as high church and low church. I'm not sure if this represents an increase due to the clustering of people fleeing smaller, deader churches for an experience with more spiritual vitality, or whether they are attracting people from outside the denominational community or probably, a mix of both, but it is happening. To say that all TEC churches are in crisis and dying isn't truer than saying that there isn't a problem at all.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Yes, there are still large TEC parishes in urban areas. Your point? St. Martin's is the largest parish in TEC. It's not among the top 100 in the United States or even the top 5 in Houston.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
I think his point may have been, Beeswax, that there might be hope for the Episcopal Church yet.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
ToujoursDan wrote: quote:
As the people that make up the TEC tends to be more affluent and attract more lifelong singles, gays and urban people, their fertility rates will be lower than the average for all whites nationwide. There is a Faith Communities Together (FACT) Study that estimated that the fertility rate for Episcopalians and Presbyterians is closer to 1.3 per couple, which would cause a 40% shrinkage per generation. When I have more time I can search for the link to it.
OK, thanks. If you could dig out the statistics it would be interesting.
Incidentally, it's right that a lower fertility rate produces a diminution in overall population of the same factor per generation, but not until about the third generation onwards, due to people living beyond their reproductive age. I had assumed the trend was new-ish, but if not, then it lends added credence to the thesis that population statistics being seen now are the result of actions taken around 50 to 60 years ago, and you are right to use the reduction per generation figure for the present.
As to the decline elsewhere, our experience here is that there has been a widespread decline in engagement across all organizations that could be classed as voluntary - not just churches. I can't really comment on how TEC is doing vs. other churches, but I'm sure there must be comparable stats. out there.
The membership declines started about the time I was born - 1965 or so - so we are about 50 years into it, which would be about the second or third generation.
(This decline also coincided with the with the widespread use to the pill and introduction of affordable television, neither of which is coincidental IMHO.)
Here's a rather crappy graph of the growth and decline in the 20th Century: Episcopal Church Membership Trades 1925-2010. I'd give you something better but the TEC just redid the website (again!) and it's full of dead links. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
But you can see a rise through the Baby Boom generation that hit a peak around 1965 which roughly follows the national birthrate index. The decline first happened steeply and then slowly levelled off with year to year declines happening at slower rates each year (though I would imagine that the secession of entire dioceses in the 2005-2010 rate will change that trend...)
Of course, this is based on self reporting and there have been several canonical changes regarding the counting of members and gathering of statistics through the period which would affect numbers in either direction, so you'll have to take membership figures and the graphs with a grain of salt. Still, schism notwithstanding, it pretty closely matches the growth and decline found in all mainline denominations and in the RCC if one took immigration out of the picture.
So, again, I'd agree that the TEC is in crisis but still maintain that this is a societal demographic trend that is far larger than the TEC and can't be solved if we only do "X" or "Y". You'll find denominations that are already doing "X" or "Y" that are no healthier than we are.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Yes, there are still large TEC parishes in urban areas. Your point? St. Martin's is the largest parish in TEC. It's not among the top 100 in the United States or even the top 5 in Houston.
Not sure what your point is. I'm not talking about how many megachurches there are, but whether there are healthy growing TEC churches. There objectively are. Even when the TEC was its largest and most influential we were eclipsed by the Methodists and the Baptists.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Our largest church is on the conservative fringe of TEC. I've met priests from St. Martins. They are all more conservative than I am. Where is the hope?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
Then speak to the priests at All Saints Pasadena, or All Saints Beverly Hills... If you recall, I wrote that there are parishes on both ends of the spectrum that are experiencing healthy growth and community engagement. The ultimate size relative to other denominations isn't as important as their growth and mission and ministry.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
And a good, long (84 page paper) on the institutional health of the TEC relative to other denominations (and what works and what doesn't) can be found here: Faith Communities Today: Report on the Episcopal Church USA
It concludes with a fairly balanced picture of TECs strengths and problems:
quote:
The Episcopal Church is unique among mainline Protestant denominations in that it has a clear identity which is celebrated by almost all of its churches and a large number of healthy, growing congregations... Despite these positive features, certain problems or "serious realities" are also apparent in the data contained in this report. Specifically, the Episcopal Church has many small, weak congregations that are attended and supported by an aging (and largely female) membership. The aging of the Episcopal Church and the weakening of smaller congregations in small towns and older urban neighborhoods can only be expected to worsen, given the demographics of the population, the minimal evangelism efforts of most Episcopal congregations, and the small numbers of new churches being started in expanding suburban areas.
The Episcopal Church has an advantage in that it could respond to its serious realities by expanding on its strong points, rather than trying to somehow turn weaknesses into strengths. Episcopal churches are known for their liturgy and for the fact that the Episcopal Church is a progressive denomination, populated (for the most part) by educated, open-minded people. The strongest Episcopal congregations do liturgy well and are able to project a moral presence in the community without resorting to a dogmatic theology. Episcopal congregations are attractive to unchurched and formerly churched adults who want to experience the sacred and grow in their faith in a context devoid of condemnation...
The whole thing is worth a read...
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
How large is All Saints Beverly Hills? We are a church that appeals to affluent white people of a fashionably progressive bent. Beverly Hills has a bunch of affluent white people of a fashionably progressive bent. It is a part of the second largest metropolitan area of the country. Best I can tell, All Saints Beverly Hills is probably around half the size of St. Martins Houston.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
How large is All Saints Beverly Hills? We are a church that appeals to affluent white people of a fashionably progressive bent. Beverly Hills has a bunch of affluent white people of a fashionably progressive bent. It is a part of the second largest metropolitan area of the country. Best I can tell, All Saints Beverly Hills is probably around half the size of St. Martins Houston.
Not sure what your point is. Best I can tell you seem to be saying that the only healthy congregations are megachurches. And that white people in large metropolitan areas don't have valid spiritual needs, so they shouldn't count. Strange.
[ 13. April 2012, 18:24: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Yes, there are still large TEC parishes in urban areas. Your point? St. Martin's is the largest parish in TEC. It's not among the top 100 in the United States or even the top 5 in Houston.
I would think that the point is that growing parishes in certain locations shows that there's still health in the Church - it's clearly working in some places, for some people, and it's not uniformly dying off.
Heck, if a parish grows from 50 to 100 people, it's still a tiny parish, but it's definitely doing well. Who says we need 5000 member megachurches?
I think TEC will level off. There is a core of people who desire to worship and who find value in some form of the liturgical tradition. We won't be as large as we were in the early 20th century. We may never be again. We may have to consolidate 10 small parishes in a city into 2 or 3 larger parishes. But we'll survive. And it might be better to have 500,000 people that genuinely value the church and its mission than to have 5 million, 90% of whom just go because that's what' expected in their social sphere.
For better or worse, church attendance is no longer a social prerequisite for membership in the middle and upper classes. I think that accounts for a lot of the dropouts. But separating out the chaff isn't such a terrible thing, challenging as it may be.
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
The strongest Episcopal congregations do liturgy well and are able to project a moral presence in the community without resorting to a dogmatic theology.
According to an old, friend thus it has always been, and this (or what's left of it) is a valuable role. Its yoke may be relatively easy and its burden light; but it used to be regarded as a requirement in circles whose members were able to do and get just about whatever they wanted, who could easily abandon all responsibility and become prodigal sons. The deal was, "if you want to be and remain part of Society, then you will put yourself under the guidance of the Episcopal Church".
A flock of such headstrong sheep is as prone to straying as any other. And the upper class is no longer distinct enough that a critical mass of Episcopalians remains to make this bargain. This is partly due to the cultural race to the bottom that seems to be an inevitable weakness of democracy: to be admired by a crowd nowadays, all one needs is a fabulous amount of money and glitz. Most of these idols do not bother subscribing to any church or its moral influence. We're all the losers.
[ 13. April 2012, 18:44: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
There is a core of people who desire to worship and who find value in some form of the liturgical tradition... And it might be better to have 500,000 people that genuinely value the church and its mission than to have 5 million, 90% of whom just go because that's what' expected in their social sphere.
And my point all along is that this is happening throughout Christendom in developed countries. What is happening in TEC may be farther along and it may experiencing it more severely for a variety of reasons both within and outside of its control, but this is a religion-wide trend.
If the spiritual outlook of the Millenial generation holds, the U.S. is going to look a lot like post-Christian western Europe in 30 years time, where religion occupies a very small, fringe space in society.
We can flagellate ourselves for not being something we're not, or plan for it in a way that effectively meets the spiritual needs of those who still want to be in that small space.
[ 13. April 2012, 18:49: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I'm comparing apples to apples. Pointing to larger churches in urban areas proves nothing. Compared to other churches in the same area, TEC congregations are still small. I'm interested in how TEC parishes are doing compared to other churches in the same area. TEC parishes aren't doing very well. I've never lived in a place where that wasn't the case. I've never lived in a place where the large, growing church in the area was theologically liberal. Hell, I'd be tickled pink if TEC could manage the same rate of decline as the United Methodist Church or Southern Baptist Church.
Let's assume demographic decline is our problem. I believe the best estimates say it accounts for 70% of decline. This still leaves 30% of other issues such as the ability to retain members. What are we doing to attract people outside our traditional demographic of affluent, white, progressives? What do we really have to offer to those looking for something other than organ music, a social club, and validation of progressive political opinions?
I've seen the advertising we put together. The answer is not very much. TEC can still be a comparatively progressive church without jettisoning every last bit of traditional belief and practice. We have to move back to the middle or we won't have a chance of surviving.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
So what do you do to make it better where you are, BA?
Because I've never chosen to continue going to a church--or stop going to a church--because of what the Grand High Poobahs at National Headquarters of some denomination chose to do or say.
Like politics, it's always been local for me. Even if it shouldn't be, that's usually heavily influenced by the clerics involved. I actually chose to join in a local congregation once because the rector remembered my name when I returned two weeks later for a second visit!
They didn't have the best organ in town. They didn't have a great choir. But there was a sense that my presence was important to someone. I didn't know or care at the time, but that priest (now retired) happens to be theologically liberal, if by that you mean inclusive and progressive. Like most of the Christians I know who consider themselves liberal, though, he doesn't have to cross his fingers when he recites the Creed.
I suspect a lot of ministers and priests would be shocked and horrified if they knew what their parishioners actually believe. Most of them don't choose a church--or a megachurch--because of the theological stance. They choose it because it makes them feel at home.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
I'm comparing apples to apples. Pointing to larger churches in urban areas proves nothing.
This doesn't make sense to me. Again, you seem to be asserting that unless the Episcopal Church has the kind of megachurches the Baptists and non-denoms do we're less healthy as a denomination. I think everyone who has responded to this thinks this is an odd assertion.
A healthy church (IMHO) is one with a balanced age range that is experiencing healthy growth. A church that has achieved 10% growth over a year's time even if it has gone from 200 - 220 people is extremely healthy.
We're not going to have the kind of megachurches the non-denoms or Baptists do. Episcopalians have never made up more than 3% of the U.S. population and we prefer to worship in smaller churches overall.
quote:
I've never lived in a place where the large, growing church in the area was theologically liberal.
I've given several examples and you keep moving the goalposts.
quote:
Hell, I'd be tickled pink if TEC could manage the same rate of decline as the United Methodist Church or Southern Baptist Church.
The UMC has lost 23% of their membership through the same period we lost 32%. Not much to be tickled pink about there. Source:Demographia - Religion membership 1960-2004 The Southern Baptist Convention expects to the 50% smaller by 2030. And that's with the advantage that they often double count their membership. Adherents.com: Anyway you slice it, fewer Southern Baptists
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I don't keep moving the goalposts. You make the point we have our largest churches in places with the most people. Big freaking deal. So does everybody else.
You've provided one example: All Saints Beverly Hills. I'll have to take your word for it. St. Martin's Houston is not the average Episcopal congregation. It is on the conservative fringe. How long before TEC becomes so liberal that St. Martin's and parishes like it decide to leave? I'd imagine the only thing keeping them in now is they are in a conservative diocese and find it easier to ignore the national church than lose their endowment and property leaving.
Like I said, I'd be happy to be in the same situation as the United Methodists and Southern Baptists. They had more people to start and they are losing them a lower rate. Assuming the Southern Baptist Convention continues its current rate of decline and loses half its membership by 2050, they'll still be nearly three times larger than TEC was at its largest. Frankly, I doubt their rate of decline continues. Southern Baptists are better at adapting.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
You make the point we have our largest churches in places with the most people.
Try reading for comprehension next time. That isn't the point I made.
quote:
You've provided one example: All Saints Beverly Hills
Nope. Listed more than one. Try again.
[ 13. April 2012, 20:05: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I'm comparing apples to apples. Pointing to larger churches in urban areas proves nothing. Compared to other churches in the same area, TEC congregations are still small. I'm interested in how TEC parishes are doing compared to other churches in the same area.
I'm interested in how TEC parishes are doing compared to other churches with similar worship standards (if any). Otherwise it's not apples to apples. Show me some of these which are doing significantly better than TEC, and I'll pay attention.
quote:
TEC can still be a comparatively progressive church without jettisoning every last bit of traditional belief and practice.
I agree. But have we? I think that we actually keep more traditions than the brassy megachurches who brag about how conservative they are.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
quote:
You make the point we have our largest churches in places with the most people.
Try reading for comprehension next time. That isn't the point I made.
quote:
You've provided one example: All Saints Beverly Hills
Nope. Listed more than one. Try again.
Yes it was.
No you didn't.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Alogon:
I'm interested in how TEC parishes are doing compared to other churches with similar worship standards (if any). Otherwise it's not apples to apples. Show me some of these which are doing significantly better than TEC, and I'll pay attention.
What worship standards are those?
quote:
originally posted by Alogon:
I agree. But have we? I think that we actually keep more traditions than the brassy megachurches who brag about how conservative they are.
Traditional theology? No we haven't. Tradition as in liturgy? Sort of.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Bee, I know it's fun pitching the end of the world, but for pete's sake things are not that bad.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Then speak to the priests at All Saints Pasadena, or All Saints Beverly Hills...
Surely this appears on everyone's screen?
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
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BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
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Posted
Just to interject more anecdotal evidence, the Diocese of Atlanta has several of the biggest parishes in the church. They are progressive, vibrant, and traditional for the most part. Saint Philip's Cathedral has around 6'000 member I believe.
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
quote:
You make the point we have our largest churches in places with the most people.
Try reading for comprehension next time. That isn't the point I made.
quote:
You've provided one example: All Saints Beverly Hills
Nope. Listed more than one. Try again.
Yes it was.
No you didn't.
This is why it's hard to take you seriously and why I am contemplating calling you for hell because you pretend to engage in serious discussion but then put your fingers in your ears and say la-la-la when people contradict you. Stop bullshitting and either acknowledge that there are exceptions to your assertions or that you don't what to hear what others say.
My post read:
quote:
The TEC has many churches that are growing and thriving as well - both liberal (All Saints, Pasadena and Beverly Hills) and conservative (St. Martin's Houston, etc.) as well as high church and low church. I'm not sure if this represents an increase due to the clustering of people fleeing smaller, deader churches for an experience with more spiritual vitality, or whether they are attracting people from outside the denominational community or probably, a mix of both, but it is happening. To say that all TEC churches are in crisis and dying isn't truer than saying that there isn't a problem at all.
I listed All Saints BV and Pasadena which are 2 parishes. You even acknowledged ASC Pasadena once, for fuck sake.
Secondly, I didn't say that were healthy because they were large, I said they were healthy because they had vital ministries and were growing. I never even mentioned their size. I only picked them because I figured you'd know about them.
Now either read for comprehension or acknowledge that the heat is too much and get out of the fucking kitchen, asshole.
[ 13. April 2012, 20:35: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I think you just need to come down out of panic mode, Beeswax. This is not the first time the Church has gone through a bust cycle, and it won't be the last. Have a little faith.
[ 13. April 2012, 20:43: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
One thing I find a little unnerving in that Episcopal Church trends report is the revelation that churches that add in "nontraditional worship elements" tend to be stronger. I'm not sure what to make of this. Perhaps churches that are more vibrant have more fresh blood and are more comfortable trying out new things. But I can't for the life of me imagine an Episcopal Rite II service with drums or a praise band and a projector. What would such an animal look like?
At the same time, the study notes that the stronger parishes "do liturgy well." Do we have churches with postmodern drum circles and interpretive dance that also do a solid Eucharist according to the Book of Common Prayer?
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Tojours Dan:
I listed All Saints BV and Pasadena which are 2 parishes. You even acknowledged ASC Pasadena once, for fuck sake.
Oh, I'm sorry. You mentioned 2. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:
originally posted by Tojours Dan:
Secondly, I didn't say that were healthy because they were large, I said they were healthy because they had vital ministries and were growing. I never even mentioned their size. I only picked them because I figured you'd know about them.
I don't doubt some episcopal churches mostly in large urban areas are showing modest growth. I'm concerned with the vast majority of Episcopal parishes that aren't. I'm concerned with ministering to a demographic other than just white, affluent, progressives.
Hell, I'd like to serve at a parish that had much of anything to offer people under 55 or was even seriously interested in trying. My wife's parish seemed to believe that because she is young that she should be able to be bring in tons of young families without any effort or inconvenience to them at all. Only so much she can do. She sleeps with me and I would never attend her parish regularly.
Problem is, Tojours Dan, we are coming at this from two different places. I'm sure they'll be an Episcopal parish in New York City with a well done liturgy catering to affluent, educated, progressives where you can worship for the rest of your life and even have a nice funeral. My concerns are broader and longer term than yours.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
So I'll ask again--what are you doing about it where you are?
At this point, I don't even care if you're having any success. You are a priest, and in most Episcopal parishes that still carries a certain cachet. You may not have the respect and power your 19th century predecessors had, but you aren't chopped liver.
You obviously see a problem. Are you trying to do anything to address it? Or are you spending all your time telling us how impossible the whole thing is in this quiet backwater on the internet?
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I don't doubt some episcopal churches mostly in large urban areas are showing modest growth. I'm concerned with the vast majority of Episcopal parishes that aren't. I'm concerned with ministering to a demographic other than just white, affluent, progressives.
Hell, I'd like to serve at a parish that had much of anything to offer people under 55 or was even seriously interested in trying.
The urban parishes are usually the racially and economically diverse ones with a younger crowd, at least in my experience.
Rural parishes tend to be tiny, elderly and demographically stagnant.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Everything I can. I have a relatively committed congregation but they likely don't have the resources or critical mass to survive grow and thrive. They love their building. It's a pretty building but it hinders their growth. Wouldn't matter if they were willing to give it up. They would need to join with other smaller episcopal congregations in the area.
Other smaller congregations in the area are fond of their building. Showing up to a particular old building, at the exact same time on Sunday morning, doing a familiar liturgy with hymns they know by heart, and then drinking coffee with the same people until they die are all very important to many Episcopalians. They give lip service to the church continuing after they die but that's about it. At least, the people interested in left wing politics care about something larger.
Hard to change in a couple of years a mindset that was decades in the making.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I don't doubt some episcopal churches mostly in large urban areas are showing modest growth. I'm concerned with the vast majority of Episcopal parishes that aren't. I'm concerned with ministering to a demographic other than just white, affluent, progressives.
Hell, I'd like to serve at a parish that had much of anything to offer people under 55 or was even seriously interested in trying.
The urban parishes are usually the racially and economically diverse ones with a younger crowd, at least in my experience.
Rural parishes tend to be tiny, elderly and demographically stagnant.
I'm sure there are economically and racially diverse parishes in urban areas. I've seen some that are relatively so myself. This doesn't describe all episcopal churches in urban areas. Far from it. Younger people outside urban areas attend church. I know they do. I've seen them. I've talked to them. Just not episcopal parishes in any large number.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
What worship standards are those?
Let's try BCP MOTR Eucharistic, either Rite I or II, with acolytes who carry the cross down the aisle without weaving like drunkards and know how to assist with ablutions; congregational singing largely from the official hymnal; and a choir that tries to offer classical repertoire at least twice a month.
Or the equivalent in any other denomination.
quote:
Traditional theology? No we haven't. Tradition as in liturgy? Sort of.
We say the Nicene Creed every Sunday, as churches have done for centuries. Our so-wayward bishop insists on it, in fact, and wants an explanation in writing if ever it is omitted. Preaching generally addresses the assigned lections. I can't recall ever being a regular part of an Episcopal congregation where this was not the case. What else do you have in mind along "traditional" lines, and how would you know when you have obtained it?
When a Russian czar long ago decided that his people should have a new religion, he sent emissaries far and wide to visit other lands. They were to inquire first and foremost not what various religions believed, but how they worshiped. Nothing impressed them until they reached Constantinople, and the rites of the Orthodox made them feel as though they were given
a glimpse of heaven. So this became the church that the czar chose. I doubt that you have an objection to that denouement.
"How do you worship?" seems as good a starting point to me as anything else. No doubt a megachurch can attract crowds with cult of personality and glittering weekly productions inspired by Hollywood or Las Vegas, but I'm afraid that the connection to the Christian faith becomes tenuous: like a guttering candle flaring up shortly before it dies out.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Alogon:
Let's try BCP MOTR Eucharistic, either Rite I or II, with acolytes who carry the cross down the aisle without weaving like drunkards and know how to assist with ablutions; congregational singing largely from the official hymnal; and a choir that tries to offer classical repertoire at least twice a month.
You could find all that at about 6 places in my diocese. Maybe a few more depending on how many acolytes are necessary to meet your standard but perhaps a few less depending on how you define the "classical repertoire." Some of the churches who could do all that don't. Some of the churches would like to do that can't afford it.
quote:
originally posted by Alogon:
What else do you have in mind along "traditional" lines, and how would you know when you have obtained it?
In addition to the things I've already mentioned, I'd like to not routinely be in clergy gatherings where at minimum half of the participants have major problems with the Nicene Creed or by their own admission don't believe it to be all that important. Do I really know what they believe? Yep. They say as much. I'd like to participate in clergy bible study where nobody tried to introduce their pet political issue when none of the scriptures remotely addressed anything similar to it. You think I'm exaggerating? Do you think of water conservation on the Feast of the Baptism of Our Lord? I know those who do. Yes, I know...baptism...water...but really?
quote:
originally posted by Alogon:
"How do you worship?" seems as good a starting point to me as anything else. No doubt a megachurch can attract crowds with cult of personality and glittering weekly productions inspired by Hollywood or Las Vegas, but I'm afraid that the connection to the Christian faith becomes tenuous: like a guttering candle flaring up shortly before it dies out.
Yeah because that can't happen with the worship you describe. I note in my copy of the Saint Augustine's Prayer Book the definition of Sentimentality, "Being satisfied with pious feelings and beautiful ceremonies without striving to obey God's will." The member of the Order of the Holy Cross didn't have a glittering production inspired by Hollywood or Las Vegas in mind when he wrote about Sentimentality.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
The denomination you think the Episcopal Church ought to be like doesn't exist, Bee, and won't exist until the last day.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Beeswax, the good ol' St Augie's Prayer Book, of which I have long owned a couple of copies and found them very useful at Mass, can itself be the object of sentimentality, just as can the '28 BCP, all manner of traditional ceremonial, and indeed the whole notion of the "good ol' days in the Episcopal Church" when priests invariably had penises and teh gayz stayed quietly and hypocritically in their places (providing invaluable support without which the Church could hardly have functioned).
Please grow up. The Church ain't in our hands. In my perception, the Episcopal Church is still doing well wherever the people are present for the Eucharist and where the Bishop appears from time to time in their midst, where the Church makes its presence publically felt in its works and witness. Yes, I want things done properly and in order, and for some grasp of the range of sacramental theology in the Anglican patrimony to be taught (along with adherence to the doctrine and discipline of the Episcopal Church in our own day, as by General Convention - the assembled Bishops, representative Clergy and Laity of the whole national Church - established)in our parish churches. However, the Mass is the Mass; and there is but one Baptism into the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Don't be so anxious. All will be well, even,"though with a scornful wonder men see her sore oppressed," still,"she on earth hath union with God the Three in One, and mystic sweet communion with those whose rest is won."
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
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Posted
Thanks for answering the question. And no, the answer wasn't too long.
However, that kind of Episcopal church has been around since I was born, and I doubt it will end anytime soon. Or it might out of lack of growth.
The church I currently belong to started out that way, but gained a new priest who made the decision that the church wasn't going to be stagnant, but it also wasn't going to lose what made it unique. We had bumps and bruises along the way (meaning that we lost people who didn't like the idea of their comfortable little church changing), but now we are on a good path of growth.
What has made the difference is attention to liturgy and attention to outreach programs. We have two assistant priests. One of whom is reaching out to the immigrant community, the other likes wandering the streets to talk to the homeless and working at the homeless shelter. (In fact, there are days I think that if he could simply wander around and talk to people all day he would be ecstatic.)
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
My church back home is going broke maintaining the busiest food pantry in town and has group meetings for various addictions in the parish hall every other night. The priests have never crossed over into questionable orthodoxy in their sermons, and one of them is very active in encouraging greater participation in the parish by young people. It has only a very slow attrition of membership at the moment, though it is between rectors now.
Here in Boston my parish is booming. I think this is chiefly due to the rich life of worship, but the priests are also paragons of orthodoxy (though they could be a bit more Calvinist for my taste). Both of them are willing to preach the doctrines of the faith, and are good at make them accessible to non-theologians.
Both parishes have far fewer members than they did 40 years ago, so I am afraid they fit into the general trend of the rest of the Episcopal Church. But neither of them fit into Godless mold of yours, Beeswax. Neither is going to wink out of existence any time soon. I an confident that, so long as we keep the faith, God will restore the Episcopal Church again.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
Beeswax,
You're want a church that is traditional and orthodox, yet is liberal on Dead Horses? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Believe it or not, CL, not everyone defines "traditional and orthodox" solely as "against the ordination of women and gays."
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Beeswax,
You're want a church that is traditional and orthodox, yet is liberal on Dead Horses?
Yes
Nothing in the Nicene Creed about Dead Horses.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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QuietMBR
Shipmate
# 8845
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
But I can't for the life of me imagine an Episcopal Rite II service with drums or a praise band and a projector. What would such an animal look like?
Come to my parish tomorrow morning at 9:00 and find out.
Posts: 298 | From: Middle Atlantic, USA | Registered: Dec 2004
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Beeswax,
You're want a church that is traditional and orthodox, yet is liberal on Dead Horses?
Yes
Nothing in the Nicene Creed about Dead Horses.
What you're looking for doesn't exist; it never has, and given the hermeneutic in which acceptance of the relevant Dead Horses necessarily exists, never can or will. I can understand, while not agreeing with, your desire and I sympathise that you find yourself in such an invidious position from conscience's point of view.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Well, that resolves every Dead Horse debate ever. Why didn't anyone think of that before? "The position you hold DOESN'T EXIST!"
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Yeah because that can't happen with the worship you describe.
I never said it can't happen or that a liturgy is sufficient. My point is that it is necessary-- specifically, a Eucharistic liturgy (although I realize that Anglicans have disagreed on how often to celebrate it.) You know as well as I do, probably, that the sacraments are part of the Lambeth Quadrilateral, and that the Lambeth Quadrilateral reflects ancient criteria for a completely functioning church.
Hence there is no point in calling a comparison of a churche with these ingredients vs a body lacking a sacramental ministry a comparison of oranges with organges.
[ 14. April 2012, 17:20: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The denomination you think the Episcopal Church ought to be like doesn't exist, Bee, and won't exist until the last day.
I think the Episcopal Church is a lot of things in different places. I'm thankful for the differences in styles and congregations.
My ideal congregation would be a lot like the one I attend right now. It would have a moderately formal liturgy, no EOW, with a traditional choir and no guitars or drums. It wouldn't be Anglo-Catholic or particularly low church, but would instead have a reverent but relaxed form of Rite II (instead of doing the march up to the altar rail for communion, we gather around the altar for Eucharist and there's real bread instead of wafers)
I could do with more adult education opportunities and with fewer "children's sermons" during the month, and they let their kids get a little rambunctious in a side area in the sanctuary. But the most important thing the church has is the feeling of a tight-knit community. The rector remembered me on my second visit. The Peace lasts 5 minutes with people genuinely happy to reconnect. The coffee hours are festive.
It's a congregation that used to have a significantly larger attendance up until eight years ago, when the search committee hired an openly gay rector. They reinvented themselves from a fairly old-school, lily white, traditional worship congregation to a livelier, more diverse, gay-friendly parish. When you walk in you're struck by the fact that it's not overwhelmingly female, and people above 55 are a minority. There are many 30 and 40 something adults without children who regularly attend. They've suffered from a hit to their finances, but through the hard work of a lot of parishioners that love the parish, they're growing again.
Interestingly, they've managed to hang on to a more-or-less traditional liturgy and more-or-less traditional music program, but they still feel fresh and innovative and vibrant.
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